American Politics

[Raven]

First of all: Trump fans cannot really get more angry and violent, not due to this. One reason they ARE angry and violent is that trump and others spur them on. Making that harder might make them angry rn, but if the people who bang the drum have less reach, that means LESS anger.

You will not see them all go to parler. That is not going to happen. The argument you make is one that in my opinion does not apply to the situation anymore. You can push someone farther to crazytown when he still is not in crazytown. You can't if he is already there. Trump supporters are not somewhat racist republicans that could still be reached if you talk to them properly. That's over. They are violent, very misguided people who are not living in our reality anymore and have people spurring them on to do things like abducting politicians, storming the capitol or other actually dangerous things like that.

And they use social media to organize. Why should we let them?
The thought of 'i should not escalate the situation' makes sense ONLY when the situation is not already completely escalated.

I honestly respect that you said that, Not just calling them a lost cause. You are with reasoning and that's the right mental to have. Nevertheless, After the recent events they will just see themselves as victims and tbh it will be very hard to reason with any trump supporter, They just attacked Arnold on twitter for saying Trump is the worst president imo It's only makes Biden promises harder at this point, He wants to unite the nation and i see it a lot harder now. But i see where are you coming from. I still don't think it was the most rational thing to make, If you can stop them today, You can't stop them tomorrow. The anger will keep building up until some point where it explode in everyone's face. Anyways i'm done with this topic. I hope you guys get along together so people can dream to immigrate to US again. ^^

 

[ninjabot]

Long story short.

Democrats and the left spent the last year inciting violence against police.

They labeled every right wing, white person in america a "white supremacist" / "nazi" and encouraged the left to attack them. "Punch a nazi" they said. And who are nazis? Every single white person who isn't an atheist or muslim. Well, isn't that convenient.

...

Now they want to claim the moral high ground? No. Its not happening.

Proof for the bolded? That everyone on the left claims every white person in America is a nazi?

This isn't what Biden is aiming for tho, He wants to heal the division and unite the nation. I know trump supporters aren't in the right mental but you aren't in the right mental too. You should have more faith in the people like Biden.

Notice how me, M3J, shionori and kckk only ridicule Trump's voter base instead of treating all Republicans like psychos? You know why that is? It's because we're reasonable human beings that understand they aren't a monolith. We DO admit that Republicans are complicit in the racist and homophobic policies they embrace because they voted for Trump, but we didn't say they're all nazi's like SOME posters are claiming. That's an example of being in the "right mental".

As for Biden wanting to go about things differently? We know. We just don't care. We didn't vote for Biden because we value centrism or "reaching across the isle to work with the other team". If I valued conservative policies I'd be a conservative, lol. I'm man enough to own up to my biases. Seriously, we voted for Biden because we wanted Trump out, and we want to start up "Operation: Bully Biden". We're gonna push him as far left as we can get him by treating him like shit.

At least that's what leftists want (that's what I mean when I say "We"). Liberals keep falling for the "No maaaaan, we're like, one big family! We can all work together maaaaaan!" shit that let's conservatives run fast and loose with their homophobic/racist policies. When you tolerate intolerance you give it the opportunity to become the norm. Enlightened centrist bullshit is gonna get more people killed.

 

[M3J]

This is a general problem of the far left.
At some point, everyone who says s th you disagree with is either a racist, sexist or sellout. Complicit, they call it.
But fortunately, the right has that problem too now. You cannot just be for trump. You either die for trump, no matter what he does, or you are a rino.

Not necessarily racist or sexist, it depends on what they say. Sellout is far more common though. However, it's pretty toxic and gets nothing done, and while I agree with their assessment of Biden, he's still a better choice. Biden promised $50,000 taken off student loans for people, and went down to $10,000 (for whatever reason, I have no idea why), but that's still better than what the republicans would have done, which is absolutely nothing. Had Clinton won, we wouldn't get people like DeVos in office or possibly Amy Coney Barrett. We talk about republican voters being against their own self-interest, but I see the left being similar too.

I'm not sure if they really have that problem, and even if they don't, they're still more likely to support whoever Trump endorses.

you are the last person to make a comment like that

The irony

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2021 ---

Notice how me, M3J, shionori and kckk only ridicule Trump's voter base instead of treating all Republicans like psychos?

just so we're clear, I do think most of them are horrible, if not all, even if they aren't psychos. But I also dislike liberals heavily because they're not heavy handed enough towards the right or the bigots on the right as they are on the left who call out bigots. They and moderates have helped the rise of people like Trump by defending free speech and talking about getting along and forgiving each other, when the republicans were the exact opposite.

