Discussion Are haki and DFs at their core the same?

[DeadlyBeast]

Hear me out, I know this will sound crazy. So I was watching a random physics lecture the other day about how theoretical physicists have been trying to combine quantum mechanics and general relativity. There are a lot of approaches that researches take, one of which is to try getting from QM to GR, with one manifesting from the other, and that made me think about OP power systems.

At the heart of it OP has two power mechanisms: DF introduced formally in the first chapter AND haki introduced formally during Skypiea. Both of these power systems are vital to the OP world and many of the characters. However, one thing has always been strange to me, there are lots of people asking about the origins of DFs, how they work, etc. This curiosity exists both in real life and within the OP story itself. In story we have a lot of scientists that have worked to replicate DF powers in their own way but no one that we have seen taking this same approach to haki which always seemed strange to me.

Finally during Egghead arc we got a deeper explanation to the origins of DFs. Vegapunk basically said that DFs are born of the desires of humans. If people desire and imagine X, it eventually enters the world as a DF power. Now doesn't some of this sound like haki?

What do we know about haki at its core - all humans have the capacity for it (aside from CoC) therefore it is natural. Haki can be manifested and fortified to give a user strength and abilities that are pretty ridiculous when you think about it - armor, sensing, seeing the future, doing internal damage, etc. Had haki never been introduced to OP all of these could have been DF abilities and we wouldn't have batted an eye. We also know that haki is to some extent a manifestation of a living persons will, not in the sense of intent but more in the sense of existing in and of itself. I think this is why a lot of people compare haki to a qi/chi.

Based on the what we know one question that irked me with Vegapunks explanation on DF origins is the explanatory gap between desire and those desires manifestation. Why would a DF power come into the world just because people wished for it? There wasn't any explanation provided here. But in thinking about haki and what it is at its base, could that be the explanation?

Basically, I'm thinking that the desires/wishes of many oridinary people results in their haki subconsiously leaking into the world and manifesting into the world. Haki is this magical thing that all humans have that is tied to their will and so far is considered natural (nature does not reject haki users and make them drown). Basically collective haki can lead to the creation of DFs. I also think that is what fuels the reincarnation cycle since peoples continued desire can be fuel in the form of haki. I don't think this happened by itself either. My hypothesis is that the Ancient Kingdom was researching energy sources and as part of this they explored using haki. I think the technology of the Ancient Kingdom used haki to create the first ever DFs into the world. Think about it, scientists today research DFs since they exist but I don't think DFs always existed.

TLDR: Ancient Kingdom researched haki as potential solution to problems i.e. energy -> this research led them to technology that allowed collective haki of people around the world to manifest those people's desires into something physical, resulting in birth of DFs -> nature (in the form of sea) rejects DFs as it is unnatural use of something natural (haki) -> people's continued desire for DFs keeps fueling them with collective haki that drives the DF reincarnation cycle.


P.S. I have no theories on this tangential topic but VP formally introduced the concept of a sentient nature that rejects DFs so OP world may actually have a genuine god, one that cannot be replicated via DFs. This makes me wonder if this sea god will play a role in the end story so if anyone has thoughts on this would be curious to hear them.

 

[kkck]

Hmm, tbh I didn't take vegapunk's explanation regarding devil fruits literally. contextually his explanation will probably fit into a more pseudo technical explanation of DFs later in the story IMO. Even now vegapunk has replicated to varying degrees multiple devil fruits through the use of technology, which suggests that DFs themselves are the product of technology.

I had a bit of a crackpot theory regarding how devil fruits interact with the sea though. We know from rumble ball explanation that devil fruits having something like wavelengths or energy which the rumble balls can alter. This is how chopper initially got new forms. Then we also know the sea itself has its own energy or perhaps even wavelength. This wavelength or energy is also held to some capacity by sea stone. My hypothesis here is that the sea's energy frenquency actually cancel's devil fruit's energy to some capacity which causes the user to be paralyzed when sufficiently submerged.

