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Total vindication, a total and complete exoneration reaffirming our president and his families pursuit of fair and legal following of processes in regards to election and more.

Pelosi and others were right, pursuing impeachment would have been dumb and unfounded.
 

gnut

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Im not disappointed...just worried about his judge of character then.
Know what they say....birds of a feather flock together.
Says alot when alot of your underlings are doing/about to do prison terms.
:cookiehand
 

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It was an unpresidented and unmitigated witch hunt of the highest order. There is nothing to read into with the people in the Trump Campaign.
 

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How can it be a witch hunt if trump wasn't found colluding? A witch hunt by definition would find guilty people regardless of evidence. As far as we know what is going here is that the investigation was carried out correctly as far as what muller chose to investigate, in this case he apparently focused solely on whether the campaign colluded and if there was anything else he presumably passed it to other agencies, and ultimately found no evidence of collusion. While also not getting into whether trump obstructed justice (I read the summary but found this framing weird). This is literally not a witch-hunt, this is a by the books investigation.
 
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gnut

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It was an unpresidented and unmitigated witch hunt of the highest order. There is nothing to read into with the people in the Trump Campaign.
Really?
Say all my buddies are convicted of premeditated murder and im not.
Does that put a little doubt on my character....in my eyes it does?

Regardless of these findings...the guy has/had some knowledge of the crookedness in his camp.
 

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The issue is more complex than just presence of firearms. There's little correlation between violent crime and the presence of firearms. The best preditor for violent crime is actually relative economic disparity and that, contrary to what some utopians anti-capitalists believe, is not a simple problem even in the best of economies.
A great way to predict gun violence is by checking people's history. More often than not, men who shoot others or commit mass shootings usually have a history of domestic violence or violence of some sort. Stricter gun control laws can work, despite what pro-gun whackos claim. I've read stats on how states with lax gun laws saw more gun violence than states with strict gun laws. it's not just economic disparity.
 

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Really?
Say all my buddies are convicted of premeditated murder and im not.
Does that put a little doubt on my character....in my eyes it does?

Regardless of these findings...the guy has/had some knowledge of the crookedness in his camp.
I mean you dont know what goes on in your friends and your family behind closed doors.
 

gnut

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Mafia dons or cartel leaders....sounds good for a future nominee xD
 

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A great way to predict gun violence is by checking people's history. More often than not, men who shoot others or commit mass shootings usually have a history of domestic violence or violence of some sort. Stricter gun control laws can work, despite what pro-gun whackos claim. I've read stats on how states with lax gun laws saw more gun violence than states with strict gun laws. it's not just economic disparity.
I've looked at plenty of statistics, worldwide statistics on guns per capita and rates of violent crime in notable detail; even wrote a paper on it. There is little correlation between presence (which also means ease of access) and violent crime. The ginni coefficient, relative economic variance in an area, on the other hand heavily correlates with violent crime and other crimes to varying, notable degrees. As far as I know, there is no better method to predicting an area's violent crime rate than that, but I digress.

Checking criminal history is a part of the background check process and the most of the guns being used in these crimes are "legally" obtained. Sure, we could definitely use some adjustments to our gun laws, but it doesn't make sense to pile on more steps to the process if we still haven't been able to effectively enforce and go through the ones we have now. I think we have real efficiency problem with a lot of government services and regulations.

So, I believe focusing on that would be a better issue to try to tackle. Alternatively, we need to put more focus on keeping people well enough so that fewer feel like they should resort to violent crime.
 

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Even after all the reports, investigations, and publicity, nothing has come of them. It has already been confirmed that there's 0 new indictments in this most recent report.
Nothing has come of them? Maybe as it pertains to Trump personally. It's just a bunch of people involved in his campaign or those that worked for him involved in criminal behavior. We don't really know until the public gets the full report, but just because Trump wasn't indicted personally doesn't mean he or his campaign fully exonerated. The DOJ has made a point to say that they avoid giving out information unless charges are filed. There's still something like a dozen investigations going on as it pertains to this.

On the other hand, Trump has pushed the UN to actually keep up there commits on defense spending and left the agreement with Russia on intermediate range ballistic missiles, missiles that pose a threat primarily to the US' allies, not even the US itself. However, when he does this, he gets accused of trying to stoke a war. As I said before, I do not agree with every decision or action Trump has had or taken regarding those countries, but to say that he, or at the very least his administration is doing nothing about the threat these countries pose to the US and our allies is inaccurate.
Why would he tear up that agreement with Russia though? In general, people criticize him for praising adversarial countries and being mostly critical of our allies. Praising Putin and refusing any sort of public admonishment towards them isn't seen as some bold foreign policy strategy on his part. It makes him look compromised.

