Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

Ener9y

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If conjured items are solid aura as you say, then you can see them through with Gyou or even bare eyed provided you have Nen pores awakened. In Kortopi´s/Killua´s case had Killua used Gyou he would have seen the real hideout, which is bad in a hindsight, because Ryodan knew Killua and Gon knew Nen, so why would they use conjuration that would be seen through? Also if he had In on the conjured items, then the items would be invisible, since when Kurapika placed In on his chains then the chains themselves became invisible. This leads me to believe that Conjured items are not a solid aura. You change your aura into a material thing, albeit with special abilities.
Yes. Conjuration is materializing the aura. Conjured items can be seen as any other nen-less object if the user intended so. Uvo only sensed the chain when Kurapika intended him to (when he used his Chain Jail, not before).

For the millionth time it uses the CONCEPT of Zetsu to mentally suppress the users aura, NOT THE PHYSICAL APPLICATION. That is why its an ADVANCED application of the CONCEPT of Zetsu. I've given you the same answer plenty of times and you are just ignoring the facts when they are right in front of your face.
Name one thing that is common in "Zetsu" and "In" other than that the aura isn't seen in both. The process matters just as the result. You can't just say "that is that" and throw all the hows out of the equation; that's just insane. Zetsu is purely physical. If "In" is a spiritual technique, it should be in the major principles, not an application of one (since it has nothing to do with it).
 

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Conjured items are solidified aura, using Gyo on the eyes won't help you to see if it's a Nen item or not, Conjured items can be seen even by normal people. They can use the principles on the items but Zetsu is hiding his whole presence not the object , In however is hiding only his aura so Kurapika can use it to hide his chains, just like Hisoka with Bungee Gum. What makes a conjured item different from a real one are the conditions(if there are) and the fact that the users can make them appear and disappear at will. Kortopi's copies are perfect, even with Gyo they could not notice the difference with a real one. These differences are crucial, that's what permits Kurapika to trick many Nen users, he never makes disappear his chains so people think he is a Manipulator because a Conjurer would likely make his weapon disappear when he doe'snt need it.
 

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That is true (Kou, Ryuu, Little Flower etc. use Gyou), but there are two questions still left unanswered; Why Gyou in eyes breaks In? Why should there be a specific application of Gyo in the eyes in the first place if En can break In too?

I believe this to be too much. Suppress your opened pores like they are closed? Isn´t that actually closing them? I think you are overreaching too much to justify the In faults.

Well, it is not Knuckle´s ability per se, but the concepts that came to existence with it. Potential aura, actualized aura, characterizing Nen with numbers, attributing numerical values to attacks - this it what I am talking about (but hardly all). The numbers in other fights are not directly referenced but are still there, hell the whole "you can´t tell who wins in Nen fight based on their aura alone" is the number system in a nutshell

Also you can´t conveniently ignore the mechanics of Nen itself!!! Togashi introduced the mechanics and we have to acknowledge them. If he didn´t want to use them, then he wouldn´t and shouldn´t have done so in the first place.

You keep saying that we don´t know how it works, but seeing your explanations isn´t it better to follow Occam´s Razor (simplest explanation being the best - In is wrong)? Anyway, how does that work on a conjured self-sustainable object that is cut off from you and has no aura to begin with? - THIS is the issue I am targeting.

That would be fine and well if it weren´t for In being application of Zetsu AND why In works on conjured items - THIS is where "how" becomes the vital piece of puzzle. Reading recent pages gives me the impression that "HOWS" are incredibly relevant.


I won´t speak for others but as for me; your conjectures on the subject were somewhat lacking in reliability. Basically they failed to convince me. Let me reiterate my gripes with In again.

Why is In application of Zetsu? In as a technique of Transmuter class (changing the property of your aura) to make your aura harder to see makes more sense than application of closing your nodes. It would even explain In on conjured items!!!

Why Gyou breaks In?

