Crazy Theories and Predictions

[Zmsp]

I think there's meaning to it, but it won't relate to Vergo himself.
I think the similarities between Dressrosa and Alabasta are quite obvious, and Alabasta turned out to be very important in the long run. Vergo is a metaphor for something else, just like Doflamingo. He's part of an archtype, and eventually we'll find out his more important equivalent.

Vergo was an infiltrator, someone who played an important role in a grand scheme, and part of the reason Rosinante died.
He also represents an important animal in the series: he's the demon bamboo and a messy eater -> He's a Panda.

Other important Pandas in the series include:
- Spandam, the de facto leader of Cypher Pol 9, who ended up being responsible for the death of Tom, and part of a grand scheme that included infiltrating Galley La in order to get the blueprints for Pluton.
- Kuma, someone whose importance needs no mention, but remains unrevealed. He's also part of a scheme that we don't yet understand.
- Pandaman, an easter egg, but I'll leave this one out.

See where I'm going with this? You find a common thread in three characters, their animal motif, and suddenly there's an ongoing trend in each of their plots.

Perhaps the death of a child or an abduction are related to Kuma and his reasons for working with the government, or he's actually not who we think he is.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 4, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 4, 2023 ---

Oh, I forgot to mention Law, who's a snow leopard. I've been doing some research on Pandas and they're frequently syncretized with big cats in mythology, and the snow leopard is one of them. Law also has some spatial distortion type of fruit that resembles Kuma in some ways. I know that we've grown fond of Law, but he's a bit of a tyrant in his own right.

The Law & Vergo dynamic might actually give us something on Kuma, rather than Vergo alone. They both occupied the Heart seat.

 

[Critical mindset]

In the anime Smoker dropped his marine coat, which is an interesting fact because they don’t just fall off like that. In fact Oda even clarified that in an SBS that marine coats can stay on without the sleeves because of their “pride”.

His encounter with Vergo is significant because it triggered his loss of pride of wearing the uniform. But why?

Smoker’s backstory and ideology as a marine

Lets first establish the fact that Smoker is highly infatuated with the marines as an institution by understanding his backstory a little. Smoker enlisted in the marines together Hina who is his long standing friend. He is described in SBS volume 27 as a “punk that never listened to his superiors” and that Hina had to pull strings for him not be fired several times. Hina enlisting as the same time as Smoker and her being described as an “elite”, it shows that a career jump in the marines is hard if you’re not an on-board camp follower that doesn’t question and just do what you’re told. Smoker simply isn’t cut out as a yes-man.

What happens is the marine establishment sees Smoker as a valuable asset but nevertheless as a thorn in their side with his constant insubordination being seen as a problem, so they transfer him over to handle the security of Logue Town, an East Blue town teaming with pirates. A low maintenance task far below his actual pay grade.

This is where we first see him, sort of as a little sheriff of this place that once was the birthplace of the New Age of Piracy, now the symbol of peace: a quaint little town, where no pirates are known to escape.

The situation is so “bad” that the weapons store owner that sold Zoro’s his Yubashiri is quick to complain to Tashigi that her boss’s efficient handling of pirates has crippled his business, because pirates constitute most of his clients, which means the money flow is drying up.

Summary of Smoker’s pride as marine

Smoker sticks around as a marine even after demotion and constant backlash from the system, which shows that Smoker truly has an idealistic and incorruptible love and pride of the marines as an institution, even when his notion of true justice falls on deaf ears.

Why stick around when your efforts are met with constant backlash and setbacks from the system itself? There must be some higher principle that allows him to stand firm and take the slings and arrows of the system he wants to change firing back at him. I don’t think there can be anything than other than a principal and inviolable pride in the marine institution itself. Whatever system of justice is the reigning one, Smoker belief in the institution and the pride he attaches to himself as a part of the institution, that is fundamentally his core identity.

Smoker’s constant insubordination shows that he constantly lambasts on the marines mode of operandi, something no other marine does or has a track record of doing besides possibly Fujitora who does it not for the pride of the marine institution of wanting to see it better or improved, but as a form of inner coup d’état, to abolish the warlord system. Smoker constantly works to improve the marine organisation because in essence he is the person to attach the greatest amount of pride to himself as a marine in the series.

Smoker’s journey is about upholding the sanctity of the marine organisation and his personal justice

What is it about Vergo?

Vergo changed his outlook on the marine organisation but why? Vergo is just one bad apple that doesn’t reflect the marine as an organisation. All you can really say is marines need to do proper background checks, not throw away your coat that represents your “pride“ as marine.

We knew already that this problem with infiltrations exists from chapter 3 or 4 when the marines was suspicious of letting Coby join because they’ve had problems with infiltrators. This is nothing new.

The issue with Vergo is he is a pirate, he helps advance the interest of Doflamingo’s pirate business - and Gorosei know this! The Gorosei allow for Vergo to wield a powerful position in the navy with insane amount of military resources at his disposal, because the Gorosei realises that the marines need Vergo’s power in the New World.

Caesar said Vergo is a monster , that his haki is unstoppable , this is a person who in power is minimum on Judge’s level himself who defeated Snack off panel

Vergo in terms of military authority dwarfs a lot of powerful characters

The Gorosei already delegated 6 warships to Vergo alone, and as base commander he command six units like the one we see with Vergo and Tashigi. That means he controls six warships and a minimum of 12 marine offices as every unit has two leading officers. That’s probably more power than an admiral can just randomly ask for.

G-5 /=/ Marine headquarters. Vergo doesn’t need to take orders from Akainu what to do with his 6 warships and 12 officers

This is what people need to realise , though I don’t expect much of “people” in terms of basic reading and cognitive ability, that Vergo has his own dominion separate from the regular marine organisation. This is why you need special clearance from an admiral to even transfer to G-5 because this organisation is separate from Marine HQ.(see smoker needing permission from admiral Aokiji, and Vergo requesting a transfer from admiral Sengoku at rhe

G-5 is a separate dominion that is responsible for keeping the New World safe. Marine HQ doesn’t have that specific task so it is delegated to G-5. This

Also worth mentioning is that Zephyr was in G-5 all the way up to becoming an admiral at an early age of 38.

