Totally agree that no one should be able to low diff an Admiral in the current series. If we get to a point that an Admiral can be low diffed we are also at the point that a Yonko can get low diffed (not counting Buggy). Oda would essentially have to create a new tier of strength that hasn't been revealed yet (this is highly possible since shonen get that way at the end). The very fact that we haven't seen any Admiral go all out yet is indicative of a lot considering Shonen tropes.
The whole Akainu vs WB encounter that many people use to say that Yonko are a stronger tier to me is a red herring. In that final exchange between WB and Akainu, WB received a fatal injury (big chunk of his head blown off) whereas Akainu only received mediumish (internal damage) injuries and was able to continue fighting. Outside of this one clash I don't think I've ever seen any other thing that people have used as evidence to claim that Yonko are superior to Admirals so I never got the whole Yonko > Admiral > YC etc.
The whole balance of powers also had Yonko & Navy as equals so it stands that the leaders of these organizations are on equal footing. I agree with @XXGenesis sentiment that when it comes to Yonko vs Admirals, it will come down to the individual. Some Yonko are stronger than some Admirals and vice versa.
Yeah. It's like saying Jinbei > Big Mom because he was able to shoulder throw her.
The only damage Akainu actually took in Marineford came from Whitebeard. Outside of that he was able to nullify Marco's attacks, his punch against Ace had Ace reeling in pain on the floor, and the blow that Shanks blocked was meant for Coby, a low level marine, so I think it's fair to say it wasn't Akainu's best attack. Outside of Whitebeard there was nobody who could hurt him, though.
Historically the higher level Marines have been powerful enough to take on Yonko directly. Whitebeard was at God Valley when Roger and Garp took on Rocks. Sengoku was able to hold off the entire Blackbeard Pirates with his Buddha / Karma attacks. I also think that someone sorta clumsy like Big Mom would probably struggle hard against Akainu.
Yeah. It's like saying Jinbei > Big Mom because he was able to shoulder throw her.
The only damage Akainu actually took in Marineford came from Whitebeard. Outside of that he was able to nullify Marco's attacks, his punch against Ace had Ace reeling in pain on the floor, and the blow that Shanks blocked was meant for Coby, a low level marine, so I think it's fair to say it wasn't Akainu's best attack. Outside of Whitebeard there was nobody who could hurt him, though.
Historically the higher level Marines have been powerful enough to take on Yonko directly. Whitebeard was at God Valley when Roger and Garp took on Rocks. Sengoku was able to hold off the entire Blackbeard Pirates with his Buddha / Karma attacks. I also think that someone sorta clumsy like Big Mom would probably struggle hard against Akainu.
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Based off of what? The three-ish panels we have of him where he's surrounded by defeated pirates?
I mainly just think that because he never showed as much damage potential as the other admirals have so far, whether in focused attacks or in an area. He does seem to be the best admiral at restraining enemies, though, besides Aokiji who isn't an admiral anymore of course.
Probably a controversial take on my end, but I'd argue that, at that particular point in time, Akainu likely would've been able to beat WB in an extended confrontation. His health was just that bad. And that's not to take anything from WB. As Mihawk noticed and stated, the Whitebeard at Marineford was one that was closer in strength to everyone else, which we know to be true given what we've seen him capable of during his Prime.
Whitebeard going as far as he did, despite being sick is quite impressive, but by the same measure, he was still considered the World's Strongest Man and the Admirals were basically the only ones throughout the war who were capable of contending with him toe to toe.
Probably. It's hard to say because Whitebeard had been stabbed and swarmed by Marines.
Akainu has the attack power to kill just about anyone in OP, I think. I really wonder what his deal is though. He's such an asshole. I read an interesting theory that based on his hatred for tainted bloodlines (Ace / Luffy), and his odd representation as a child that Oda created, he could be Rocks' child. Will have to dig it up, but basically there's some theory out there that similar to how Garp tried to groom Ace into the perfect Marine, Sengoku (or someone) did the same with Rocks' child and succeeded.
Probably. It's hard to say because Whitebeard had been stabbed and swarmed by Marines.
Akainu has the attack power to kill just about anyone in OP, I think. I really wonder what his deal is though. He's such an asshole. I read an interesting theory that based on his hatred for tainted bloodlines (Ace / Luffy), and his odd representation as a child that Oda created, he could be Rocks' child. Will have to dig it up, but basically there's some theory out there that similar to how Garp tried to groom Ace into the perfect Marine, Sengoku (or someone) did the same with Rocks' child and succeeded.
