Discussion Ranking

[Shadowlord123]

Damn it’s been a while since I’ve seen you on here. There are a couple points I disagree with. I think an exhausted FH still low or mid diffs Luslec. I mean, Traumerei only acknowledged Urek and didn’t even care that Luslec was getting some kind of spell ready. Gustang didn’t look worried either. Meanwhile Luslec was looking pretty stressed. He’s a trash talker too, so him being that quiet definitely says something.

Heya, I'm on vacation now, so I'm having plenty of time to post stuff again

I don't think Luslec looked at all stressed, more like locked in. He had in front of him the very people he's wanted to kill for tens of thousands of years, now having nearly exhausted all their strength. It was an opportunity like no other, but he also had to be careful with how he handled the situation because Urek was there, and the FHs are still formidable even if weakened. Not really a situation to trash talk.

There are a couple of reasons as to why I think Luslec is not fodder for a FH:

1. Already talked about it. Gustang mocked Urek for saying a 2v1 was fine when he had brought such an "unwelcome guest" along with him. I think this clearly depicts Luslec as a somewhat relevant player with the capacity to mess things up, at least for an exhausted FH. I doubt the fight would be less than Mid Diff for the weakened FH with that alone. Low Diff feels like too little to warrant this level of acknowledgment. Gustang clearly shows some level of concern for Luslec being there. Doesn't mean he's worried, obviously, but the fact that he'd rather not have Luslec there says plenty about Luslec's strength.

2. SIU already gave Dumas and Tiara gimmicks that approached the base strength of a FH, and I think it's very safe to assume that whatever Luslec can do when going all-out is going to be >> Rosario or the Pen's fire. This already means that Luslec's abilities are not something a FH can treat lightly, regardless of their state.

With all due respect, I don’t think saying “the Boss retreated when Urek arrived” is a strong argument.

His strongest troops were only regent tier, so Urek could casually wipe out the Revolution’s “10 Family Heads” in one attack. What’s the point of the Captain sticking around to stall Urek if it means risking his entire organization getting annihilated?

Luslec, on the other hand, only had Jinsung, Khel, and Garnak behind him. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t even rank in FUG’s top 5 strongest, so losing them wouldn’t put FUG as a whole at major risk.

Plus, Luslec already has some idea of Urek’s personality since he’s met him before. He knows Urek doesn’t just kill people that easily. The Boss doesn’t know that, so he’s probably thinking, “If he gets serious, he could wipe us all out right now.” He doesn’t know how rarely Urek gets serious or that he usually lets his enemies go, so he chose to leave instead of taking that risk.

Other than that, I agree with everything else. Great analysis as usual.

The Boss' decision to leave was certainly reasonable, but there's no denying he was portrayed as insta-kill fodder for Urek. Had they left a moment later, all of them would have died.

Of course, we have no clue what level of power Urek was using at the Sprout. One could reasonably argue he was using 100% Reinforcement or something close to it. In which case, Boss retreating isn't much of an anti-feat, since it's likely this version of Urek could wipe Luslec instantly in a straight fight as well.

While I could see Boss as TT-level, he's kinda a nothing burger right now. We know he should be above Regents, but he's also canon fodder to Urek. Luslec, meanwhile, fought Urek, stopped him several times, and even injured him. All while significantly holding back. Luslec just looks a lot more impressive on paper.

I have no problem with the Boss being TT-level, but he's gonna have to show it. As of right now, I don't feel the gravitas of an overwhelmingly powerful being on par with Luslec or Adori. The gap between their introductions and portrayal is considerable, IMO.

I would like to add 2 cents on this. Like we saw Edahn seem to be too exhausted after fighting Mago. We know he didn't use so many of his arsenals, but do they matter? Likely not since Edahn himself thought only his main spear could give him true security against Mago and others. He never once mentioned any of his arsenal besides the spear.

Likewise, Gussy having many arsenals doesn't matter. SIU won't bother showing an arc or family for each family leader. Take that library of his, too many books, but used 2-3 only. Likewise Traumerei didn't use elgore, cobalt. Having many arsenals does not matter if they are useless.

