I mean, that's exactly what he did, lol. He even said as much. He wanted Luffy and Dressrosa to solve the issue themselves to basically undermine the WG and the Shichibukai system. The King of Dressrosa even implied that Fujitora set everything up to go that way.
Fujitora would likely stomp Doflamingo if the two were to go at it.
Birdcage (and Parasite) is another story due to plot shenanigans. The way it was portrayed, it would've given Wapolmetal a run for it's money in the durability department.
I mean specifically at the birdcage bit. If he could have destroyed it, he would have. At that point people were either running for their lives or getting flattened by rubble. Fujitora would obviously crush doflamingo however once the birdcage was active he couldn't just swoop in to finish him quickly, he needed to stay put to slow down the birdcage. If fujitora could have done otherwise then as I said, he'd be an zealous piece of shit that would gamble away the lives of an entire country on the off chance of slightly embarrassing the world government over the shichibukai.
Green Bull was intimidated into leaving, sure, but he left unscathed and Oda still tossed in the line that he is fine with confronting them in the future, just not at that time. He came for Luffy and that's it. He didn't anticipate fighting a completely fresh Yonkou crew. A crew, which we've been explicitly told, is noteworthy for being comprised of elite fighters, to the point that they were highlighted along with Shanks during the Marines' meeting. No other Yonkou got that.
We've reached the final arc and Oda has been consistent in telling us that the Admirals are the pinnacle of power along with the Yonkou. It shouldn't be long before we see what they are actually capable of feat-wise. If we see any of the Admirals get molly whopped in a direct confrontation with Shanks, BB, or Luffy, then yeah, it will show without a doubt that the Admirals aren't on the Yonkou level. But I don't see that being the case.
Was he intimidated though, or was he picking his battle? I mean, we just saw what happens when one fights an emperor, and Green Bull likely would not want anyone else to join the fray against him if he fought Shanks, or even afterwards if he won, as he'd likely be too exhausted. Other than that, I agree with you.
Luffy's probably one of the very very very few crazy fucks that'd be willing to fight an emperor, but even he chose not to fight Big Mom on WCI because he knew it'd be a difficult fight when he had to focus on beating Kaidou first.
When? As far as I know, the only direct confrontation between a Yonkou and an Admiral was Akainu getting slapped by a near-death, battle-worn and virtually haki-less Whitebeard?
The pinnacle of power is Roger, Prime Garp, Prime Whitebeard and by inference Xebec. I think a lot of people informally rate this as 'Pirate-king' level. They are in a league above Admirals.
Was he intimidated though, or was he picking his battle? I mean, we just saw what happens when one fights an emperor, and Green Bull likely would not want anyone else to join the fray against him if he fought Shanks, or even afterwards if he won, as he'd likely be too exhausted. Other than that, I agree with you.
But the only marine who was outright compared to Roger, throughout the narrative was Garp.
Sengoku was someone who was treated as a legitimate threat by Roger.
While this does show that he is very strong, it isn't sufficient to show he is indeed Roger/prime WB level. I would guess that prime Sengoku was as strong as Kaido at minimum.
Welp, it should mean they have the capacity to cut roughly equivalent areas in general. And while it is true that this doesn't mean they specifically can cut anything aramaki related we didn't see them throwing attacks which presumably would cut a mountain. haki in this... forest gundam type situation is unclear as well. We can't really tell what is or isn't covered in haki though I am inclined to assume that not everything at all times is covered in haki. For efficiency's sake.
Oda isn't gonna draw haki for that giant forest lol. Plus, armament is not even necessarily black all the time.
Anyway, we can agree that if someone like Dresrossa Zoro could chop the entire forest in half, then this admiral would be no threat at all?
Yes, he can rebuild them, but will take time and effort. By simply scaling, this couldn't happen, or else Greenbull is no threat at all.
That's not how the battle at zou presumably played out. The mink had two armies which alternated with one another. Each one fought for 12 hours straight and then swapped with the other to take its turn to rest. Add to that the mink having very strong combatants outside of inu and neku. We know their top officers are pretty damn competent. Pedro was worth 400 mil and shishilian seems to be about as good at least. Jack went at it with very few headliners iirc and just random militias with some smile users. To me that points towards jack having a definitive edge over inu or neko individually in their base forms. Sulong levels the field but the edge it gives them is probably not gigantic.
Oda isn't gonna draw haki for that giant forest lol. Plus, armament is not even necessarily black all the time.
Anyway, we can agree that if someone like Dresrossa Zoro could chop the entire forest in half, then this admiral would be no threat at all?
Yes, he can rebuild them, but will take time and effort. By simply scaling, this couldn't happen, or else Greenbull is no threat at all.