Interesting though, sea stone's effects are different from the sea's effects. Both cause the user to feel weakened by sea stone unlike the oceans straight up shuts down devil fruit abilities. Perhaps because sea stone has far more concentrated energy or whatever than the sea. Though it is worth noting sea stone does not cause full paralysis like water bodies do. Perhaps sufficient contact with sea stone would eventually achieve the same effect?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Hmm, tbh I didn't take vegapunk's explanation regarding devil fruits literally. contextually his explanation will probably fit into a more pseudo technical explanation of DFs later in the story IMO. Even now vegapunk has replicated to varying degrees multiple devil fruits through the use of technology, which suggests that DFs themselves are the product of technology.

I really didn't want to take it literally at first too but I don't think we're going to get a different explanation. And yes I completely agree that DFs are a product of technology. I just think that technology may have channeled the haki of the masses to create the first DFs. My guess is the people who did it were scientist in the Ancient Kingdom.

As for VP, you'll notice despite all his success he is actually only able to replicate existing DFs and his replicas as good as they are don't seem to be the "real" thing i.e. he questions if awakening is possible and we have yet to see them reincarnate. If VP were to create a net new DF that can awaken and also reincarnates that would be a true success. However, he isn't even able to replicate non zoan fruits so I'd say he is far from getting to the technology that was used to create the originals.

I had a bit of a crackpot theory regarding how devil fruits interact with the sea though. We know from rumble ball explanation that devil fruits having something like wavelengths or energy which the rumble balls can alter. This is how chopper initially got new forms. Then we also know the sea itself has its own energy or perhaps even wavelength. This wavelength or energy is also held to some capacity by sea stone. My hypothesis here is that the sea's energy frenquency actually cancel's devil fruit's energy to some capacity which causes the user to be paralyzed when sufficiently submerged.

Interesting though, sea stone's effects are different from the sea's effects. Both cause the user to feel weakened by sea stone unlike the oceans straight up shuts down devil fruit abilities. Perhaps because sea stone has far more concentrated energy or whatever than the sea. Though it is worth noting sea stone does not cause full paralysis like water bodies do. Perhaps sufficient contact with sea stone would eventually achieve the same effect?

That's an interesting idea. Personally prefer this idea then VPs explanation that nature rejects DF users for being unnatural. If the waves are the core of the mechanism wonder if that means VP or someone advanced could generate the seas wavelength artificially. That would open up room for insane weapons and defense systems that could neutralize all DF users.

I think the sea is just not concentrated enough which is why DF users can seemingly still use their powers. Seastone definitely is a full dose. We know it comes in grades and the kind that lets you move is lower concentration seastone cuffs. We saw that 100% seastone has similar effects to the sea in that the user can't really move a la BM.

 

[Fox666]

At the heart of it OP has two power mechanisms: DF introduced formally in the first chapter AND haki introduced formally during Skypiea.

Haki was first used in chapter 1, when Shanks scared the Sea King.

It was only when Luffy started training with Rayleigh that he explained the basics of Haki.

Interesting though, sea stone's effects are different from the sea's effects. Both cause the user to feel weakened by sea stone unlike the oceans straight up shuts down devil fruit abilities. Perhaps because sea stone has far more concentrated energy or whatever than the sea. Though it is worth noting sea stone does not cause full paralysis like water bodies do. Perhaps sufficient contact with sea stone would eventually achieve the same effect?

It's possible to control the density of sea stone.

The cuffs used by prisoners are not dense enough to prevent them from walking. But stuff like sea stone cells completely shut them down.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Haki was first used in chapter 1, when Shanks scared the Sea King.

It was only when Luffy started training with Rayleigh that he explained the basics of Haki.

