One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

@albertwv ??? Interesting Bias you have against BB Pre TS.

BB scarred Shanks; Who later became a Yonkou; Same Shanks warned WB that Ace would be no match for him; The warning was about BB w/o the Yami Yami fruit.…Same BB who was offered to be a commander of the WBP but always turned it down. The dude who’s been hiding his strength the whole time. Then got the Yami Yami wasn’t YC1…….ok if you believe so

 

[albertwv]

@DeadlyBeast regarding haki during MF, yes it wasn't at 100% shown like Post TS, but nearly all the characters that had it at that time used it. We saw ACoA used by the admirals. We saw ACoO (FS) used by Akainu. we CoC used by Luffy and all of MF acknowledged it. Jozu used CoA against Aokiji. Shanks used CoA against Akainu. Coby unlocked his CoO.
Im not arguing that Ace didn't have haki, even though he never had the chance to use it. But Oda never mentioned that Ace had mastered use of Haki like other YCs.

Ace vs Aokiji, fire vs ice, whatever. His fire wasn't strong enough to penetrate through the ice to harm Aokiji. Aokiji's ice could somehow counter Akainu's magma for 10 days, so what makes you think if Aokiji was serious serious, that his Ice would not be able to defeat Ace?
People use Ace vs Aokiji as a feat for Ace, but in reality after learning about Aokiji vs Akainu, it makes me think Aokiji wasn't being serious against Ace, after all we did see how easily Akainu's magma overwhelmed Ace's fire. So how I see it: Akainu's Magma > Aokiji's Ice > Ace's Fire.

@albertwv ??? Interesting Bias you have against BB Pre TS.

BB scarred Shanks; Who later became a Yonkou; Same Shanks warned WB that Ace would be no match for him; The warning was about BB w/o the Yami Yami fruit.…Same BB who was offered to be a commander of the WBP but always turned it down. The dude who’s been hiding his strength the whole time. Then got the Yami Yami wasn’t YC1…….ok if you believe so

First of, we have NO IDEA when Shanks vs BB. We know Shanks wasn't scarred from the time of Roger's execution (24 years) to Shanks' introduction (12 years). So in between those 12 years Shanks went from being an apprentice to being a world player of bounty of $1 billion. Shanks was not a Yonko 12 years ago when he met Luffy, but he already had the scar.
What I am trying to say is Shanks was building his power like Luffy is and fought Teach and received a scar. This could have happened when Shanks was still considered a rookie or so. It's like imagine if Kuro or Arlong gave Luffy a scar or even Pre TS Lucci. Luffy was significantly weaker back then compared to now. Ironically the one who actually gave him a scar was Akainu, but Teach wasn't no Akainu when he scarred Shanks.

Also, it's never stated if Teach was offered the commander seat, much less multiple times. Ace only asked why BB didn't take the seat. Thats not the same as "was offered but turned it down"

BB killing Thatch, makes it seem like he killed him sneakily, stabbing him in the back or in his sleep. Why? Not because Teach is sneaky (I think he is), but because if BB had killed Thatch in the middle of the day or near others or attacked Thatch head on, well Teach would not have been able to escape WB's ship without getting killed. Thatch (who you say is strong and I believe you) would had given pre-DF BB a high difficulty battle at least. Then had BB managed to kill Thatch, the rest of the crew would have been alerted, WB, Marco, Jozu, Vista and Ace any of them would not have allowed Teach to escape, especially Marco who could fly. I don't think Teach could have taken on any of them head on after killing Thatch.

So how I see it, BB killed Thatch in his sleep and escaped the ship in the middle of the night before the rest of the crew would have noticed.

BB was no way YC1 pre-TS. Not until he got the Gura DF was he stronger. The Gorosei mentioned that Marcos a YC1+ would be able to stop him. As I mentioned before Pre-TS BB with Dark DF was knocked down by a Pre-TS Gear 2 Luffy punch. Would Kata or even Doffy be hit by a Pre-TS Gear 2 punch? No way.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

@DeadlyBeast regarding haki during MF, yes it wasn't at 100% shown like Post TS, but nearly all the characters that had it at that time used it. We saw ACoA used by the admirals. We saw ACoO (FS) used by Akainu. we CoC used by Luffy and all of MF acknowledged it. Jozu used CoA against Aokiji. Shanks used CoA against Akainu. Coby unlocked his CoO.
Im not arguing that Ace didn't have haki, even though he never had the chance to use it. But Oda never mentioned that Ace had mastered use of Haki like other YCs.