Why In works on Conjured items? "In" as it is (badly as it is) makes your aura hard to see. How that works on auraless material?
I would argue that en is not something you can use in the middle of battle to deal with in. Is involved releasing your aura as far as possible and feel stuff within in. Odds are that it would counter in however it would expose you in the end to a counter attack. Your aura would be covering a huge area instead of being safely within your ken which means you risk a huge amount of damage. Gyo would be more practical since your defense would be mostly intact. Would you need gyo if you are in ken though? I guess it depends on how skilled your enemy is with in (at least based on what we have seen when it comes to in, uvo was presumably using ken when fighting and yet he did not seen the hidden chain).

I would argue that the numbers would exist within any manga where there is spirit based combat but rather the authors choose to not name those because it becomes a limiting factor. Within nen users we had always known there is a limit to how much aura they have, with knuckle we simply see that come into play in a way which is not very restraining because nen was made in such a way that the amount of aura is not the defining factor. Heck, we know gon and killua are weak in the grand scheme of things, their enemies have always been more than significantly stronger than them. Its always planning that gets gon ahead and also the idea that nen combat is not defined by the amount of aura but rather how abilities interact. Nen has a number of intricacies that rely on your own psychology and whatnot, an unknown that cannot even be accounted for even by the users of techniques. There is also the issue that a few of gon's victories and defeats in the manga have been moral (like when he fought hisoka at the tower) rather than actual hard victories.
 

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@Master Oz
@Ener9y

Im not even gonna respond to your posts.. If you cant see how using zetsu without closing pores is an advanced use of the concept of zetsu then there is nothing to talk abbout. You guys can be confused and mad a togashi and nen all you want, i dont care if you never unnderstand.
 

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To be fair, the manga has never even hinted at the possibility of what you are suggesting though. More so, the concept you mention and the concept of zetsu are mutually exclusive. Zetsu is defined as closing your aura nodes and stop the nen flow altogether. And even then, if you could stop nen from flowing without closing the nodes it would be basically the same as the normal zetsu, there wouldn't be a distinction from the normal zetsu that would be relevant to making it an advanced form of zetsu or in. I mean, how would it be different at all? There aren't degrees of skill to zetsu which we could infer from the definition we have been given of zetsu alone as nodes are either closed or open and zetsu only applies when they are closed.
 

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To be fair, the manga has never even hinted at the possibility of what you are suggesting though. More so, the concept you mention and the concept of zetsu are mutually exclusive. Zetsu is defined as closing your aura nodes and stop the nen flow altogether. And even then, if you could stop nen from flowing without closing the nodes it would be basically the same as the normal zetsu, there wouldn't be a distinction from the normal zetsu that would be relevant to making it an advanced form of zetsu or in. I mean, how would it be different at all? There aren't degrees of skill to zetsu which we could infer from the definition we have been given of zetsu alone as nodes are either closed or open and zetsu only applies when they are closed.
This isn't what I'm implying at all. I'm saying its possible to SUPPRESS your aura without closing it off completely, allowing you to use your hatsu and "zetsu" (絕, Suppress; Null) at the same time. Zetsu suppress your aura by closing your nodes completely, which stops you from using your aura. In uses the advantage of suppression while using your aura. THAT is the point I was trying to get across. That In allows you to suppress your aura without stopping it completely and that the mechanism behind this must be mental suppression. Idk what your guys are talking about.
 
