TV House of The Dragon

[M3J]

Are we still shipping Rhaenyra and Alicent together?

 

[xi0]

Nettles being removed would be terrible, giving her plot to Rhaena (i'm assuming) would be worse. Seems like yet another way to make the Blacks seem "perfect" if there's nothing like that to drive a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Which I wouldn't know the logic behind that move unless it was that, except the parts where Daemon is portrayed in a far more violent and dastardly way than he is in F&B... idk. Nettles is among the best characters in those chapters really. The idea of a brown-skinned commoner bastard earning her power via sheer grit and willpower rather than inheriting it via birthright is the perfect contrast to the larger events in the story.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2024, Original Post Date: May 21, 2024 ---

I think this breaks down the change being a big mistake pretty well, but be warned that it contains spoilers for future stuff

 

[Rikudou King]

Are we still shipping Rhaenyra and Alicent together?

Always, especially with the implications from the actresses!

Nettles being removed would be terrible, giving her plot to Rhaena (i'm assuming) would be worse. Seems like yet another way to make the Blacks seem "perfect" if there's nothing like that to drive a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Which I wouldn't know the logic behind that move unless it was that, except the parts where Daemon is portrayed in a far more violent and dastardly way than he is in F&B... idk. Nettles is among the best characters in those chapters really. The idea of a brown-skinned commoner bastard earning her power via sheer grit and willpower rather than inheriting it via birthright is the perfect contrast to the larger events in the story.

In fairness, they seem to be trying to make both leads more "morally good" given what we saw at the end of last season and in the trailers. That said, I still don't believe the rumor... They've been expanding what the characters originally did without removing characters, don't see why that would change now.

 

[xi0]

Always, especially with the implications from the actresses!

I don't enjoy being a wet blanket and certainly it doesn't hurt the success of the show, but shipping culture is quite possibly the worst aspect of this series' community and most communities lol

In fairness, they seem to be trying to make both leads more "morally good" given what we saw at the end of last season and in the trailers. That said, I still don't believe the rumor... They've been expanding what the characters originally did without removing characters, don't see why that would change now.

Perhaps, but I fear it's leading them down a path where it'll make the characterization less logical. There's no real reason to "like" Alicent in the book because she's hardly a character and her grievances concern upholding feudalistic male primogeniture which is a horrible system of government. Rhaenyra is more personally aggrieved due to the succession, but she does nothing to "break the wheel" a la Dany or anything remotely like this. It's about her being personally slighted, not the fact that she's a woman. They're both shit in the end.

A character like Nettles is absolutely a requirement for a well-rounded story and simply giving the events in the story to Daemon's daughter doesn't accomplish anything that the character represents. So I hope it doesn't come to pass.

 

[Rikudou King]

I don't enjoy being a wet blanket and certainly it doesn't hurt the success of the show, but shipping culture is quite possibly the worst aspect of this series' community and most communities lol

Oh absolutely, I agree.

Perhaps, but I fear it's leading them down a path where it'll make the characterization less logical. There's no real reason to "like" Alicent in the book because she's hardly a character and her grievances concern upholding feudalistic male primogeniture which is a horrible system of government. Rhaenyra is more personally aggrieved due to the succession, but she does nothing to "break the wheel" a la Dany or anything remotely like this. It's about her being personally slighted, not the fact that she's a woman. They're both shit in the end.

A character like Nettles is absolutely a requirement for a well-rounded story and simply giving the events in the story to Daemon's daughter doesn't accomplish anything that the character represents. So I hope it doesn't come to pass.

I'm willing to give them a little faith, and while we gotta wait to see with Rhaenyra, I disagree about Alicent. As you mention, there's no reason to side with Alicent in the books, which is probably why they changed it in the show - not only giving her a legit reason to push for Aegon, but also making her less of a warmonger. Having them both believe they're trying to fulfill Viserys' prophecy is a whole lot more reasonable then the book's (kind of one-sided) fight for the throne.

And true, Nettles status as a peasant who claimed a dragon in a unique way, and her later shift upon witnessing how horrific a war between dragon-riders can be is absolutely special, and none of which could really be done with Rhaena. Even the idea itself wouldn't be unique, since we already had Aemond do the whole claiming a wild dragon thing. So no real reason an actual Targaryen would have to resort to taming a dragon with food when the show already show otherwise.