Unless he faces someone like shinari, hendo or TP, I don't see him doing any well against other FLs. Most likely he will be used as hype tool for other FLs or SOs.

Gustang having practically infinite versatility on paper does matter, as that makes it very unlikely he's ever gonna be hard-countered in an actual fight (if SIU bothers to write him using his powers properly) and could almost always find ways to hard-counter his opponents instead.

Of course, I do agree that having a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean he'd always have the upper hand in a fight, but I think there are at least a few abilities that would always make him stronger and more formidable to fight.

Take the pen, we know the kind of stuff Tiara could do with it (mimic abilities much stronger than her own, transform into entities with abilities far beyond her own output), and Gustang's is stated to be much stronger than hers. So just imagine the stuff he can do with it.

The purple transformation Dumas had would also give Gustang a big boost. He's almost guaranteed to have it, since the form gave off power similar to that of the FHs (and the power was called "overwhelmingly strict"; not a coincidence given Dumas is Gustang's strictness).

Other than that, we got nothing on the Library's causality manipulation, or perception change. Nothing with Mikel's twisting ability either. Honestly, Gustang practically didn't use his powers at all in that fight, lol. On paper, his arsenal is absurdly broken.

 

[undefined]

Heya, I'm on vacation now, so I'm having plenty of time to post stuff again

I don't think Luslec looked at all stressed, more like locked in. He had in front of him the very people he's wanted to kill for tens of thousands of years, now having nearly exhausted all their strength. It was an opportunity like no other, but he also had to be careful with how he handled the situation because Urek was there, and the FHs are still formidable even if weakened. Not really a situation to trash talk.

There are a couple of reasons as to why I think Luslec is not fodder for a FH:

1. Already talked about it. Gustang mocked Urek for saying a 2v1 was fine when he had brought such an "unwelcome guest" along with him. I think this clearly depicts Luslec as a somewhat relevant player with the capacity to mess things up, at least for an exhausted FH. I doubt the fight would be less than Mid Diff for the weakened FH with that alone. Low Diff feels like too little to warrant this level of acknowledgment. Gustang clearly shows some level of concern for Luslec being there. Doesn't mean he's worried, obviously, but the fact that he'd rather not have Luslec there says plenty about Luslec's strength.

2. SIU already gave Dumas and Tiara gimmicks that approached the base strength of a FH, and I think it's very safe to assume that whatever Luslec can do when going all-out is going to be >> Rosario or the Pen's fire. This already means that Luslec's abilities are not something a FH can treat lightly, regardless of their state.

Dumas’s full power definitely does not approach the base strength of a FH. Remember, Baam put the adult Zahard who appeared on the Hidden Floor and Dumas at similar levels. We know that version of Zahard possessed only a fraction of the real Zahard’s power. We also know the FH’s are definitely above 50% of the real Zahard’s strength, while Dumas is comparable to a small fraction—so like 10% at best(this is raw power btw, not even including their abilties). Also, Baam can’t sense the true depth of a Family Head’s power to begin with, so his comparison between Dumas and the FHs was never reliable in the first place.

As for Tiara, the statement that “her flames are close to a Family Head’s” is crazy ngl. However, I believe it’s an inconsistency in SIU’s power scaling. For example, the version of Dumas that beat Jinsung and Yama in a couple of moves struggled against Ju and Tump—branch heads who are indirectly stated to be inferior to Pudidy. However Pudidy and Jinsung are comparable… so yeah, ridiculous errors in power scaling is not uncommon for SIU. So I feel like we can chalk tiara’s gimmick up to be just a massive outlier and an inconsistency on SIU’s part. Or Tiara was just massively overrating her abilities.

The Boss' decision to leave was certainly reasonable, but there's no denying he was portrayed as insta-kill fodder for Urek. Had they left a moment later, all of them would have died.

