One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Fox666]

You want to know WHY King was forced to use his speed mode?
Because of this page:

Spoiler

King is no longer invulnerable in his defence mode, KoH Zoro is capable of damaging him. Which is why he is blocking and avoiding, with Zoro tautning him. So he wanted to use speed to his advantage - to try blitz, to create distance between them, etc.
Why exclusively stay in defence mode, when that no longer offers him invulnerability?

Even with ACoC, Zoro could only hit King in attack mode:

Spoiler

I think when King said Zoro attacks had no effect, he's talking about his Ancient Zoan durability. Zoro did hit King a few times before, but it had little effect.

And when Zoro says King is blocking now, that includes King's defense mode.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2023 ---

Zoro's armament haki is on a completely different tier.

Look at what all he managed in rooftop.
BM sensed so much armament haki in his sword that she asked Kaido to dodge. His advanced armament haki even blocked hakai for a duration of time and partially deflected it.

I don't think Zoro used Enma to shield himself from the explosion.

 

[grey matter]

Even with ACoC, Zoro could only hit King in attack mode:

Spoiler

I think when King said Zoro attacks had no effect, he's talking about his Ancient Zoan durability. Zoro did hit King a few times before, but it had little effect.

Why post panels before that page dude?
Obviously Zoro couldn't have know he could damage King's defence mode, he was going by prior info that he had on defence/speed mode.

It was only at the end that Zoro realizes that he could damage King's defence mode also, because King started blocking and avoiding. Implication is obvious:
- KoH advanced conqueror's Zoro can damage King's defence mode
- advanced armament Zoro cannot damage King's defence mode


Ancient Zoan durability is completely irrelevant here, why are you even bringing this up?
Zoro can cut Kaido's mythical dragons skin, ancient dino skin is nothing for him. It was King's lunarian durability that gave Zoro trouble, not dino powers.

I don't think Zoro used Enma to shield himself from the explosion.

He used full body haki.

Why is Enma relevant here?
Oh no, not the "Enma haki" again I hope. Enma doesn't have haki, it takes haki from Zoro, always was.

At this point you should know that it basically was just a training tool for Zoro, that's it.
Zoro's armament haki grew substantially in the 2-3 weeks he trained with it. Enma also allowed Zoro to learn advanced conqueror's haki quickly.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Remember when Zoro was about to lose to King and suddenly Zoro heard Hiyori playing the Shimasin and Enma activated upon hearing it?

Strange that a sword would activate upon hearing its former wielders daughter playing a song. ALL ON ITS OWN, strange. Swords don't have ears... so how did Enma.... no... no it can't be...

Some training tool. Wish I had one of those. Pretty cool.

I guess the King vs Katakuri ran its course. I'll be back when it picks back up again in a few months... like always

 

[XXGenesis]

I Always thought the Lunarian Invulnerability & the Dialogue between Zoro & King was so confusing.

But it’s clear now Oda has turned Zoro into a dunce. Aside from attacking when their flames are off. ACoC more than likely is effective against them. This will be figured out in egghead soon.

During Zoro’s fight with King. He just happened to figure out King’s ability didn’t care about his race because Zoro doesn’t know about his race; While Also happening to unlock the offensive power needed to counter it all together.

@grey matter You summed it up perfectly.

 

[grey matter]

I Always thought the Lunarian Invulnerability & the Dialogue between Zoro & King was so confusing.

But it’s clear now Oda has turned Zoro into a dunce. Aside from attacking when their flames are off. ACoC more than likely is effective against them. This will be figured out in egghead soon.

During Zoro’s fight with King. He just happened to figure out King’s ability didn’t care about his race because Zoro doesn’t know about his race; While Also happening to unlock the offensive power needed to counter it all together.

@grey matter You summed it up perfectly.

The issue is King vs Zoro was WAY too rushed.

Oda rushed it so much that it negatively affected the fight and choreography.

We were initially lead to believe that finding about King's species was important for the fight. Zoro was never the type who cared about such thought processes, but Oda simply used him to convey to us (the readers) that King's species is important. Basically.....a narrative tool.