 

[ninjabot]

just so we're clear, I do think most of them are horrible, if not all, even if they aren't psychos. But I also dislike liberals heavily because they're not heavy handed enough towards the right or the bigots on the right as they are on the left who call out bigots. They and moderates have helped the rise of people like Trump by defending free speech and talking about getting along and forgiving each other, when the republicans were the exact opposite.

Well yeah, ditto. We're agreeing with each other. Fuck centrists, fuck liberals, and fuck republicans. That's why I clarified that we consider Republicans complicit. Because they could've avoided sharing guilt by not voting for Trump. And yeah, I despise conservatism too. But just like with religion I understand you can condemn ideas without condemning people. I know for a fact there are a lot of people that voted for Trump because he received the nomination. They would've preferred any other Republican presidential candidate, but they had no choice (just like how I had no choice but to vote for Biden).

 

[Sanity Check]

That is another claim you make. The problem is that your worldview is formed by lots of unsubstantiated claims you read that do not have a real basis.
For every time you can clearly be disproven like with that antifa picture hoax

There was no antifa hoax. I said he attended an antifa rally. And he did.

People here said he was a "Trump supporter" and a "white supremacist".

How could he be either of those things attending antifa events.

Later this emerged.

...

 

[M3J]

Well yeah, ditto. We're agreeing with each other. Fuck centrists, fuck liberals, and fuck republicans. That's why I clarified that we consider Republicans complicit. Because they could've avoided sharing guilt by not voting for Trump. And yeah, I despise conservatism too. But just like with religion I understand you can condemn ideas without condemning people. I know for a fact there are a lot of people that voted for Trump because he received the nomination. They would've preferred any other Republican presidential candidate, but they had no choice (just like how I had no choice but to vote for Biden).

They could have also done far more as well, like vetoing him, trying to do more to impeach him, and whatnot, but they chose power over betterment of country.

It's still horrible because they knowingly voted for a bigot. If BIden was that level of a bigot, I would not have voted for him. If Clinton was a bigot like that, I would not have voted for her.

Conservative views on economy and social issues are probably the worst things about them. Doesn't the country often suffer under republicans while doing well under liberal/gearing towards socialism presidents?

I was just saying though I do have harsher views towards most of them. I'm just being nice.

There was no antifa hoax. I said he attended an antifa rally. And he did.

People here said he was a "Trump supporter" and a "white supremacist".

How could he be either of those things attending antifa events.

Later this emerged.

Give us legitimate proof, not memes you find on FB.

 

[xi0]

There was no antifa hoax. I said he attended an antifa rally. And he did.

People here said he was a "Trump supporter" and a "white supremacist".

How could he be either of those things attending antifa events.

Later this emerged.

...

Because he attended BLM protests as a COUNTERPROTESTER and agitator. The image you had of him was conveniently CROPPED.

The conclusions you drew from it were entirely self-serving of your point. The asshole has white nationalist tattoos on his chest. If people want to call him a part of some sort of false flag operation have more evidence than him simply being at BLM rallies or being an aspiring voice actor ffs. There is footage of him all over the place this year, at numerous Trump events etc. You are just clearly intent on drawing conclusions that fit your narrative while being obviously uninformed.

You have members of congress spewing this garbage because they heard it third-hand just hours after blood was shed in the Capitol, a confrontation endorsed and spurred on by the President himself. Why would any reasonable person desire reconciliation with anyone like that?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2021 ---

This is a real person who exists and actually seems genuine. And not an Andy Kaufman-level troll sent to DC to wipe Trump's ass for him... just amazing.

 

[ninjabot]

They could have also done far more as well, like vetoing him, trying to do more to impeach him, and whatnot, but they chose power over betterment of country.

Yeah. I was just pointing out not voting for him was the least they could've done. They don't have to fight against him, but the least they could do is not aid in his ability to gain power.

It's still horrible because they knowingly voted for a bigot. If BIden was that level of a bigot, I would not have voted for him. If Clinton was a bigot like that, I would not have voted for her.

Same.

Conservative views on economy and social issues are probably the worst things about them. Doesn't the country often suffer under republicans while doing well under liberal/gearing towards socialism presidents?

Mhm. You won't get a disagreement from me.

I was just saying though I do have harsher views towards most of them. I'm just being nice.

Samesies. But it's our responsibility to let empathy lead us rather than anger. Other wise we're just like them.

 

[shionoro]

There was no antifa hoax. I said he attended an antifa rally. And he did.

People here said he was a "Trump supporter" and a "white supremacist".

How could he be either of those things attending antifa events.

Later this emerged.

...