Of course, we have no clue what level of power Urek was using at the Sprout. One could reasonably argue he was using 100% Reinforcement or something close to it. In which case, Boss retreating isn't much of an anti-feat, since it's likely this version of Urek could wipe Luslec instantly in a straight fight as well.

While I could see Boss as TT-level, he's kinda a nothing burger right now. We know he should be above Regents, but he's also canon fodder to Urek. Luslec, meanwhile, fought Urek, stopped him several times, and even injured him. All while significantly holding back. Luslec just looks a lot more impressive on paper.

I have no problem with the Boss being TT-level, but he's gonna have to show it. As of right now, I don't feel the gravitas of an overwhelmingly powerful being on par with Luslec or Adori. The gap between their introductions and portrayal is considerable, IMO.

I mean, the Boss has gotten crazy portrayal.

There is the statement, “The Tower’s newest champion had arrived” or something to that effect.

Maschenny appeared to be more serious than we’ve ever seen her when she met the Boss, while he looked quite casual. That scene easily gives me the impression that the Boss is way above Maschenny.

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

Plus, he’s leading an organization with at least 10 regent-level threats. The strength of those troops far surpasses FUG’s. I feel like the Boss has to be at least as strong as Luslec for all these guys to submit to him.

 

[arrowofsky]

Dumas’s full power definitely does not approach the base strength of a FH. Remember, Baam put the adult Zahard who appeared on the Hidden Floor and Dumas at similar levels. We know that version of Zahard possessed only a fraction of the real Zahard’s power. We also know the FH’s are definitely above 50% of the real Zahard’s strength, while Dumas is comparable to a small fraction—so like 10% at best(this is raw power btw, not even including their abilties). Also, Baam can’t sense the true depth of a Family Head’s power to begin with, so his comparison between Dumas and the FHs was never reliable in the first place.

As for Tiara, the statement that “her flames are close to a Family Head’s” is crazy ngl. However, I believe it’s an inconsistency in SIU’s power scaling. For example, the version of Dumas that beat Jinsung and Yama in a couple of moves struggled against Ju and Tump—branch heads who are indirectly stated to be inferior to Pudidy. However Pudidy and Jinsung are comparable… so yeah, ridiculous errors in power scaling is not uncommon for SIU. So I feel like we can chalk tiara’s gimmick up to be just a massive outlier and an inconsistency on SIU’s part. Or Tiara was just massively overrating her abilities.




I mean, the Boss has gotten crazy portrayal.

There is the statement, “The Tower’s newest champion had arrived” or something to that effect.

Maschenny appeared to be more serious than we’ve ever seen her when she met the Boss, while he looked quite casual. That scene easily gives me the impression that the Boss is way above Maschenny.

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

Plus, he’s leading an organization with at least 10 regent-level threats. The strength of those troops far surpasses FUG’s. I feel like the Boss has to be at least as strong as Luslec for all these guys to submit to him.

Is that Boss talked to Maschenny and buffed Boss later the same though? I think there are people here who think those are different.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Of course, I do agree that having a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean he'd always have the upper hand in a fight, but I think there are at least a few abilities that would always make him stronger and more formidable to fight

Tbh, I don't see him worth investing atp. I am not sure if every FL will get an arc like Traumerei did. Even Jahad family is getting involved now.

Take the pen, we know the kind of stuff Tiara could do with it (mimic abilities much stronger than her own, transform into entities with abilities far beyond her own output), and Gustang's is stated to be much stronger than hers. So just imagine the stuff he can do with it

I doubt Pen is Gussy's power. It was most likely crafted by master in his initial days of climbing. After all almost every item was made by workshop.

The purple transformation Dumas had would also give Gustang a big boost. He's almost guaranteed to have it, since the form gave off power similar to that of the FHs (and the power was called "overwhelmingly strict"; not a coincidence given Dumas is Gustang's strictness).

Idk purple transformation will give him power. But the power Viole felt and made comparison was with spear. Viole even says before he unleashed the spear, I must defeat him.