Then, Zoro found about this OFF SCREEN. Top tier writing from LOda


Anyway, IMO this is the most logical way to interpret this fight, sequentially going over the events:
- Zoro cannot damage King's defence mode with his advanced armament haki
- King even blows himself up in a giant explosion, takes no damage
- These feats lead Zoro to believe King was invincible
- Zoro awakens advanced conqueror's haki and gains KoH mode
- King becomes wary of Zoro, since he knows he can be damaged in defence mode. This part is important, only King knows it at this point
- King uses speed mode off-screen (LOda lmao), since defence mode can be damaged anyway so no point in staying in defence mode forever.
- Zoro notices he becomes super fast but his defences fall. This part is also important, since at this point Zoro only knows the defence/speed mode mechanics, but he still doesn't know that King's defence mode can be damaged with his KoH ACoC
- King uses speed mode again to try and overwhelm Zoro with speed,
- Zoro uses that opportunity to strike King again
- King is fighting in defence mode, blocks and avoid Zoro's attacks
- Zoro now notices and realizes that King's defence mode is no longer invulnerable. Taunts King
- Finisher exchange, end of fight.


There was this long stream from Morj recently, going over King vs Zoro fight cause he was also confused about Lunarian durability.
He finds Zoro's initial claim of "attacking him when flames on is usless" is contradictory with what happens in a later page where King is blocking and avoiding hits from Zoro, with Zoro taunting him.
Basically that, this page and narrative reason for Zoro awakening Advanced conqueror's haki is void, if King is truly invulnerable in when flames are on.
The fight is a quite confusing, because Oda rushed it too much.


Yeah, Zoro turning into a negative IQ dunce is simply for plot purposes again.
Somehow he didn't realize that Seraphim looked like King until last chapter, and it gets played off for a gag.
Somehow he forgets that King was blocking and avoiding KoH Zoro, with Zoro even realizing the implication and taunting him.


It is simply CIS that Oda pulls for buying time for Saturn and Kizaru to arrive. There is simply no logical reason why Luffy and Zoro haven't used their advanced conqueror's haki yet.

 

[I Am Atomic]

We have seen this many times already.

The bias being so much is the reason why I have slowly reduced engaging, it's pointless.

Ngl, but calling this discussion pointless because we do not agree with your opinion is not healthy for the discussion is it? and what bias? if anything, isn't it King's side have more biased points than Katakuri? making up shit that doesn't happen in the manga? I have already addressed this above.

Me and couple of users said "Kata wins extreme diff"
You and others said "King wins (forgot the diff)" - this is fine because I respect your opinion!

End of story bro. They are both YC1 in their own respective crew. All fights against each other will be extreme diff imo. Can go either way, but I just side with Katakuri. Simple as that.

 

[Nie Li]

Why is Enma relevant here?
Oh no, not the "Enma haki" again I hope. Enma doesn't have haki, it takes haki from Zoro, always was.

At this point you should know that it basically was just a training tool for Zoro, that's it.
Zoro's armament haki grew substantially in the 2-3 weeks he trained with it. Enma also allowed Zoro to learn advanced conqueror's haki quickly.

100%. If only this had been explicitly explained and shown twice, and consistently so throughout the whole Onigashima... oh, wait, it was. It doesn't add any power to Zoro, it just forced him to learn aCoC or die.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2023 ---

King side's argument is: Always Fly, Flame mode on at all times, spam explosions and AoE full time
Forgets that's not how King fought against Zoro!

To be fair, my analysis from the other day didn't mention those points. At most the AoE one as something that could mess with Katakuri rather easily.

 

[LadyVados]

I find it weird to compare Pica to a Yonko commander.

It was blatantly obvious in Dressrosa arc that Doflamingo was the only one at commander-level, and there was an abyss between him and his top executives, who were easily defeated.

I’m not saying Pica > Kata or Jack.

Just that they have never shown the AP to literally cleave a mountain in half.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2023 ---

1 - Could you please share a picture of Chinjao blown away by Pica?
2 - Chinjao may have fought Garp, but he was defeated by Luffy without Gear 4.


I don't think King was implied to be capable of one-shotting a commander-level characters, or to be almost impossible to dodge, akin to Thunder Bagua.

