Ace vs Aokji

[Black Lagoon]

Two logia fruits users.
FIRE vs ICE
Mera Mera no Mi vs Hie Hie no Mi
Mera Mera no Mi allows Ace to manipulate, create, and transform into fire
Hie Hie no Mi allows Aokji to freeze things,to create ice, or to transform into it.

who you think is the winner???​

 

[Razh]

This is old.

I'd have to say Ace, for the obvious reasons. Fire has a great advantage. There's no doubt that Aokiji is more experienced and hardly a pushover, but he would really be retarded if he tried to fight fire with ice.

 

[Black Lagoon]

This is old.

I'd have to say Ace, for the obvious reasons. Fire has a great advantage. There's no doubt that Aokiji is more experienced and hardly a pushover, but he would really be retarded if he tried to fight fire with ice.

it's obvious

I took a look here and didn't find this thread so I created it, and if it had been already commented on Mega Convo or elsewhere, well, I apologize for adding a task to moderators

 

[DSJump]

Well, since fire beats ice in the pokemon games (and in real life) I'll have to vote for Ace:P

 

[Black Lagoon]

Well, since fire beats ice in the pokemon games (and in real life) I'll have to vote for Ace:P

Lol what a logic you have

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

The fact that ice is " traditionally beaten " by fire does not mean Ao Kiji could be beaten by Ace. That is stupid to think that because of his logia DF, he has a weakness that makes him lose.

Having a ice logia while fighting a fire logia is not a weakness, that does not make you be less strong than if you had not eaten the Hie Hie Fruit, that does not put you in a difficult situation : that just makes your ice power ineffective against a fire logia, as you cannot theorically form ice. That means in the worst possible case, you totally cannot use your DF power.
But the fact you does not have a DF power active or you are not a DF user does not mean you can be beaten by Ace or you cannot beat Ace either.

And it has never been proven than an Ao Kiji without his ice power is unable to fight seriously.

And we do not know who would not be able to use his power. This is not as simple as fire beats ice. " ice beats fire " could work too. Each power can theorically counteract the other.

 

[braindamage351]

Aokiji's power isn't simply ice, it's "freezing". That means it's absolutely screwed against Ace. And based off what little info we have, Ace would probably make a fool of Aokiji in a fist fight. Aokiji is stronger overall because of how huge his power gets on the ocean, but he can't beat Ace.

 

[Gecko Moria]

Based on the information we have Ace's fire wins against Aokiji's ice. Aokiji is definitely experienced but Ace is also strong in his own regard. It's hard to imagine Aokiji winning against Ace and his fire abilities without any powers, although we haven't seen what Aokiji would do when his Devil Fruit fails yet.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Based on the information we have Ace's fire wins against Aokiji's ice.

No, based on (pokemon) " informations ", fire wins against ice, that's all. You do not know about Ace's fire vs Ao Kiji's ice, that is not the exactly the same thing.
And for me, that piece of informations is not viable at all.

And even if it was viable, that could not explain the result of the fight.
Indeed, even if Ao Kiji was not able to use his ice power, that would not necessary mean he would lose. Otherwise, you think someone without DF powers active or a non DF user is always supposed to lose against Ace.

 

[Gecko Moria]

No, based on (pokemon) " informations ", fire wins against ice, that's all. You do not know about Ace's fire vs Ao Kiji's ice, that is not the exactly the same thing.
And for me, that piece of informations is not viable at all.

No, it's not "Pokemon" information it's the laws of physics. Fire produces heat which is able to break the bonds holding ice together and causing it to melt into water. So far the laws of physics seem to apply to Devil Fruit users so why should fire vs. ice be any different? For example, Mr. 3's wax melts in the presence of fire, Luffy is unaffected by Enel's lightning because he's rubber, Smoker is scared he'll get blown away if he transforms in windy weather etc. etc. Therefore the information is "viable". I apologize for the physics lesson but it was necessary to support my point.

And even if it was viable, that could not explain the result of the fight. Indeed, even if Ao Kiji was not able to use his ice power, that would not necessary mean he would lose. Otherwise, you think someone without DF powers active or a non DF user is always supposed to lose against Ace.