The issue is more complex than just presence of firearms. There's little correlation between violent crime and the presence of firearms. The best preditor for violent crime is actually relative economic disparity and that, contrary to what some utopians anti-capitalists believe, is not a simple problem even in the best of economies. So, either more focus goes to minimizing the gap or dealing with the fact that, in many of these situations, the shooter could only do what they did because the systems currently in place failed to do its job on a ridiculous number of occasions. It doesn't really make much sense to give the government more control in our society when it's already failing spectacularly in the same areas it wants more responsibility. The method in which we deal with such reports and mental health needs more ironing out before try to rip apart the principles the US was built upon. If you do not value what you have, then you will lose it and, if you're losing in the US, you have quite a lot to lose. People aren't scrambling over here from all around the world because our country is the worst of the worst. I just hope it doesn't take something catastrophic, far worse than any terrorist attack, for Americans to realize that again. In short, we need to put more effort into fixing our systems as opposed to tearing it down.
Easy access to weapons and ammo that are much more lethal than the most basic of firearms is also a factor. Not sure how it applies to the Christchurch shooting since NZ laws aren't the same here. However, there is some cognitive dissonance going on when guns are easier to obtain in some places than a driver's license is. Or that there's no federal database for firearms either. It's just insanity to me.

And @xi0 , no, I was being genuine there. Many people approach conversations with the usually unconscious goal of forcing their opinion on someone else or getting them to just concede. Having some back and forth is great, but it can't be with the intent to "win" and the other people "lose." Either both people gain insight and get better or both peopls lose in the long-term. I try to keep that in mind when I enter discussions like this and I hope that came across in the reply, but I'm not perfect.
While I mostly agree, the problem with this is the assumption that any participant in coversation/debate is there in good faith. I guess that could be determined by unconscious factors too though.
 

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Nothing has come of them? Maybe as it pertains to Trump personally. It's just a bunch of people involved in his campaign or those that worked for him involved in criminal behavior. We don't really know until the public gets the full report, but just because Trump wasn't indicted personally doesn't mean he or his campaign fully exonerated. The DOJ has made a point to say that they avoid giving out information unless charges are filed. There's still something like a dozen investigations going on as it pertains to this.

Excerpt from NBC's coverage of the report:
On coordination with the Russians, special counsel Robert Mueller was clear, according to the attorney general's letter to Congress Sunday: He did not find "that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election."
Still, a few people in his camp did talk with Russians and the media made sure we heard about it. When it got mainstream attention, the focal person stated the on paper reason for the meet, usually it was one meeting of many with many countries, and then they reaigned or removed themselves before much else happened. It doesn't exactly scream "I'm innocent," but at the time, people weren't exactly screaming "your innocent and an alright chap" at him either. My guess would be it was just people weighing their options; take the badge of traitor and colluder for an indeterminate amount of time, negatively inpacting the rest of their careers, or resign or recuse themself like, seemingly, the entire world outside of their offices wants.

Why would he tear up that agreement with Russia though? In general, people criticize him for praising adversarial countries and being mostly critical of our allies. Praising Putin and refusing any sort of public admonishment towards them isn't seen as some bold foreign policy strate
I'm no fan of Trump's sweet talk to these countries, but I think it's just that; sweet talk. He seems to be trying to deal with these countries the way he would other businesses. Again, I can't say I completely agree with that approach, however, that's how it seems to me.

As for the abandonment of the agreement, Russia was blatantly disregarding it and has been producing intermediate range missiles for a while now. Like you said, there has to be some good faith in order for two or more parties to come together effectively. However, Russia didn't act in good faith, even put out a 3D simulation of a missile they were planning to develop hitting the US. So, Trump pulled the US out the deal.

Easy access to weapons and ammo that are much more lethal than the most basic of firearms is also a factor. Not sure how it applies to the Christchurch shooting since NZ laws aren't the same here. However, there is some cognitive dissonance going on when guns are easier to obtain in some places than a driver's license is. Or that there's no federal database for firearms either. It's just insanity to me.
A federal database would help when it comes to keeping an eye on things to make sure there's no problem characters in the mix. However, the government would actually need to do that on a consistent basis, not just say it would. Many of these mass shooters are getting to the point they got to that drove them to shoot people up, in part, because the government already failed to perform the checks and investigations into problem characters. Now that I think about it, it's not all that different from one of the many problems with ICE right now: They lack the funding and shrewdness to consistently enforce immigration laws, even when it comes to multiple offense violent criminals. They and other government organizations instead take shortsighted, "one-time" actions like deportation or, back to utilizing the firearm database, taking guns from the people through broad, overreaching policies. This is a legitimate concern and its happened before, in recent history too. Still, if we can improve the effective enforcement of the laws we have now, then I think we would be in a better place to talk about a database for firearms. Until then, there's little reason the federal government should have one, unless you actually do believe the government should go door to door taking people's weapons away or you think the database would actually help with enforcement (a possibility albeit unlikely in my estimation).

