American Politics

[hokageji]

From what I've read so far what governments around the world are accusing china of is basically withholding information about the virus so that they could hoard medical supplies to deal with it. I am not sure if any information around suggests china was outright indifferent to the virus spreading. They just hid information presumably to protect their businesses and stockpile supplies they were going to need.

Well, they didn't acknowledge the pandemic for a few weeks didnt they? Delaying announcing the outbreakitself has made the issue much worse. They're also noted on silencing whistleblowers or anyone speaking against it during that period. If the outbreak had been acknowledged and announced at the correct time, the virus could've been curtailed by 95% apparently as per some article ....I am not confident on those numbers but we can acknowledge that the world would've taken it seriously a lot sooner.... cant say the same about American government though, who denied it initially...

Mike Pompeo, the secretary of state and the US defence secretary are still claiming that China is witholding information.

 

[xi0]

Now there's stories about it originating in France or the US but they seem to come from Chinese outlets so it's tough to parse out information that seems credible from propaganda.

--- Double Post Merged, May 11, 2020, Original Post Date: May 11, 2020 ---

I am not gonna deny that Trump is a racist, he's done enough to prove that itself. But its not only him who's talking about calling this the "wuhan virus" or the "chinese flu". Trump is doing it ignoring the racial repercussions, and if you mean that, i agree with you, my point is the political aspect which is an important one, which often gets buried behind a discussion like that.

I was never arguing against calling it Wuhan virus on the basis of that being racist. I'm in the camp that there's no point to rushing to name it like that if 90% of the world is already calling it COVID-19, but I don't think that way on the basis of it being racist or insensitive. Like I said before, even the Chinese have called it the Wuhan virus.

I think Trump called it the "Chinese virus" to distract from his own culpability, not so his idiot supports go around bashing Asian people or something. But he has a track record of not giving a fuck about the repercussions for what he says either, so is it really that much better?

 

[kkck]

I think Trump called it the "Chinese virus" to distract from his own culpability, not so his idiot supports go around bashing Asian people or something. But he has a track record of not giving a fuck about the repercussions for what he says either, so is it really that much better?

That is pretty much the gist of it. My issue here is that even calling this racist pretty much plays into trump's hands as well. Because referring to it as china or wuhan virus simply isn't racist... So you have trumpy doing the china virus thing to distract from his own failures while media babies play themselves into calling him a racist which in turn distracts from the simple reality that trump is pathetic.

 

[hokageji]

I think Trump called it the "Chinese virus" to distract from his own culpability, not so his idiot supports go around bashing Asian people or something. But he has a track record of not giving a fuck about the repercussions for what he says either, so is it really that much better?

I should've mentioned that my opinions are influenced by consuming media from 2 countries, USA and India, where i am originally from. Considering that this is a thread only for american politics, i should've treated it as such and focused the discussion on Trump's comment which was the original discussion....
I think we agree for most of it in that case.

 

[M3J]

India tends to lie about the news and are pretty biased, so I dunno. But the cases (and death?) in coronavirus shot up sharply in the last few days, so yeah.

If the Chinese media is the only one blaming France or USA, then it's most likely BS unless they have proof. I mean, from all that we know, USA didn't have a case until weeks after CHina, no?

 

[hokageji]

India tends to lie about the news and are pretty biased, so I dunno. But the cases (and death?) in coronavirus shot up sharply in the last few days, so yeah.

If the Chinese media is the only one blaming France or USA, then it's most likely BS unless they have proof. I mean, from all that we know, USA didn't have a case until weeks after CHina, no?

Biased, yes.. 100%... Lies, it depends. I dont consume the opinion, just the news and that from subscription based media which are not affliated with political parties... Even there, biases will be there, but atleast the news in uninfluenced by political agendas...

I think for countries like India, the number of tests are very small... thus, the total cases were low.. but eventually the math catches up which is why you see the tracejtory as it is now....

I think USA didn't have a case till last week of Jan, so about a month roughly from China... China blaming USA is just a distraction from the fact that they could be held responsible, as per media reports.

Anyways, its easy to blame China when the real fact is the entire world was caught napping. Hopefully going forward, these virus threats are treated as a global threat and all nations act in a unified way to achieve these goals. The fact is human encroachment into the wild will always keep the potential of the next big threat alive and the best we can do is be prepared to curb the spread. There are lessons to be learned from Korea, Singapore, and specially Taiwan. Lets hope the world combats this together in the future..

 

[M3J]

Yep, and I think cases overall are much higher than reported, especially after a leader in an African country (I could be remembering wrong) said the cases were none because they didn't test.