It is a hoax. He is a Q anon guy and you claimed he is with antifa. He is not. He is a rightwinger and a trump supporter (as ppl who embrace q anon are).
BUt you instantly started sharing these pictures, implying that he is from the left.
But that man is not. And still, you thought that, you shared it, and next time you see a misleading picture, you are going to do it again.

That is the problem, you did not learn from that experience.

 

[M3J]

Yeah. I was just pointing out not voting for him was the least they could've done. They don't have to fight against him, but the least they could do is not aid in his ability to gain power.



Same.



Mhm. You won't get a disagreement from me.



Samesies. But it's our responsibility to let empathy lead us rather than anger. Other wise we're just like them.

Sadly for them, it's party and power over country and people.

Oh, was seeing if I was wrong or not from someone who might know more.

I don't think they lead with anger, but use hatred to rally their supporters against and unify them, like they did against Muslims, LGBT+ people, and pro-choicers. As far as I know, it's some or most Trump supporters that have used anger.

 

[ninjabot]

Parler CEO Says Service Dropped By “Every Vendor” And Could End His Business

Parler CEO Says Service Dropped By "Every Vendor" And Could End His Business

deadline.com

Womp, womp.

 

[xi0]

This thread is absolutely insane. Long, but insane. Hadn't really seen deeper analysis into what Trump said during his speech due to the spectacle of what happened afterward. But the actual justification for his impeachment is stronger than I initially realized.

 

[shionoro]

Proof for the bolded? That everyone on the left claims every white person in America is a nazi?



Notice how me, M3J, shionori and kckk only ridicule Trump's voter base instead of treating all Republicans like psychos? You know why that is? It's because we're reasonable human beings that understand they aren't a monolith. We DO admit that Republicans are complicit in the racist and homophobic policies they embrace because they voted for Trump, but we didn't say they're all nazi's like SOME posters are claiming. That's an example of being in the "right mental".

As for Biden wanting to go about things differently? We know. We just don't care. We didn't vote for Biden because we value centrism or "reaching across the isle to work with the other team". If I valued conservative policies I'd be a conservative, lol. I'm man enough to own up to my biases. Seriously, we voted for Biden because we wanted Trump out, and we want to start up "Operation: Bully Biden". We're gonna push him as far left as we can get him by treating him like shit.

At least that's what leftists want (that's what I mean when I say "We"). Liberals keep falling for the "No maaaaan, we're like, one big family! We can all work together maaaaaan!" shit that let's conservatives run fast and loose with their homophobic/racist policies. When you tolerate intolerance you give it the opportunity to become the norm. Enlightened centrist bullshit is gonna get more people killed.

I think one problem in america is that judgement blocks solutions.

As in: Americans dont talk to each other. Not just the Qanon guys. moderate leftists and moderate republicans cannot talk to each other anymore without getting into heated arguments and calling each other names.

It is not my aim to judge. I don't think it is a good idea to just pass judgement on trump supporters and see them as enemy. If you like it or not: They are your people and you have to find ways to live with them. That does not mean that some actions should not be persecuted, but you cannot persecute a quarter of your country.

Similarly, i am not someone who thinks biden should be bullied. If the left wants to convince people, it has to find approaches besides claiming moral highground to actually get people onto their side.
And they are not good at this right now.

You are not one big family. But you are one big nation. And if that nation is supposed to last as a democratic first world state, vilifying a huge percentage of your own people is a bad first step.

 

[M3J]

Parler CEO Says Service Dropped By “Every Vendor” And Could End His Business

Parler CEO Says Service Dropped By "Every Vendor" And Could End His Business

deadline.com

Womp, womp.

Good. I'm amused because all Parler and Trump had to do was not encourage violence or insurrection, but they or Trump probably did that on purpose so they can look like victims and rile up their base even more. Shame their base doesn't know a thing about the First Amendment or what freedom of speech really is.

 

[shionoro]

I think the place they will go to might be discord or other apps like that. They are not completely unmoderated, but you can do create places with private channels that only trusted members have accesss to.

If i'd intend to organize attacks with a loose group of people, i'd probably use slack.

 

[M3J]

I wonder if Slack or DIscord would moderate these people or just ignore it and hope they don't get called out or bullshit it in a way that they don't get blamed.

 

[shionoro]

I wonder if Slack or DIscord would moderate these people or just ignore it and hope they don't get called out or bullshit it in a way that they don't get blamed.

Discord has some restrictions in place. For example, discord servers can be shut down for usage of slurs or inciting violence.
That is why the conservative discord (from the subreddit) has moderators running around telling ppl they get banned if they say 'the n word'.

However, they have roles for private channels and what gets talked about there is another matter. But any discord server of a certain size would have some infiltrators that post screenshots to discord mods.