Honestly, I wouldn't really like that as it makes the world way more insulated than it needs to be going into the final arc. Nepotism already reigns supreme this late in the game, so I'd prefer the Admirals are outliers.
Personally, I just think he may have just come up in a completely lawless environment, maybe under the control of a Pirate who ran it like Kaido ran Wano, and this just further pushed him into his extremist thinking. He hates Ace and Luffy because their fathers are, basically, among the worst of the worst criminals and we know Absolute Justice drives him to eliminate every little detail related to whatever they consider "evil" no matter the cost.
Sengoku may not be as lax as Garp, but he's still closer to Moral Justice than Absolute Justice. It'd have to be someone else if anyone influence him at all. He just may be a crazy sumbitch on his own.
I just hope if Ryokugyu really fight against Luffy & Co he will fight differently.. Not like Kaido or many of Luffy opponent that seems to rely only in strength & power..
I hope he fight with brain, and also power off course, at least prepare something!!
I mean now that everybody know Luffy & Co are strong.. i expected Oda to not again make people underestimating Luffy.. it doesnt make any sense whatsoever..
You are basically making the "prediction", very late in the plot, that it will be very late in the plot until an Admiral is easy to take on. Even while Yonko also aren't easy to take on and still "high diff", at least the last two were.
Or in other words, to fully take account of the word "never", that the highest tier (so far) will forever remain high tier (again a kind of tautology and not that very surprising).
Also, Oda always modifies anything the way it's convenient for his plot and drama. Maybe some ability will one-shot Luffy, which next time will be simply ignored, just like that...
And regarding Yonko being comparatively "spread thin": hardly being shown to have any sort of impact on overall affairs, even when they easily could deal with so much, with the only exception being to serve as some sort of guard dog for a relatively small group of people normally hanging around in one place, doesn't make the Admirals deserve any special credit.
People are massively underestimating the Admirals, especially Fujitora because he clashed with Luffy, Zoro, Sabo, Law and Doflamingo without 1-shotting them.
I think that Admiral Fujitora has one of the most dangerous DF power with the ability to destroy the world exactly like Whitebeard’s.
Since Fujitora can attrack a meteorite from space onto Earth he should be able to break the gravitational orbit balance to make one of the One Piece moons collapse on Earth and destroy all living beings.
This quote gets taken out of context a lot. I think what Oda was trying to say here wasn't anything about Akainu being so insanely competent that he'd find Laugh Tale in a year and it'd be done and done.. what he really meant was that Akainu represents an end-game boss. If his protagonist, Luffy, is at Akainu's level at the start of the series, then there would be very little to challenge him.
I think it meant: Make Akainu the protagonist, and he becomes PK in one year. It speaks of both PL and competence for me, as well as how Oda sees Akainu as a character. To me, it's portrayal.
We only have two character who have received such hype from Oda.
The pirate king Roger himself, and his rival WB who could've becomes but chose not to. Maybe we can add Rocks here, since he was close to another title which is even superior - king of the world.
Probably a controversial take on my end, but I'd argue that, at that particular point in time, Akainu likely would've been able to beat WB in an extended confrontation. His health was just that bad. And that's not to take anything from WB. As Mihawk noticed and stated, the Whitebeard at Marineford was one that was closer in strength to everyone else, which we know to be true given what we've seen him capable of during his Prime.
Maybe, it's debatable IMO
I think it would've been a double KO.
Akainu kinda got lucky that he slid off the cliff when he was pretty much knocked out and temporarily immobilized.
If it didn't happen, WB would've killed him.
Whitebeard would've died from his injury soon after as well. He isn't surviving his chest/stomach getting a hole, and a hunk of his head blown away.
Whitebeard going as far as he did, despite being sick is quite impressive, but by the same measure, he was still considered the World's Strongest Man and the Admirals were basically the only ones throughout the war who were capable of contending with him toe to toe.
As for Whitebeard still being considered the strongest pirate/man.
IMO, it was because every time people saw Whitebeard, he was either in his meds, or not too far away from his meds (maybe a few hours, but that's it).
