Discussion Are haki and DFs at their core the same?

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think you're overcomplicating it.

One Piece is a world that has magic inside it, Madame Shirley can see the future from clairevoyance.

Haki is just a magical power that is natural to everyone. It also has nothing to do with Will, I am pretty sure when Rayleigh said Will, he simply meant Luffy had the perseverance and determination to learn to use Haki. Everyone has the potential to be a millionaire, but not everyone has the perseverance, will, risk-taking ability and talent to actually execute it.

Vegapunk just said DFs come from desire, I don't see why this isn't a sufficient answer.

Klaubertermann is the soul/spirit of a ship that is manifested when the owners have a great attachment towards the ship. That had nothing to do with Haki. One Piece is a world of magic after-all.

 

[Fox666]

It is still a bit of an open question to me. We have seen that Seastone is really durable but nothing showing that they are indestructible. Seastone is definitely malleable since even the WG can make stuff out of them. We also have seen Navy ships that have a layer of Seastone on their hull getting damaged so we know things made of Seastone aren't indestructible.

They were said to be as hard as diamonds

We haven't seen anyone ever breaking them

So I assume they are indestructible?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

They were said to be as hard as diamonds

We haven't seen anyone ever breaking them

So I assume they are indestructible?

I think it will depend on how much seastone is present and how dense it is. For example we have seen Marine Ships get damaged and sink even though the entire bottom is covered in seastone to allow them to sail through the calm belt. In theory if seastone was indestructible we should never have Navy ships sink since their hull will never have a hole. But I think you're right that we haven't seen any example of a direct seastone product like chain/cuffs/weapon being damaged.

However, I do think it will have limits. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me that Wano doesn't make all their weapons especially swords with them. They have the raw material (Wano is said to be source of seastone) and the best craftsmen able to make the most precise seastone products in the world. For great swordsmen it's been stated that keeping sword from breaking/getting damaged is a big deal. Had they been made of seastone (should they be indestructible) then this would be a non problem. Hell imagine how much more easy it would have been for the Samurai to defeat Kaido if all of them had seastone weapons. It would take a single good stab with haki to take him down.

 

[Fox666]

I think it will depend on how much seastone is present and how dense it is. For example we have seen Marine Ships get damaged and sink even though the entire bottom is covered in seastone to allow them to sail through the calm belt. In theory if seastone was indestructible we should never have Navy ships sink since their hull will never have a hole. But I think you're right that we haven't seen any example of a direct seastone product like chain/cuffs/weapon being damaged.

However, I do think it will have limits. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me that Wano doesn't make all their weapons especially swords with them. They have the raw material (Wano is said to be source of seastone) and the best craftsmen able to make the most precise seastone products in the world. For great swordsmen it's been stated that keeping sword from breaking/getting damaged is a big deal. Had they been made of seastone (should they be indestructible) then this would be a non problem. Hell imagine how much more easy it would have been for the Samurai to defeat Kaido if all of them had seastone weapons. It would take a single good stab with haki to take him down.

Seastone is said to be rare, so that means the bottom of marine ships can't really be actually made of seastone. I think it's more akin to the paint used in Marine ships having seastone dust on it, or something like that.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Seastone is said to be rare, so that means the bottom of marine ships can't really be actually made of seastone. I think it's more akin to the paint used in Marine ships having seastone dust on it, or something like that.

Yeah this is likely the case.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 10, 2023 ---

I think you're overcomplicating it.

One Piece is a world that has magic inside it, Madame Shirley can see the future from clairevoyance.

Haki is just a magical power that is natural to everyone. It also has nothing to do with Will, I am pretty sure when Rayleigh said Will, he simply meant Luffy had the perseverance and determination to learn to use Haki. Everyone has the potential to be a millionaire, but not everyone has the perseverance, will, risk-taking ability and talent to actually execute it.

Vegapunk just said DFs come from desire, I don't see why this isn't a sufficient answer.

Klaubertermann is the soul/spirit of a ship that is manifested when the owners have a great attachment towards the ship. That had nothing to do with Haki. One Piece is a world of magic after-all.

I probably am overthinking it, especially bringing in the Ancient Kingdom into the mix. The only reason that I went down some form of science route for DFs is purely because Oda has spent so much time trying to give OP science a say in the mechanism of DFs which to me does try to explain a bit of the "magic". But at the end of the day the most recent explanation from VP about DF does put magical realism back into the spotlight.

However, I would argue that there is some reason to connect haki and DFs (they do interact in OP after all e.g. why does haki have any effect on DFs at all if they are completely independent things?). I think the way the OP world has been set up at large connects a lot of the magical properties. None of this is to say that this is Oda's intention or that by any means any of the following is right, it's just me hypothesizing during a break week.