Using Haki on mountain-sized slashes all the time will drain your Haki in no time. Besides it won't be very strong compared to focusing it on a single point.
I mean specifically at the birdcage bit. If he could have destroyed it, he would have. At that point people were either running for their lives or getting flattened by rubble. Fujitora would obviously crush doflamingo however once the birdcage was active he couldn't just swoop in to finish him quickly, he needed to stay put to slow down the birdcage. If fujitora could have done otherwise then as I said, he'd be an zealous piece of shit that would gamble away the lives of an entire country on the off chance of slightly embarrassing the world government over the shichibukai.
Was he intimidated though, or was he picking his battle? I mean, we just saw what happens when one fights an emperor, and Green Bull likely would not want anyone else to join the fray against him if he fought Shanks, or even afterwards if he won, as he'd likely be too exhausted. Other than that, I agree with you.
Luffy's probably one of the very very very few crazy fucks that'd be willing to fight an emperor, but even he chose not to fight Big Mom on WCI because he knew it'd be a difficult fight when he had to focus on beating Kaidou first.
Bit of column A and a bit of column B for the reasons you posted. A difficult fight is already guaranteed against Shanks, but with his crew assisting, he's at a clear disadvantage. It's fair to call that an intimidating situation, one that he chose to avoid that day.
When things don't clearly lean one way, he's probably going to more likely to take a shot as he implied.
The post claimed that Admirals are the pinnacles of power.
- Is Blackbeard the same level as Roger or Prime Garp or Prime Whitebeard? Is Akainu?
- Same as above.
- A past his prime Whitebeard with significant injuries and barely functioning Haki.
- Is non-prime Rayleigh the pinnacle of power?
- Ace is a Commander-level pirate, with a devil-fruit inferiority.
I'm not saying the Admirals are weak. But the poster I was replying to said that the Admirals are the pinnacles of power along with the Yonkou, I don't think this is true. There is clearly a tier above this.
The post claimed that Admirals are the pinnacles of power.
- Is Blackbeard the same level as Roger or Prime Garp or Prime Whitebeard? Is Akainu?
- Same as above.
- A past his prime Whitebeard with significant injuries and barely functioning Haki.
- Is non-prime Rayleigh the pinnacle of power?
- Ace is a Commander-level pirate, with a devil-fruit inferiority.
I'm not saying the Admirals are weak. But the poster I was replying to said that the Admirals are the pinnacles of power along with the Yonkou, I don't think this is true. There is clearly a tier above this.
The Yonkos don't compare to prime Whitebeard, Roger or prime Garp either. So it's unfair to compare admirals to them.
Current Admirals scale to current top tiers, which are the Yonko
Admirals of the previous gen were serious challenges to Roger and co as well. Since Garp (defacto considered an admiral) is basically stated to be Roger level, and Roger considers Sengoku to be a serious threat to him.
Yeah, I was 50/50 on including Prime Sengoku. I think in a 1vs1 he isn't QUITE in that Pirate king-level I have in my mind. I kind of see it like this, I've listed them in order of strength in their tier (just my opinion),
Pirate-King Level
- Roger / EoS Luffy / Rocks [Purely from Roger+Garp both fighting]
- Prime Garp / EoS Blackbeard
- Prime Whitebeard
Yonko Level
- Shanks / EoS Zoro
- Current Luffy / Prime Rayleigh / Mihawk / Kaido / Big Mom / Old Whitebeard in Good Condition / EoS Akainu / Oden / EoS Sabo
- Prime Sengoku
- Old Whitebeard + Injuries
Admiral Level
- Kizaru / EoS Sanji
- Aokiji / Fujitora
- Greenbull / Old Sengoku
- Ben Beckman
- Marco / King
The post claimed that Admirals are the pinnacles of power.
- Is Blackbeard the same level as Roger or Prime Garp or Prime Whitebeard? Is Akainu?
- Same as above.
- A past his prime Whitebeard with significant injuries and barely functioning Haki.
- Is non-prime Rayleigh the pinnacle of power?
- Ace is a Commander-level pirate, with a devil-fruit inferiority.
I'm not saying the Admirals are weak. But the poster I was replying to said that the Admirals are the pinnacles of power along with the Yonkou, I don't think this is true. There is clearly a tier above this.
We don't know if Blackbeard is on the level of those. You know why? Because they are all dead with the exception of Garp who is just well past his prime. There's very little overlap in fights between these characters.
You don't know anything about how functional Whitebeard's haki was as the last scenes he was alive we knew basically zero about haki.
The current Admirals are on the Yonko level. If they weren't, then the Yonko would just take over the entire world without resistance. There would be nothing stopping them. Kaido was confident enough that he could take the entire opposing army, solo, after defeating Luffy.