You're correct. Just because Aokiji can't use his Devil Fruit abilities doesn't mean he win lose and obviously you don't need DF powers to defeat Ace, but you do need something good. I'm sure you'll agree taht Ace is not weak. Since we have not seen any other ways Aokiji can fight without his powers (and he doesn't seem to have any other weapons), I based my decision on current information and went with the natural winner. However, future information may prove me wrong and I stand corrected in advance if this occurs.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

No, it's not "Pokemon" information it's the laws of physics. Fire produces heat which is able to break the bonds holding ice together and causing it to melt into water. So far the laws of physics seem to apply to Devil Fruit users so why should fire vs. ice be any different? For example, Mr. 3's wax melts in the presence of fire, Luffy is unaffected by Enel's lightning because he's rubber, Smoker is scared he'll get blown away if he transforms in windy weather etc. etc. Therefore the information is "viable". I apologize for the physics lesson but it was necessary to support my point.

Ok, fire makes ice melt. But ice makes fire reduce and vanish.
The difference should be that in a fight between a fire and an ice logia users, the one with the best advantage and best negative effect on the other should be Ace : I agree.
But that difference should be useful in a very close fight to prevent Ao Kiji from using his DF powers (freezing), otherwise, the two powers would counteract each other.
I imagine them throwing to each other fire and ice and the both matters disappearing with some kind of evaporation.

So, I think that they could both use their DF powers in such a fight because Ace would not always be very close to Ao Kiji to cancel his freezing ability.

 

[Razh]

Now you're the one who's making it seem like a pokemon fight.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

You are totally elsewhere ...

A pokemon fight is a very simple reasoning :
fire beats ice => Ace beats Ao Kiji.

What I said in my last post does not seem to follow that kind of logiq : I really do not agree with that logic and neither with the implication, just reread my posts. I do not understand your last post ...

From what I have seen of your messages, you seem to be the person that must be associated with that kind of simple logic.

I'd have to say Ace, for the obvious reasons.

 

[Razh]

I imagine them throwing to each other fire and ice and the both matters disappearing with some kind of evaporation.

I meant this. Clash of ice beam and flame thrower is known to sometimes produce similar effect in Pokemon.

And yes, fire has an advantage over ice. Ice can't stand too much heat. Maybe Aokiji would use his powers in an imaginative way, but Ace can do the same thing. Aokiji can also freeze his whole surrounding. But he can't freeze a man who can become fire.

And what's wrong with logic being simple? Why complicate things? Ice makes fire reduce and vanish? No, moisture does it. And it's certainly different with a man who can become fire himself and only needs oxygen to do it.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

I meant this. Clash of ice beam and flame thrower is known to sometimes produce similar effect in Pokemon.

I do not know that was a pokemon statement, I do not think it is. Pokemon statements are more about the video game, about the circle of weaknesses among the pokemons : that is a rule in the pokemon world. That such a clash or a similar thing had happened in the anime or in the manga is not for me a pokemon rule.

And what's wrong with logic being simple? Why complicate things? Ice makes fire reduce and vanish? No, moisture does it. And it's certainly different with a man who can become fire himself and only needs oxygen to do it.

What I cannot accept and what I call simple logic is that :
fire beats ice => Ace beats Ao Kiji (*)
That cannot be accepted just like that. The rest is ok, I've got no problem with even if we can have different ideas. I think we agree that this kind of reasoning (*) is not enough to be considered as serious.

 

[Gecko Moria]

Ok, fire makes ice melt. But ice makes fire reduce and vanish.
The difference should be that in a fight between a fire and an ice logia users, the one with the best advantage and best negative effect on the other should be Ace : I agree.
But that difference should be useful in a very close fight to prevent Ao Kiji from using his DF powers (freezing), otherwise, the two powers would counteract each other.
I imagine them throwing to each other fire and ice and the both matters disappearing with some kind of evaporation.

So, I think that they could both use their DF powers in such a fight because Ace would not always be very close to Ao Kiji to cancel his freezing ability.

No, ice doesn't make fire "reduce and vanish", that's what water does. Water is not in the domain of Aokiji's power. Therefore, in a close combat fight Ace and Aokiji's powers would not counteract each other or "disappear with some kind of evaporation". Ace would keep his intangibility while Aokiji loses his (as his body is no longer ice) and becomes vulnerable to attacks. However, I agree that this does not mean he will lose. For example, when Crocodile was saturated by liquid he was still able to easily fight (just not turn his body into sand to cushion blows). Furthermore, Ace does not even need to be no close combat with Aokiji "to cancel his freezing ability" because he uses his fire powers all the time and they can obviously be long range.