I personally didn't take the Shanks Sea King thing as a formal intro since it wasn't named, described or anything. Plus I always had trouble reconciling how realistically if he could use haki then he wouldn't have lost his arm. Sometimes I think it was just Oda making Shanks look cool and nothing more since Zoro got moments like that throughout the story too

For me Skypeia though an incomplete intro was formal since Mantra and its abilities were described, its limits explored etc. But you're right the full formal intro was with Rayleigh

 

[Nie Li]

I personally didn't take the Shanks Sea King thing as a formal intro since it wasn't named, described or anything. Plus I always had trouble reconciling how realistically if he could use haki then he wouldn't have lost his arm. Sometimes I think it was just Oda making Shanks look cool and nothing more since Zoro got moments like that throughout the story too

For me Skypeia though an incomplete intro was formal since Mantra and its abilities were described, its limits explored etc. But you're right the full formal intro was with Rayleigh

It was definitely just Oda making Shanks look cool, but it can be retconned as CoC since the effect was the same. Haki or not, for a man woth 1B+ it's ridiculous to have lost an arm to a sea king that Luffy could one-punch in literal chapter 1 of the manga.

I don't think Rayleigh was the introduction. To me, he was just the encyclopedia moment for casual readers, which is also needed in the story and it's good we had it. Here's how haki was introduced in the manga:
- We saw titbits about haki on Arabasta with Zoro, like 100 chapters into the manga.
- Then it got immediately namedropped on Jaya.
- Then we immediately got to see Mantra on Skypiea, with characters like Enel getting extreme farsight (and farhearing) and something similar to mind reading and predicting. Satori, more than him, showing that he could either see the future or literally read minds.
- Not as much of a hint/foreshadowing, but around that time we also got to see Smoker with a new mysterious scar (which could have been done by Kairouseki but back then I liked to think it hinted to a new way to injure logia users, who were otherwise too OP).
- Then we got a full saga without haki but right after it we got to see Garp use haki on screen and it being heavily hinted as a force to counter DF defenses.
- Another arc (Thriller Bark) without haki but right after we got Luffy accidentally using CoC, Sentoumaru using CoA, the Kuja using haki and naming it, the Boa Sisters showing off the same effect on DF defenses Garp had showed beforehand (and warranting the same comments from onlookers), CoC getting named, etc.
- It kept being named during Marineford, where we saw more of CoA and of CoO, with Coby even showing its awakening. We also got, from Akainu and Aokiji, confirmation that CoA could counter logia's defenses easily (but they were still too high level to get hit by it by anyone other than a serious Yonko).
- Then we got Rayleigh putting everything together, but Rayleigh explained very little things we hadn't already seen in those different arcs. We knew the name, we knew CoA could counter DF powers and make attacks hits harder, we knew it could project at a short distance, we knew CoO could make one see the future, etc.
The new info was just comparing haki to "instinct" in living beings, and telling us everybody in the world has it (except CoC) and it must simply be learnt and trained, and the names of the common categories (we knew they existed and what they could do, just not they were called CoA and CoO. Conqueror's Haki was already named since Amazon Lily).

 

[kkck]

It's possible to control the density of sea stone.

The cuffs used by prisoners are not dense enough to prevent them from walking. But stuff like sea stone cells completely shut them down.

I thought that was just sea stone being indestructible, not actually shutting them down like the sea does. take jinbe, he has monstrous physical strength and sea stone doesn't debuff him and even then it was simply impossible for him to escape. As far as we know sea stone would be more than capable of restraining the full might of kaido or big mom even if it didn't debuff them at all.

 

[Fox666]

I thought that was just sea stone being indestructible, not actually shutting them down like the sea does. take jinbe, he has monstrous physical strength and sea stone doesn't debuff him and even then it was simply impossible for him to escape. As far as we know sea stone would be more than capable of restraining the full might of kaido or big mom even if it didn't debuff them at all.