Yeah, I was 50/50 on including Prime Sengoku. I think in a 1vs1 he isn't QUITE in that Pirate king-level I have in my mind. I kind of see it like this, I've listed them in order of strength in their tier (just my opinion),
Pirate-King Level
- Roger / EoS Luffy / Rocks [Purely from Roger+Garp both fighting]
- Prime Garp / EoS Blackbeard
- Prime Whitebeard
Yonko Level
- Shanks / EoS Zoro
- Current Luffy / Prime Rayleigh / Mihawk / Kaido / Big Mom / Old Whitebeard in Good Condition / EoS Akainu / Oden / EoS Sabo
- Prime Sengoku
- Old Whitebeard + Injuries
Admiral Level
- Kizaru / EoS Sanji
- Aokiji / Fujitora
- Greenbull / Old Sengoku
- Ben Beckman
- Marco / King
Old WB (in meds) should be above Shanks, considering he had conqueror's haki on par with him. Plus WB has his devil fruit
Old WB (in meds) was also considered the strongest man and strongest pirate
Kaido vs Shanks is honestly debatable, but portrayal advantage goes to Kaido due to Kaido being referred to as the strongest pirate after WB died, 1v1 alway bet on Kaido etc.
Maybe that is due to Shanks not going all out yet, hence people not knowing. But this is yet to be confirmed
Prime Sengoku is definitely on the upper ends of the "yonko tier", considering Roger considered him a major threat capable of maybe bringing him down, on a good day.
Marco doesn't belong in admiral tier (saying this as someone who had previously argued for Marco being in admiral tier). And King definitely doesn't belong there, considering Greenbull stomped him. Yeah, King might have been injured, but King + Queen + all the BP together got folded like nothing, with Greenbull commenting on how commanders are nothing to him.
This clearly isn't Greenbull talking out of his ass, because even in spite of his arrogance he very well knows his limitations, considering he knows he shouldn't F with Kaido or Shanks
Greenbull also easily dealt with Scabbards (minus 2 who died), and Scabbards are strong, some of them (namely Kyoshiro, Cat and Dog) even in the low-mid commander level.
We don't know if Blackbeard is on the level of those. You know why? Because they are all dead with the exception of Garp who is just well past his prime. There's very little overlap in fights between these characters.
Narratively, EoS Blackbeard is likely gonna get to Rocks level, and EoS Luffy is likely gonna get to Roger level.
Considering, BB is paralleled with Rocks, and Luffy with Roger
Oda might even throw some manga statements when this happens, maybe Sengoku or Garp will comment on their strengths being comparable to Roger/Rocks
Actually, we kinda do know. At least when old Whitebeard was on his meds. The old WB in Marineford was out of meds for days, and is a different story
Old WB (in meds):
1. split the sky with Shanks, indicating comparable conqueror's haki to Shanks, who is now pretty much confirmed the strongest haki user currently alive
2. one shotted Ace (who was at least Jinbe level back then) in his sleep, indicating "always on" strong observation haki (maybe even future sight)
Old WB (out of meds for days):
1. got heart attack while trying to use conqueror's haki
2. got stabbed by Squardo (much below Jinbe tiers) who was standing right in front of him
The current Admirals are on the Yonko level. If they weren't, then the Yonko would just take over the entire world without resistance. There would be nothing stopping them. Kaido was confident enough that he could take the entire opposing army, solo, after defeating Luffy.
Though I think Yonkos are a bit above admirals on average.
Say, if we average out all Yonkos (except Buggy) to 100, I think average of all admirals will be say 90 or 95. There might be exceptions like Akainu who probably is above 100, but generally speaking Yonkos > admirals. I think the narrative also definitely supports this.
Though anyone still spouting "2 admirals = Yonko" or "3 admirals = Yonko" are straight up braindead, given everything we know now.
Law + Kid = 1 Yonko, this should really shut down the admiral downplay.
Yeah I am a bit 50/50 on this one too. The reason I put Shanks slightly higher is that I get the feeling like Shanks hasn't really made any big moves and has been biding his time all these years without really showing his entire strength. It's just a personal feeling without any evidence so you're welcome to disagree.
& In terms of my tier list, I'm not saying because Shanks is higher up he beats Kaidou 100 times out of 100 fights. It's maybe...60 out of 100 fights? Just a slight edge.
&& Regarding your point on King, I'm not sure it's fair to assess him on his Greenbull performance give he lost one of his Wings and he was heavily injured. It's like assessing Whitebeard after he was stabbed through the chest at Marineford. We also know very little about Greenbull or the fight as a whole. His DF might allow him to regenerate/heal injuries so he looks 100% when infact the battle was tough. Ultimately King was still someone that pushed current albeit injured Zoro, and given Zoro could cut Kaidou without ACoC but needed it to damage King, his durability/toughness is extremely high. I do rate him at the very lowest point on my 'Admiral Level' though. Does he beat Aokiji? Maybe 10 fights out of 100?