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Conjured items are solidified aura, using Gyo on the eyes won't help you to see if it's a Nen item or not, Conjured items can be seen even by normal people.
Nen users can see aura, as stated before, so they can see solid aura, ergo they should see the solid aura in Kurapika´s chains, if it is a solid aura. Kurapika says that the reason In works on conjured items it that they are made from aura, but that would not make sense for the conjuration training, because then what would be the reason to learn the mechanics of steel chain (or whatever chain he was playing with) if he were to make it from aura and not steel? I always interpreted it even from his master´s words that he creates the material with his aura and infuses it with desired abilities upon creation, but then it is just steel/iron with special abilities, since normal aura can be seen by Nen users and somebody would have seen that aura by now, because Transmuted aura can be seen by Nen users so logically solidified aura would have been seen by Nen users. The master even uses reasoning such as that the conjuration is a proper physical phenomenon and since Togashi hasn´t provided us with any physical properties of aura, then it is safe to assume that he was talking about the materials themselves. Gyo helps users see aura so if they use Gyo then they should see the aura more clearly provided that the conjured items are really aura.
They can use the principles on the items but Zetsu is hiding his whole presence not the object , In however is hiding only his aura so Kurapika can use it to hide his chains, just like Hisoka with Bungee Gum.
The nature of their abilities are fundamentally different though. Also that reminds me have we seen another Conjurer using In on their conjured item?
Kortopi's copies are perfect, even with Gyo they could not notice the difference with a real one.
Who did, and when??? The real items are made from materials. If the conjured items are solid aura, then the Nen users would see the aura the item is made from.
I would argue that en is not something you can use in the middle of battle to deal with in. Is involved releasing your aura as far as possible and feel stuff within in. Odds are that it would counter in however it would expose you in the end to a counter attack. Your aura would be covering a huge area instead of being safely within your ken which means you risk a huge amount of damage. Gyo would be more practical since your defense would be mostly intact. Would you need gyo if you are in ken though? I guess it depends on how skilled your enemy is with in (at least based on what we have seen when it comes to in, uvo was presumably using ken when fighting and yet he did not seen the hidden chain).
Well first of all if somebody is blind, then Gyo in the eyes is useless, so for detection En is more practical. The question is if In just makes aura less visible (a person with acute senses would still feel the aura), or hides the sounds, smells, heat etc. of the ability as well (if it doesn´t, then the nen user with acute senses would realize something is up, which would make usage of In useless). Second the Gyo is limited by eyesight area so then the user would be oblivious to the aura behind. En would still be more useful there, but En is factually more tiring, leaves one defenseless as you say and thus scarsely used. But then again if one uses En in fight then he would probably depend on the dodging abilities rather than defense, because the detection would allow them to evade with ease. Also when users use Gyo, they focus all of their aura into their eyes /at least Wing said so/, so that would leave the user defenseless too, but then again King with his aura /probably over million/ would have to gather all his Ren aura into his eyes to see through Gyo, which personally doesn´t make sense. There has to be a functional threshold for Gyou to work.

As far as Uvo goes, I am convinced that In does more to aura than hide it from sight, because Kurapika had caught Uvo and Uvo realized that only after Kurapika dispelled the In on chains, therefore enabling Uvo to feel the chains and thus realize he was caught. Also would nen user be able to use Gyo concurrently with Ken?
I would argue that the numbers would exist within any manga where there is spirit based combat but rather the authors choose to not name those because it becomes a limiting factor. Within nen users we had always known there is a limit to how much aura they have, with knuckle we simply see that come into play in a way which is not very restraining because nen was made in such a way that the amount of aura is not the defining factor. Heck, we know gon and killua are weak in the grand scheme of things, their enemies have always been more than significantly stronger than them. Its always planning that gets gon ahead and also the idea that nen combat is not defined by the amount of aura but rather how abilities interact. Nen has a number of intricacies that rely on your own psychology and whatnot, an unknown that cannot even be accounted for even by the users of techniques. There is also the issue that a few of gon's victories and defeats in the manga have been moral (like when he fought hisoka at the tower) rather than actual hard victories.
But the problem here is that Togashi stated that there is a number system in place through Knuckle and that system FAILS to take the intricacy and psychology into the account, which makes it worthless and undermines Togashi´s authority and by extension Knuckle´s ability. If we take a look at the volume of the Youpi´s aura (at least 700 000) the volume itself doesn´t indicate the quality of the aura or the utility of the aura. Then since Knuckle gives the enemy his aura, then there must be unified metric to calculate properly the shown amount. E.g. how much is Knuckle´s 150 aura in Youpi´s aura or vice versa? If Knuckle´s ability doesn´t do that (which it probalby doesn´t), then the intricacy of the system is gone.
This isn't what I'm implying at all. I'm saying its possible to SUPPRESS your aura without closing it off completely, allowing you to use your hatsu and "zetsu" (絕, Suppress; Null) at the same time. Zetsu suppress your aura by closing your nodes completely, which stops you from using your aura. In uses the advantage of suppression while using your aura. THAT is the point I was trying to get across. That In allows you to suppress your aura without stopping it completely and that the mechanism behind this must be mental suppression. Idk what your guys are talking about.
So you are saying that they are using the benefits of the supposed suppression without suppressing it? How can you gain the benefits form doing something without actually doing it? Well, you go around that by partial suppression, but that is not what they are doing at all with In. If they were then Hisoka´s Bungee wouldn´t be as effective in In, because he is not bringing up that much aura to begin with and Kurapika´s chains wouldn´t be as long, or as powerful while in In because he suppresses the (supposed) aura in the chains. Also Zetsu doesn´t stop you from using your aura inside. Actually it makes the effects more concentrated (recovery power, or even youth moreso than with Ten).
 