 

[xi0]

I'm willing to give them a little faith, and while we gotta wait to see with Rhaenyra, I disagree about Alicent. As you mention, there's no reason to side with Alicent in the books, which is probably why they changed it in the show - not only giving her a legit reason to push for Aegon, but also making her less of a warmonger. Having them both believe they're trying to fulfill Viserys' prophecy is a whole lot more reasonable then the book's (kind of one-sided) fight for the throne.

Yeah, but making her less of a warmonger kind of does what I mentioned fearing - making her characterization less logical. You don't usurp the throne via your son and do what you do if you want to avoid bloodshed. It makes her a stupid person, not a sympathetic one. You can't take this kind of stance and then let your monstrous children do what they do if you supposedly hold power as Queen dowager. Idk, I understand that what they're doing in adapting this material isn't easy and FAR less easy than GoT was, but idk. Pushing Alicent forward as a main character because of the casting of Olivia Cooke makes sense given her acting prowess, but it has the potential to make the narrative worse, and there's already things pointing in that direction potentially IMO.

And true, Nettles status as a peasant who claimed a dragon in a unique way, and her later shift upon witnessing how horrific a war between dragon-riders can be is absolutely special, and none of which could really be done with Rhaena. Even the idea itself wouldn't be unique, since we already had Aemond do the whole claiming a wild dragon thing. So no real reason an actual Targaryen would have to resort to taming a dragon with food when the show already show otherwise.

It's unclear to me whether they'd keep her as a full, random peasant or not. In the book it's quite unclear whether she's even a dragonseed in the first place, but since the Velaryons are black in the show, that angle might not exist.

But yeah, the angle of Rhaena driving Rhaenyra mad with jealousy or whatever would make no sense either. So I'm not sure what they'd do to replace that conflict between her and Daemon. Unless that's the entire point of him being a domestic abuser in the show? No idea.

 

[Rikudou King]

Yeah, but making her less of a warmonger kind of does what I mentioned fearing - making her characterization less logical. You don't usurp the throne via your son and do what you do if you want to avoid bloodshed. It makes her a stupid person, not a sympathetic one. You can't take this kind of stance and then let your monstrous children do what they do if you supposedly hold power as Queen dowager. Idk, I understand that what they're doing in adapting this material isn't easy and FAR less easy than GoT was, but idk. Pushing Alicent forward as a main character because of the casting of Olivia Cooke makes sense given her acting prowess, but it has the potential to make the narrative worse, and there's already things pointing in that direction potentially IMO.

But isn't that the point, she doesn't hold power? She was already in conflict powerwise with Otto, and we've seen her control over Aegon even before the crowning was kind of weak. Now that he's king, what control can she exert on him to actually keep him in line? Those on the Green side are loyal to the throne itself or house Hightower, so Aegon or Otto. The only people Alicent herself have are Criston and Larys, the former who's only on her side due to his hatred of Rhaenyra and the latter for questionable reasons. And I imagine, given the the prophecy, she probably believed that would be enough to justify things to Rhaenyra, given how she kept using it as justification with everyone else. I don't doubt it's suppose to come off as a little stupid of her, due to her not being this masterful political player.

It's unclear to me whether they'd keep her as a full, random peasant or not. In the book it's quite unclear whether she's even a dragonseed in the first place, but since the Velaryons are black in the show, that angle might not exist.

But yeah, the angle of Rhaena driving Rhaenyra mad with jealousy or whatever would make no sense either. So I'm not sure what they'd do to replace that conflict between her and Daemon. Unless that's the entire point of him being a domestic abuser in the show? No idea.

I only assume she won't be an actual Targaryen because both shows have given the Targaryen's a more mystical connection with the dragons, so Nettles working to tame Sheepstealer is out of character with what has been established. As for Rhaenyra, they could simply focus more on the unfaithfulness of Daemon as the trigger then on who he was unfaithful with.

 

[xi0]

But isn't that the point, she doesn't hold power? She was already in conflict powerwise with Otto, and we've seen her control over Aegon even before the crowning was kind of weak. Now that he's king, what control can she exert on him to actually keep him in line? Those on the Green side are loyal to the throne itself or house Hightower, so Aegon or Otto. The only people Alicent herself have are Criston and Larys, the former who's only on her side due to his hatred of Rhaenyra and the latter for questionable reasons. And I imagine, given the the prophecy, she probably believed that would be enough to justify things to Rhaenyra, given how she kept using it as justification with everyone else. I don't doubt it's suppose to come off as a little stupid of her, due to her not being this masterful political player.