Agreed, the entire world could have handled it better. China is at fault, yeah, but despite warnings, most people did not quarantine or distance themselves.

 

[kkck]

Anyways, its easy to blame China when the real fact is the entire world was caught napping. Hopefully going forward, these virus threats are treated as a global threat and all nations act in a unified way to achieve these goals. The fact is human encroachment into the wild will always keep the potential of the next big threat alive and the best we can do is be prepared to curb the spread. There are lessons to be learned from Korea, Singapore, and specially Taiwan. Lets hope the world combats this together in the future..

That's pretty much the gist of it.... regardless of looks, we live in a world where someone on the globe's other side is about as much your neighbor as... your neighbor. Based on current reports from intelligence agencies, china kept quiet about the virus in order to be able to gather medical supplies for the imminent crisis. But... this in turn was a short sighted approach because the virus spread anyways and the global repercussions will continue to hurt them. Covid19 is a wakeup call... we need global, timely and unified responses to threats such as these. Which means countries like china not keeping stuff to themselves and allowing experts from all over the world to oversee the situation. To add to this, we are somewhat lucky that this happened in china and not... say, most other countries even in spite of all their hurtful secrecy. China is still a world power with access to money and technology... Imagine if this had happened in some other third world country which didn't have all the resources available to china. It'd take longer for the country to notice, it'd take longer for the world to notice..

 

[hokageji]

To add to this, we are somewhat lucky that this happened in china and not... say, most other countries even in spite of all their hurtful secrecy. China is still a world power with access to money and technology... Imagine if this had happened in some other third world country which didn't have all the resources available to china. It'd take longer for the country to notice, it'd take longer for the world to notice..

Agreed, but on the other hand, one can make the argument that China's global influence and reach is one of the causes for the spread as well... In terms of trade, travel and tourism, China hasa the largest presence making number of potential connections way higher than others. A 3rd world country wouldn't have a carrier spread of the same level...

 

[kkck]

Agreed, but on the other hand, one can make the argument that China's global influence and reach is one of the causes for the spread as well... In terms of trade, travel and tourism, China hasa the largest presence making number of potential connections way higher than others. A 3rd world country wouldn't have a carrier spread of the same level...

I am not sure of how exactly you blame a country for people going there. I suppose you could argue China has greater responsibility than other countries to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen at the most...

And yeah, china has a ton of tourism and whatnot but in today's world.... what country doesn't have substantial amounts of it? The amount of places that you can't reach by airplane is minuscule at the most. Even if its just one guy with a new virus... once that person gets on a plane it can spread pretty quickly to pretty much anywhere regardless of its origin. Any international airport on the planet can spread a virus to pretty much anywhere near instantly... which is pretty much what happened.

 

[hokageji]

am not sure of how exactly you blame a country for people going there. I suppose you could argue China has greater responsibility than other countries to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen at the most...

I am not blaming China, dont know how you are getting that idea. China infact contributes to various country's economies and that's only a good thing. China has maximum tourists, maximum business ties and thus, maximum reach to the rest of the world. If you compare that to a developing nation, the numbers will show a stark contrast. So if the developing nation had the outbreak, they'd be affected worse for sure, but cannot say the spread would be the same.

nd yeah, china has a ton of tourism and whatnot but in today's world.... what country doesn't have substantial amounts of it? The amount of places that you can't reach by airplane is minuscule at the most. Even if its just one guy with a new virus... once that person gets on a plane it can spread pretty quickly to pretty much anywhere regardless of its origin. Any international airport on the planet can spread a virus to pretty much anywhere near instantly... which is pretty much what happened.

Again, comparing to developing nations alone... China has 130 million tourists a year, or something like that. If say for instance, an african nation has an outbreak, the other countries will apply travel restrictions even when the numbers are small... Why is this turning into a attack China or defend China argument? It simply is not. You are right, the spread from an airport will have similar effects, but how will the restrictions be applied?

 

[desin24]

I am not blaming China, dont know how you are getting that idea. China infact contributes to various country's economies and that's only a good thing. China has maximum tourists, maximum business ties and thus, maximum reach to the rest of the world. If you compare that to a developing nation, the numbers will show a stark contrast. So if the developing nation had the outbreak, they'd be affected worse for sure, but cannot say the spread would be the same.



Again, comparing to developing nations alone... China has 130 million tourists a year, or something like that. If say for instance, an african nation has an outbreak, the other countries will apply travel restrictions even when the numbers are small... Why is this turning into a attack China or defend China argument? It simply is not. You are right, the spread from an airport will have similar effects, but how will the restrictions be applied?