What I cannot accept and what I call simple logic is that :
fire beats ice => Ace beats Ao Kiji (*)
That cannot be accepted just like that. The rest is ok, I've got no problem with even if we can have different ideas. I think we agree that this kind of reasoning (*) is not enough to be considered as serious.

While I agree with you to a certain extent, from time to time we must all make judgments based on current information. From what we have seen so far Logia Fruit users become extremely vulnerable when their powers are completely negated (Crocodile, Enel, Ace etc.) and fire beating ice is such a massive advantage. Therefore, in this case I believe that this simple argument can be considered a "serious" idea. Nevertheless, all these battles in the Davy Back Fight section are completely based on one's interpretation of information and depth of speculation therefore, I find your ideas totally acceptable

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

No, ice doesn't make fire "reduce and vanish", that's what water does. Water is not in the domain of Aokiji's power. Therefore, in a close combat fight Ace and Aokiji's powers would not counteract each other or "disappear with some kind of evaporation".

If fire meets ice, ice turns into water ; then, fire meets water, that is why the fire is progressively reduced by the ice progressively turned into water, and that is why the fire eventually vanished. Besides, if fire and ice meets, the fire attacks would be affected (blocked) by the clash with harsh ice even if it makes it melt as the melting should not be instantaneous with big ice blocks.
Even if Ao Kiji does not control water, he controls ice, so, he can probably defend himself against fire with his own powers.
And do not forget that a little fire throwing meeting a big ice throwing would make the fire disappear and only makes the ice reducing a little.

Ace would keep his intangibility while Aokiji loses his (as his body is no longer ice) and becomes vulnerable to attacks. However, I agree that this does not mean he will lose. For example, when Crocodile was saturated by liquid he was still able to easily fight (just not turn his body into sand to cushion blows).

Furthermore, Ace does not even need to be no close combat with Aokiji "to cancel his freezing ability" because he uses his fire powers all the time and they can obviously be long range.

As you see my reasoning, Ao Kiji could probably defend against fire long range with long range ice attacks. Then, he would not lose his intangibility and that is why Ace would have to be close to Ao Kiji to prevent him to use his powers against the fire, as it would be impossible theorically for Ao Kiji to form ice as he would not be able to freeze things anymore.

 

[Gecko Moria]

If fire meets ice, ice turns into water ; then, fire meets water, that is why the fire is progressively reduced by the ice progressively turned into water, and that is why the fire eventually vanished. Besides, if fire and ice meets, the fire attacks would be affected (blocked) by the clash with harsh ice even if it makes it melt as the melting should not be instantaneous with big ice blocks.
Even if Ao Kiji does not control water, he controls ice, so, he can probably defend himself against fire with his own powers.
And do not forget that a little fire throwing meeting a big ice throwing would make the fire disappear and only makes the ice reducing a little.

There won't be enough water melting from the ice to deter Ace's fire i.e. he will be able to evaporate the water. With Ace's intense fire powers he will be able to melt a block of ice in a second. There is a difference between fire vs. water and ice vs. fire. Fire is actually able to overcome water (e.g. fire squad can't always able to put out massive fires, can they) because the heat of the fire will be able to evaporate the water (very quickly as shown by physics experiments). However, ice can not beat fire. Fire will always melt ice, no matter what.

As you see my reasoning, Ao Kiji could probably defend against fire long range with long range ice attacks. Then, he would not lose his intangibility and that is why Ace would have to be close to Ao Kiji to prevent him to use his powers against the fire, as it would be impossible theorically for Ao Kiji to form ice as he would not be able to freeze things anymore.

Yeah he probably will "defend against fire long range with long range ice attacks". The only problem with your theory there is Ace's fire will easily melt Aokiji's ice, causing the fire to actually hit Aokiji and consequently melting his body (causing to lose his intangibility).