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Nen users can see aura, as stated before, so they can see solid aura, ergo they should see the solid aura in Kurapika´s chains, if it is a solid aura. Kurapika says that the reason In works on conjured items it that they are made from aura, but that would not make sense for the conjuration training, because then what would be the reason to learn the mechanics of steel chain (or whatever chain he was playing with) if he were to make it from aura and not steel? I always interpreted it even from his master´s words that he creates the material with his aura and infuses it with desired abilities upon creation, but then it is just steel/iron with special abilities, since normal aura can be seen by Nen users and somebody would have seen that aura by now, because Transmuted aura can be seen by Nen users so logically solidified aura would have been seen by Nen users. The master even uses reasoning such as that the conjuration is a proper physical phenomenon and since Togashi hasn´t provided us with any physical properties of aura, then it is safe to assume that he was talking about the materials themselves. Gyo helps users see aura so if they use Gyo then they should see the aura more clearly provided that the conjured items are really aura.
Conjuration and Transmutation are not the same, usually nrmal people can't see aura but conjured objects are visible even by normal people. A non Nen user would not be able to see Killua's electricity for example but the conjured items are visible, it's impossible to make the difference between a normal object and a conjured one. That's just how the Conjuration type is. For this reason, unless a Conjurer makes his weapon appear/disappear in front of you, it is impossible to confirm his Nen type.

Kurapika's chains are a part of his aura, because he conjured them by creating his Hatsu. Remember conjured items can have conditions, that's what makes the difference with normal steel chains and they have special powers too. He needed to get used to it to visualize them well in his mind and conjure the chains.
 

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Conjuration and Transmutation are not the same, usually nrmal people can't see aura but conjured objects are visible even by normal people.
Yes I agree with that, but that is not what this is about.
A non Nen user would not be able to see Killua's electricity for example but the conjured items are visible, it's impossible to make the difference between a normal object and a conjured one.
I agree with the first part, but the second one needs explanation if you are convinced that Conjured items are made of aura. Nen users can see aura, that is known. If conjured items are solid aura, then Nen users must see the aura, since that is what they can see. I argue that in process of Conjuration of the item, they change the further unspecified amount of aura permanently into a real material (steel, wood, iron etc...) so it is not different from the real item, except the infused abilities and the pocket universe thingy. If it is a solid aura, then how can normal people see it, since normals can´t see aura?
That's just how the Conjuration type is. For this reason, unless a Conjurer makes his weapon appear/disappear in front of you, it is impossible to confirm his Nen type.
If the chain suddenly becomes several tens of meters long, then it is a safe bet for either Transmutation, Enhancement or Conjuration. With one look you would verify it is a chain on a link, not suddenly coming from body (ruling out Transmutation), with Gyou you verify the presence of aura. If there is aura - Enhancement ("enhancing" the length), if there is no aura - Conjuration.
Kurapika's chains are a part of his aura, because he conjured them by creating his Hatsu. Remember conjured items can have conditions, that's what makes the difference with normal steel chains and they have special powers too. He needed to get used to it to visualize them well in his mind and conjure the chains.
If Kurapika finds himself in some tired, sick state would that directly affect his chains somehow (of course it would indirectly, since his abilities wouldn´t be as effective), since user´s aura is greatly influenced the momentary state? Or even more convoluted example. Lets see, if Kurapika materializes his chains and never dematerializes them again and SOMEHOW he finds himself to be unable to utilize nen again and losts almost all of his aura, do the chains disappear? I think not, since they are self sustainable in existence. If they were a part of his aura, then the expected outcome would be the dissipation. Maybe we will get a confirmation through Kite, if he still has his/her ability Crazy Slots.
 