Well, China is the US's main competitor and most likely soon to be the world's number 1 and they will definitely not end up there by mistake but by taking careful actions and following a plan. Using the Corona situation in a way that does not only harm them but spreads out the harm and possibly benefits China because of their authoritarian government being better equipped to handle such a crisis.

Talking about Africa. China gives immense loans to various countries in Africa and of course for various reasons, "good and bad" (how do you judge that?). Collateral for these loans are usually key assets in those country's infrastructure. Mines, Ports, and similar objects are used as securities for these loans. Some call it debt-trap diplomacy for increasing political and economic influence over the world. When those countries can predictably not pay their debts (like right now with the corona crisis) these countries are in danger of losing key infrastructure. Often China "forgives" those debts but it means that the country's leader owes China even more (politically and economically). Not to forget China's 100 Year Plan to overtake the US as Number 1 in the world.

 

[Sanity Check]

I am not gonna deny that Trump is a racist, he's done enough to prove that itself.

Can I assume everyone posting in this thread believes Trump is a racist?

Even though Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Kanye West and others of minority ethnicity are personal friends of Trump.

And some of them have been friends of Trump for a very long time.

 

[hokageji]

Well, China is the US's main competitor and most likely soon to be the world's number 1 and they will definitely not end up there by mistake but by taking careful actions and following a plan. Using the Corona situation in a way that does not only harm them but spreads out the harm and possibly benefits China because of their authoritarian government being better equipped to handle such a crisis.

When it comes to economic dominance China is on another level. China's silk road project which Italy recently joined is one of many examples of China's dominance in trade. Chinese businesses have a significant presence in northern Italy which some connect as a point of contact and spread of the virus, but this is debatable and cannot be verified. Once they declared it as a pandemic, China did fairly well to contain the spread and get back into action as soon as possible. I work at an electronics manufacturing company, most often people are shocked that we're even existing in USA. I can tell you that we saw very little impact of the shutdown, at best 2 weeks alone, outside the week of Chinese new year.And in terms of quality as well, no one speaks of them being inferior anyone, they are right up there with the very best, barring a few niche fields. That's how much China is dominant.
Their government has a lot to do with it, and in many ways, Indian government and others want their nations to follow the same thing.

Talking about Africa. China gives immense loans to various countries in Africa and of course for various reasons, "good and bad" (how do you judge that?). Collateral for these loans are usually key assets in those country's infrastructure. Mines, Ports, and similar objects are used as securities for these loans. Some call it debt-trap diplomacy for increasing political and economic influence over the world. When those countries can predictably not pay their debts (like right now with the corona crisis) these countries are in danger of losing key infrastructure. Often China "forgives" those debts but it means that the country's leader owes China even more (politically and economically). Not to forget China's 100 Year Plan to overtake the US as Number 1 in the world.

You are right, its not possible to say economic investments is either a good, or a bad thing. Its a good thing for China, probably a great thing for Africa, as it brings lots of people out of poverty (assuming thats happening) but a bad thing for other nations. Its easy to view China as a loan shark but in reality, they are offering development to so many nations. And one can argue its way better than selling weapons, no?

Can I assume everyone posting in this thread believes Trump is a racist?

Even though Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Kanye West and others of minority ethnicity are personal friends of Trump.

And some of them have been friends of Trump for a very long time.

Friendship has nothing to do with it. And no-one is talking about Trump's personal circle. That seldom is proof for racism for high profile people. He is friends with people from the minority background, yes, but what do all these people really have in common at this stage from the ordinary people around the country?

He has repeatedly failed to acknowledge violence by white people as terrorism, and even called "bad people on both sides", do you still get to say, but he's friends with Shaq? When he called out for a ban on muslims, do you still get to say, but he's friends with Mike Tyson?

If i were to state 5 examples:
David Duke incident, when asked if he would condemn Duke, Trump refused to do that.
Muslim immigration ban
Mexican immigrants
The Charlottesville Rally, where he said "there's to blame both the sides" in a protest which contained neo-nazis and white nationalists...
Asking the congresswoman from "THE SQUAD" to go back to their country of origins..

I gave you 5 reasons as a president... if you go back to apprentice, miss universe or even the real-estate days, he's made enough botches to count as a racist.
Stating millionaires from minority background as friends doesn't nullify anything.

 

[xi0]

Even if you want to say that he isn't personally racist and has no racist biases regarding people of different backgrounds. He sure has no issue trafficking in questionable policy and appealing to a crowd that is unapologetically racist and bigoted. So what is the difference really?

