Discussion Admirals are absolute power-houses that will never be "low-diffed"

[Pirate Queen]

Sounds like a post one makes when they are worried.

Admirals are low key bums

 

[Fox666]

I think Fujitora and Ryokugyu were never supposed to be on par with Kizaru and the others

They have been consistently portrayed as being not much stronger than a commander

Their greatest feat is Ryokugyu overpowering Yamato

 

[Idkwhatanameis]

These 2 new admirals will never compare to the big 3 before them. Can’t see them beating any 1 of them. So take that into account. This generation will surpass the old for sure Luffy/Zoro/Kidd/Law but I can’t say the same for the marines maybe coby and somehow smoker with training but I just don’t see them giving our straw hats or anyone of relevance much trouble. Maybe a fully bloodlusted Fuji with awakening but as far as armaki most top tier characters can handle him even Sanji.

That’s why I believe yes people like EOS Luffy/Blackbeard, Zoro, and even Akainu himself can lowdiff admirals such as armaki/Fuji.

 

[HereNThere]

Green Bull was intimidated into leaving, sure, but he left unscathed and Oda still tossed in the line that he is fine with confronting them in the future, just not at that time. He came for Luffy and that's it. He didn't anticipate fighting a completely fresh Yonkou crew. A crew, which we've been explicitly told, is noteworthy for being comprised of elite fighters, to the point that they were highlighted along with Shanks during the Marines' meeting. No other Yonkou got that.

We've reached the final arc and Oda has been consistent in telling us that the Admirals are the pinnacle of power along with the Yonkou. It shouldn't be long before we see what they are actually capable of feat-wise. If we see any of the Admirals get molly whopped in a direct confrontation with Shanks, BB, or Luffy, then yeah, it will show without a doubt that the Admirals aren't on the Yonkou level. But I don't see that being the case.

 

[kkck]

Admirals being yonko level wouldn't make sense to begin with. None of the marineford arc makes any sense if akainu, kizaru and aokiji each had it in them to go toe to toe with kaido or big mom. Even if we assume WB's commanders were well ahead of the curve compared to other yonko executives. Even during the wano arc the implication was that if luffy didn't defeat kaido then kaido even in a weakened state would have easily destroyed the entirety of the remaining samurai forces in onigashima.

That said, it's not really fair to frame isho or aramaki as merely commander level. Sabo is probably pretty high up there in terms of potential. He might have been admiral level even before getting a devil fruit. We also don't have any idea of how strong the remaining revolutionary commanders are. Yamato is a CoC capable of cladding... Which is insane. She is probably stronger than any of kaido's calamities to begin with.

 

[Hibari Kyoya]

Oda has been consistent in telling us that the Admirals are the pinnacle of power along with the Yonkou

When? As far as I know, the only direct confrontation between a Yonkou and an Admiral was Akainu getting slapped by a near-death, battle-worn and virtually haki-less Whitebeard?

The pinnacle of power is Roger, Prime Garp, Prime Whitebeard and by inference Xebec. I think a lot of people informally rate this as 'Pirate-king' level. They are in a league above Admirals.

 

[catagon87]

When? As far as I know, the only direct confrontation between a Yonkou and an Admiral was Akainu getting slapped by a near-death, battle-worn and virtually haki-less Whitebeard?

Way to cherry-pick their confrontation. Akainu walked away from Whitebeard. Whitebeard got half of his face blasted off by Akainu.

There's plenty of evidence to an Admiral's strength.

• Blackbeard fled with his entire crew when Akainu showed up
• Blackbeard's crew was held off by Sengoku and Garp
• None of the admirals were really harmed by Whitebeard beyond some bruises.
• Kizaru sparred with the Dark King, Rayleigh
• Akainu one-shotting Ace by impaling him with a single blow

Akainu impaled Ace in a single blow, killing him.

I think the biggest tell to Akainu's strength is the fact that he faced down the entirety of the WB Pirates with no fear, and walked away from it. I have my doubts that current Luffy could even do anything similar to that.

 

[Core D. Roy]

I think Fujitora and Ryokugyu were never supposed to be on par with Kizaru and the others

They have been consistently portrayed as being not much stronger than a commander

Their greatest feat is Ryokugyu overpowering Yamato

FEATS FEATS FEATS

Fujitora was there to be as neutral a party as he possibly could. At no point was he fighting with any killing intent, if anything he was there to equalize things between the liberating pirates and the dictator pirates.