The Whitebeard who was still old, but in meds (which alleviated his sickness) had:
- conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, and Shanks is arguably the strongest conqueror's haki user alive
- observation haki which could allow him to no diff Ace in his sleep, who at the time was at minimum as strong as Jinbe
The Whitebeard we saw in Marineford was off his meds for days. This Whitebeard:
- had no conqueror's haki at all
- had weakened observation haki, to the point where Sqaurdo could land a cheap shot while he was sill awake and standing
- was so sick he was getting heart attacks mid battle
The old Whitebeard in Marineford wasn't the strongest alive pirate, while the old Whitebeard that marines and other pirates generally saw was the strongest pirate alive at that time.
And, Whitebeard himself commented on it after Crocodile got pissed at him, saying that he couldn't remain the strongest forever. Marco commented on it as well, saying he would normally have easily dodged attacks such as from Squardo
Totally agree that no one should be able to low diff an Admiral in the current series. If we get to a point that an Admiral can be low diffed we are also at the point that a Yonko can get low diffed (not counting Buggy). Oda would essentially have to create a new tier of strength that hasn't been revealed yet (this is highly possible since shonen get that way at the end). The very fact that we haven't seen any Admiral go all out yet is indicative of a lot considering Shonen tropes.
The whole Akainu vs WB encounter that many people use to say that Yonko are a stronger tier to me is a red herring. In that final exchange between WB and Akainu, WB received a fatal injury (big chunk of his head blown off) whereas Akainu only received mediumish (internal damage) injuries and was able to continue fighting. Outside of this one clash I don't think I've ever seen any other thing that people have used as evidence to claim that Yonko are superior to Admirals so I never got the whole Yonko > Admiral > YC etc.
The whole balance of powers also had Yonko & Navy as equals so it stands that the leaders of these organizations are on equal footing. I agree with @XXGenesis sentiment that when it comes to Yonko vs Admirals, it will come down to the individual. Some Yonko are stronger than some Admirals and vice versa.
But I would say generally Yonko > Admiral holds true, because all of the OG Yonkos had advanced conqueror's haki, which would give them the edge.
But there are exceptions too of course.
The admirals who are fleet admiral material (Garp, Sengoku, Akainu) would be as strong or stronger than the average Yonkos. They are also likely conquerors themselves (Sengoku confirmed, Garp heavily implied, Akainu most likely)
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Like you said, it depends on the individual.
Not all Yonkos are the same, same holds for admirals, though there is certainly a floor, you have to be extremely strong to become either.
Whitebeard at his peak was probably a tier above every other Yonko and was Roger's equal. Peak Garp, the strongest marine we know of, was also at that level.
Peak Sengoku was considered a major threat by Roger.
So on....
I think it meant: Make Akainu the protagonist, and he becomes PK in one year. It speaks of both PL and competence for me, as well as how Oda sees Akainu as a character. To me, it's portrayal.
We only have two character who have received such hype from Oda.
The pirate king Roger himself, and his rival WB who could've becomes but chose not to. Maybe we can add Rocks here, since he was close to another title which is even superior - king of the world.
You are basically making the "prediction", very late in the plot, that it will be very late in the plot until an Admiral is easy to take on. Even while Yonko also aren't easy to take on and still "high diff", at least the last two were.
Or in other words, to fully take account of the word "never", that the highest tier (so far) will forever remain high tier (again a kind of tautology and not that very surprising).
Also, Oda always modifies anything the way it's convenient for his plot and drama. Maybe some ability will one-shot Luffy, which next time will be simply ignored, just like that...
And regarding Yonko being comparatively "spread thin": hardly being shown to have any sort of impact on overall affairs, even when they easily could deal with so much, with the only exception being to serve as some sort of guard dog for a relatively small group of people normally hanging around in one place, doesn't make the Admirals deserve any special credit.
That's a lot of words to say "I didn't understand what you posted."
I'm not really sure what your overall point is. Mine, however, wasn't that Admirals are going to never be defeated. It's that those thinking that an admiral is going to be easily defeated at any point are overestimating Luffy.
Not sure what your last paragraph is intended to mean? Admirals have shown enough in the series to get credit for being a strong force to be reckoned with. I'm not sure what what you mean that they don't deserve any special credit.
I think it meant: Make Akainu the protagonist, and he becomes PK in one year. It speaks of both PL and competence for me, as well as how Oda sees Akainu as a character. To me, it's portrayal.
We only have two character who have received such hype from Oda.
The pirate king Roger himself, and his rival WB who could've becomes but chose not to. Maybe we can add Rocks here, since he was close to another title which is even superior - king of the world.