My read on OP world is it is an animistic world fundamentally built on one core magical concept - WILL. In the OP world we have the following known facts:

• A type of magical energy called haki exists in the world and can be manifested by living things, particularly humans as an extension of their WILL
• Everything has a breath (whatever you take this to be) that can be felt. This includes inanimate objects like rocks & swords.
• Everything has a voice (whatever you take this to be) that can be heard & communicated to if one has VOAT. This includes inanimate objects like Poneglyph.
• DFs exist and provide some magical powers. We recently have been told that Zoan fruits have minds of their own and that DFs in general came to be as a result of human desire.

In my mind I think the above are all connected by WILL. In the OP world we know the following about will:

• Will of D is a big mystery but has been passed down for generations in the D line
• People's Will in general can be passed and inherited by others (WB made a point of this with Roger's and Ace's will).

So how does this connect the magic of OP together? My hypothesis is that in OP world:

• All things living & non living have some level of WILL in them
  • There is a hierarchy to WILLs that does matter
• Humans can express their WILL via magical energy (haki)
• At a macro scale humanities collective WILL can manifest DFs into existence
  • At a micro scale a small group of people's collective WILL can manifest the WILL of inanimate objects into the world i.e. Klaubertermann
• Humans can use special means to understand the WILL of things. BOAT & VOAT are examples of this.

What thinking like this explains for me are some strange properties of the OP world. Specific examples for me are:

1. Why are DFs effected by haki at all?
   • My answer using the above is that a human's WILL can surpass a DFs WILL. This to me means a human who is capable of harnessing their WILL and projecting it out into the world via haki enables them to interact with DFs whether that be bypassing logia intangibility or nullifying effects like Law did with Doc Q
2. Why does the ocean nullify DF powers?
   • The WILL of the Ocean is stronger than that of any DF. A DF's WILL is completely subjugated and not allowed to be exercised making DF powers meaningless in water.
3. Why do DF users drown?
   • The WILL of the Ocean is stronger than that of any human. Due to the Ocean not liking DFs this ire extends to the host. Similar to how a weak WILL human cannot stand in the presence of a strong WILL human who can use CoC, NO human's can handle the WILL of the Ocean.
4. How does DF awakening happen?
   • All DFs have a WILL (Zoans having the strongest WILL of all DFs). When the WILL of the user and the WILL of the DF align AND the body of the user is able to handle the DFs full power the fruit is awakened.
5. What makes a black blade a black blade?
   • I'd say this works similarly to DF awakening. All things have WILL including inanimate objects like swords. When the WILL of a swordsman and the WILL of a sword align AND the swordsmen has the sufficient capability of to handling the full power of the sword AND the sword is well built enough to handle the power of the swordsman it turns into a black blade. I'd go so far as to argue a black blade is one in which the WILL of the sword allows it to coat itself permanently in CoA haki.
6. Why can't a person eat more than one DF at a time?
   • Each DF has its own WILL. When having two DFs in the same host the WILLs of the DFs come into conflict with each other causing the host to die. This is why I think BB will be explained to somehow be technically 2 host bodies allowing him to survive with 2 fruits.
     • I think Oda has hinted at this by providing in world mythology via Jyabura about a literal devil living inside a DF which then goes into the person. This idea is wrong in that there is no devil but it is directionally right in that there is a WILL in a DF.

This train of thought can extend to many phenomena in the OP world. OF COURSE THIS COULD ALL BE WRONG AND I AM NOT STATING ANYTHING HERE AS AS FACT.

But I do think it is fruitful to think this way. The reason being the author is Oda a human born and raised in Japanese culture. A culture that has a lot of animistic properties that believes that humans, animals, nature, day to day objects have some level of sentience. So it's not far fetched to think that this would reflect in the fictional work of a person with this type of cultural background.

 

[redhairSH]

In the basic sense - kind of?

Devil fruits give certain abilities, and with training and experience, you tend to get stronger and your abilities become more versatile. And there comes a point where you can awaken, your abilities get stronger and more versatile, but at that point the abilities become more difficult to use and master. Also, some fruits are Naturally superior to others, some just have more abilities than others, for example, Marco has all of Pells abilitie, plus self regeneratio, and he can use the flames to heal others and for offense.

Haki gives certain abilities, with training and experience you can really widen your scope. And eventually you can unlock advanced haki, but this is more difficult to master. Also, some people are naturally gifted at one type and some can’t use all types no mater how strong you are, for example, I think Marco is more powerful than kid or chinjao, but he still won’t ever develop conquerors haki