He’s been damaged my much less. Kata was damaged by kicks from Base Luffy. Beak attack destroyed a significant portion of Onigashima.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023 ---

Remember when Zoro was about to lose to King and suddenly Zoro heard Hiyori playing the Shimasin and Enma activated upon hearing it?

Strange that a sword would activate upon hearing its former wielders daughter playing a song. ALL ON ITS OWN, strange. Swords don't have ears... so how did Enma.... no... no it can't be...

Some training tool. Wish I had one of those. Pretty cool.

I guess the King vs Katakuri ran its course. I'll be back when it picks back up again in a few months... like always

Luffy fans and law fans are never allowed to criticise Zoro for Enma since their faves have something 1 million times as broken.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023 ---

simply fighting shouldn't be a feat lol. you can fight someone and stand no chance

He witnessed Prime Garp’s power.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023 ---

They are both YC1 in their own respective crew. All fights against each other will be extreme diff imo.

This is so dumb. Just because people have the same rank they are equal now ?

 

[I Am Atomic]

You do realize that 99% of King's panels were with him in his flame on mode, right?
In fact until the final chapter, we didn't even know that King could turn off his flames behind him.

Spoiler: King flame mode off before final chapter

There is another page. Chapter 1033 page 11 in my app, where King uses Imperial Slings and Arrows attack against Zoro (sorry couldn't find link).

 

[grey matter]

Ngl, but calling this discussion pointless because we do not agree with your opinion is not healthy for the discussion is it? and what bias? if anything, isn't it King's side have more biased points than Katakuri? making up shit that doesn't happen in the manga? I have already addressed this above.

Me and couple of users said "Kata wins extreme diff"
You and others said "King wins (forgot the diff)" - this is fine because I respect your opinion!

End of story bro. They are both YC1 in their own respective crew. All fights against each other will be extreme diff imo. Can go either way, but I just side with Katakuri. Simple as that.

Nah, I say it's pointless because you guys don't argue with feats at all. and rely on headcanon portrayal of YC1s somehow all being relative.
Inspite of the difference in what Marco and King accomplished, vs what Katakuri did. In spite of how much hype Ben and Shiryuu has.


Look at what happened to pre Udon Luffy who can stalemate Katakuri. Got blitz and one shot by base Kaido.
Even if I can give benefit of the doubt and argue the one shot was an outlier (my mistake for being fair here), the portrayal/narrative was that Luffy an absolute fodder for Kaido.

Look at the powercreep between pre Udon and post Udon luffy.
Pre Udon Luffy was seen as an irrelevant insect by Kaido.
Just one hit from rooftop Luffy made Kaido think "what changed between Udon and now" and gave him vision of his "top 5".

Look at what all rooftop Zoro accomplished. He had so much haki emanating from his swords that it gave BM a shock & asked Kaido to dodge, made Kaido dodge, a dragon twister from him injured Kaido and got Kaido start remembering "Oden's haki" (when in fact it's just Zoro's haki), blocked and partially deflected Hakai.
Kaido especially acknowledged Luffy, Zoro and Law post rooftop. Said they could've conquerored the world if they joined up.

It's giga downplay to suggest rooftop Zoro is weaker than pre Udon Luffy

Now look at what King did to rooftop Zoro.

Put these together.

End of story bro. They are both YC1 in their own respective crew. All fights against each other will be extreme diff imo. Can go either way, but I just side with Katakuri. Simple as that.

By that logic:
Ben Beckman ~ Zoro ~ Shiryuu ~ King ~ Marco ~ Katakuri

What kind of logic is this man?

This logic is simply demonstrably false.

Spoiler: King flame mode off before final chapter

There is another page. Chapter 1033 page 11 in my app, where King uses Imperial Slings and Arrows attack against Zoro (sorry couldn't find link).

Ok, you are right here about King never using speed mode before 1025.

I would argue that the panel post shishisonson is in flame on mode, since he had it just the panel before that. That is Oda not drawing due to clutter, he did the same to S-Shark getting hit by Nami too, he had flames on just before and after getting hit, but didn't have it the moment Zeus went through him.