Ace vs Aokiji, fire vs ice, whatever. His fire wasn't strong enough to penetrate through the ice to harm Aokiji. Aokiji's ice could somehow counter Akainu's magma for 10 days, so what makes you think if Aokiji was serious serious, that his Ice would not be able to defeat Ace?
People use Ace vs Aokiji as a feat for Ace, but in reality after learning about Aokiji vs Akainu, it makes me think Aokiji wasn't being serious against Ace, after all we did see how easily Akainu's magma overwhelmed Ace's fire. So how I see it: Akainu's Magma > Aokiji's Ice > Ace's Fire.

My point about the haki is that it had little prominence in the actual fighting pre skip so its hard to hold it against a character who didn't get to fight much then. For example Ace fought BB pretty hard and both were exhausted by the end of it. There was a lot of physical hits tradeded between them. We know for sure that BB has CoA and he already commented on haki pre skip. So you telling me Ace survived that entire battle without haki?

Think about the degree of use of even CoC post timeskip where it is far more frequent and actual component of battle. At Marineford we had many CoC users present and fighting the "war of the best" yet there was only one character who used CoC during the battle and it was Luffy of all people. We know Ace is a confirmed user and see how he improves in his haki use in One Piece Novel A which is canon. I don't think there is anything to suggest that Ace doesn't have basic haki skills that match other YC level fighters.

On the Ace/Aokiji/Akainu thing, to me I've always viewed it as a dynamic of fruit powers. Ace and Aokiji have similar but polar opposite powers which is different than having powers that have order of superiority over each other which is the case between Ace and Akainu. Fire Fire fruit and Ice Ice fruit are on the same level and just have powers that are reverse of each other. Fire Fire and Magma Magma are not on the same level with Magma Magma having a superior heat/attack power.

 

[Fox666]

Akainu's Magma > Aokiji's Ice > Ace's Fire.

That's not how elemental spells work

 

[albertwv]

My point about the haki is that it had little prominence in the actual fighting pre skip so its hard to hold it against a character who didn't get to fight much then. For example Ace fought BB pretty hard and both were exhausted by the end of it. There was a lot of physical hits tradeded between them. We know for sure that BB has CoA and he already commented on haki pre skip. So you telling me Ace survived that entire battle without haki?

Think about the degree of use of even CoC post timeskip where it is far more frequent and actual component of battle. At Marineford we had many CoC users present and fighting the "war of the best" yet there was only one character who used CoC during the battle and it was Luffy of all people. We know Ace is a confirmed user and see how he improves in his haki use in One Piece Novel A which is canon. I don't think there is anything to suggest that Ace doesn't have basic haki skills that match other YC level fighters.

On the Ace/Aokiji/Akainu thing, to me I've always viewed it as a dynamic of fruit powers. Ace and Aokiji have similar but polar opposite powers which is different than having powers that have order of superiority over each other which is the case between Ace and Akainu. Fire Fire fruit and Ice Ice fruit are on the same level and just have powers that are reverse of each other. Fire Fire and Magma Magma are not on the same level with Magma Magma having a superior heat/attack power.

Yes BB vs Ace, there was no Haki used or shown during the battle on screen. I think the point of that fight was too show off BB's new Dark DF and how it could suck the DF power from the DF users. BB didn't need Haki to defeat Ace in that battle as his Dark DF was enough.
Not saying they didn't have Haki, but no proof showing they had used it during the battle.

While there were many CoC users (WB, Hancock, Luffy, DD, Sengoku, Ace, Shanks), only Hancock and Luffy used it and for both it was something emotional. Luffy wasn't even aware and Hancock only used it due to being pissed off at Smoker for hurting Luffy but otherwise she didn't use her CoC.

There is nothing that suggests that Ace's haki matches other YC level fighters. We know that among YC's basic CoA and CoO have different levels, even before their Advanced form. Such as Cracker's CoA seems to be stronger than Luffy's and Doffy's at the time. We also saw how Kata's CoA was greater than Luffy's CoA. Therefore, in terms of CoA for YC's Kata > Cracker > WCI/Dressrosa Luffy > Doffy.
I wish we had seen more of Ace's haki but Oda in his infinite wisdom decided not to.