It's possible that this is the angle they'll use, sure. But I mainly meant her role of prominence and influence. Having her sit in on council meetings, etc. The story doesn't require Alicent to be doing any of that, but casting Olivia Cooke kinda does.

In the show Alicent's actions lead to Aegon being crowned, and those actions are colored by her relationship with Rhaenyra. In the book, Alicent has little to do with Aegon being crowned (she may have even poisoned Viserys), it's Criston Cole who pushes Aegon to do it, hence him being called "Kingmaker". There's no doubt that the route the show takes can be an "improvement" over the book narrative, mainly because there's not much to it. But I'm just wary of some of the writing choices, especially those that benefit Alicent as a character and those that are detrimental to others in turn.

I only assume she won't be an actual Targaryen because both shows have given the Targaryen's a more mystical connection with the dragons, so Nettles working to tame Sheepstealer is out of character with what has been established. As for Rhaenyra, they could simply focus more on the unfaithfulness of Daemon as the trigger then on who he was unfaithful with.

The link between Targ and dragon isn't really a show thing tbh, it's from the books. It's usually accepted that Nettles was a dragonseed, in other words a bastard with valyrian lineage from the islands in Blackwater bay (Driftmark, Dragonstone, Claw Isle, etc). But that might not necessarily be the case given how she has to tame Sheepstealer. (There's also the matter of dragon-x genetics but those are book theories that obviously aren't canon - basically that the ability to hatch dragon eggs and be a dragonrider is a genetic trait past down by mothers).

I think it's important to Daemon's character who he is unfaithful with though. In the show he's a clear Valyrian-fetishist of some sort, so him just randomly being a whoremonger would make little sense IMO.

 

[Rikudou King]

It's possible that this is the angle they'll use, sure. But I mainly meant her role of prominence and influence. Having her sit in on council meetings, etc. The story doesn't require Alicent to be doing any of that, but casting Olivia Cooke kinda does.

In the show Alicent's actions lead to Aegon being crowned, and those actions are colored by her relationship with Rhaenyra. In the book, Alicent has little to do with Aegon being crowned (she may have even poisoned Viserys), it's Criston Cole who pushes Aegon to do it, hence him being called "Kingmaker". There's no doubt that the route the show takes can be an "improvement" over the book narrative, mainly because there's not much to it. But I'm just wary of some of the writing choices, especially those that benefit Alicent as a character and those that are detrimental to others in turn.

Fair enough. I think another big factor is probably they want someone to be the face of the Green fraction, and she's the best choice morally compared to Aegon and the work for the relationship with Rhaenyra has already been done.

The link between Targ and dragon isn't really a show thing tbh, it's from the books. It's usually accepted that Nettles was a dragonseed, in other words a bastard with valyrian lineage from the islands in Blackwater bay (Driftmark, Dragonstone, Claw Isle, etc). But that might not necessarily be the case given how she has to tame Sheepstealer. (There's also the matter of dragon-x genetics but those are book theories that obviously aren't canon - basically that the ability to hatch dragon eggs and be a dragonrider is a genetic trait past down by mothers).

I think it's important to Daemon's character who he is unfaithful with though. In the show he's a clear Valyrian-fetishist of some sort, so him just randomly being a whoremonger would make little sense IMO.

Then maybe I'm misremembering, but in the books wasn't it shown with Daenerys and implied elsewhere that their control isn't as innate, like Daenerys has trouble making Drogon obey her several times. The show makes it seem like they have no trouble controlling dragons, so Nettles going through what she did to get one makes me think they would leave it more in doubt. And I agree. There are so many hoops they would have to jump through just to get to the canonical ending. The only other option I could imagine is they bring back the whole "random madness" thing...

 

[xi0]

Fair enough. I think another big factor is probably they want someone to be the face of the Green fraction, and she's the best choice morally compared to Aegon and the work for the relationship with Rhaenyra has already been done.