But yeah, panel flying slashes is clearly in speed mode. No arguing with that

Overall point still stands that vast vast majority of King's panels were him in his defence mode.
That is the mode he uses even when he is passively standing. It's his default mode

 

[Nie Li]

Spoiler: King flame mode off before final chapter

There is another page. Chapter 1033 page 11 in my app, where King uses Imperial Slings and Arrows attack against Zoro (sorry couldn't find link).

Those last pages address where I disagree with grey matter (even if both of us are defending King's supremacy).

Until Zoro learnt to wield aCoC at will, Zoro couldn't injure flame-off King even with a direct hit of a classic finisher of his, which is why I always argue that some very high attack potency is needed to take King down even if you can hit him flame-off: multiple aCoC slashes (or a full KoH technique hit that seems to be well above a normal aCoC slash).

I always interpreted that panel as smoke coming out of the surface of King's body (it's not the first time Oda has drawn something like this, it's to show it was a strong impact just to then reveal there was no damage when the smoke fades). King's durability, flame-off, is still top-tier.

This discussion on the forum the other day started with someone saying Katakuri would mop the floor with King as soon as he went speed mode. Well, that he would win "gg ez", and that's definitely not the case.


In the end, my summary of how likely each is to win is:
- King: Needs to mess with CoO with AoEs, and can rush him through his attacks to blow himself up near him. As soon as he gets him once he's guarantee a win.
- Katakuri: Needs to endure with full focus for a long time and wear King down with his strongest attacks for a long time (his punches don't scale to aCoC slashes) while maintaining his distance. And we're talking about wearing down an ancient zoan user.

It's Katakuri who would benefit from a long-range fight, not King.


Katakuri can win, but to me the difficulty and effort needed is, on paper, much greater and risky.

Regardless of my interpretation, we all know Oda can then write however he wants. I do hope we will se a bit more of both of them when shit hits the fan in the future. I did like both characters the most out of their respective crews.

 

[grey matter]

100%. If only this had been explicitly explained and shown twice, and consistently so throughout the whole Onigashima... oh, wait, it was. It doesn't add any power to Zoro, it just forced him to learn aCoC or die.

It is absolutely ridiculous that "Enma haki" cope is still going on lmao.

The mask guy (forgot his name) explained in the chapter zoro got Enma itself - It is a greedy sword that sucks out more haki than intended.
That's it really, it takes out haki from the swordsman himself and if he's weak he's toast.

It basically just acted as a training tool for Zoro to improve his armament haki over the 2-3 week training perior, and ultimately to make him learn advanced conqueror's haki.

It makes narrative sense too. This sword was used to prime Oden level haki, and by it's nature won't be satisfied by any less haki.
To "tame" it, you need to give both armament and conqueror's haki comparable to what Oden gave it, which was what Zoro said in chapter 1033.

"So Oden was giving you this much haki all the time huh?"
Right before taming Enma finally.

This is also why Zoro was on a haki timer. Because he doesn't have Oden level haki yet, and is new to conqueror's haki.
So he is straining himself to maintain the haki output that Oden could do without strain for an unspecified duration.

 

[I Am Atomic]

It's giga downplay to suggest rooftop Zoro is weaker than pre Udon Luffy

I see your point but that is more to due to writing imo. If we use the same logic, then Killer is also stronger than pre Udon Luffy? Killer was able to do more to Kaido than Luffy could in the initial encounter? I side with the scene being an outlier just for hype.

By that logic:
Ben Beckman ~ Zoro ~ Shiryuu ~ King ~ Marco ~ Katakuri

What kind of logic is this man?

This logic is simply demonstrably false.

Ben Beckman is the only one's strength are not aware of. The rest are all on the same tier. I know Marco was able to hold down both King and Queen but that was just temporary and came at a cost (his fruit allowed him to do that).

Overall point still stands that vast vast majority of King's panels were him in his defence mode.
That is the mode he uses even when he is passively standing. It's his default mode

So, basically King will turn off his flame mode when he fights at one point or another. It's more common than what has been discussed. That will be enough for Katakuri to damage

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2023 ---

Katakuri can win, but to me the difficulty and effort needed is, on paper, much greater and risky.