Vergo, the equivalent of marine warlord

Vergo is a pirate masquerading as a marine, and the Gorosei are aware of this. Vergo is probably under a lot of pressure from the Gorosei to perform as a marine to make interventions against pirates and yonkous, but in exchange he can use the military resources of G-5 to target pirates and other ennemies of Doflamingo in a way to make him the leader of the underworld.

This in fact has nothing to do with the marines but the government. The government allows warlords for the extra power they provide, and the same applies to Vergo.

Smoker realises the corrupt nature of how the system he works but this is not marine-related, but has to do with how the WG allows for pirate elements to become legal just for the sake of power and military leverage. Warlords corrupt justice, but now with Vergo it corrupted the very marine institution itself.

This is why Smoker couldn’t bare it and dropped his marine coat.
@Zmsp

 

[Zmsp]

I must say this is a very well written piece, so I commend you for the effort you put into it!

I'm not sure if what I wrote in the other thread made it seem like I think of Vergo as something more than a character that serves as a metaphor for some other more important character, but I don't! He's a done deal as far as I'm concerned, but you did open my eyes to how superficial my read on the character was.
He trully packs a lot of metaphorical value that I overlooked, so thank you, I'll think about it some more!

What I mean by this is that we will eventually learn about the primordial conflict that happened 900 years ago, and the Donquixote Family and its inner works are probably a small scale version of the Donquixote patriarch that we heard about in the Tontatta flashback. If we think about it from that perspective, there might have been a Vergo-like character working under him, and history has a tendency to repeat itself, so it's all about reverse engineering and trying to piece things together.

You just gave me a lot to think about in that regard, because Vergo trully is a marine warlord, and he rules over G-5, an unruly bunch that did atrocities even most pirates wouldn't do, and a place that directly mirrors the Marine Headquarters. If you add the fact that the Panda motif is very important to the story, and it's usually associated with overarching villains, I think he might represent the character archtype that creates a rift within the marines, just like you mentioned with Smoker.

It might sound crazy, but I could even see it as a small scale version of Imu + 5 Gorosei (G5, eh?), because I believe they are not the final antagonists, but uncovering their secret is what will lead to the structural change of roles in the series, just like it did with Smoker.

You seem to like Vergo a lot, so feel free to theorize about him all you want, I'll surely read your pieces.
If you're interested in going beyond Vergo as a character and more into his metaphorical value, you can count me in! I think there might be a lot to it.

 

[Zmsp]

I think the leadership of the world has changed at least once over the course of history.
It's quite the common narrative really, but I don't see many people theorizing about it actually reaching the World Government at some point.

We've had Alabasta, Dressrosa and Wano fooled on the back of powers like the Clone/String fruits, so what's keeping Mary Geoise from falling prey to something similar? We also had Hody and Caribou seizing power/treasure during a conflict, and even the Ox Bell incident with Luffy, Rayleigh and Jinbei.

There's also the Germa plot left unfinished: an empire that ruled an entire quadrant of the sea through military might and got offered nobility status. What caused their ruin? What's Judge trying to recreate?

The last key moment that might've changed history is obviously the God Valley incident, and I think the betrayal mentioned by Kaido will turn out to be very important. I've been inclined to think that Xebecs was betrayed by his own crew, and part of them are now impersonating the Gorosei, but this one is still a very unpolished idea.

All in all, I think we need to keep an open mind about who's actually sitting on top of the world, and I don't think Imu and the Gorosei will be some ancient relics that have been pulling the strings for 800 years: there's a twist to it.

 

[Critical mindset]

I must say this is a very well written piece, so I commend you for the effort you put into it!

I'm not sure if what I wrote in the other thread made it seem like I think of Vergo as something more than a character that serves as a metaphor for some other more important character, but I don't! He's a done deal as far as I'm concerned, but you did open my eyes to how superficial my read on the character was.
He trully packs a lot of metaphorical value that I overlooked, so thank you, I'll think about it some more!

What I mean by this is that we will eventually learn about the primordial conflict that happened 900 years ago, and the Donquixote Family and its inner works are probably a small scale version of the Donquixote patriarch that we heard about in the Tontatta flashback. If we think about it from that perspective, there might have been a Vergo-like character working under him, and history has a tendency to repeat itself, so it's all about rever engineering and trying to piece things together.

You just gave me a lot to think about in that regard, because Vergo truly is a marine warlord, and he rules over G-5, an unruly bunch that did atrocities even most pirates wouldn't do, and a place that directly mirrors the Marine Headquarters. If you add the fact that the Panda motif is very important to the story, and it's usually associated with overarching villains, I think he might represent the character archtype that creates a rift within the marines, just like you mentioned with Smoker.

It might sound crazy, but I could even see it as a small scale version of Imu + 5 Gorosei (G5, eh?), because I believe they are not the final antagonists, but uncovering their secret is what will lead to the structural change of roles in the series, just like it did with Smoker.

You seem to like Vergo a lot, so feel free to theorize about him all you want, I'll surely read your pieces.
If you're interested in going beyond Vergo as a character and more into his metaphorical value, you can count me in! I think there might be a lot to it.

I appreciate it!

I gave you a tag because you seem like a person with a good brain on your shoulder (which I can’t say for a lot of people tbh), I saw some very informative posts in the spoiler section + you pointed out the panda connection which was very interesting. I think you’re probably onto something with that, so I’d happily discard my “Vergo-is-a-father” theory because you pointed out some very interesting parallels.

There are a lot of things about Vergo that hasn’t really dawned on the conmunity, there’s so much to explain in just one sitting. I am glad you offered your deep thoughts on the matter, I very much appreciate an exchange of ideas.

The fact that Vergo runs a completely separate organisation from Marine Headquarters means by definition he isn’t forced to take orders from Akainu. If Kizaru wants to do something with 12 marine officers and six warships, Akainu can by definition overrule it. For Vergo, Akainu has no jurisdiction to force him to do anything because Akainu doesn’t have jurisdiction over G-5. Just that alone speaks volumes.

Barring a Buster call that can be initiated by an admiral (which is an extreme measure anyhow and remember admirals are stated to be the protectors over Celestial Dragons which gives them a lot of authority, Vergo does not have that demeaning type of role), I don’t think an admiral can just take authority of this amount of military resources without it being subject to some kind of look-over from Akainu that wants to check over every use of big military under a microscope. Akainu to Kizaru: “Hey Kizaru, what exactly are you up to with those 5 warships? What do you need 6 vice admirals for? I want to be informed on your movements”. I could see this exchange happening lol. However this is just military power Vergo can command casually without any pesky superiors having the power to veto it or being subject to to oversight. The only ones that can do that are the Gorosei but they already delegated those resources to him in the first place because they trust in his capability as military fighter and commander.