Them making that choice for moral reasons is kind of the issue I have with it, yeah. The Green's lacking a similarly "aggrieved" foil to Rhaenyra is not to the detriment of the story and it doesn't preclude the story being morally gray vs morally gray either IMO. But it's the choice they've made and I think it's mostly been one of the show's strengths. But yeah, we'll see where it goes.

Then maybe I'm misremembering, but in the books wasn't it shown with Daenerys and implied elsewhere that their control isn't as innate, like Daenerys has trouble making Drogon obey her several times. The show makes it seem like they have no trouble controlling dragons, so Nettles going through what she did to get one makes me think they would leave it more in doubt. And I agree. There are so many hoops they would have to jump through just to get to the canonical ending. The only other option I could imagine is they bring back the whole "random madness" thing...

Dany doesn't have dragontamers or the Dragonpit. Whatever is known about hatching and riding dragons is completely lost to Dany when she hatches them. So her having less of a handle on it makes sense IMO, regardless of an innate connection or lack thereof. How magical it is or isn't can be up for debate maybe but there's a reason why Dany was able to hatch them and no one else was able to for a long time (they're very likely eggs from Dreamfyre, so we're talking 170ish years).

 

[Rikudou King]

Talking with a friend, an interesting point was brought up. Perhaps the increase focus on the Fire and Ice prophecy is what will be used to start Rhaenyra's madness - Afterall, if she learns that Alicent knows of the prophecy, something even Daemon wasn't told, it will likely lead her to believe her father really did change his mind and will ruin her trust in others.

Dany doesn't have dragontamers or the Dragonpit. Whatever is known about hatching and riding dragons is completely lost to Dany when she hatches them. So her having less of a handle on it makes sense IMO, regardless of an innate connection or lack thereof. How magical it is or isn't can be up for debate maybe but there's a reason why Dany was able to hatch them and no one else was able to for a long time (they're very likely eggs from Dreamfyre, so we're talking 170ish years).

Well she had knowledge thanks to what Viserys told her, something the show kind of skipped over. That's kind of my point, the books imply there was a degree of actual taming involved in controlling the dragons, whereas the show makes it more of a natural ability.

 

[xi0]

Talking with a friend, an interesting point was brought up. Perhaps the increase focus on the Fire and Ice prophecy is what will be used to start Rhaenyra's madness - Afterall, if she learns that Alicent knows of the prophecy, something even Daemon wasn't told, it will likely lead her to believe her father really did change his mind and will ruin her trust in others.

How would Alicent know of the prophecy? Maybe something slipped my mind there.

Well she had knowledge thanks to what Viserys told her, something the show kind of skipped over. That's kind of my point, the books imply there was a degree of actual taming involved in controlling the dragons, whereas the show makes it more of a natural ability.

Viserys has no special knowledge of dragons as far as we know. He was only 8 years old when he went into exile and the last dragon died 120+ years before he was born. Or at least, if Viserys has knowledge of dragons then it's not anything he told Dany about. Plus, if he had such valuable knowledge about them he wouldn't have attempted to steal Dany's eggs and sell them to buy an army, he would have seen their value on their own and he would have tried to hatch them or told Dany how to do it, etc.

The books really allow for both ways of thinking in regards to dragons. That there is a genetics-based element to hatching and/or riding dragons and that there is a method to tending to them and caring for them. There's ways of thinking about it that are akin to what skinchangers do, that there is some sort of psychic or empathic connection between rider and dragon. But hard details regarding it are yet to be revealed. Marwyn or Tyrion would be the major characters that would perhaps know the most. And Tyrion had only been in possession of a fragment of Septon Barth's Unnatural History that supposedly has these kinds of hard details in-universe, but all known copies of it were supposedly burnt by Baelor the Blessed and obviously The Citadel would have a rooting interest in having that kind of knowledge be lost to time, if Marwyn is to be believed.

At this point I think it's kind of obvious that this is one of those "gardening" elements for GRRM in that he's not ready to reveal details about. Nettles alone sort of implies that the "regular" way of taming dragons involves secret knowledge, magic, and/or genetics to some degree, otherwise what she did with Sheepstealer would have been seen as more typical than it was.

Really it's the show that sort of glosses over any detail, and to some degree that's understandable. We've received a lot more in HotD so far in regards to this with the Dragonpit, etc. It's likely that there might be more to this in further seasons.