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So you are saying that they are using the benefits of the supposed suppression without suppressing it? How can you gain the benefits form doing something without actually doing it? Well, you go around that by partial suppression, but that is not what they are doing at all with In. If they were then Hisoka´s Bungee wouldn´t be as effective in In, because he is not bringing up that much aura to begin with and Kurapika´s chains wouldn´t be as long, or as powerful while in In because he suppresses the (supposed) aura in the chains. Also Zetsu doesn´t stop you from using your aura inside. Actually it makes the effects more concentrated (recovery power, or even youth moreso than with Ten).
You obviously didn't read my post. I done discussing this with you.

Everything else in your post was bs too, I guess you just don't learn do you?
 
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XXGenesis

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????? What's the Confusion about IN ?? It hides your physical Aura...Ex.Conjured Items, Emitters Aura, Transmuter Aura..Hatsu pertaining to these Nen type. I don't understand it is an advance form of Zetsu because

Zetsu applies to sealing ones aura within them and stopping its flow all together...

One seals your aura internally the other is the advance form of concealing your aura externally.

As for Conjurers they create physical items with their Nen..therefore they do carry Nen and are composed of Nen they can still be seen by ordinary ppl.
Only way to tell if an item is conjured besides good analytic skills is being witness to its summoning or vanquishing...Since conjured items are made of Nen they can rendered invisible with IN.

Togashi's only fault is that he doesn't have more battle development in usage of IN and GYO for they are crucial in a Nen battle of caliber.
 

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Re: How strong is...

I read somewhere that God Speed Killua isn't a 'speed' powerup, but more of a physical efficency power up. Aka if kill only had access to like 60% of his full potential speed because of physical limits like muscle wear and tear, God speed surpasses it, enhanced muscle twitch and response time and doesn't nesscarily make him 'faster' but makes his body run at 110%.

Thoughts on this? I think it boosts speed but the person makes a good argument:

http://www.reddit.com/r/HunterXHunter/comments/26wxu8/how_fast_is_killua/
 

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Re: How strong is...

I read somewhere that God Speed Killua isn't a 'speed' powerup, but more of a physical efficency power up. Aka if kill only had access to like 60% of his full potential speed because of physical limits like muscle wear and tear, God speed surpasses it, enhanced muscle twitch and response time and doesn't nesscarily make him 'faster' but makes his body run at 110%.

Thoughts on this? I think it boosts speed but the person makes a good argument:

http://www.reddit.com/r/HunterXHunter/comments/26wxu8/how_fast_is_killua/
Denkosekka enhances his speed and Whirlwind enhances his reactions. Even though he is faster, he is not the fastest but he definitely has the fastest reactions. Several HXH fighters already surpassed human limits and Killua is one of them, the Amori Brothers said themselves that Killua's feats were considered impossible by an expert martial artist. Even without Godspeed he should be able to maintain his top speed for a long period since he has way more stamina than normal humans to begin with, it's also confirmed that Denkosekka can be used at various levels so he can change his speed depending on the power output. He is roughly twice faster than a car, it's in the same chapter.
 
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Copy Panda

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Goreinu Ability

My question is fairly simple - are the beasts of Goreinu visible to the naked eye? Since it's an Emission ability?