That is why i'd use slack, mask it, have vouchers (so i scout how people behave on more public conservative channels before i invite them) and be very picky about who i take in.
If someone is posting things only people really invested into Q anon talk about for months, he is probably not a leftie posing as trumpsupporter. I can probably verify it after talking to him a bit and then he can come to the private channels where i will still check how he reacts and then, from these private channels, I'd take those i can really trust if its about getting violent (not just 'trust to be pro trump' but 'trust to pull through with it').

Places like slack or discord would have very little way of interfering with that if they do not do things like 'opening all channels for the fbi and making agents invisible', and that'd be something they could not openly do (even if it'd probably for technically). And even then, there are ways to evade that by using private messages to invite people to the private channels.

 

[ninjabot]

I think one problem in america is that judgement blocks solutions.

People keep saying that... and I guess it's a reasonable take.

As in: Americans dont talk to each other. Not just the Qanon guys. moderate leftists and moderate republicans cannot talk to each other anymore without getting into heated arguments and calling each other names.

I've had conversations with Republicans that didn't devolve into heightened emotions and fighting. It can happen, but the best that comes from these conversations is an agreement that neither of us is gonna convince the other.

It is not my aim to judge. I don't think it is a good idea to just pass judgement on trump supporters and see them as enemy. If you like it or not: They are your people and you have to find ways to live with them. That does not mean that some actions should not be persecuted, but you cannot persecute a quarter of your country.

I judge people by their actions. And that's not particular to me, or leftists, or Democrats or whatever. I've had 4 years of experience with these people. Long enough time to come to the realization that Republicans aren't a monolith. I keep saying I don't treat them all the same and that's the best I can do. I will continue to judge people by their actions however.

Similarly, i am not someone who thinks biden should be bullied. If the left wants to convince people, it has to find approaches besides claiming moral highground to actually get people onto their side.
And they are not good at this right now.

Not everyone can be reached. Sometimes you've gotta cut your losses. I know it sounds defeatist, but it's realistic.

You are not one big family. But you are one big nation. And if that nation is supposed to last as a democratic first world state, vilifying a huge percentage of your own people is a bad first step.

Sure. You shouldn't start there. You should attempt to reach to the other side... initially. After a while, (say... 4 years?)once you've realized you're pissing in the wind, it's time to zip up and go about your life. Cut your losses. This isn't a new problem. This is business as usual. I'm not saying that you're claiming we didn't try, but it certainly seems like you think we didn't try enough. And I disagree.

 

[M3J]

I think the right are dumb enough that they'll accept anyone within a week, at most, into their inner circle.

 

[shionoro]

Sure. You shouldn't start there. You should attempt to reach to the other side... initially. After a while, (say... 4 years?)once you've realized you're pissing in the wind, it's time to zip up and go about your life. Cut your losses. This isn't a new problem. This is business as usual. I'm not saying that you're claiming we didn't try, but it certainly seems like you think we didn't try enough. And I disagree.

I think you tried it the wrong way and took the wrong conclusions from it.

Discussion is not about convincing the other side. Many people misunderstand that. Discussion in a society has a more important basic function than that: convincing each other that you come in peace.

In the 90s, there were conspiracy theorists. Lots of them. Even before the internet took off. But there was a striking difference compared to those you see now. They sat at home, going deep into delusions about the government chasing them or the cia wanting to stage a coup and whatnot but aside from that, they were harmless. And that did not just have to do with the internet. They still had crazy views, but these were their own or came from their own. There weren't these grifter types that use gullible people for political or financial gain to rally them up.

You cannot convince a conspiracy theorist that there is no conspiracy. But you can convince him that you are not his enemy and see him as fellow who is lied to rather than an enemy.

I worked in a psychiatric ward and similarly to conspiracy theorists (and often these things go alike), you cannot convince most shizophrenic people that their delusions are wrong. And trying makes them believe them more. The same is true for trying to cheer up depressed people. So, if you work there, you don't.
But since they are your patients, you still gotta handle them. So, you understand at some point that, while rational arguments often do not lead to success, emotional arguments do.

America needs to talk its conspiracy truthers down. But america does not know how to talk anyone down anymore and that is the problem. It only knows how to fuel people up, on all political spectrums.
Talking them down partially means a change of rhetoric. Because they are not JUST white supremacists, they are not JUST idiots and they are not JUST terrorists. They are a quarter of your people, even the ugliest and most hateful ones of them.

The thing you need to manage is integrating them into your society and that is plainly not going to work if you only see a lost cause in them and not, like in a psychiatric ward, a patient that, no matter how deluded, still deserves to be cared for at the end of the day.