 

[Rikudou King]

How would Alicent know of the prophecy? Maybe something slipped my mind there.

Viserys mentioned it by name and told her pieces of it while on his death bed. It's why she actually believed he had changed his mind and wanted Aegon to succeed him, though no one else actually believed her. But if Rhaenyra was to learn that they know of the prophecy, something even Daemon didn't know, the only conclusion she could reach would be that he did choose Aemon over her, and that would be a serious blow.

Viserys has no special knowledge of dragons as far as we know. He was only 8 years old when he went into exile and the last dragon died 120+ years before he was born. Or at least, if Viserys has knowledge of dragons then it's not anything he told Dany about. Plus, if he had such valuable knowledge about them he wouldn't have attempted to steal Dany's eggs and sell them to buy an army, he would have seen their value on their own and he would have tried to hatch them or told Dany how to do it, etc.

The books really allow for both ways of thinking in regards to dragons. That there is a genetics-based element to hatching and/or riding dragons and that there is a method to tending to them and caring for them. There's ways of thinking about it that are akin to what skinchangers do, that there is some sort of psychic or empathic connection between rider and dragon. But hard details regarding it are yet to be revealed. Marwyn or Tyrion would be the major characters that would perhaps know the most. And Tyrion had only been in possession of a fragment of Septon Barth's Unnatural History that supposedly has these kinds of hard details in-universe, but all known copies of it were supposedly burnt by Baelor the Blessed and obviously The Citadel would have a rooting interest in having that kind of knowledge be lost to time, if Marwyn is to be believed.

At this point I think it's kind of obvious that this is one of those "gardening" elements for GRRM in that he's not ready to reveal details about. Nettles alone sort of implies that the "regular" way of taming dragons involves secret knowledge, magic, and/or genetics to some degree, otherwise what she did with Sheepstealer would have been seen as more typical than it was.

Really it's the show that sort of glosses over any detail, and to some degree that's understandable. We've received a lot more in HotD so far in regards to this with the Dragonpit, etc. It's likely that there might be more to this in further seasons.

Viserys knowledge was from the old stories, which did have information, such as how to feed the baby dragons. And remember, while he was kind of an asshole, he was still taught her all he knew about history and such. In fairness, no one knows how to hatch dragons, and it seems clear no one actually expected Dany to hatch them.

True, though even the genetics is confusing, since at least in the books, several of the presumed dragonseeds were devoured attempting to tame a dragon. We'll see how the show handles this. On the positive side, while not confirmed, it does seem like they have an actress who could play Nettles.

 

[xi0]

Viserys mentioned it by name and told her pieces of it while on his death bed. It's why she actually believed he had changed his mind and wanted Aegon to succeed him, though no one else actually believed her. But if Rhaenyra was to learn that they know of the prophecy, something even Daemon didn't know, the only conclusion she could reach would be that he did choose Aemon over her, and that would be a serious blow.

My interpretation of this is delusional things said on his deathbed that she uses to justify her actions. Whether those things mean something to her now or not remains to be seen. I'm not sure I'd like that angle either as we have no reason to think Alicent cares about prophecy in any way so using that as an excuse would just further her dishonesty I guess, but Green stans certainly wouldn't like that lmao

Viserys knowledge was from the old stories, which did have information, such as how to feed the baby dragons. And remember, while he was kind of an asshole, he was still taught her all he knew about history and such. In fairness, no one knows how to hatch dragons, and it seems clear no one actually expected Dany to hatch them.

True, though even the genetics is confusing, since at least in the books, several of the presumed dragonseeds were devoured attempting to tame a dragon. We'll see how the show handles this. On the positive side, while not confirmed, it does seem like they have an actress who could play Nettles.

What information though? I can grant things that are stated in the text but we shouldn't assume anything about people's knowledge regarding the actual raising/riding/hatching of dragons, it's very much been intentional obfuscated. My point is Viserys did not act as a person who knew much of anything about dragons. We shouldn't assume there was more to his knowledge if Dany makes no mention of it either.

The genetic aspect is still very much theory, but it's pretty supported by the text. Basically that the ability to hatch dragons is passed down by the X gene and people get it from their mothers (and there's even a notion that it's not from Targaryens either, but Velaryons). Whether that's true or not remains to be seen. Did GRRM consider all of that intentionally? Perhaps not. But A LOT of his other stories involved genetics, etc.