Vergo as an officer has a level of authority that is rather unparalleled. The Gorosei are confident to delegate it to Vergo. Doflamingo saw fit that Vergo became a mole and chess piece at the most advantageous place on the board. That could not have happened it Vergo didn’t have exceptional power and skill as a fighter

An example of display of skill that shocked Smoker. It shows Vergo displays a level of skill and fighting capability where he can play around in a fight

Compare this to Tashigi and Smoker that treated going up against Vergo as if it were some sort of a suicide mission

Smoker even faced Ace pre timeskip who knows and defeated a vice admiral with haki in the Ace Novel, so all things considered Ace is minimum yc1 at this time. Smoker had enough power (even some knowledge of haki) to be equal to Ace

While Smoker and Tashigi treats Vergo as a suicide mission Vergo is literally treating fighting as an actual game to him.


Vergo was humouring Sanji at his fighting style with only kicks as a mere sport for him. This is a common way of humiliating your opponent by beating him or her at their own specialty

Being kicked twice by Sanji that has enough power to contend with BM’s own power, that never fazed him or made Sanji look impressive in Vergo’s eyes.

Sanji was in all honesty the strongest strawhat that could’ve faced Vergo in Punk Hazard and Vergo clashed with him and broke his leg like this is just an average day for him

Sanji and Luffy completely cancelled out the power of Big Mom’s punch. For you to cancel it out something you have to exert more force than the power you’re exerting against.

Sanji has been very impressive in the New World, it’s just that he faced Vergo lol

and a place that directly mirrors the Marine Headquarters.

I’m not sure how though.

G-5 is stationed in the New World, at the entrance. Meaning G-5 stands between Paradise and the New World. G-5 then symbolically is an institution that stands to keep the pirates and evil of the New World at bay from “Paradise”.

Notice again that G-5 has 300 men and is stationed at the entrance of the New World. Oda is I think teasing the connection with the 300 Spartans that stood their ground against the invading hordes of invading forces from the east threatening the civilised world (paradise) . The “Hot Gates” where the 300 stood their ground would be symbolically the junction between Paradise and the New World which is where G-5 is stationed

G-5 being at the entrance and having 300 men exactly, ask yourself if that’s just a coincidence. Could be, but I think not. It is a pretty direct parallel if you ask me.

Marine Headquarters is in Paradise. That means it has made the choice to separate itself from engaging with pirates in the New World. Marine HQ is tasked with keeping Paradise safe. The admirals are tasked with protecting celestial dragons. Their job is not to go and cause problems in the New World.

Marine HQ has a safekeeping role, not a military role. Why did the vice admiral guy ask for “clearance” from headquarters to attack the Blackbeard pirates if it had?

Why did Admiral Kizaru not know what devil fruit Marco has? If he is a military of some 50+ years then it doesn’t strike you or most people for that matter as odd? Kizaru is oblivious to the powers of WBs right hand commander, well not only Kizaru but practically entire Marineford. Lol

This is enough evidence in and of itself that the Marine Headquarters are not out there to combat the Yonkous or even fight them much for that matter save for a very rare incident involving the Pirate King’s son.

Ask yourself again why Smoker and Vergo needed an admirals permission to be transferred to G-5. To change just base within a military shouldnt be much of a problem.

Smoker moved to G-5 to seek “status” and more so freedom to go after Luffy in the New World. He wouldn’t have that freedom as an HQ marine. That’s the truth of it.

As such, I don’t see any parallel between G-5 and Marine Headquarters. They are in effect separate in both function and identity

It might sound crazy, but I could even see it as a small scale version of Imu + 5 Gorosei (G5, eh?), because I believe they are not the final antagonists, but uncovering their secret is what will lead to the structural change of roles in the series, just like it did with Smoker.

Interesting thought, but I lean more towards the notion I described above that G5 parallels the “Hot Gates” the Spartans has as their battle station from the invading forces of the east, the Persians, which G5 is a representation of the wall that separates the New World of “pirates” (Persians) from the civilised world , ie Paradise (western antiquity)

You seem to like Vergo a lot, so feel free to theorize about him all you want, I'll surely read your pieces.
If you're interested in going beyond Vergo as a character and more into his metaphorical value, you can count me in! I think there might be a lot to it.

I mean I sure do, well I liked Smoker a lot as he is the rival of Luffy and Vergo showed superior powers to him, not due to having a greater df or something like that but due to sheer skill and power difference.

I am very interested to theorise and discuss his metaphorical significance. I had never heard about the panda metaphor I like that a lot that you brought a new idea to the table and it’s interesting to delve more into!

One such thing I am open to discuss more is the relationship between bamboo, pandas and tigers for instance. Law represents a tiger you could argue (he is even called Torao which means tiger guy in Japanese) only it’s a snow leopard so in actuality not the same thing. Also coincidentally Zoro represents a tiger

Bamboo represents strength and resilience. It is tradition for Japanese swordsmen to test their cutting ability against bamboo.

Why did Oda not have Zolo face off against Vergo as this could have been a very iconic triumph of swordsmanship as this would mirror a historically and even contemporary significant event in Japanese swordsmanship. To boot, Zoro represents a tiger so it would have been perfect for the occasion.

I think a tiger taming the bamboo forest is a common symbol in Japan fortigers being the king of the foresr

I think it’s obvious that Oda teases the ideas but it never happened because Zoro is way too weak at this point in the story.

As a final test for Zoro to test his swordsmanship it might be he faces Vergo’s bamboo and haki that was denoted as especially tough.

but isn’t Vergo just dead?

He's a done deal as far as I'm concerned,

Remember this? The axoxolot fruit was eaten by Caesar's smiley pet, but being that it died, the fruit has returned into circulation. Oda likes to go full circle with devil fruits, so at the end of the day someone will inherit this ability.

And then coincidentally into a fruit nearby

An axolotl is actually a salamander, and a unique one at that being that it is the only animal with the ability to regenerate and regrow limbs, even inner organs owing to their incredible powerful immune system (as such also making it a hugely researched animals)! Vergo will be able to reconstitute his body parts with this fruit and do more to boot lol.