Likewise, it seems like Ryokugyu was in Wano solely to test their defenses. Yeah he loudly claimed he had killing intent, but the second he realized a fresh Red Hair Pirates crew had snuck up on him he nope'd out- like any sane person would and has.

We haven't seen the old Admirals fight the protagonists post-TS. Your opinion is skewed by the fact that Aokiji was encountered at Long Ring Long Land, Kizaru at Sabaody. Swap out the old Admirals and new in those situations, and it's likely pretty much the same outcome either way.

 

[catagon87]

FEATS FEATS FEATS

Fujitora was there to be as neutral a party as he possibly could. At no point was he fighting with any killing intent, if anything he was there to equalize things between the liberating pirates and the dictator pirates.

Likewise, it seems like Ryokugyu was in Wano solely to test their defenses. Yeah he loudly claimed he had killing intent, but the second he realized a fresh Red Hair Pirates crew had snuck up on him he nope'd out- like any sane person would and has.

We haven't seen the old Admirals fight the protagonists post-TS. Your opinion is skewed by the fact that Aokiji was encountered at Long Ring Long Land, Kizaru at Sabaody. Swap out the old Admirals and new in those situations, and it's likely pretty much the same outcome either way.

Yeah, I never once got the idea that Fuji was going all out on Dressrosa. I actually got more of a vibe that he was more of a "break glass in case of emergency element." Like I doubt he'd of let a whole country die to prove a point, and I do think he could have killed Doflamingo in a battle.

Ryokugyu held down the Akazaya 9 pretty effortlessly, who lasted a not-insignificant amount of time against Kaido. Seems like he can power up as he takes out his enemies, too. Not sure how the nourishment works, but it's definitely not good. It reminds me of Crocodile's drain of Luffy, except Ryokugyu likely gains strength from it.

 

[HereNThere]

When? As far as I know, the only direct confrontation between a Yonkou and an Admiral was Akainu getting slapped by a near-death, battle-worn and virtually haki-less Whitebeard?

The pinnacle of power is Roger, Prime Garp, Prime Whitebeard and by inference Xebec. I think a lot of people informally rate this as 'Pirate-king' level. They are in a league above Admirals.

When the two were completely focused on one another, neither held the advantage. Akainu even parried WB's bisento with a kick and managed to hold it before they went on to have a small back and forth. When WB got sick, Akainu took advantage of that situation. The next time they met, it was WB getting his hits in return as Akainu had his back turned. Both only got their licks in when guards were dropped.

When I say pinnacle, I mean the metaphorical summit that Ace spoke of back in the day. Those at the top of the heap like the Yonkou, Admirals, Mihawk, and a few other legends.

As far as when he's sprinkled it throughout the series through the words of various characters:

Spoiler: Chin Jao

Chin Jao notes that both Admirals and the Yonkou are nigh impossible obstacles to overcome and you need to do both to surpass Roger. *Stole this grab from reddit.

Spoiler: Luffy

Luffy reiterates this later in the arc. *Stole this grab from reddit as well.

Spoiler: Mother Caramel

Mother Caramel had an eye for talent and pegged Big Mom's true potential as Admiral worthy well before the concept of Yonkou even existed.

Spoiler: Garp

During the Reverie, Garp implied that the only ones capable of stopping Big Mom and Kaido were at the Reverie. The only ones he could've been speaking of were the Admirals or CP0, likely the former as I doubt a retiree such as him would be that privy to CP0's doings.

Spoiler: Roger

Then we have Roger requesting two individuals who we know were Admiral level at that point in time as he knows they are more of a threat to him.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, I never once got the idea that Fuji was going all out on Dressrosa. I actually got more of a vibe that he was more of a "break glass in case of emergency element." Like I doubt he'd of let a whole country die to prove a point, and I do think he could have killed Doflamingo in a battle.

Ryokugyu held down the Akazaya 9 pretty effortlessly, who lasted a not-insignificant amount of time against Kaido. Seems like he can power up as he takes out his enemies, too. Not sure how the nourishment works, but it's definitely not good. It reminds me of Crocodile's drain of Luffy, except Ryokugyu likely gains strength from it.