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

There won't be enough water melting from the ice to deter Ace's fire i.e. he will be able to evaporate the water. With Ace's intense fire powers he will be able to melt a block of ice in a second.There is a difference between fire vs. water and ice vs. fire. Fire is actually able to overcome water (e.g. fire squad can't always able to put out massive fires, can they) because the heat of the fire will be able to evaporate the water (very quickly as shown by physics experiments). However, ice can not beat fire. Fire will always melt ice, no matter what.

Actually, it depends on the size of the ice and fire technics. Fire bullets or fire spears for example are definitely easy to stop with some big ice technics. That means fire can be stopped by ice in some circumstances.
I think that even the hiken could be stopped with a big harsh ice wall because it would not instantaneously pass through the ice.

Yeah he probably will "defend against fire long range with long range ice attacks". The only problem with your theory there is Ace's fire will easily melt Aokiji's ice, causing the fire to actually hit Aokiji and consequently melting his body (causing to lose his intangibility).

Stopped does not mean vanished : the fire does not have necessarily to be put out to be stopped. If the fire meets an obstacle - an ice technic - and does not melt it instantaneously or almost instantaneously, his trajectory will be affected and it will stop, even if it does not disappear and even if the ice is at the end totally turned into water.
This page, shows clearly how the wax, even if it melt, was useful to block the poison of the Hell's Judgement that melts everything. As you see, the poison of Hell's Judgement did not disappear, it was just stopped - because it had not instantaneously melt the giant candle wall - and Luffy, Mr 3 and the others were not touched by the melting poison even if finally the giant candle wall was melt.
To sum up, only fire that burns instantaneously or almost instantaneously ice will not be affected by an ice technic and will continue his trajectory.

That means if Ace does a fire attack with concentrated fire - that looks like lasers or Ki Zaru's concentrated light - it will necessarily melt instantaneously the ice and it will continue his trajectory with no problems. For example, if the crossfire meets a big harsh block of ice, it will just melt instantaneously the part of the ice touched and will continue his trajectory normally. This is the same thing with the Entei, it will not be stopped by ice as it melt it instantaneously.

But as I already said, the common fire - I mean the one with flames - can be stopped.

 

[Gecko Moria]

Actually, it depends on the size of the ice and fire technics. Fire bullets or fire spears for example are definitely easy to stop with some big ice technics. That means fire can be stopped by ice in some circumstances.
I think that even the hiken could be stopped with a big harsh ice wall because it would not instantaneously pass through the ice.


Stopped does not mean vanished : the fire does not have necessarily to be put out to be stopped. If the fire meets an obstacle - an ice technic - and does not melt it instantaneously or almost instantaneously, his trajectory will be affected and it will stop, even if it does not disappear and even if the ice is at the end totally turned into water.
This page, shows clearly how the wax, even if it melt, was useful to block the poison of the Hell's Judgement that melts everything. As you see, the poison of Hell's Judgement did not disappear, it was just stopped - because it had not instantaneously melt the giant candle wall - and Luffy, Mr 3 and the others were not touched by the melting poison even if finally the giant candle wall was melt.
To sum up, only fire that burns instantaneously or almost instantaneously ice will not be affected by an ice technic and will continue his trajectory.

That means if Ace does a fire attack with concentrated fire - that looks like lasers or Ki Zaru's concentrated light - it will necessarily melt instantaneously the ice and it will continue his trajectory with no problems. For example, if the crossfire meets a big harsh block of ice, it will just melt instantaneously the part of the ice touched and will continue his trajectory normally. This is the same thing with the Entei, it will not be stopped by ice as it melt it instantaneously.

But as I already said, the common fire - I mean the one with flames - can be stopped.

Fire can melt ice extremely fast, basically instantaneously. Ice can never actually stop fire no matter how much ice there is, the fire will win. A big ice wall is the same as a small ice wall, ice melts at a constant rate (depending on the intensity of the fire) so a massive ice wall will be useless. Ace doesn't need to break down the whole ice wall to hit Aokiji, only a small bit of it. One fire spear would go straight through an ice wall due to the heat energy of the flames. Aokiji's body would melt in the very presence of "Entei" (as the attack is similar to the sun itself) and it will easily be able to bypass as sort of ice defense. Aokiji practically has no way to beat Ace using his fruit's powers because fire will always defeat ice.

PS: Nice new avatar btw Lord Rayleigh