Maybe, it's debatable IMO
I think it would've been a double KO.
Akainu kinda got lucky that he slid off the cliff when he was pretty much knocked out and temporarily immobilized.
If it didn't happen, WB would've killed him.
Whitebeard would've died from his injury soon after as well. He isn't surviving his chest/stomach getting a hole, and a hunk of his head blown away.
Hence double KO
As for Whitebeard still being considered the strongest pirate/man.
IMO, it was because every time people saw Whitebeard, he was either in his meds, or not too far away from his meds (maybe a few hours, but that's it).
The Whitebeard who was still old, but in meds (which alleviated his sickness) had:
- conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, and Shanks is arguably the strongest conqueror's haki user alive
- observation haki which could allow him to no diff Ace in his sleep, who at the time was at minimum as strong as Jinbe
The Whitebeard we saw in Marineford was off his meds for days. This Whitebeard:
- had no conqueror's haki at all
- had weakened observation haki, to the point where Sqaurdo could land a cheap shot while he was sill awake and standing
- was so sick he was getting heart attacks mid battle
The old Whitebeard in Marineford wasn't the strongest alive pirate, while the old Whitebeard that marines and other pirates generally saw was the strongest pirate alive at that time.
And, Whitebeard himself commented on it after Crocodile got pissed at him, saying that he couldn't remain the strongest forever. Marco commented on it as well, saying he would normally have easily dodged attacks such as from Squardo
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Overall, I definitely agree with the sentiment.
But I would say generally Yonko > Admiral holds true, because all of the OG Yonkos had advanced conqueror's haki, which would give them the edge.
But there are exceptions too of course.
The admirals who are fleet admiral material (Garp, Sengoku, Akainu) would be as strong or stronger than the average Yonkos. They are also likely conquerors themselves (Sengoku confirmed, Garp heavily implied, Akainu most likely)
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Like you said, it depends on the individual.
Not all Yonkos are the same, same holds for admirals, though there is certainly a floor, you have to be extremely strong to become either.
Whitebeard at his peak was probably a tier above every other Yonko and was Roger's equal. Peak Garp, the strongest marine we know of, was also at that level.
Peak Sengoku was considered a major threat by Roger.
So on....
I don't disagree with this sentiment. I originally had the same view because of aCoC just seemed like such a huge power boost that it being introduced risked the Marines for me. We have never seen a single Marine use CoC haki and only have one confirmed Marine with it (Sengoku), with Garp being another likely user. So this made me think there is no way that Admirals stand a chance anymore but then I thought could Luffy easily (low diff) beat an Admiral right now (since he has aCoC+awakening+ridiculous DF) and it sounded ridiculous to me since it likely would be high diff win for him right now. So now I just think but I think Oda will end up closing that aCoC gap between Yonko & Admirals. I don't know if he'll just give them CoC haki too or show case something else but we def need to resolve the aCoC power gap.
Ranking wise the Admirals are the strongest in the Marines to me. I don't consider Fleet Admiral and even the higher Pan Fleet Admiral to be their own tiers above Admiral in strength. They are just higher ranked in military structure e.g. I don't think for a lot of Sengoku's tenure as Fleet Admiral (that we saw in manga) that he was stronger than any of the OG Admirals. I think Akainu is currently a young Fleet Admiral why he is still as strong as the other Admirals but overall I get the sense Fleet Admiral & Pan Fleet Admiral are just older experienced Admirals that are better strategic leaders than fighters now. Could be proven wrong though cuz Kong did look pretty strong even though he was an old man.
The problem with the idea that Admirals can never be low-diffed is that it's wrong. Luffy is already stronger than Big Mom was when he uses Gear 5th, so if he learns to activate Gear 5th at will, he could low diff some admirals. For example, i don't think he'd have much trouble winning against Ryoukyugu if he activated Gear 5th and used Gear 2nd, Gear 5th, and his rubber punches with Conqueror's Haki combined with Armament Haki. One or two combos of that would defeat him. Without Gear 5th, it would take just as long to win as long as he hit first and didn't get defeated immediately by a vine. Gear 5th just ups his movement speed, defense, and giant attack power, his Gear 2nd combos are just as strong.
Admirals are definitely among the top fighters, and they can definitely tangle with the emperors. The argument that they can't doesn't make sense, especially when Whitebeard was considered the strongest man alive even in his old age. Even then, he wasn't able to take down any admiral, and he was likely trying harder than the admirals.