Kastro' double is visible because it was a Conjuration ability, not an Emission skill (which I still find weird tbh, but w/e), so it was considered to be an independent object rather than a being created out of Nen (... which is weird).

Anyway, that's my question. Thoughts~?
 

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Moved your post, it's a simple question.

Goreinu's abilites are not visible to the naked since, as you said, they are Emission. Only Conjuration abilities are visible for normal persons.
 

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Moved your post, it's a simple question.

Goreinu's abilites are not visible to the naked since, as you said, they are Emission. Only Conjuration abilities are visible for normal persons.
oh mb, sorry for the misplacement

anyway, all of 'm where using Gyo during that match then eh? Makes sense since they could see the Bungeegum as well I guess.

Thank you for answering~
 

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oh mb, sorry for the misplacement

anyway, all of 'm where using Gyo during that match then eh? Makes sense since they could see the Bungeegum as well I guess.

Thank you for answering~
Gyo is concentrating aura in your eyes, something more close to "pay attention" rather than "watching".
When you use Nen, unless you're using Zetsu in your eyes, you should be able to see Nen of other people.
The amount of Aura they use to hide their aura is the amount of aura you need to see it. (This last bit is an assumption, of course)
 

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Gyo is concentrating aura in your eyes, something more close to "pay attention" rather than "watching".
When you use Nen, unless you're using Zetsu in your eyes, you should be able to see Nen of other people.
The amount of Aura they use to hide their aura is the amount of aura you need to see it. (This last bit is an assumption, of course)
Humans who don't know Nen cannot see it period unless it's an Conjured item.
Once you learn Nen, It becomes visible unless someone used IN
If someone is using IN they are delibritly hiding their Conjured item, Emitted item/aura, Aura period. The only way to see this is to focus and use GYO.

Fighting without Gyo is retarded its like assuming your opponent will fight fair & honest...And won't try anything sneaky or dubious
 

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Re: How strong is...

I read somewhere that God Speed Killua isn't a 'speed' powerup, but more of a physical efficency power up. Aka if kill only had access to like 60% of his full potential speed because of physical limits like muscle wear and tear, God speed surpasses it, enhanced muscle twitch and response time and doesn't nesscarily make him 'faster' but makes his body run at 110%.

Thoughts on this? I think it boosts speed but the person makes a good argument:

http://www.reddit.com/r/HunterXHunter/comments/26wxu8/how_fast_is_killua/
Godspeed definitely makes Killua faster. There's no way in hell his normal speed is enough to blitz youpi.
My question is fairly simple - are the beasts of Goreinu visible to the naked eye? Since it's an Emission ability?

Kastro' double is visible because it was a Conjuration ability, not an Emission skill (which I still find weird tbh, but w/e), so it was considered to be an independent object rather than a being created out of Nen (... which is weird).

Anyway, that's my question. Thoughts~?
No.
Humans who don't know Nen cannot see it period unless it's an Conjured item.
Once you learn Nen, It becomes visible unless someone used IN
If someone is using IN they are delibritly hiding their Conjured item, Emitted item/aura, Aura period. The only way to see this is to focus and use GYO.

Fighting without Gyo is retarded its like assuming your opponent will fight fair & honest...And won't try anything sneaky or dubious
Not really seeing how you have to use gyo on not just your eyes but your entire body so it makes sense you would sometimes forget your eyes. Sometimes it makes sense to not use gyo in the eyes at all (if you don't have nen to spare) if you are fighting a straight up brawler like Uvo. It could get you killed if you are focusing gyo on your eyes and forget the rest of your body. It makes more sense if you are fighting a trickster like Hisoka though. For instance if Kastro would have used gyo in the eyes (and emitted his clone rather than conjure it) he could have potentially beaten Hisoka since his tiger bite fist is the perfect counter to bungee gum. Hisoka probably knew this and that's why he let him live the first time but he was disappointed with his mistakes in the second fight and just killed him.
 
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Hm how Tiger Bite Fist 'the perfect counter' to Bungee Gum?
 
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