It is so laughably obvious Oda is aiming for Vergo to get sliced by Laws awakening (him calling him a tiger just to justify a symbolic connection between him and Vergo) when in fact Oda just wants to give Vergo the axolotl fruit and him being sliced up like that is just a reason for him to have it.

How does he survive the radioactive SAD? Obviously by going full body haki which is what he was hyped for by Caesar and Doflamingo

That’s what I will say for now but now there is a lot more to the topic of Vergo that I won’t go into now for brevity’s sake. Hope you found this enlightening and spurred some ideas.

I might have to edit later

 

[Zmsp]

I’m not sure how though.

I actually meant geographically, but I guess I didn't put much thought into it, because that would actually be G-1. I guess "mirrors it narratively" is what I wanted to say, but even that might be a poor choice of words. It's easier to provide context: Marineford was the last stronghold in Paradise, and we pick up where we left off with G-5, given that Fishman Island has no marine intervention. That's part of the reason I said it could give us some insight into the inner workings of the upper echelons of the World Government -> Marineford was mostly focused on the military aspect of marines, and Punk Hazard actually is where we're shown that there's more to it than that.

This is a brilliant addition, and I'm glad you brought it up, because I don't think it's a coincidence at all! What I do believe is that you're missing out by focusing on Vergo as a character and not looking at the bigger picture, and please don't take offense by my words, I'm just trying to make a case for the importance of looking at things holistically. I mentioned how Pandas are usually some sort of overarching villain, and how Vergo and G-5 could even give us a glimpse at Imu and the Gorosei, so let's look at the date G-5 was founded: May 5th.

May 5th, or Cinco de Mayo, is the date that celebrates Mexican victory over Napoleon III, in the Battle of Puebla. They say General Ignacio Zaragoza, with 600 man under his arm, defeated the french troops with over 6.500 men. He eventually died soon after, and the french occupied Mexico City after a second incursion, but it's still an iconic date. Remember how I mentioned that you could find the same Panda motif in different characters, and they would have a similar trend in terms of narrative? You mentioned Leonidas the 300 men that stopped the Persian incursion, but that's just another potential source of inspiration for the underlying theme: martyrdom and rebellion against an overwhelming foe.

It just so happens that May 5th is Luffy's birthday!

Caesar is named after an Emperor, so he's the Napoleon, and I've already talked about the Vergo/Law motifs and their roles.

That's why I'm saying that Vergo is inconsequential, even if he returns and has one or two moments in the sunlight. Things are escalating, and we have bigger Napoleons/Caesars on the horizon, like the ones who're actually rulling the world, so we should take as much information as we can from Vergo, and start looking for the character that will represent an escalated version of what he is in the grand scheme of things.

This might've been a bit convoluted, but I hope I got my point across!

 

[Critical mindset]

I'm just trying to make a case for the importance of looking at things holistically.

Thanks I’m glad you do, that’s exactly the type of discourse I want from this

May 5th, or Cinco de Mayo, is the date that celebrates Mexican victory over Napoleon III, in the Battle of Puebla. They say General Ignacio Zaragoza, with 600 man under his arm, defeated the french troops with over 6.500 men. He eventually died soon after, and the french occupied Mexico City after a second incursion, but it's still an iconic date. Remember how I mentioned that you could find the same Panda motif in different characters, and they would have a similar trend in terms of narrative? You mentioned Leonidas the 300 men that stopped the Persian incursion, but that's just another potential source of inspiration for the underlying theme: martyrdom and rebellion against an overwhelming foe.

It just so happens that May 5th is Luffy's birthday!

Caesar is named after an Emperor, so he's the Napoleon, and I've already talked about the Vergo/Law motifs and their roles.

Wow, well this is very (excuse my French) fucking interesting I must say

Wow, so G-5 really is the equivalent of the 300 Spartans without any question, the connection is shocking. I like this

That is the main takeaway with the Cinco de Mayo, may 5th, connection here. Not to gas up Vergo too much or anything but Luffy’s birthday plays on this epic historic battle of freedom against, like you said, an overwhelming foe, then that’s what G-5 is doing with Vergo at the helm, now Smoker. It battles an overwhelming foe which are the forces of pirates in the New World represented as the Yonkous

The G-5 importance is absolutely insane right now. It really is the real military arm of the marines, it being founded on the same birthday as Luffy means Oda symbolically makes it the marine equivalent of Luffy: a liberator.

I mean I’ve always said Smoker is Luffy’s rival for many reasons, now I see for a fact that he will be thanks to this startling piece of evidence which I owe to you to you so hat off to you pal !

Smoker liberated Logue town from pirates, the very birthplace of the New Pirate Age. What he made with Loguetown is what he wants to do with the New World, so G-5 really fits the bill narratively, symbolically and practically for this (it having a lot of military power an so far we haven’t even seen the leaders of unit 2,3,4 and 5 yet).

If you want you could maybe expand on the “panda” theme a little bit because I find it interesting and maybe that’s the more convoluted part in all of this

That's why I'm saying that Vergo is inconsequential, even if he returns and has one or two moments in the sunlight. Things are escalating, and we have bigger Napoleons/Caesars on the horizon, like the ones who're actually rulling the world, so we should take as much information as we can from Vergo, and start looking for the character that will represent an escalated version of what he is in the grand scheme of things.

That’s cool and I like your way of seeing things.

Your open-mindedness and intellect have uncovered many interesting parallels and connections I find absolutely astonishing and I’m very appreciative for your takes and ideas!

Man, if you got some more ideas please share, I love this kind of (extremely rare) discourse on this topic

 

[Critical mindset]

I think there's meaning to it, but it won't relate to Vergo himself.
I think the similarities between Dressrosa and Alabasta are quite obvious, and Alabasta turned out to be very important in the long run. Vergo is a metaphor for something else, just like Doflamingo. He's part of an archtype, and eventually we'll find out his more important equivalent.

Vergo was an infiltrator, someone who played an important role in a grand scheme, and part of the reason Rosinante died.
He also represents an important animal in the series: he's the demon bamboo and a messy eater -> He's a Panda.