This is all I am trying to discuss. Both can win. The probability depends on how each person looks at it.
I just think Kata wins extreme difficulty (my opinion). Obviously I am fine with King supporters saying King would win whatever difficulty it is

 

[grey matter]

I see your point but that is more to due to writing imo. If we use the same logic, then Killer is also stronger than pre Udon Luffy? Killer was able to do more to Kaido than Luffy could in the initial encounter? I side with the scene being an outlier just for hype.

Killer didn't get the same hype tho? If we look at entire rooftop standalone, it was Luffy and Zoro who appeared the most impressive.
Killer managed to damage Kaido through a specific technique, but basically was hit only once by BM. He didn't take an advanced conqueror's attack IIRC.

Anyway, Killer is massively underrated by the community. He is at least Queen/Smoothie level IMO

Like I said, I can even agree that the "one shot" itself was an outlier.
But the portrayal/narrative is still there. The narrative was that pre Udon Luffy is an insect to Kaido, while rooftop Luffy could at least give Kaido a low diff. The growth/power-creep was so high that Kaido himself wondered "what changed since then"

Rooftop Luffy is going to mid-high diff pre Udon Luffy, even if we ignore the one shot as outlier and think only based on the powerups itself that Luffy got.

Ben Beckman is the only one's strength are not aware of. The rest are all on the same tier. I know Marco was able to hold down both King and Queen but that was just temporary and came at a cost (his fruit allowed him to do that).

What?

Current fresh Zoro will mid-high diff King.
They are clearly not in same tier.

Shiryuu pre DF was equal to Magellan. And Magellan was someone who had monstrous portrayal in ID, with all prisoners (including Jinbe and Crocodile) collectively running from him, low diff'd Ivankov.

Marco got feats against Kizaru, an admiral. Was seen as a potential Yonko candidate by Gorosei.
Marco fought BM for almost the same duration of scabbards vs Kaido (it was mostly offscreen), had BM admit that she would need to put actual effort to deal with him and can't afford to waste energy/souls on him.
He then went onto spend energy healing the entire floor, and then was on offensive against both King and Queen in the duration of rooftop fight.

To suggest these guys are in same tier as Katakuri......what is this?
Current Sanji honestly beats Katakuri, forget Zoro.

So, basically King will turn off his flame mode when he fights at one point or another. It's more common than what has been discussed. That will be enough for Katakuri to damage

What we are arguing is that King can choose to not turn off his flames.
Then what? From what we have seen so far, King has showed zero strain in maintaining his flame on mode. In fact, that is his default mode even when he's passively standing. Nothing yet suggests that there is some time limit here, but things can change in the future.

And even flame off King was able to clash with rooftop Zoro, and face tanked couple of named attacks from KoH advanced conqueror's Zoro. He is still an ancient dinosaur Zoan.
Even flame off King will need considerable effort from Katakuri to put down, while his mode gives King speed that goes "invisible" from Zoro's eyes.

Katakuri can win, but to me the difficulty and effort needed is, on paper, much greater and risky.

Regardless of my interpretation, we all know Oda can then write however he wants. I do hope we will se a bit more of both of them when shit hits the fan in the future. I did like both characters the most out of their respective crews.

Honestly, the only way this can even become a debate is if Katakuri's power level gets a Crocodile style retcon. That is how outdated his feats are.....

I still haven't seen a solid argument in this topic from Katakuri side, other than "he is a YC1 too"
When some of the "YC1" guys are demonstrably in other tiers all together.

I simply can't imagine someone of pre Udon Luffy tier vs King being debatable, given how King was basically mid-high diffing rooftop Zoro.

 

[Rein Avara]

What is this baseless crocodile style retcon people you keep bringing up? When was crocodile retconned? We've not seen him fight at all besides the one scene of him going to save Buggy but those just appear to be fodder that pre-time skip crocodile would have been able to handle, surely we're not jumping the gun on claiming "retcon" because of his high bounty? We're conveniently forgetting that Buggy exists?

What makes crocoboy isn't just his df but also his ability to come up with new schemes, the marines know what he's capable of after the alabasta incident.