To be honest, I can see an admiral or at least, Akainu, being able to severely damage an emperor, if not beat one.
I said they will never be low diffed. Can and will hold two different meanings. Aside from that, "the problem is.. .. that it's wrong" is not an argument for anything.
Luffy is already stronger than Big Mom was when he uses Gear 5th, so if he learns to activate Gear 5th at will, he could low diff some admirals. For example, i don't think he'd have much trouble winning against Ryoukyugu if he activated Gear 5th and used Gear 2nd, Gear 5th, and his rubber punches with Conqueror's Haki combined with Armament Haki. One or two combos of that would defeat him. Without Gear 5th, it would take just as long to win as long as he hit first and didn't get defeated immediately by a vine. Gear 5th just ups his movement speed, defense, and giant attack power, his Gear 2nd combos are just as strong.
You don't really have any evidence to support any of this. You have never seen Ryokugyu fight, and you have never seen Luffy fight Big Mom, and you haven't seen Ryokugyu fight Big Mom. You can't make a comparison with zero data. For all we know Oda could pull a "Green Bull is the strongest Admiral" card on us (just like he had Kizaru praise Weevil's strength saying it was akin to prime Whitebeard), and Luffy could get his ass kicked. We have zero way of knowing how a fight between Luffy and Green Bull would pan out. Marines haven't invaded Wano out of caution with a touch of fear of the unknown, combined with the geographical disadvantage they'd have in doing so (I mean, we saw King repel the entirety of BMP's ship + Big Mom herself from that strategic point).
What we know about Green Bull is that he's confident, and probably aware of his limits. He likely knows that three crews that just toppled two Yonko are up in the festival right now. I would be surprised if he doesn't have some plan. Anyways, main point: You can't gauge someone you've literally NEVER seen in a battle. You can, however, assume someone with the title of Admiral is strong. We can draw this assumption based on how the newest Admirals were enlisted; A show of strength / competition.
I said they will never be low diffed. Can and will hold two different meanings. Aside from that, "the problem is.. .. that it's wrong" is not an argument for anything.
You don't really have any evidence to support any of this. You have never seen Ryokugyu fight, and you have never seen Luffy fight Big Mom, and you haven't seen Ryokugyu fight Big Mom. You can't make a comparison with zero data. For all we know Oda could pull a "Green Bull is the strongest Admiral" card on us (just like he had Kizaru praise Weevil's strength saying it was akin to prime Whitebeard), and Luffy could get his ass kicked. We have zero way of knowing how a fight between Luffy and Green Bull would pan out. Marines haven't invaded Wano out of caution with a touch of fear of the unknown, combined with the geographical disadvantage they'd have in doing so (I mean, we saw King repel the entirety of BMP's ship + Big Mom herself from that strategic point).
What we know about Green Bull is that he's confident, and probably aware of his limits. He likely knows that three crews that just toppled two Yonko are up in the festival right now. I would be surprised if he doesn't have some plan. Anyways, main point: You can't gauge someone you've literally NEVER seen in a battle. You can, however, assume someone with the title of Admiral is strong. We can draw this assumption based on how the newest Admirals were enlisted; A show of strength / competition.
I didn't mean to imply that the admirals are weak. Luffy is simply very powerful at this point. Ryokugyu did fight Queen and King and apparently defeated them easily off panel, so you are still correct that we've never seen him fight. However, you implied something untrue because it's still possible to estimate his power level. The problem with that argument is that Sanji managed to beat Queen with difficulty, and Luffy can do a lot more damage than him, so that means Luffy could do the same thing as Ryokuygu could against both of them at once as Zoro also had trouble with King. It's because of Luffy's fast attack speed when he uses Gear 2nd and his Conqueror's Haki+Armament Haki punches. Akainu is the strongest admiral in damage output so far, and I don't think it's really possible for Greenbull to be stronger than him in direct immediate offensive damage. The best argument you could make right now for Luffy possibly losing to Greenbull is that Luffy hasn't activated Gear 5th at will yet, and if he doesn't, he might simply quickly lose if he messes up and gets restrained or hit by a strong vine attack. Anyways, I apologize for implying that Greenbull wasn't strong as he clearly is because he defeated Queen and King. I just think that there's an implicit assumption you make that battles between Yonko-level fighters like Luffy and admirals would necessarily be long enough that a low-diff could not be in effect, because if someone defeats their opponent quickly, it may seem like a low-diff fight.