I'm curious though: What firearms do you believe are acceptably basic enough for the general public to have access to, after a proper background check process, presumably.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Geez, these posts always end up longer than I expect them to be
 

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How can it be a witch hunt if trump wasn't found colluding? A witch hunt by definition would find guilty people regardless of evidence. As far as we know what is going here is that the investigation was carried out correctly as far as what muller chose to investigate, in this case he apparently focused solely on whether the campaign colluded and if there was anything else he presumably passed it to other agencies, and ultimately found no evidence of collusion. While also not getting into whether trump obstructed justice (I read the summary but found this framing weird). This is literally not a witch-hunt, this is a by the books investigation.
Agreed. Coming from someone who studied law, Mueller did what he could within his mandate and powers. And that should be commended. Personally, I'd say Mueller came out of this looking unscathed, with nary a speck of dirt on him. Basically, he played the long game here. He'd investigated what needed to be investigated, and left more than enough trails of breadcrumbs for everyone to follow up on whatever he found were not within his mandate. I know both sides wanted some kind of dramatic bombshell out of this, but given how low-key the guy is, that's probably not his style.

Barr's decision to not pursue the investigation any further is curious, but it's still well within the realm of rationality, I guess. Given what we know so far, there may or may not be enough substantial evidence to pursue the case. Even if there were, it would take someone to make a really convincing legal argument to go further, but run the risk of losing the case judging by what we have.
 

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Agreed. Coming from someone who studied law, Mueller did what he could within his mandate and powers. And that should be commended. Personally, I'd say Mueller came out of this looking unscathed, with nary a speck of dirt on him. Basically, he played the long game here. He'd investigated what needed to be investigated, and left more than enough trails of breadcrumbs for everyone to follow up on whatever he found were not within his mandate. I know both sides wanted some kind of dramatic bombshell out of this, but given how low-key the guy is, that's probably not his style.

Barr's decision to not pursue the investigation any further is curious, but it's still well within the realm of rationality, I guess. Given what we know so far, there may or may not be enough substantial evidence to pursue the case. Even if there were, it would take someone to make a really convincing legal argument to go further, but run the risk of losing the case judging by what we have.
What I wonder is if mueller should have pursued those breadcrumbs himself tbh. From a legal point of view my understanding is that mueller had freedom to pretty much choose which leads to pursue himself and which ones to pass on to other agencies so on that end there are no ethical issues either way. But if he finds a crime pertaining people around the trump campaign then isn't it better for him to pursue them himself rather than pass them on? Mueller is ultimately someone both parties agreed on was competent and fair enough to investigate trump's campaign. I am not sure other agencies would have such unique position to investigate whatever leads mueller might or not have passed on. On the other hand if Mueller did pass on some stuff perhaps it being directed to conventional agencies and whatnot is for the best. Just normal investigations being carried out by the people they should be handled by and none of the media circus around investigations which started back when comey made hillary's investigation's public.

As far as I can tell what Barr had a say on whether to pursue or not is the obstruction of justice bit. Which.... of course barr won't pursue and democrats don't have the balls to push for. otherwise they would have been clamoring for someone to look into this when trump said he fired comey for the russian investigation. And the whole roster of things trump has said that would appear to fall into this. Or am I missing something here?
 

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I think it really depends on what kind of person the prosecutor is, from a legal ideology standpoint. We all know that Mueller's legal background is that he's bred from a conservative school of legal thought, these types tend to be by-the-book when approaching cases as we're seeing here. There's certainly nothing stopping him from pursuing those breadcrumbs but I think he's just a really cautious person, so I can see why he stopped short of going after the rest of the leads. He may also think it's really not worth the hassle of going through a political circus if he were to do so.

But that said, don't be surprised if it's revealed that he'd been nudging the other agencies into the directions they need to go to.
 

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I think it really depends on what kind of person the prosecutor is, from a legal ideology standpoint. We all know that Mueller's legal background is that he's bred from a conservative school of legal thought, these types tend to be by-the-book when approaching cases as we're seeing here. There's certainly nothing stopping him from pursuing those breadcrumbs but I think he's just a really cautious person, so I can see why he stopped short of going after the rest of the leads. He may also think it's really not worth the hassle of going through a political circus if he were to do so.