 

[Nie Li]

What is this baseless crocodile style retcon people you keep bringing up? When was crocodile retconned? We've not seen him fight at all besides the one scene of him going to save Buggy but those just appear to be fodder that pre-time skip crocodile would have been able to handle, surely we're not jumping the gun on claiming "retcon" because of his high bounty? We're conveniently forgetting that Buggy exists?

What makes crocoboy isn't just his df but also his ability to come up with new schemes, the marines know what he's capable of after the alabasta incident.

I think the retcrocon argument comes from way earlier than the bounty increase and references Marineford.

 

[grey matter]

What is this baseless crocodile style retcon people you keep bringing up? When was crocodile retconned? We've not seen him fight at all besides the one scene of him going to save Buggy but those just appear to be fodder that pre-time skip crocodile would have been able to handle, surely we're not jumping the gun on claiming "retcon" because of his high bounty? We're conveniently forgetting that Buggy exists?

What makes crocoboy isn't just his df but also his ability to come up with new schemes, the marines know what he's capable of after the alabasta incident.

Dude lost to fucking gearless hakiless Luffy that any Tobiroppo can stomp........
Yeah, Luffy needed 3 rounds, needed to be wet, I know. Luffy with water is basically equivalent of Luffy with haki, functionally speaking. Pre TS gearless Luffy is giga fodder even if you give him haki.

Crocodile then in Marienford was treated as a completely different beast.
He had portrayal and respect similar to commanders, while Luffy was seen as an insect.

How was Crocodile not retconned?


As for current Crocodile, my gut instincts tell me he would be retconned again, though it isn't confirmed yet.
In MF, while he had commander-esque portrayal, he was clearly weaker than someone like Jozu. Currently, I don't think so. But yes, that remains to be seen.

 

[LadyVados]

I hope if Lunarians are weak to AdCoC, because if Luffy uses an Over Kong Gun and SBear no-sells it… that’ll throw all powerscaling out of the window.

 

[john ellis]

Nope, it was extremely helpful for luffy agaisnt kaido. Even kaido was forced to use FS to counter luffy's FS Snakeman.

That is how powerful it is. It is the most powwrful ability in the story asidr for. ACOC shanks level.

It’s not even pls, firstly Luffy wasn’t hitting kaido with Fs he was just hitting kaido with really fast attacks and kaido used FS to dodge it.

Secondly FS g5 Luffy would have lost easily to kaido without ACoC or ACoA as he would have had no means to hurt kaido. FS is probably my the weakest of the advanced forms of Hali we’ve seen it maybe it’s tied with ACoA, but ACoA seems important in unlocking ACoC.

having knowledge of an attack is meaningless if you can’t defend or attack it. If you saw a gun being shot at you, you would have knowledge of it hitting you, but wouldn’t be able to react or defend from it. Even with the future knowledge of events.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2023 ---

I hope if Lunarians are weak to AdCoC, because if Luffy uses an Over Kong Gun and SBear no-sells it… that’ll throw all powerscaling out of the window.

Luffy can probably one shot seraphim’s with him not being an idiot. I can’t believe seraphim’s can no sell actual yonko attacks, otherwise the 9 seraphim would be able to easily solo yonko crews

 

[Rein Avara]

Crocodile then in Marienford was treated as a completely different beast.
He had portrayal and respect similar to commanders, while Luffy was seen as an insect.

How was Crocodile not retconned?

Luffy was an insect at marineford though, realistically who was he actually going to defeat there apart from fodder and Coby.

Luffy's win over crocodile was sheer luck and just hubris on crocodiles part.

Was crocodile using haki at marineford? Sure he clashed with a few people, but clashes aren't truly indicative of ones strength.

Crocodile didn't really achieve a whole lot feat wise, what we got from marineford was an understanding of his character. My guy doflamingo was still laughing in his face at the end of the day.
He really wasn't a threat to anyone but fodder.

I'm not even a crocodile fan like that but maybe we should reserve the term retcon for when Oda actually says he's done it. He's already come to have retconned a bunch of shit in previous arcs this was not one of them. I'll leave it there.