 

[kkck]

Lots to unpack in that first episode...

Spoiler

The queen just happens to run into a random wing while flying around? I suppose it's technically not impossible but those odds seem pretty damn long even if she was around the area her kid died. The wing would have fallen god knows where in the ocean.

Scorpions are a thing? I thought those were an innovation from 300 years into the future. Am I misremembering stuff?

What up with the assassins not making up their mind about who to kill? You'd think at that point they would simply kill the wife and twins and get it over with. And they really had reservations about simply checking which one was the boy? really? Instead they let the queen go with the other kid while stabbing the remaining one 628 times. past the first 50 stabs that's not even a body, it's just paste. Overall to me it just doesn't look like this scene played in a way that makes any sense.

Stark convinces jace that he needs his forces at the walls by showing him the whole bunch of nothing there is at the other side? I mean, we know as viewers that the wall is a magical structure that keeps out white walkers (at least) but they don't know that.

 

[Star builder]

Scorpions are a thing? I thought those were an innovation from 300 years into the future. Am I misremembering stuff?

Meraxes was killed by scorpion in Dorne during the conquest so it not weird or out of time

 

[xi0]

Episode 2 was a lot better IMO

 

[Rikudou King]

Kind of disappointed that they seem to have trimmed t5he storyline, would have like to see more of Winterfell and the Wall during this time. Also a shame we didn't get to see the Green's initial reaction to Aemond revealing what he did. Blood and Cheese was much milder then I would have liked, but I can see why they didn't go the whole way. Have to say, I really am enjoying Aegon this season, he comes off a bit more human than in the first season. Otto's performance upon losing Hand of the King was also really good. I would think he wouldn't be gone for the rest of the season, so will we get some scenes in Oldtown? Team Black is doing pretty much what I expected, though I'm wondering if Rhaenyra's experience at the end of the last episode will affect her actions going forward.

My interpretation of this is delusional things said on his deathbed that she uses to justify her actions. Whether those things mean something to her now or not remains to be seen. I'm not sure I'd like that angle either as we have no reason to think Alicent cares about prophecy in any way so using that as an excuse would just further her dishonesty I guess, but Green stans certainly wouldn't like that lmao

He did say it while out of his mind, but Alicent doesn't know that, and based on what we've seen from her, she truly does believe it was a message that he changed his mind to Aegon. I see it as the opposite, since she didn't put Aegon on the throne for her own selfish reasons, but because she thought that was what Viserys actually wanted, and thus can be justified.

What information though? I can grant things that are stated in the text but we shouldn't assume anything about people's knowledge regarding the actual raising/riding/hatching of dragons, it's very much been intentional obfuscated. My point is Viserys did not act as a person who knew much of anything about dragons. We shouldn't assume there was more to his knowledge if Dany makes no mention of it either.

The genetic aspect is still very much theory, but it's pretty supported by the text. Basically that the ability to hatch dragons is passed down by the X gene and people get it from their mothers (and there's even a notion that it's not from Targaryens either, but Velaryons). Whether that's true or not remains to be seen. Did GRRM consider all of that intentionally? Perhaps not. But A LOT of his other stories involved genetics, etc.

He told her stories that he was told, some of which had information she ended up using later on. Regarding dragons, the only thing we're told he taught her was them eating burnt meat. And while the stories for the most parts do support the idea that it's genetic, there's enough little things to suggest there has to be an additional factor, such as how several of the eggs never manage to be hatched.

 

[M3J]

What's the other brother's name, the one-eyed brother of Aemon? I forgot. It was weird to see him show remorse and regret, I always thought he was a bit fucked up and psychopathic even from a young age.

 

[Franz]

What's the other brother's name, the one-eyed brother of Aemon? I forgot. It was weird to see him show remorse and regret, I always thought he was a bit fucked up and psychopathic even from a young age.

Aemond.

Kind of disappointed that they seem to have trimmed t5he storyline, would have like to see more of Winterfell and the Wall during this time. A

I too would have expected to see more of Cregan this season, but it's understandable that they chose not to focus on Jacearys' journey in the series.

Too bad Sara Snow was apparently Mushroom's invention.