He wouldn't let a country die to prove a point but he would let it be compressed and cut by a giant wire cage slowly converging on doflamingo's position. While I am sure that's the vibe was going for in the arc I do feel at some point isho messed up. You'd think the birdcage would be the point at which you obliterate the glass and the wall behind it with a meteor to put an end to the shit.

I still feel oda did the scabbards dirty. Almost any of them should be able to cut through a mountain. Welp, raizo, kinemon and kiku seem a bit behind the curve but at least denjiro and kawamatsu should. Even inu and neku should manage (though they probably hit at jack's level only in sulong form). That said, aramaki's fruit seems unniquely tricky even among logia. I still think it's got a fair amount of vulnerabilities but it's probably almost infinitely versatile. As you mention the nourishment bit probably means aramaki can replenish his strength as he fights. He can basically respawn from individual plants... Given that he is composed of plants its conceivable he can use his fruit to heal his wounds. Essentially combining his capacity to nourish himself from the environment with actual healing (though there's no scenario where he survives a headshot IMO, he still has a human body) and intangibility.

 

[grey matter]

still feel oda did the scabbards dirty. Almost any of them should be able to cut through a mountain. Welp, raizo, kinemon and kiku seem a bit behind the curve but at least denjiro and kawamatsu should. Even inu and neku should manage (though they probably hit at jack's level only in sulong form). That said, aramaki's fruit seems unniquely tricky even among logia. I still think it's got a fair amount of vulnerabilities but it's probably almost infinitely versatile. As you mention the nourishment bit probably means aramaki can replenish his strength as he fights. He can basically respawn from individual plants... Given that he is composed of plants its conceivable he can use his fruit to heal his wounds. Essentially combining his capacity to nourish himself from the environment with actual healing (though there's no scenario where he survives a headshot IMO, he still has a human body) and intangibility.

It's different cause what the DF user makes depend on the level of the user himself. Stronger user makes stronger stuff. Plus, haki is also involved.

Just because Dresrossa Zoro cut a mountain from Pica, doesn't mean he can cut an equivalent area of plant from Greenbull.
Cause Greenbull >>> Dresrossa Zoro. In both pure stats and haki.

Also, Base Cat and Dog are themselves Jack tier. You don't fight someone for 12 hours straight without being relative to them. What Jack had over them was stamina feat.
Sulong Cat/Dog >> Jack

 

[kkck]

It's different cause what the DF user makes depend on the level of the user himself. Stronger user makes stronger stuff. Plus, haki is also involved.

Just because Dresrossa Zoro cut a mountain from Pica, doesn't mean he can cut an equivalent area of plant from Greenbull.
Cause Greenbull >>> Dresrossa Zoro. In both pure stats and haki.

Also, Base Cat and Dog are themselves Jack tier. You don't fight someone for 12 hours straight without being relative to them. What Jack had over them was stamina feat.
Sulong Cat/Dog >> Jack

Welp, it should mean they have the capacity to cut roughly equivalent areas in general. And while it is true that this doesn't mean they specifically can cut anything aramaki related we didn't see them throwing attacks which presumably would cut a mountain. haki in this... forest gundam type situation is unclear as well. We can't really tell what is or isn't covered in haki though I am inclined to assume that not everything at all times is covered in haki. For efficiency's sake.

That's not how the battle at zou presumably played out. The mink had two armies which alternated with one another. Each one fought for 12 hours straight and then swapped with the other to take its turn to rest. Add to that the mink having very strong combatants outside of inu and neku. We know their top officers are pretty damn competent. Pedro was worth 400 mil and shishilian seems to be about as good at least. Jack went at it with very few headliners iirc and just random militias with some smile users. To me that points towards jack having a definitive edge over inu or neko individually in their base forms. Sulong levels the field but the edge it gives them is probably not gigantic.

 

[catagon87]

He wouldn't let a country die to prove a point but he would let it be compressed and cut by a giant wire cage slowly converging on doflamingo's position. While I am sure that's the vibe was going for in the arc I do feel at some point isho messed up. You'd think the birdcage would be the point at which you obliterate the glass and the wall behind it with a meteor to put an end to the shit.