Other than that, we got nothing on the Library's causality manipulation, or perception change. Nothing with Mikel's twisting ability either. Honestly, Gustang practically didn't use his powers at all in that fight, lol. On paper, his arsenal is absurdly broken

Michel ability isn't something different. We saw penin use word magic too. It's not a game changer against a FL. We also saw Gussy use world shinsu to save Traumerei from V's WD attack. Traumerei only worried about library in his arsenal which he used. I doubt anyone besides him knows Gussy the best among GWs.

--- Double Post Merged, Today at 6:58 PM, Original Post Date: Today at 6:54 PM ---

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

I don't think Boss is TT. To be a TT, we have seen two conditions must meet. First being a leader. While Boss fulfills this position at a glance but I think the structure is more decentralized. Like there are multiple boss. Don't think there is one true leader of Revs. Other being associated with special irregulars like Adori is with Jahad, Baek works with UM while Mirchea with V while inheriting power from another irregular like Mirchea with Arlene, Baek with the moon irregular and Adori with Hon.

 

[arrowofsky]

I don't think Boss is TT. To be a TT, we have seen two conditions must meet. First being a leader. While Boss fulfills this position at a glance but I think the structure is more decentralized. Like there are multiple boss. Don't think there is one true leader of Revs. Other being associated with special irregulars like Adori is with Jahad, Baek works with UM while Mirchea with V while inheriting power from another irregular like Mirchea with Arlene, Baek with the moon irregular and Adori with Hon.

Moon irregular?

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Moon irregular?

Yeah he got power of the moon in spin off, he talks about that in chapter 61

 

[undefined]

Is that Boss talked to Maschenny and buffed Boss later the same though? I think there are people here who think those are different.

I think they’re the same person because they have identical scars on the left sides of their faces. Plus, both of them have calculating and scheming personality types. It’s hard for me to believe they’re different people.

--- Double Post Merged, 49 minutes ago, Original Post Date: 53 minutes ago ---

I don't think Boss is TT. To be a TT, we have seen two conditions must meet. First being a leader. While Boss fulfills this position at a glance but I think the structure is more decentralized. Like there are multiple boss. Don't think there is one true leader of Revs. Other being associated with special irregulars like Adori is with Jahad, Baek works with UM while Mirchea with V while inheriting power from another irregular like Mirchea with Arlene, Baek with the moon irregular and Adori with Hon.

We’ll just have to wait and see. I just don’t see how the leader of such a powerful organization wouldn’t at least be luslec level.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Dumas’s full power definitely does not approach the base strength of a FH. Remember, Baam put the adult Zahard who appeared on the Hidden Floor and Dumas at similar levels. We know that version of Zahard possessed only a fraction of the real Zahard’s power. We also know the FH’s are definitely above 50% of the real Zahard’s strength, while Dumas is comparable to a small fraction—so like 10% at best(this is raw power btw, not even including their abilties). Also, Baam can’t sense the true depth of a Family Head’s power to begin with, so his comparison between Dumas and the FHs was never reliable in the first place.

Dumas' full power in general is far below FH base strength; the only thing that was said to be approaching that was Rosario. It's like a human holding a gun that has far more raw power than they can muster on their own. Same case with Tiara and the pen's flames (though her case is even more extreme).

Of course, we are still talking about the bare minimum a FH can do, which is basically nothing in comparison to what they can do at full strength. But that's already a level of power that would tickle them if they didn't defend or dodge. And Luslec should be far above that.

As for Tiara, the statement that “her flames are close to a Family Head’s” is crazy ngl. However, I believe it’s an inconsistency in SIU’s power scaling. For example, the version of Dumas that beat Jinsung and Yama in a couple of moves struggled against Ju and Tump—branch heads who are indirectly stated to be inferior to Pudidy. However Pudidy and Jinsung are comparable… so yeah, ridiculous errors in power scaling is not uncommon for SIU. So I feel like we can chalk tiara’s gimmick up to be just a massive outlier and an inconsistency on SIU’s part. Or Tiara was just massively overrating her abilities.