But that said, don't be surprised if it's revealed that he'd been nudging the other agencies into the directions they need to go to.
I really wouldn't be surprised. Looking back on the cohen hearing.... That looks like it was meant to put at least a bit of the stuff muller uncovered in his investigation in the public eye.... though I am not sure of how involved mueller would have been in this. I guess in the end perhaps its for the best that the media circus around muller is over and whatever follows, if anything follows, is handed through conventional means and the public finds out when it makes sense.
 

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Maybe it's just me, but this whole thing kinda reminds me of a Mafia Game: Trump survives the lynch twice and then gets confirmed townie the next day phase.

From here, he'll either be the star player or lead the lynch of a townie and die the next night phase. About a 50-50 chance at this point.
 

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Maybe it's just me, but this whole thing kinda reminds me of a Mafia Game: Trump survives the lynch twice and then gets confirmed townie the next day phase.

From here, he'll either be the star player or lead the lynch of a townie and die the next night phase. About a 50-50 chance at this point.
To be fair, trump being caught colluding with Russia was not in itself probable. The investigation was necessary because trump pretty much did everything he possibly could to make it appear as if he did something wrong in that regard. From trump saying russia should release democrat emails if they stole them to his dumbass kid going to that meeting with a russian agent to get dirt on hillary... To trump trump's business dealing with russian oligarchs... to the 30 something indictments and guilty pleas with people who lied to congress about their dealings with russia and financial crimes.

And then, trump's long term position regarding this will depend on whether anyone pursues, and finds, financial crimes. While trump is basically on the clear regarding his russia ties the fallout from whatever else muller could have uncovered and passed on could be yet to come. Considering cohen is going to prison for committing financial crimes under instructions from trump, it would be genuinely astonishing if nothing turns up in the future. Time will tell.
 

xi0

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I'm curious though: What firearms do you believe are acceptably basic enough for the general public to have access to, after a proper background check process, presumably.
There's some bumbled nomenclature when it comes to guns and what an "assault-type weapon" even is. A generic AR-15 itself isn't any more lethal than any other semi-automatic rifle firing the same cartridge. Looks really have nothing to do with lethality. It's when a weapon is modified legally or illegally, with stuff like bumper stocks or extended magazines where lethality goes up exponentially. Ammo type is also a factor too. Hollow point ammunition is designed to maim since it expands when it hits. There's also the fact that .223 Remington (5.56x45mm) rifle ammo has a tendency to "tumble"(it's not actually tumbling but that's neither here nor there) in the body.

So for me, perhaps the question isn't what is considered safe enough for civilians to own legally, but what does a civilian not need access to legally.

To be fair, trump being caught colluding with Russia was not in itself probable. The investigation was necessary because trump pretty much did everything he possibly could to make it appear as if he did something wrong in that regard. From trump saying russia should release democrat emails if they stole them to his dumbass kid going to that meeting with a russian agent to get dirt on hillary... To trump trump's business dealing with russian oligarchs... to the 30 something indictments and guilty pleas with people who lied to congress about their dealings with russia and financial crimes.
To me there was absolute willingness on his part. The meeting in Trump Tower is enough for me as well. Maybe there was no crime, but this administration has zero respect for the ethical norms. A willingness to work with a foreign adversary against fellow citizens means you're an unscrupulous piece of shit. Blaming it on ignorance changes nothing either, as it also means you're unfit to serve.
 

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To me there was absolute willingness on his part. The meeting in Trump Tower is enough for me as well. Maybe there was no crime, but this administration has zero respect for the ethical norms. A willingness to work with a foreign adversary against fellow citizens means you're an unscrupulous piece of shit. Blaming it on ignorance changes nothing either, as it also means you're unfit to serve.
Ah, absolutely. You don't do... literally any of the things trump has done over the years if you didn't attempt to collude at a minimum. Trump is a scumbag... Its not even ethical norms in government which he doesn't respect, its all forms of ethics. His businesses don't behave ethically, he has surrounded himself by enough scumbags that mueller managed to indict or get guilty pleas out of over 30 of them... Roger stone freaking prided himself on playing dirty. I don't even know how far gone you have to be to pride yourself on your scumbagery... I remember during the trump campaign where he told his supporters something along the lines of him at some point being one of the elites that was in charge. As in a donor who gave politicians money to get what he wanted.. How do you even unwrap that?
 
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