Other important Pandas in the series include:
- Spandam, the de facto leader of Cypher Pol 9, who ended up being responsible for the death of Tom, and part of a grand scheme that included infiltrating Galley La in order to get the blueprints for Pluton.
- Kuma, someone whose importance needs no mention, but remains unrevealed. He's also part of a scheme that we don't yet understand.
- Pandaman, an easter egg, but I'll leave this one out.

See where I'm going with this? You find a common thread in three characters, their animal motif, and suddenly there's an ongoing trend in each of their plots.

Perhaps the death of a child or an abduction are related to Kuma and his reasons for working with the government, or he's actually not who we think he is.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 4, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 4, 2023 ---

Oh, I forgot to mention Law, who's a snow leopard. I've been doing some research on Pandas and they're frequently syncretized with big cats in mythology, and the snow leopard is one of them. Law also has some spatial distortion type of fruit that resembles Kuma in some ways. I know that we've grown fond of Law, but he's a bit of a tyrant in his own right.

The Law & Vergo dynamic might actually give us something on Kuma, rather than Vergo alone. They both occupied the Heart seat.

Doflamingo has a strong plot going for him about wanting to take down the tenriybito. Vergo helped him by advancing high up in the military. What he lacks is someone that can do the same in the actual governmental apparatus?

Supposing that Vergo has a child and Oda is clearly saving him or her for hype, there’s where my thought came in that Vergo has a child that has been trained by the Doffy family and managed to infiltrate higher up in government, mirroring the journey of father Vergo.

That gave me the idea Vergo’s child could be a holy knight

However I like your idea better with the panda connection, Oda could’ve hinted at something with that

 

[Zmsp]

Your open-mindedness and intellect have uncovered many interesting parallels and connections I find absolutely astonishing and I’m very appreciative for your takes and ideas!

Man, if you got some more ideas please share, I love this kind of (extremely rare) discourse on this topic

Thank you for the kind words, it's very uplifting to hear that.
I wouldn't know where to start... I've got plenty of weird ideas and some of them are just subjective conjectures that don't really have a structured cadence, or at least not one that I'm confident about. Is there something specific you'd like to ask about aside from the panda motif?

Not to gas up Vergo too much or anything but Luffy’s birthday plays on this epic historic battle of freedom against, like you said, an overwhelming foe, then that’s what G-5 is doing with Vergo at the helm, now Smoker.

Well, that wasn't where I was going with Vergo, but rather the opposite -> We're now following Luffy and his journey, so he mostly resolves these deeply rooted schemes that could give us a glimpse at more primordial conflicts and their dynamics. If the current system is inherently flawed, it's precisely because the rebellions of the past were not sucessful, and a character like Vergo, who was occupying an important position while being an inside agent of a scheming Joker, might've been the reason for that.

The transition between Vergo and Smoker is supposed to represent the restructure of the marine hierarchy from the self serving tyrants to people who actually have integrity, and the irony of it is that a Pirate was responsible for it. Again, Vergo is pretty inconsequential, because G-5 is just a story within a story, and the real restructuring needs to come from higher up.

See my point?

If you want you could maybe expand on the “panda” theme a little bit because I find it interesting and maybe that’s the more convoluted part in all of this

I'll organize some thoughts on the matter and elaborate on it later. There are plenty of loose concepts and ideas that I need to articulate in order to make it something worth reading.

 

[Fox666]

Quite sure the Holy Knights will all be Tenryuubitos like the Gorosei

You do have a point about Doflamingo's plan. Somehow when he was 10 he discovered about the National Treasure and escaped from Mary Geoise. I don't think he did it alone.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

My guess is that it is a reference to Senior Pink’s story, and we know that Vergo was lying to cover for Joker’s Punk Hazard shadow operations.

This. Vergo was a great actor. I'm sure he knew how to talk to Tashigi.

Also, while it can be possible he had a child, it seems very improbable that that child is part of the 9 holy knights. I say this because if I recall correctly, Vergo isn't even 30 yet. Even if he had a kid at 15 that kid probably wouldn't even be 15 right now...
There are some children protege like Lucci or Big Mom (lol does she count?) However these are rare and few in between but let's say the kid was a protege but even then, they'd likely not be enlisted as a holy knight due to lack of experience which takes time. I doubt Vergo's side characterness has enough pull in this story to produce a holy knight.

 

[Critical mindset]

I say this because if I recall correctly, Vergo isn't even 30 yet.

Vergo is 41, same as Doffy. The same can’t be said for the other executives. Oda made Vergo and Doflamingo as brothers

I doubt Vergo's side characterness has enough pull in this story to produce a holy knight.

Even though Vergo clearly started from a kneeling position to Doflamingo, a place of submission, Doflamingo called him partner. This shows that Doflamingo respects Vergo so much for his fighting skill and strength that he views him as his equal , when he can just keep him as subordinate.

Compare this relationship with that of King and Kaido

King has been with Kaido for 30 years or more, more or less same time as Vergo has been with Doffy. Over this time Vergo became an equal to Doffy. King on other hand has not earned any special rank or position, not even any different distinctions from Queen. King and Kaido even share a similar background but King nevertheless didn’t even earn any special position in the crew, as in Kaido’s eyes he holds the same rank as Queen and Jack

King from the flashback shows that he is a worshipper of Kaido, same way Vergo worshipped Doflamingo. You can say both started also from a worshipping and kneeling position but Vergo climbs in rank and respect to become an equal in Doflamingo’s eyes.

Despite there even existing a sentimental bond King shares with Kaido from their experiences in Punk Hazard, King is not special in any way. The fact that any Flying six can challenge his position anytime makes this obvious. His status is not sacred. Even though King addressed only Sasaki and Who’s Who as the only potential challengers, it still shows that in terms of power level King see them as posing a challenge to him. King is comparable to Whos who in power but CP0 said Who’s who would never survive against Jimbei.

King has not shown he even earned any great respect among his foot soldiers like Vergo did, who called him father. vergo’s sway with his subordinates is pure charisma and power that they truly respect

so Vergo might be a side character in your eyes but the comparison between King and Vergo in this regard reveals a lot about their difference in power, standing and perceived importance.

This. Vergo was a great actor. I'm sure he knew how to talk to Tashigi

Yeah maybe but it still feels like a cop-out. If you were right then when Tashigi asks the g-5 soldiers why Vergo leaves base so often, they reply that he takes care of his “sick sister”. If they would have said “sick child” then point taken this line he delivers to Tashigi was just a bulkshit lie.