I don't think Tiara's statement is inconsistent. The pen was stated to defy the rules of the tower, allowing her to control far more shinsu than she could muster on her own. The flames destroyed the vines of the Sprout on a very deep level, which is something only someone with firepower close to FH base strength could do, according to Gustang. This claim in particular is pretty secure; Baam's claim about Rosario is more dubious for the reasons you said, but I think SIU likely intended to make both gimmicks as comparable to each other in the sense that both approach the base floor of what a FH can do.

I believe the whole Dumas thing can be rationalized. For one, Jinsung and Yama were nerfed and likely not CC Tier when they fought Dumas. For two, Dumas was missing both his arms when he fought the BHs, putting him well beneath the level he was at against Jinsung and Yama. For three, Ju and Tump might be stronger than the average BH and approaching CC Tier. Tump's elephant could easily handle the unignited Rosario spears, something nerfed Jinsung was having trouble with. The elephant could also harm armored Dumas with its strikes, while nerfed Yama couldn't do any meaningful damage. As for Ju, her water pressure attacks were noted to be so powerful that AA was having doubts whether Dumas' spears could fully block them. They were clearly portrayed to be > nerfed Jinsung and nerfed Yama, IMO.

I mean, the Boss has gotten crazy portrayal.

There is the statement, “The Tower’s newest champion had arrived” or something to that effect.

He did say that and then proceeded to run away when the actual champion showed up, being glad that he wasn't insta-wiped alongside his boys

Big talk that he couldn't back up. Simple as that.

Maschenny appeared to be more serious than we’ve ever seen her when she met the Boss, while he looked quite casual. That scene easily gives me the impression that the Boss is way above Maschenny.

Which isn't saying a lot even if true. Maschenny had pretty mid portrayal against a CC Tier like Jinsung. As of right now, I'm having a hard time picturing her as comparable to the likes of Dumas, who are still scrubs to TTs.

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

Plus, he’s leading an organization with at least 10 regent-level threats. The strength of those troops far surpasses FUG’s. I feel like the Boss has to be at least as strong as Luslec for all these guys to submit to him.

Eh, by that logic, the Boss would even outclass FHs, since his army is far above the strength of a leaderless Great Family. I don't think you can scale him like that.

For all we know, it's possible the power dynamic between the FH wannabes and the Boss is similar to that of Zahard and the FHs (Zahard being for sure stronger, but without a massive suggested power gap).

I don't think it's implausible he could be TT lvl, but I'm gonna need something more than vague hype to put him there.

I doubt Pen is Gussy's power. It was most likely crafted by master in his initial days of climbing. After all almost every item was made by workshop.

The pen was explicitly stated to be Gustang's power. There's no indication it's an item from the Workshop, unlike the Okbi.

Idk purple transformation will give him power. But the power Viole felt and made comparison was with spear. Viole even says before he unleashed the spear, I must defeat him.

Baam made two comparisons. The first compared the power of the form itself. While he noted it to be similar to the FHs in nature, it wasn't comparable in magnitude. The second comparison was specifically between the spear and the FHs, he felt that the spear's power could approach FH base strength.

I think both come from the same source, though; it's all part of that strict power. Baam noted it had the quality to devour everything around it. I think Dumas and the spear's sudden change can both be explained if that power consumed them, changed their form, and boosted them to a whole new level. Just my speculation.

Michel ability isn't something different. We saw penin use word magic too. It's not a game changer against a FL. We also saw Gussy use world shinsu to save Traumerei from V's WD attack. Traumerei only worried about library in his arsenal which he used. I doubt anyone besides him knows Gussy the best among GWs.

Mikel's twisting ability has yet to be shown by someone else. Also, I think it's a bold claim to say it couldn't be something that changed the flow of the fight, given how overpowered it was (a simple gesture of Mikel's hand basically insta-one-shot Hugo by twisting all her bones). That shit boosted at FH lvl could be pretty scary.

Gustang could have developed new things. I mean, Traumerei's power evolved enough to make 3D Disconnection, so it's not implausible for Gustang to have evolved further as well.