It wouldn't work on Luffy or Logias tho

And we have seen Luffy becoming dizzy after touching sea stone bars, or after being hit by Smoker's jitter

 

[kkck]

It wouldn't work on Luffy or Logias tho

And we have seen Luffy becoming dizzy after touching sea stone bars, or after being hit by Smoker's jitter

What wouldn't work on logias? sea stone? We saw ace being restrained at ID with sea stone. And sea stone worked on luffy at kaido's prison.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I thought that was just sea stone being indestructible, not actually shutting them down like the sea does. take jinbe, he has monstrous physical strength and sea stone doesn't debuff him and even then it was simply impossible for him to escape. As far as we know sea stone would be more than capable of restraining the full might of kaido or big mom even if it didn't debuff them at all.

I don't think sea stone is indestructible. Since it can be crafted the material definitely is malleable to some extent, Jinbei just might not be strong enough. On top of the cell doors, he was also fully chained to the wall, and had been beaten pretty badly like days before.

Had Kaido or BM not been DF users I don't think just standard chains and gate would be enough to subdue them.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2023 ---

It was definitely just Oda making Shanks look cool, but it can be retconned as CoC since the effect was the same. Haki or not, for a man woth 1B+ it's ridiculous to have lost an arm to a sea king that Luffy could one-punch in literal chapter 1 of the manga.

I don't think Rayleigh was the introduction. To me, he was just the encyclopedia moment for casual readers, which is also needed in the story and it's good we had it. Here's how haki was introduced in the manga:
- We saw titbits about haki on Arabasta with Zoro, like 100 chapters into the manga.
- Then it got immediately namedropped on Jaya.
- Then we immediately got to see Mantra on Skypiea, with characters like Enel getting extreme farsight (and farhearing) and something similar to mind reading and predicting. Satori, more than him, showing that he could either see the future or literally read minds.
- Not as much of a hint/foreshadowing, but around that time we also got to see Smoker with a new mysterious scar (which could have been done by Kairouseki but back then I liked to think it hinted to a new way to injure logia users, who were otherwise too OP).
- Then we got a full saga without haki but right after it we got to see Garp use haki on screen and it being heavily hinted as a force to counter DF defenses.
- Another arc (Thriller Bark) without haki but right after we got Luffy accidentally using CoC, Sentoumaru using CoA, the Kuja using haki and naming it, the Boa Sisters showing off the same effect on DF defenses Garp had showed beforehand (and warranting the same comments from onlookers), CoC getting named, etc.
- It kept being named during Marineford, where we saw more of CoA and of CoO, with Coby even showing its awakening. We also got, from Akainu and Aokiji, confirmation that CoA could counter logia's defenses easily (but they were still too high level to get hit by it by anyone other than a serious Yonko).
- Then we got Rayleigh putting everything together, but Rayleigh explained very little things we hadn't already seen in those different arcs. We knew the name, we knew CoA could counter DF powers and make attacks hits harder, we knew it could project at a short distance, we knew CoO could make one see the future, etc.
The new info was just comparing haki to "instinct" in living beings, and telling us everybody in the world has it (except CoC) and it must simply be learnt and trained, and the names of the common categories (we knew they existed and what they could do, just not they were called CoA and CoO. Conqueror's Haki was already named since Amazon Lily).

That's so true, Oda did trickle in a lot of info over the course of paradise that by the end of it we had seen it all. Rayleigh just summarized it all together. Maybe we will get a moment like that about advanced haki's soon.

 

[kkck]

I don't think sea stone is indestructible. Since it can be crafted the material definitely is malleable to some extent, Jinbei just might not be strong enough. On top of the cell doors, he was also fully chained to the wall, and had been beaten pretty badly like days before.

Had Kaido or BM not been DF users I don't think just standard chains and gate would be enough to subdue them.

The story does not have any instance of sea stone ever being even slightly scratched by anyone whatsoever. Clearly sea stone can be worked on but the finish product is the go to of the story when it comes to suppressing people who can otherwise level islands with a punch. I don't think mihawk or shanks could free themselves from a proper kairoseki restraint.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

We don’t have any explanation on how Poneglyphs are indestructible considering they were man-made and crafted. The most logical explanation would be that an advanced technology or a DF power was used to turn them indestructible after they were terminated by the Kozuki clan, and I hope that Oda will address this during the flashback about Void Century.