Remember that Vergo was veey wary of Smoker discovering his true identity, so him making up another string of lies involving having a child, this doesn’t make any sense would it? It just makes it harder to keep his story straight

The line is not just bs, it means something, I’ve heard two good takes so far aside from the father angle

Quite sure the Holy Knights will all be Tenryuubitos like the Gorosei

Yeah I believe so also, but Oda is hax and come up with whatever. If Vergo truly has a child then Oda would’ve revealed it already. If not he is saving him or her for later hype. I can’t see what else would be the hype for his kid if not this.

 

[Critical mindset]

Well, that wasn't where I was going with Vergo, but rather the opposite -> We're now following Luffy and his journey, so he mostly resolves these deeply rooted schemes that could give us a glimpse at more primordial conflicts and their dynamics. If the current system is inherently flawed, it's precisely because the rebellions of the past were not sucessful, and a character like Vergo, who was occupying an important position while being an inside agent of a scheming Joker, might've been the reason for that

That Vergo in his command over G5 symbolises a dynamic that existed in the past, that is definitely not impossible , so we could both be right.

Aside from helping Doffy out and killing G5 soldiers, the symbolism here is not that Vergo reflects anything defective, rather he is an absolute GOD for the marines and I mean that literally

The G5 attitude reflects and epitomises the entire marines view of Vergo (naturally G5 are more fond of Vergo) , so them “worshipping” him like a father” is the equivalent of the marines viewing Vergo like he is the God, holy father, of marines, same way you would say “Messi is the god of fotboll” or something like that, Vergo had the same type of status as a marine officer. So while Garp is the hero of the marines, Vergo is the God of the marines

Luffy and G-5 are paralleled because Luffy has the Sun God fruit. He is a messiah and so on, he possesses the literal god fruit. G-5 is based on the “Hot Gates” where the 300 Spartans held their ground against the Persians, Vergo represents their leader, liberating the New World from pirate scum , ie overwhelming foe like you said.

To bolster this take even further, based on the translation of his Vivre Card, he is a highly accomplished and decorated marine, and all real translators (not counting Arthur who doesn’t even speak Japanese) say Vergo was described as having a higher grade of armament haki , “super hardening” as opposed to just regular hardening @TitaniumOxide in regards to Vergo being a side character

G-5 was a feared institution and highly productive one with Vergo at the helm with even Smoker being called “impressive” by the New World brokers that watched Caesars live stream. Yes it’s flawed that he helps Doffy and killed g5 soldiers to keep his identity intact, but that aside Vergo is so strong Gorosei desperately need his aid to combat the yonkous

I think you’re right that Doflamingo represents a mini-version of IM and we can learn a lot about IM hit by studying Doffy and his crew

The transition between Vergo and Smoker is supposed to represent the restructure of the marine hierarchy from the self serving tyrants to people who actually have integrity, and the irony of it is that a Pirate was responsible for it. Again, Vergo is pretty inconsequential, because G-5 is just a story within a story, and the real restructuring needs to come from higher up.

See my point?

I agree with you. However the parallels keep stacking up and I while I can agree that Vergo might not have a super important role necessarily, if you would agree that Vergo parallels Luffy and that he probably will he revealed as the “God of the marines” in the future then he will probably have some pretty kick-ass moments in the story, ie Vergo is relegated to a fighting role and that’s pretty much what suits him and that’s all I want lol

What do you think about Vergo rescuing Doffy and the Donquixote family from prison? Vergo will have to defeat Magellan and whoever else might actually be the actual boss of Impel Down with his super hardening haki (no one else has this description of their haki in the vivre card which includes Garp and Kaido)

Vergo I think will habe some moment that will forever enshrine him as a bad mfer when he defeats some really powerful people like say Magellan, which I think will definitely happen. I mean if Vergo is a god he will have to fight the king of hell, so that’s what Zoro calls himself nowadays so I’ve heard so I could see that he becomes the final obstacle for Zolo if Doflamingo ends up as the final villain Luffy has to face to attain the One Piece treasure, but then I’d rather be more content if the God of the Marines, Vergo, fights the king of Hell, Magellan, to free his comrades.

Speaking of Magellan, holy knights are ordered to kill Doffy in prison but Magellan is powerful enough to keep Doffy safe. Yeah that’s the guy Vergo will defeat…

What do you think about all of that?

 

[Zmsp]

What do you think about all of that?

I think the obsession with Vergo takes away most of the fun of the argument, at least for me.
I'm glad you've gotten some ideas and you're having fun theorizing about a character you like so much, but I've said my piece on that matter, and going back to Vergo the character drains all the fun out of it. I mean no offense, I understand it's the opposite for you, but to each their own, and it's all about having fun!

I wanted to point out the importance of a common animal motif, but Kuma and Law are the important character to theorize about, or the Doflamingo patriarch, not Vergo, so I don't really have anything else to add to this thread. I just wanted to point out that he had some metaphorical value, and that's it. He probably has more than I had initially thought, but it's not about him, and it never was.

Could he come back and have a moment or two? Yeah, maybe, I wouldn't bet against it, but he's just a Daz Bones at this point.

 

[kkck]

Hmmm, I am not sure I buy G5 being THAT special compared to other marine bases. It's special in regards to it having a mostly violent and insane members who IIRC were former pirates and also because it is the base closest to the red line, meaning it's the best location for someone to monitor pirates coming in to the new world. On the other hand, it's not a marine base which you'd expect to have constant conflict with yonko given that yonko seem more influential deeper in the new world. With that in mind G5 is a marine base of relatively high importance with a strategic location but it mostly deals with rookies entering the new world.

Power wise I think vergo is mostly overrated because the power scaling didn't do him any favors. Vergo is without a doubt a skilled haki use, evidenced by him showing multiple forms of advanced haki (full body hardening, proyection) but... he just isn't a powerful haki user. Power wise I would place him well beneath pretty much any yonko executive/commander type character. He'd make for an ok rook in big mom's crew. Caesar did hype vergo but there's the consideration here that caesar just isn't very powerful. His only claim to fame is an exceptionally powerful devil fruit which he is too weak to fully abuse.