But until we see more feats of Ace, will I place him as a YC1, but for the time being with what we have seen on screen it does not seem like he is YC1. I just don't see him matching up to Kata or King, or defeating Doffy.

That's not how elemental spells work

Cool, these are not "elemental spells".
Noticed how I mentioned "Akainu's Magma" "Aokiji's Ice" and "Ace's Fire" . They are not your typical nature elements because they are added and manipulated by the user who may use Haki to strengthen their elemental attacks.
There's no way Aokiji's ice could have lasted 10 days fighting Akainu's magma without the use of Haki. We saw how Akainu's magma melted the huge Ice Rock that Jozu threw, that Aokiji's Ice had created.
If we went by regular normal human logic then Aokiji should have never been able to fight Akainu for 10 days since Magma >>>>>> Ice.
But this is OP.

 

[Fox666]

If we went by regular normal human logic then Aokiji should have never been able to fight Akainu for 10 days since Magma >>>>>> Ice.
But this is OP.

 

[XXGenesis]

I’m not super into the timeline surrounding this event; But a google search wasn’t hard.

BB/Shanks are 1 year apart in age.
Shanks was 14 when the Roger Pirates disbanded.
Shanks dialogue with WhiteBeard gives enough details that the event occurred later into Shanks career before his earliest debut in the story line; Raiding a CP0 ship for the Nika Nika…..So this was the famous Shanks who use to duel with Mihawk. Shanks later becomes a yonko…While Blackbeard was hiding his true power.

I don’t understand how BB can be underestimated, or his feats not be sufficient enough for you. Enduring attacks from Sengoku & WB…idk how a non level YC do that. Or hit so hard above their level

 

[Pirate Queen]

I’m not super into the timeline surrounding this event; But a google search wasn’t hard.

BB/Shanks are 1 year apart in age.
Shanks was 14 when the Roger Pirates disbanded.
Shanks dialogue with WhiteBeard gives enough details that the event occurred later into Shanks career before his earliest debut in the story line; Raiding a CP0 ship for the Nika Nika…..So this was the famous Shanks who use to duel with Mihawk. Shanks later becomes a yonko…While Blackbeard was hiding his true power.

I don’t understand how BB can be underestimated, or his feats not be sufficient enough for you. Enduring attacks from Sengoku & WB…idk how a non level YC do that. Or hit so hard above their level

Also, BB scarred Shanks which is a feat even Mihawk can't claim... which speaks for itself

 

[LadyVados]

That being said Marco wasn’t even damaged, he was low on stamina; Easily showing 1 vs 1 Marco would have beaten either King/Queen.

That’s how you beat Marco.

Nah King >= Marco.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Beckman>Marco>Katakuri>=King

As far as OG YC1 go. By hype and feats

My opinion of course(backed by fact)

 

[john ellis]

as a scientist this is a poor representation of what happens, in equal mass the magma would always melt the ice. You have a small magma mass that is melting 2-3 times the amount of ice maths

 

[Fox666]

as a scientist this is a poor representation of what happens, in equal mass the magma would always melt the ice. You have a small magma mass that is melting 2-3 times the amount of ice maths

Aokiji can freeze the entire ocean

Did Akainu created an equal amount of magma?

 

[kkck]

Ace is a really tough fighter to place in any tier. He got defeated by BB whose feats in the story are all over the place. What we have is this:

Ace:
1.- Ace basically tied with jinbe before joining the WB pirates.
2.- When ace just joined the WB pirates he was unable to deal any type of damage to WB. In hindsight this is pretty in line with how kaido and big mom were night invulnerable and probably gives more context to the scene with squardo backstabbing WB.
3.- Through fighting WB ace became stronger and got to the point where he could cause non zero damage to WB.
4.- Ace at some point fought seemingly evenly with yamato.

BB:
1.- Killed thatch, a yonko commander.
2.- Gave shanks a scar at some point.
3.- Defeated ace, though the fight didn't seem one sided per se what we saw does suggest some leeway for BB.
4.- Got owned by magellan, though in fairness magellan's power is probably effective regardless of power levels.
5.- He fought sengoku with his crew.