I think the point of him letting Bird Cage cause so much damage was so that he had something to show the world. It's shitty, but arresting Doflamingo and having the country appear 100% stable and untouched would be a bit weird. Also, IIRC he did try to stop Bird Cage with a meteor, and the Bird Cage just sliced the meteor up and it caused more collateral damage. I believe the only way to take down Bird Cage was to defeat Doflamingo.

I still feel oda did the scabbards dirty. Almost any of them should be able to cut through a mountain. Welp, raizo, kinemon and kiku seem a bit behind the curve but at least denjiro and kawamatsu should. Even inu and neku should manage (though they probably hit at jack's level only in sulong form). That said, aramaki's fruit seems unniquely tricky even among logia. I still think it's got a fair amount of vulnerabilities but it's probably almost infinitely versatile. As you mention the nourishment bit probably means aramaki can replenish his strength as he fights. He can basically respawn from individual plants... Given that he is composed of plants its conceivable he can use his fruit to heal his wounds. Essentially combining his capacity to nourish himself from the environment with actual healing (though there's no scenario where he survives a headshot IMO, he still has a human body) and intangibility.

Ryokugyu's logia is insane, IMO. I would bet its power is amplified in a forest setting.

I'm curious how Luffy's "toon world" would do against someone like Ryokugyu. I still don't fully understand how it helped so much against Kaido (I don't get how making Kaido rubbery was helpful). It gave him a lot of flexibility (no pun intended) in his fighting style, but at the end of the day he still has to rely on his brute strength.

 

[kkck]

I think the point of him letting Bird Cage cause so much damage was so that he had something to show the world. It's shitty, but arresting Doflamingo and having the country appear 100% stable and untouched would be a bit weird. Also, IIRC he did try to stop Bird Cage with a meteor, and the Bird Cage just sliced the meteor up and it caused more collateral damage. I believe the only way to take down Bird Cage was to defeat Doflamingo.



Ryokugyu's logia is insane, IMO. I would bet its power is amplified in a forest setting.

I'm curious how Luffy's "toon world" would do against someone like Ryokugyu. I still don't fully understand how it helped so much against Kaido (I don't get how making Kaido rubbery was helpful). It gave him a lot of flexibility (no pun intended) in his fighting style, but at the end of the day he still has to rely on his brute strength.

That's what I mean with issho messing up. The birdcage was a threat even to him. That's the glass breaking moment but he was in a situation where he couldn't just get to doflamingo and put and end to everything. And that because he didn't take a stand sooner.

He seems to be able to instantly create actual forests though. His walk through wano has done basically that. In that sense I don't think the presence or absence of a forest matters to him even if they boost him. Worst case scenario he can instantly create a favorable environment. Perhaps the more important factor here would be the quality of the environment around him. As in, better soil around helps produce better plants.... though with his ability he probably could even instantly fix the quality of the soul as well (which might be relevant to the future of wano considering orochi went out of his way to pollute it). So far speculation is that aramai is a logia however the implications of his fruit are so vast it might defy categorization... or maybe even warrant its own category. The sole "plant system" fruit...

Probably pretty well? it's inherently disruptive. I am not sure if luffy actually turned kaido into rubber. Luffy did more than that considering his arms came out of kaido's eyes without them bursting into pure gore. So this was just more ways to conventionally punch kaido rather than turn his insides into paste. IMO the biggest advantage of his awakening remains that luffy doesn't need haki to sustain the form. He trades haki overconsumption for the stamina drain associated with awakenings. Thus he can simply last longer in combat while still having access to every single skill his gears afford him and then some.

That said, perhaps going forward luffy won't need to use as much haki to sustain his gears. The implication of snakeman and boundman is that those are essentially luffy's varied zoan forms. If that's the case he eventually shouldn't require haki to just stay in those forms.

 

[Lord fifth]

Isho didn't mess upp, if people started to die in droves he would probably step in, with the pirates and himself slowing down the birdcage that wasn't needed.

This isn't subtext, Riku outright states that Fuji didn't go against doflamingo on purpose this after the battle is over.


And if that isn't enough Fuji straight nukes a mountain then lifts all the rouble in dressrosa with causally ease to emphasize he was holding back.

The story is smacking you over the head that fuji was holding back to achieve a purpose, yes he was willing to risk it and his risk paid off with minimal loss of civilians(if at all)


The admirals don't appear strong anymore for a simple reason the straw hats aren't weak anymore, if akainu showed up and tried to go up v all the strawhats, he would get clapped.