For Kairouseki, I think it can be destroyed but most of the time it is used against DF users so they don’t have the strength to break them because of Kairouseki. I don’t see how people like Shanks, Rayleigh and Roger with both advanced COA and COC could be kept under Kairouseki since it is not supposed to weaken Haki users unless they are permanently underfed and have consequently a weak Haki. Honestly the Kairouseki collar is a weak plot because people should be able to protect themselves with Haki coating from explosions and cutting attacks considering it stays external damage.

 

[I Am Atomic]

don’t see how people like Shanks, Rayleigh and Roger with both advanced COA and COC could be kept under Kairouseki since it is not supposed to weaken Haki users

No explanation as to why, but seastone disables haki...

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

No explanation as to why, but seastone disables haki...

Is it for everybody or only DF users?

 

[I Am Atomic]

Is it for everybody or only DF users?

Not sure! I think Haki and DF are different, so it shouldn't be affected. No explanation really, so I am not making any assumptions.

 

[Nie Li]

Not sure! I think Haki and DF are different, so it shouldn't be affected. No explanation really, so I am not making any assumptions.

Seastone doesn't just disable DF powers, though, it weakens DF users, so Luffy not being able to use haki properly can be linked to him being a DF user.

It is, however, just an assumption. We would need to see a non-DF user shackled in seastone trying to fight.

 

[kkck]

No explanation as to why, but seastone disables haki...

I think the issue here is that kairoseki causes DF users to feel physically weak. I could see this hampering their ability to use haki. But this isn't something which should affect people without devil fruits.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2023 ---

Seastone doesn't just disable DF powers, though, it weakens DF users, so Luffy not being able to use haki properly can be linked to him being a DF user.

It is, however, just an assumption. We would need to see a non-DF user shackled in seastone trying to fight.

If seastone didn't disable devil fruits then it would be pretty easy for luffy to escape seastone cuffs with a rubber body. Or for ace to escape sea stone restraints with his intangibility. Sea stone, unlike the ocean, actually does shut down devil fruit abilities. The story doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

[Nie Li]

I think the issue here is that kairoseki causes DF users to feel physically weak. I could see this hampering their ability to use haki. But this isn't something which should affect people without devil fruits.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2023 ---

If seastone didn't disable devil fruits then it would be pretty easy for luffy to escape seastone cuffs with a rubber body. Or for ace to escape sea stone restraints with his intangibility. Sea stone, unlike the ocean, actually does shut down devil fruit abilities. The story doesn't make sense otherwise.

We basically said the same thing.

To add to your example, kairouseki allowed Enel to be hit and killed by a physical attack.

 

[kkck]

We basically said the same thing.

To add to your example, kairouseki allowed Enel to be hit and killed by a physical attack.

Ah, for some reason I read " Seastone doesn't disable DF powers, though..."

 

[DeadlyBeast]

The story does not have any instance of sea stone ever being even slightly scratched by anyone whatsoever. Clearly sea stone can be worked on but the finish product is the go to of the story when it comes to suppressing people who can otherwise level islands with a punch. I don't think mihawk or shanks could free themselves from a proper kairoseki restraint.

It is still a bit of an open question to me. We have seen that Seastone is really durable but nothing showing that they are indestructible. Seastone is definitely malleable since even the WG can make stuff out of them. We also have seen Navy ships that have a layer of Seastone on their hull getting damaged so we know things made of Seastone aren't indestructible.

What's not clear is how durable Seastone is. Unlike Poneglpyhs which everyone says is indestructible and no one in present timeline has shown ability to do anything to we can't say the same about Seastone.

On the Seastone haki front that is also up in the air. So far seems to impact DF users to the extent that they can't use haki but its not clear if a non DF user also had their haki suppressed. I personally don't think it does that but maybe that would explain how they keep powerful people like Kawamatsu imprisoned. If Seastone does effect haki on its own that would indicate that DFs and haki do share some underlying thing in common.