Now, ace became stronger than jinbe, perhaps substantially so. WB's top 3 (marco, jozu and vista) seem to pose an actual threat to admirals with the current context suggesting this isn't the case for the now former top 3 yonko commanders around (calamities and sweet commanders). With that in mind it's probable that ace wasn't quite on the level with marco, jozu and vista while he was probably in the ballpark of the calamities and sweet commanders.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Ace is a really tough fighter to place in any tier. He got defeated by BB whose feats in the story are all over the place. What we have is this:

Ace:
1.- Ace basically tied with jinbe before joining the WB pirates.
2.- When ace just joined the WB pirates he was unable to deal any type of damage to WB. In hindsight this is pretty in line with how kaido and big mom were night invulnerable and probably gives more context to the scene with squardo backstabbing WB.
3.- Through fighting WB ace became stronger and got to the point where he could cause non zero damage to WB.
4.- Ace at some point fought seemingly evenly with yamato.

BB:
1.- Killed thatch, a yonko commander.
2.- Gave shanks a scar at some point.
3.- Defeated ace, though the fight didn't seem one sided per se what we saw does suggest some leeway for BB.
4.- Got owned by magellan, though in fairness magellan's power is probably effective regardless of power levels.
5.- He fought sengoku with his crew.

Now, ace became stronger than jinbe, perhaps substantially so. WB's top 3 (marco, jozu and vista) seem to pose an actual threat to admirals with the current context suggesting this isn't the case for the now former top 3 yonko commanders around (calamities and sweet commanders). With that in mind it's probable that ace wasn't quite on the level with marco, jozu and vista while he was probably in the ballpark of the calamities and sweet commanders.

This is a really good take on Ace. He gets underestimated a lot due to only existing pre-skip but the people he was comparable to pre-skip are all YC level fighters now. Unless one is willing to make the argument that all these people were not YC level fighters during Marineford and have only grown to that level since we have to accept the fact Ace is YC level fighter.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2023 ---

as a scientist this is a poor representation of what happens, in equal mass the magma would always melt the ice. You have a small magma mass that is melting 2-3 times the amount of ice maths

The point is that fire/heat/magma vs ice/cold/snow abilities does not have any default superiority on each other. Depending on the level one side can come out on top, in the case of the video the ice survives due to being more mass (if this was ice made of something that isn't water could have turned out differently).

In Aokiji's case his DF power is Chill Chill fruit not Ice Ice fruit. Aokiji's innate ability is to lower the temperature of things and freeze them so this applies to anything not just water. Similarly Akainu's power is Magma Magma where magma is an actual physical substance that can be made up of many mixtures of rocks & metals.

A similar take of the video on Aokiji vs Akainu is replacing Aokiji with Akainu during WB's tsunami. A lot of people in the past argued that only Aokiji could stop it by freezing the waves. However, in theory Akainu could also have just vaporized the tsunami's with the heat from his power too.

 

[Fox666]

Blackbeard's power is inconsistent

Weaker:
- Ace got the best of him at the beginning of the fight
- Got hit by Luffy
- The Blackbeard Pirates were almost killed by Magellan
- Was humiliated by Whitebeard, and his crew ganged up on Whitebeard
- Ran away from Akainu

Stronger:
- Scarred Shanks, who by his own admission was not caught off-guard
- Killed one of Whitebeard commanders
- Defeated Ace
- Shiryu, who is said to be equal to Magellan, accepted to be part of his crew
- The Blackbeard Pirates fought against both Sengoku and Garp, and Sengoku was injured by the end of the war
- Defeated Marco and the remainder for the Whitebeard Pirates
- Hancock didn't stood a chance against Blackbeard

Of course the real reason is because Blackbeard is two people, and his hidden parasite twin is Yonko level and once he takes over he crushes his opponents

 

[XXGenesis]

That’s how you beat Marco.

Nah King >= Marco.

That doesn’t make sense. Seeing how long it took 2 commanders to wear out 1….Obviously the single commander is a stronger individual than the duo.

Not to mention Marco still had stamina left. He was just really tired. Marco still protected Zoro from King’s attack..& Nami & co from A Boro Blast…Marco.

YC1 wouldn’t make Big Mom use up souls. Only a YC1+ would

 

[HereNThere]

Blackbeard's power is inconsistent

I'd say he's been rather consistent. After his initial flubs, he always bounces back and gets his W. And those flubs are not because he's weak, but because he's a character we are consistently told is both arrogant and careless. Whitebeard basically laid it straight out during their scuffle.