And greenbull wasnt restraining Yamato Yamato was doing nothing because momo told her to.

 

[kkck]

Isho didn't mess upp, if people started to die in droves he would probably step in, with the pirates and himself slowing down the birdcage that wasn't needed.

This isn't subtext, Riku outright states that Fuji didn't go against doflamingo on purpose this after the battle is over.


And if that isn't enough Fuji straight nukes a mountain then lifts all the rouble in dressrosa with causally ease to emphasize he was holding back.

The story is smacking you over the head that fuji was holding back to achieve a purpose, yes he was willing to risk it and his risk paid off with minimal loss of civilians(if at all)


The admirals don't appear strong anymore for a simple reason the straw hats aren't weak anymore, if akainu showed up and tried to go up v all the strawhats, he would get clapped.


And greenbull wasnt restraining Yamato Yamato was doing nothing because momo told her to.

But... issho couldn't possibly have anticipated the birdcage. And as far as we know it was impossible for him to destroy it. So sure, he left this up to the strawhats to favor his own agenda but when the birdcage became active he simply had no control, he stopped being in a position where he could swoop in and save the day. And the issue here is not that he was willing to take a personal risk the issue is that his gamble put others at incalculable risk. Issho took a calculated risk with the strawhats and it turned out he was buggy level at math.

I don't think anyone is saying the admirals don't appear strong. If anything the debate is whether they are actually capable of going toe to toe with yonko or not.

 

[Lord fifth]

But... issho couldn't possibly have anticipated the birdcage. And as far as we know it was impossible for him to destroy it. So sure, he left this up to the strawhats to favor his own agenda but when the birdcage became active he simply had no control, he stopped being in a position where he could swoop in and save the day. And the issue here is not that he was willing to take a personal risk the issue is that his gamble put others at incalculable risk. Issho took a calculated risk with the strawhats and it turned out he was buggy level at math.

I don't think anyone is saying the admirals don't appear strong. If anything the debate is whether they are actually capable of going toe to toe with yonko or not.

????

All he needs to do is kill doflamingo if the bird cage starts killing people.


And for that he could just purple tiger him into a pretzel.


We don't know wether Fuji could destroy the bird cage or not(I say he can) but that question is not relevant to the risk he took, if the birdcage got bloody all he needs to do is go after doflamingo, and from what we have seen after the battle has ended he could have easily used purple tiger from a considerable distance


He did this while lifting all the rubble in dressrosa, Luffy survived because he is rubber if doflamingo got twisted like that it would be over.

 

[kkck]

????

All he needs to do is kill doflamingo if the bird cage starts killing people.


And for that he could just purple tiger him into a pretzel.


We don't know wether Fuji could destroy the bird cage or not(I say he can) but that question is not relevant to the risk he took, if the birdcage got bloody all he needs to do is go after doflamingo, and from what we have seen after the battle has ended he could have easily used purple tiger from a considerable distance


He did this while lifting all the rubble in dressrosa, Luffy survived because he is rubber if doflamingo got twisted like that it would be over.

Except, you know, he didn't. And there's no reason to think that when the birdcage became a thing he could have just gone and defeat doflamingo. At that point his actual life was in luffy's hands. And it's extremely likely that nothing in fujitora's arsenal would have done anything to the birdcage. Fujitora has been presented as a fundamentally kind character, he'd be an absolute piece of trash if he gambled with the lives of people at dressrosa like that.

Lol, the OP anime. Not a valid source of anything. Not that it's relevant to this. I don't recall luffy getting twisted in the manga.

 

[HereNThere]

Fujitora has been presented as a fundamentally kind character, he'd be an absolute piece of trash if he gambled with the lives of people at dressrosa like that.

I mean, that's exactly what he did, lol. He even said as much. He wanted Luffy and Dressrosa to solve the issue themselves to basically undermine the WG and the Shichibukai system. The King of Dressrosa even implied that Fujitora set everything up to go that way.

Fujitora would likely stomp Doflamingo if the two were to go at it.

Birdcage (and Parasite) is another story due to plot shenanigans. The way it was portrayed, it would've given Wapolmetal a run for it's money in the durability department.