I didn't mean to imply that the admirals are weak. Luffy is simply very powerful at this point. Ryokugyu did fight Queen and King and apparently defeated them easily off panel, so you are still correct that we've never seen him fight. However, you implied something untrue because it's still possible to estimate his power level. The problem with that argument is that Sanji managed to beat Queen with difficulty, and Luffy can do a lot more damage than him, so that means Luffy could do the same thing as Ryokuygu could against both of them at once as Zoro also had trouble with King. It's because of Luffy's fast attack speed when he uses Gear 2nd and his Conqueror's Haki+Armament Haki punches. Akainu is the strongest admiral in damage output so far, and I don't think it's really possible for Greenbull to be stronger than him in direct immediate offensive damage. The best argument you could make right now for Luffy possibly losing to Greenbull is that Luffy hasn't activated Gear 5th at will yet, and if he doesn't, he might simply quickly lose if he messes up and gets restrained or hit by a strong vine attack. Anyways, I apologize for implying that Greenbull wasn't strong as he clearly is because he defeated Queen and King. I just think that there's an implicit assumption you make that battles between Yonko-level fighters like Luffy and admirals would necessarily be long enough that a low-diff could not be in effect, because if someone defeats their opponent quickly, it may seem like a low-diff fight.
Again, you can't compare Luffy to someone you've never seen in action. You're operating on assumptions. None of the comparisons mentioned hold much weight at all.
Again, you can't compare Luffy to someone you've never seen in action. You're operating on assumptions. None of the comparisons mentioned hold much weight at all.
That's not much of an argument. The point I didn't get around to was that one side or the other being quickly defeated is not a low-diff fight, it just means some characters could be defeated or win quickly. However, sometimes it would be a low-diff fight if one side lacks the means to quickly defeat the other. I just think that is a possibility that usually is not relevant because most protagonists and antagonists tend to lack instant-win potential. Big Mom did have that potential in the WCI arc, and they had to always flee her or keep her from one-shotting protagonists at all times. I do think it would help if you said what made my assumptions wrong. I realize i can only estimate so much, but I'm not sure what I'm missing. Rather, I'm not sure what i could be missing out on.
I think the greater problem with trying to powerscale the Admirals is that outside of an old/sick Whitebeard, Admirals have never fought 'Yonko-caliber' fighters 'onscreen', to my knowledge.
Personally, I feel the claims of Whitebeard being the 'strongest man in the world' are just a relic of when he was closer to his prime and after Roger's passing. I am a bit skeptical that Whitebeard, old, sick and hooked up to machines could go against Kaido in a 1vs1. Prime Whitebeard I'm sure slaps the shit out of Kaido, but Marineford Whitebeard just isn't it for me.
And this is the problem, feats can seem great, but when they are against inferior fighters it isn't really showing anything. Just because Admirals and Yonko both stomp Yonko Commanders/Warlords/etc doesn't mean Admirals = Yonko.
With how vast/numerous the Marine's are, I'm not sure how the balance of power would be kept in check if a single admiral could rival a Yonko. I'm not sure how Marineford wasn't just IMMEDIATELY a stomp if the Marine's had 3 Yonko-class fighters, plus Garp/Sengoku/etc.
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To expand, my opinion has always been,
One Yonko > One Admiral (Low/Mid Diff for Yonko)
One Yonko = Two Admirals (Extreme Diff for Yonko)
One Yonko < Three Admirals (Impossible for Yonko)
@catagon87
Thanks for the link, I see.
So, basically any EOS boss level character and Akainu was just used as an example. Still, this hypes up Akainu, just lesser than what I thought lol
I don't disagree with this sentiment. I originally had the same view because of aCoC just seemed like such a huge power boost that it being introduced risked the Marines for me. We have never seen a single Marine use CoC haki and only have one confirmed Marine with it (Sengoku), with Garp being another likely user. So this made me think there is no way that Admirals stand a chance anymore but then I thought could Luffy easily (low diff) beat an Admiral right now (since he has aCoC+awakening+ridiculous DF) and it sounded ridiculous to me since it likely would be high diff win for him right now. So now I just think but I think Oda will end up closing that aCoC gap between Yonko & Admirals. I don't know if he'll just give them CoC haki too or show case something else but we def need to resolve the aCoC power gap.