• Despite Ace having the upper hand at the start, he quickly overtook Ace and kept that momentum for the entire fight.
• Jinbe pretty much saved Luffy from being trashed by BB.
• Shiryu chided him for underestimating Magellan. Given that the crew didn't have a repeat situation of their first round, I'd say they took him more seriously later.
• Already mentioned WB, but to get a bit more detail, BB, despite having WB in hand and nullifying his ability, decided to gloat about his Yami Yamo no Mi rather than follow up his attack in any meaningful way, thus allowing WB to counter him and tell him about his weaknesses.
• Ain't no real shame in running away from Akainu. It was actually a smarter move as it was careless of him to just expect the Marines to give him a battleship.

 

[kkck]

This is a really good take on Ace. He gets underestimated a lot due to only existing pre-skip but the people he was comparable to pre-skip are all YC level fighters now. Unless one is willing to make the argument that all these people were not YC level fighters during Marineford and have only grown to that level since we have to accept the fact Ace is YC level fighter.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2023 ---

I think the key issue here is whether top yonko commanders are or not equal to one another. As in, marco-jozu-vista vs calamities vs sweet commanders. At least on my end I would have originally thought that these forces necessarily had to be comparable in large part because yonko crew structures seemed comparable. On account of them all having an implied or stated top 3 and a series of other commanders that followed. However understated WB's commanders have a rather impressive seat of feats which does seem to suggest they are ahead of anything kaido or big mom had.

1.- Marco and jozu did hold back and repelled admirals.
2.- Vista stalled mihawk and mihawk even respected vista's strength, acknowledging that only a fool wouldn't know him. This is a MASSIVE compliment.
3.- We know the WB pirates and roger pirates fought a number of times. But at this point in time marco and jozu were children far removed from their realized potential. So who the heck was the WB's pirate answer to rayleigh, bronce and whichever other monster they had at the time? At the time of course oden would have been an asset but that still leaves the WB pirates short. Vista was older than marco and vista but probably not quite at his prime yet. As far as I can tell the more veteran members of the crew at that point would have been Fossa or rakuyo... not sure who else stands out. But imagine if back in the day WB had people that could go toe to toe with rayleigh.
4.- Big mom thought katakuri was shit. Which is a reasonable opinion but it is still impressive she thought that.
5.- Big mom actually respected marco and acknowledged his strength. Marco did in fact succeed in at least repelling an attack from big mom.
6.- Marco was thought of as someone that could potentially stop BB. At this point in time this is as close as you can get to being considered a yonko candidate.
7.- marco was more than a match to both king and queen. He would obviously solo either, perhaps without that much difficulty.

If you consider WB's commanders to be ahead of the curve, perhaps substantially so, when it comes to yonko commanders then placing ace is easier. Ace being in the ballpark of calamities or sweet commanders is consistent with someone that could potentially cause an actual injury to a yonko.

 

[john ellis]

This is a really good take on Ace. He gets underestimated a lot due to only existing pre-skip but the people he was comparable to pre-skip are all YC level fighters now. Unless one is willing to make the argument that all these people were not YC level fighters during Marineford and have only grown to that level since we have to accept the fact Ace is YC level fighter.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2023 ---

The point is that fire/heat/magma vs ice/cold/snow abilities does not have any default superiority on each other. Depending on the level one side can come out on top, in the case of the video the ice survives due to being more mass (if this was ice made of something that isn't water could have turned out differently).

In Aokiji's case his DF power is Chill Chill fruit not Ice Ice fruit. Aokiji's innate ability is to lower the temperature of things and freeze them so this applies to anything not just water. Similarly Akainu's power is Magma Magma where magma is an actual physical substance that can be made up of many mixtures of rocks & metals.

A similar take of the video on Aokiji vs Akainu is replacing Aokiji with Akainu during WB's tsunami. A lot of people in the past argued that only Aokiji could stop it by freezing the waves. However, in theory Akainu could also have just vaporized the tsunami's with the heat from his power too.

But that’s not true, that’s not how heat exchanger works.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

But that’s not true, that’s not how heat exchanger works.

If you're talking about the video okay sure.

If you're talking about Aokiji vs Akainu then my question is how is it not true? Can you elaborate I'm honestly curious