I think what people forget with this is that the reason this hasn't happened - even though I believe only Akainu can enter Yonkou-level - is that most of the other Yonkou's are ALSO enemies of every other Yonkou. The thing that stops say, Kaidou from inflicted enormous damage to the Marines is that if he did, his forces would be depleted to such an extent that another Yonkou, such as Big Mom could swoop in whilst he's weakened and eradicate him and his crew. Yonkou keep the power balance with each other in effect.
The reason the Marines freaked out when Kaidou and Big Mom were to enter an alliance is because that is a threat they can't take on. There might be other reasons for the following given Gorosei shennanigans with Shanks, but kind of like when nobody wanted to fight the Red-Hair pirates at Marineford. Shanks + Whitebeard > Marines. I don't think anyone thinks the three original admirals could face two Yonko? Or maybe I underestimate people's views haha.
In essence. The world balance was that the Marines + the Warlords were enough of a threat that it would consume so much of a Yonkou's crew that they would be weak to another Yonkou.
Yeah I am a bit 50/50 on this one too. The reason I put Shanks slightly higher is that I get the feeling like Shanks hasn't really made any big moves and has been biding his time all these years without really showing his entire strength. It's just a personal feeling without any evidence so you're welcome to disagree.
& In terms of my tier list, I'm not saying because Shanks is higher up he beats Kaidou 100 times out of 100 fights. It's maybe...60 out of 100 fights? Just a slight edge.
&& Regarding your point on King, I'm not sure it's fair to assess him on his Greenbull performance give he lost one of his Wings and he was heavily injured. It's like assessing Whitebeard after he was stabbed through the chest at Marineford. We also know very little about Greenbull or the fight as a whole. His DF might allow him to regenerate/heal injuries so he looks 100% when infact the battle was tough. Ultimately King was still someone that pushed current albeit injured Zoro, and given Zoro could cut Kaidou without ACoC but needed it to damage King, his durability/toughness is extremely high. I do rate him at the very lowest point on my 'Admiral Level' though. Does he beat Aokiji? Maybe 10 fights out of 100?
Yeah, the entire fight was off screen. We don't know how exactly it went.
But the way Greenbull framed it, he didn't consider King worth anything at all. Greenbull is arrogant, but he does assess his enemies pretty much on point, so far (except for those he haven't seen, like the pirate alliance which took down Kaido)
Yes, so far it seems like only advanced conqueror's haki can damage King.
But that is because we have not seen OP devil fruits in their awakened forms. As we have seen in the current arc as well, another way than advanced conqueror's to reach the top, is to have overpowered Devil fruits.
For example, Law can easily bypass King's defence and damage him from within. I'm fairly certain all admirals are very strong awakened DF users, they should be able to do stuff to him. We even saw that Greenbull's DF was working on him.
Nah, Aokiji wins 100 out of 100 times against King.
Admirals >> King.
I can see Ben Beckman being strong enough to give a serious challenge to admirals, but that's about it. None of the other YCs are doing anything to admirals at all.
Marco can fight on for a while given his feats against Kizaru, Big Mom and King+Queen, but he will eventually lose too, maybe mid diff.
He clearly was intimidated.
He sensed a powerful conqueror's haki, and shook before even realizing it was Shanks.
You later see him kind of showing a "hands up" sign, indicating that he clearly was intimidated as well
But the only marine who was outright compared to Roger, throughout the narrative was Garp.
Sengoku was someone who was treated as a legitimate threat by Roger.
While this does show that he is very strong, it isn't sufficient to show he is indeed Roger/prime WB level. I would guess that prime Sengoku was as strong as Kaido at minimum.
Intimidated but still willing to fight Shanks later. Not to mention, he didn't faint, so he either has confidence or could go toe-to-toe with Shanks. But I highly doubt he'd go after a Yonkou on his own when outnumbered by several enemies.
Yeah, but as far as we know, Garp was the only one who kept going after Roger constantly, and didn't he ignore orders so he could keep going after Roger? That doesn't necessarily mean Sengoku isn't at that level, especially if he was going after other pirates. There's always different reasons why unless manga explains it clearly.
Bit of column A and a bit of column B for the reasons you posted. A difficult fight is already guaranteed against Shanks, but with his crew assisting, he's at a clear disadvantage. It's fair to call that an intimidating situation, one that he chose to avoid that day.
When things don't clearly lean one way, he's probably going to more likely to take a shot as he implied.
all the time. I wonder how serious his reaction can be taken...