Ranking wise the Admirals are the strongest in the Marines to me. I don't consider Fleet Admiral and even the higher Pan Fleet Admiral to be their own tiers above Admiral in strength. They are just higher ranked in military structure e.g. I don't think for a lot of Sengoku's tenure as Fleet Admiral (that we saw in manga) that he was stronger than any of the OG Admirals. I think Akainu is currently a young Fleet Admiral why he is still as strong as the other Admirals but overall I get the sense Fleet Admiral & Pan Fleet Admiral are just older experienced Admirals that are better strategic leaders than fighters now. Could be proven wrong though cuz Kong did look pretty strong even though he was an old man.
I have never considered advanced conqueror's haki as the most OP thing ever. It is a big bonus to attack and defence, but that's about it. An equivalent of this is something that powerful devil fruits can replicate too, to an extend.
I think Oda did the Law/Kid vs BM as a thematic "devil fruit" battle for this particular reason.
He wanted to demonstrate that advanced conqueror's haki isn't the be-all and end-all of the powerscaling, and that you can reach the highest levels of power in OP using primarily DF as well, rather than primarily haki. Two powerful devil fruit users, who are barely getting accustomed to their DF awakenings, managed to take down a Yonko using their DF skills.
This, most importantly, keeps the yonko vs admiral debate unsettled.
Because, the admirals are all powerful DF users. Though they definitely have advanced armament haki at least and are beasts just by pure stats, their main strength comes from their powerful DF
And lastly, I do believe that though advanced conqueror's haki isn't the absolute difference maker, having it is still better than not having it.
I also believe that there are admirals who have conqueror's haki and those who don't. Sengoku is confirmed to have it. Garp and Akainu very likely have it too. But apart from these three top tier marines, I think the admirals lose in a pure 1v1 against Yonkos.
Not saying they will get stomped or anything, a high-extreme diff for sure, but they will still lose IMO.
As for admiral vs fleet-admiral thing.
Even though logically your argument makes sense. Thematically/narratively, I don't think Oda would ever let the 3 admirals be individually stronger than Akainu - the fleet admiral. I think same applied to the admirals of the previous gen as well, Sengoku was probably the 1 in 3 who had it, and was also likely the strongest amongst them.
I think Oda did the Law/Kid vs BM as a thematic "devil fruit" battle for this particular reason. He wanted to demonstrate that advanced conqueror's haki isn't the be-all and end-all of the powerscaling, and that you can reach the highest levels of power in OP using primarily DF as well, rather than primarily haki. Two powerful devil fruit users, who are barely getting accustomed to their DF awakenings, managed to take down a Yonko using their DF skills.
I don't see that tbh. It wasn't long after that kaido that kaido basically screamed at luffy that haki is the actual be-all an end all of all powerscaling. If anything, luffy was able to breach the gap between him and kaido because of haki. Of course, luffy got his awakening as well though I've made the case that one of the benefits it afforded him is that the form doesn't have the haki overconsumption of gear 4 which freed up luffy's haki for other things. In turn kidd and law never came close to breaching the gap between them and a yonko hence their double teaming big mom. Add to that, what ultimately took down big mom was throwing her into a volcano with a bunch of bombs. Abilities are powerful and meaningful in the story but actual combat no doubt revolves around haki. There's also a good chance that this will play a role in BB's eventual defeat.
On the fleet admiral vs admiral thing... I think there is a solid case to be made that fleet admirals are actually yonko level. Sengoku held his own against BB's entire crew and this in his old age. Garp who is presumably sengoku's equal was someone roger himself enjoyed fighting. I am not sold yet on the admirals from back then being yonko level. WB struggled with his health all through the fight and things turned out the way they did... I don't think this shows akainu as yonko level. Besides, if the 3 or even 2 admirals were yonko level then they could basically level yonko crews themselves. In turn the admirals were pretty concerned by yonko commanders during the war. I do believe akainu has basically grown into actual yonko level over the past 2 years. If only because the plot requires it.
In MF , Oda had to put several handicaps on WB to make the story interesting:-
1)Old WB was sick & almost always surrounded by medical equipments and nurses & Oda drew many other scenes and lines emphasizing that Wb's sickness was weakening him a lot. Even Crocodile & Marco confirmed that later etc.
2)He got stabbed by Squardo.