--- Double Post Merged, May 13, 2020, Original Post Date: May 13, 2020 ---

And yeah "I have black friends" is kind of a joke argument

 

[M3J]

Can I assume everyone posting in this thread believes Trump is a racist?

Even though Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Kanye West and others of minority ethnicity are personal friends of Trump.

And some of them have been friends of Trump for a very long time.

Trump may not be a racist, but a majority of his supporters are, and he's run on racist and bigoted rhetoric and continues to do so. Major part of his popularity is because of this. Him having Black friends and people of color as his friends doesn't change anything, and Kanye is a horrible example given he actually said slavery was a choice. Those guys also have wealth and thus are more likely to support republicans.

To not understand the problem with Trump is to prove your privilege in some form.

 

[SnuggleCupcake]

Can I assume everyone posting in this thread believes Trump is a racist?

Even though Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Kanye West and others of minority ethnicity are personal friends of Trump.

And some of them have been friends of Trump for a very long time.

He announced his original campaign by ushering in a wave of xenophobia targeted specifically at Mexican people. Using specific phrases (like "illegal immigrant" over "undocumented immigrant"). His brand of racism is the same that you find in a lot of white homes. My little sister is proudly and openly a white supremacist but she will still make and be friends with people of color if you offer her marijuana. She'll even refer to them as "one of the good ones" or make statements like "I don't like black people, but you're an exception". What you have with Trump is much the same. Unfortunately people of color standing by Trump is not an indicator that he isn't racist, it's just an indicator that he makes exceptions for probably a number of reasons that don't actually matter.

It's a similar situation with him being homophobic. He can have a million homosexual friends, but having Pence - and openly and vehemently anti-LGBTQIA - man as his vice president signals that he's okay with also surrounding himself with homophobic people who will push homophobic agendas that the man himself will then proceed to support.

Which is homophobic. Because regardless of what you say, it's what you think and what you do that defines who you are and Trumps track record has so far been almost exclusively bigoted. He is racist. That much is indisputable given everything the man says, does, and thinks.

 

[Sanity Check]

I remember when CNN and mainstream news media pushed "mexicans and illegals are taking our jobs" narratives years back when Obama was still President. That was around the time Obama pushed for tougher border security and harsher immigration reforms.

Later CNN and big tech like google flipped a 180 and began pushing open borders, multiculturalism, diversity, rhetoric. This open borders movement was mirrored in europe and the EU.

BTW - both china and russia adopted 100% the complete opposite of open borders policies, without being labeled racist by the media. The way that Trump was for adopting an identical policy.

All of this happened within the last 10 years or so. But reading replies in threads like this one, you can tell. Very few are aware of what really happened. And even less are aware of what is happening right now.

 

[SnuggleCupcake]

BTW - both china and russia adopted 100% the complete opposite of open borders policies, without being labeled racist by the media. The way that Trump was for adopting an identical policy.

Just to make a note that it is both xenophobic and racist and while the media might not paint that picture, there are journalists willing to go that extra mile. For example, this BBC article on how the Chinese government has re-education camps where they are capturing and torturing Muslims in China. Or The Mowscow Time's report on a study into Russia's xenophobia.

Now, whatever you are thinking, just remember that BBC isn't by any stretch a 'small' or 'independent' media outlet. And that larger outlets are actually getting on board. Such as CNN

 

[Sanity Check]

Just to make a note that it is both xenophobic and racist and while the media might not paint that picture, there are journalists willing to go that extra mile. For example, this BBC article on how the Chinese government has re-education camps where they are capturing and torturing Muslims in China. Or The Mowscow Time's report on a study into Russia's xenophobia.

Now, whatever you are thinking, just remember that BBC isn't by any stretch a 'small' or 'independent' media outlet. And that larger outlets are actually getting on board. Such as CNN

I would guess only a tiny minority of the population reads the news.

There are countless millennials who are huge fans of the Saw horror genre and Hannibal Lecter TV series. People who pride themselves on being into things that are messed up. Who would never read or watch real news. Reality is too disturbing, they would prefer to avoid it.

Being exposed to different ideas and perspectives carries the power to change people. That can be frightening. Like one day being a caterpillar. Being exposed to new ideas. And waking up a butterfly. Or a moth. A person's identity and how they view the world changes. And so many resist that change and cling to their identity via avoiding exposure.

Like Mary Poppins says: "a spoonful of sugar, helps the medicine go down". All news publications today mix real news with fake news to make their "medicine" easier to swallow. Most are wholly unaware, clinging to their identity. Resisting the evolution of change which occurs when people are exposed to truth/facts.