As for the gorosei being aware that vergo was working for doflamingo... I like the idea, though it's a shame there's not much more evidence to support it. The world government has insanely convenient intelligence gathering capacity, it's weird that they didn't catch on to vergo's past with doflamingo. It'd make sense if doflamingo used his pull in the world government to supress this.

 

[Zmsp]

Vergo was a pirate who infiltrated the marines, and Rosinante was a marine who infiltrated pirates.

Kuma probably has some important siblings.

 

[Critical mindset]

I think the obsession with Vergo takes away most of the fun of the argument, at least for me.
I'm glad you've gotten some ideas and you're having fun theorizing about a character you like so much, but I've said my piece on that matter, and going back to Vergo the character drains all the fun out of it. I mean no offense, I understand it's the opposite for you, but to each their own, and it's all about having fun!

I understand you want to look at the grand scheme of things and to this end don’t emphasise too much the individuals that make up this story. That is respectable and I share that approach but like you I’m all about what is true and what isn’t, and in this case Vergo is sadly an overlooked character, but now you opened up angles of looking at Vergo that gives him another type of importance that can’t be denied. Like I share your approach of wanting to look at the bigger picture , but here are the facts summarised about what we’ve found out together , so much kudos !

5th of May is the “founding date” of both G-5 and Luffy. —> means they symbolically are of the same makeup. I wouldn’t say this if this was something rather insignificant like the Pumpkin cafe in Sky Island, for instance. This is a marine base with a strategic location and military resources in the New world, now headed by Smoker, so Oda clearly is making a point about they sharing the same quality.

5th of May is a date that is celebrated as a date of liberation and overcoming an overwhelming foe - Mexicans defeated the French in a battle where they were outnumbered 10 to 1.

—> Luffy stands for freedom and overcoming an overwhelming adversity , this is what epitomises Luffy —> thus G-5 also stands for overcoming an overwhelming foe

—> The fact that really hammers down that G-5 and Luffy share the same symbolic importance in this respect is the fact that G5 has 300 men, which is a direct reference to the 300 Spartan resistance against the Persians , ie the “Hot Gates” was the junction between western antiquity and the east; G-5 is situated between Paradise and the New World. Undeniable parallel

let me add one detail: Luffy is powerful but rather goofy character in many ways. This can be compared to G-5 that is powerful overall but whose foot soldiers might be ok strong (like gifter level strong) but lacks discipline and do a lot of immoral acts like burning pirates over an open fire, use them as fishing bait and so on. G-5 is independent from HQ and do things their own way, same thing can be said about Luffy.

Now Luffy is a messiah and possess the Sun God fruit —> Vergo is “worshipped like a father” , ie he is a “God”-figure in effect

These parralells are just too strong to be denied. Vergo really is a character that Oda distinguishes for hype and importance, I can’t look at this and say Oda doesnot strongly is drawing parallels between Vergo and Luffy. This is not something I’ve ever believed or said before but your evidence really opened my eyes to this very real possibility. Now I firmly believe it. It’s not just intuition but the parallels are just very convincingly pointing to this

I don’t want to deny this parallel because it focuses the lens a little too much on Vergo , I think that If this in someway would help you to come up with other ideas then maybe it doesn’t need to “take away the fun of the argument” but instead spur you take a different vantage point in your analysis. Just saying…

I very much enjoy our discussion regardless because you are of an open mind and you are very clever and intelligent in your analysis. Many people are not like that. I really appreciate it!

Hmmm, I am not sure I buy G5 being THAT special compared to other marine bases. It's special in regards to it having a mostly violent and insane members who IIRC were former pirates and also because it is the base closest to the red line, meaning it's the best location for someone to monitor pirates coming in to the new world. On the other hand, it's not a marine base which you'd expect to have constant conflict with yonko given that yonko seem more influential deeper in the new world. With that in mind G5 is a marine base of relatively high importance with a strategic location but it mostly deals with rookies entering the new world.

Well think about why Smoker wanted to transition to G-5. Smoker outright says he is search of status

Smoker wants to keep pace with Luffy, then G-5 was the best option for him.

Ask yourself why Lizaru don’t know Marco’s power? Lizaru who is an admiral or 50+ age. Because Lizaru is a HQ marine and he haven’t had to fight WBP or many Yonkous for that matter that are in the New World before. Marineford is in paradise

If G-5 wasn’t important, then why was Zephyr in G-5 his entire career before turning admiral?

G-5 polices the New World. Marine HQ is more about general safekeeping.

Power wise I think vergo is mostly overrated because the power scaling didn't do him any favors. Vergo is without a doubt a skilled haki use, evidenced by him showing multiple forms of advanced haki (full body hardening, proyection) but... he just isn't a powerful haki user.

Stop coping and coming up with pathetic headcanon

Why isn’t he a powerful CoA user? You don’t have any answer other than you are just biased lol. What is your evidence or source to thinking this other than your asshole?

Isn’t this Big Mom punching Law who isn’t using Full Bidy haki to defend himself?

She used life force, soul power, to turn herself into a giant, which means she has extra physical power behind her punches in addition to hardening her fists but still Law can hold out her punishment

Vergo casually hits Law without putting power behind his punches, so it’s just the hardness that brutalises Law. You can see Law has too cuts in his face from where he hit Law

“Big Mom couldn’t use her hips or bodyweight behind her punches” yeah good excuse but She turned herself into a fucking giant so she got extra physical force from that

You can see from Vergo’s expression that he isn’t putting physical force behind his punches

Why Law takes so much more damage from Vergo than he receives from BM is the hardness of Vergo’s haki

Vergo dishes out more DC than Big Mom in spite of Big Mom using tons more attack power than Vergo do, which means Vergo’s armament haki is a lot stronger than Big Mom’s

In addition he broke Sanji’s fibula which none has done before or since in a fighting style he isn’t accustomed to using; he obliterated Smokers weapon in one fell swoop, he also was shown to do a powerful shockwave that received a panel even though this isn’t even an attack, Oda just felt the need to highlight the nature of this shockwave

His only claim to fame is an exceptionally powerful devil fruit which he is too weak to fully abuse.