3)He got heart attack due to his health issues mid fight at the unluckiest & worst possible time. (i.e. when facing Akainu)
4)Akainu encashed on this opportunity and dealt a huge blow on WB...a chance that he got for free & WB took even more damage.
5)WB was shown to be so weak that he couldnt even activate his basic CoC to save Ace from execution twice let alone his Acoc. So he fought without Acoc in MF.
^^ Despite of the above handicaps an old & sick near dead WB temporarily 2 KOd Akainu after Ace died.
After Akainu was hit by WB's island splitter , having taken that hit , Akainu became so weak that he wasn't even strong enough to prevent himself from falling into the crack. Just like fodder marines around him at that very moment who also were falling into that crack , yes Akainu had become as weak as them since they were also unable to prevent themselves from falling into the crack. All Akainu could do was say "Damn you Whitebeard". Thats as good as accepting defeat in Akainu's own words. Yes after a while he recovered enough strength to be able to overpower ivankov & some wb commanders.
And no dont say that Oh but Akainu wanted to kill Luffy first. Yeah he wanted to sure. But when WB landed his first punch , Akainu accepted the challenge and blew WB's head off (old sick & near dead WB was very slow since he couldnt dodge squardo's attack either) so Akainu clearly wanted to fight WB at that moment but after getting overwhelmed by WB's island splitter he was shut down & all he could say at that point was "Damn you WB" lol.
Shanks or Kaido wont be getting heart attack mid battle vs any Admiral. They will fight without the above 5 handicaps vs Akainu. Old & sick & near dead WB even with the above 5 handicaps still overwhelmed Akainu & sent him straight into the huge crack created by his island splitter move. So Kaido & Shanks will perform much better than that old sick & near dead WB.
>>Shanks/Kaido/& even just an old WB without the above 5 handicaps(eg. an Old WB who could use Acoc, who is not sick , who is not stabbed by squardo, who does not get heart attack & akainu doesnt get to weaken him by getting a lucky chance to land a free hit on wb) definitely mid diff Akainu.
>>Prime Xebec/Roger/WB low diff Akainu at the minimum because Prime WB had got to be much much stronger than even the old WB, let alone compared to an old sick & near dead WB with 5 handicaps set on him throughout the war.
>>Akainu looks headed to be in all likelihood not even be the final main villan of Luffy. Sabo vs Akainu a rematch of mera mera & magma df seems more likely right now. Imu(who is most likely the King of the World which is what Xebec's ambition was) & 5 Gorosei look to be Luffy's final villans.
>>None of the Admirals have Acoc and we saw how much boost acoc gives in luffy vs kaido fight. Kaido even said it himself in the end that Haki rules above everything else. And Admirals are primarily df heavy fighters primarily. They definitely have strong haki but them so far not having Acoc bodes very poorly for them vs Kaido/shanks with Acoc let alone PK Roger who must have been even stronger than a "mere yonko".
Old& sick Wb was a mere yonko but Prime WB was Roger's equal.<-buggy's words .
>>Damage tanking feats of old&sick Wb, BM & Kaido are far more impressive than what Admirals have shown so far.
>>Lastly , just see the protrayal difference in latest spoiler chapter.
But despite all of the above Admirals might still not be shown to be low diffed because they are great villans & them being low diffed will dehype them a lot & oda isnt that bad of a writer.
Character wise i love Admirals more than certain yonkos like BM but power wise Yonkos with their Acoc & tanking feats trump easily over Admirals in my book & has been implictly suggested in the manga & i listed above just a few of those evidences.
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TLDR:-
>>MF near dead WB (who despite of the above 5 handicaps (see first 5 points handicaps that oda set on MF WB) overwhelmed Akainu with the island splitter.....later feats that Akainu did are irrelevant to what went down between near dead old sick Wb vs Akainu)>Akainu.
^^ This version of WB (i.e. old sick MF WB <- called the strongest man even by MF sengoku)extreme diffs Akainu .
>>Shanks/Kaido/Old Wb(with Acoc, without sickness,without squardo stab, without mid battle heart attack,without taking damage by akainu's free hit which he got as a lucky chance due to wb getting heart attack at the worst moment possible) >> Akainu
^^ They high diff Akainu
>>Prime WB who has gotta be far more stronger than an old version of himself >>> Akainu. So Prime Xebec/Prime Roger/Prime WB belong to PK tier (A tier above even the Yonko Shanks/Kaido). These Monsters low diff Akainu.