You are just talking shit. Caesar is one of the brightest minds in the world, comparable to Vegapunk. He knows more about haki than Kkck does. In addition to Doflamingo who hyped Vergo by saying “in power and standing you are nothing to Vergo” and Law is a warlord

Caesar is also shown to have rivalry with Judge in his flashback cover story , so he is minimum judge level

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 6, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 6, 2023 ---

As for the gorosei being aware that vergo was working for doflamingo... I like the idea, though it's a shame there's not much more evidence to support it. The world government has insanely convenient intelligence gathering capacity, it's weird that they didn't catch on to vergo's past with doflamingo. It'd make sense if doflamingo used his pull in the world government to supress this.

It makes sense that they know because there is no other sensical explanation why Smoker dropped his marine coat which literally represents “Pride”

 

[Critical mindset]

Vergo was a pirate who infiltrated the marines, and Rosinante was a marine who infiltrated pirates.

Kuma probably has some important siblings.

It could be it is a reference to Kuma, or a reference to even Senior Pink. The panda connection is a valid motif you brought up

Then again, “you’ll understand if you become a mother one day” is just a weird thing to tell anyone if you aren’t a parent yourself. It just isn’t something anyone would say. You would say it differently

The fact that you brought up the panda connection could mean Vergo like Kuma has a child. In addition both Vergo and Kuma are infiltrators, and Kuma’s child did manage to infiltrate the WG during reverie and even has ties to Gorosei connected to her devil fruit. Perhaps Vergo’s kid also infiltrated, like a Holy knight would be wild.

The fact that Kuma and Vergo share similar narratives and animal motifs renders the connection to Vergo also having a child plausible. Perhaps the made-up story of the “sick sister” he used as cover explains something about his child. Kuma and Bonney has deep ties to one another. If Vergo and Kuma really are mirror images of each other, Vergo having a child makes all the more sense

 

[kkck]

Well think about why Smoker wanted to transition to G-5. Smoker outright says he is search of status

Smoker wants to keep pace with Luffy, then G-5 was the best option for him.

Ask yourself why Lizaru don’t know Marco’s power? Lizaru who is an admiral or 50+ age. Because Lizaru is a HQ marine and he haven’t had to fight WBP or many Yonkous for that matter that are in the New World before. Marineford is in paradise

If G-5 wasn’t important, then why was Zephyr in G-5 his entire career before turning admiral?

G-5 polices the New World. Marine HQ is more about general safekeeping.

Stop coping and coming up with pathetic headcanon

Why isn’t he a powerful CoA user? You don’t have any answer other than you are just biased lol. What is your evidence or source to thinking this other than your asshole?

Isn’t this Big Mom punching Law who isn’t using Full Bidy haki to defend himself?

She used life force, soul power, to turn herself into a giant, which means she has extra physical power behind her punches in addition to hardening her fists but still Law can hold out her punishment

Vergo casually hits Law without putting power behind his punches, so it’s just the hardness that brutalises Law. You can see Law has too cuts in his face from where he hit Law

“Big Mom couldn’t use her hips or bodyweight behind her punches” yeah good excuse but She turned herself into a fucking giant so she got extra physical force from that

You can see from Vergo’s expression that he isn’t putting physical force behind his punches

Why Law takes so much more damage from Vergo than he receives from BM is the hardness of Vergo’s haki

Vergo dishes out more DC than Big Mom in spite of Big Mom using tons more attack power than Vergo do, which means Vergo’s armament haki is a lot stronger than Big Mom’s

In addition he broke Sanji’s fibula which none has done before or since in a fighting style he isn’t accustomed to using; he obliterated Smokers weapon in one fell swoop, he also was shown to do a powerful shockwave that received a panel even though this isn’t even an attack, Oda just felt the need to highlight the nature of this shockwave

You are just talking shit. Caesar is one of the brightest minds in the world, comparable to Vegapunk. He knows more about haki than Kkck does. In addition to Doflamingo who hyped Vergo by saying “in power and standing you are nothing to Vergo” and Law is a warlord

Caesar is also shown to have rivalry with Judge in his flashback cover story , so he is minimum judge level

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 6, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 6, 2023 ---

It makes sense that they know because there is no other sensical explanation why Smoker dropped his marine coat which literally represents “Pride”

My point is not that G5 isn't special, just that it isn't THAT special. It's still ultimately a marine base that primarily deals with pirates entering the new world. From a personel angle we have seen it had 2 vice admirals, tashigi, and the 300 personel and 6 battleships. Which is not nothing but it's also not insane or something over which the balance of the world hangs over.

Wait, really are comparing vergo, who probably was not even the strongest person in doflamingo's crew (that distinction goes to pica), to big mom? Law simply became stronger in between punk hazard and wano. We see his increasing power over how he is able to handle increasingly larger rooms as the story advances. It makes no sense to compare law as he was at punk hazard to how he was at wano. Heck, law at dressrosa could be handled by doflamingo with ease in any solo matchup, a clear difference from law at wano who as you say could eat punches from big mom. Big mom would one shot 10 vergos in her sleep lol.

Did you miss caesar's story arc? Caesar along with judge and queen are sad losers who are driven primarily by their envy of vegapunk's genius and overall feeling of inadequacy. They are miserable, petty and small minded fools who in their desperation resorted to incredible cruelty in an attempt to replicate 1% of vegapunk's genius and to varying degrees they all failed. Vegapunk cloned kaido's fruit before punk hazard originally exploded. Meanwhile years later all caesar had was smiles, shitty knockoffs with a mere 10% success rate. Don't get me wrong, smile users still made for a reasonably powerful force for kaido but while vegapunk deemed his fish fish fruit a failure over it being pink caesar was calling himself greater than vegapunk over a much inferior product. Caesar is smart of course but he is categorically and demonstrably inferior to vegapunk. Judge is less of a loser in a sense as his cloning technology and weapons actually work more than 10% of the time. However it's pretty clear that egghead is years ahead of anything judge has now. With queen things are weirdly sad as right of the bat chopper pretty much calls his virus making subpar (I don't recall the exact word) and then proceeds to make a cure for it in the middle of a war. Otherwise he simply copied judge. Which is not nothing but in line with MADS folk being more sad than anything. Even in the cover stories the last we see of judge and caesar is them going "You know what? it's all vegapunk's fault". Which extremely pathetic considering how evidently vegapunk moved on from their nonsense decades ago.

 

[Vanshrimp]

among the secrets the WG trying to hide, is a continental drift. and the actual map different from the map of 1000 years ago.