American Politics

[SonOfDaws]

Yes there is definitely incentive involved, but what are you trying to say? That the scientists working for these companies aren't being allowed to make the best possible vaccine they could possibly make?

They're made from fetal cells from abortions that happened 50+ years ago, which weren't done for the express purpose of medical research, they were donated. The alternative to using cultures from these already existing cell lines to develop vaccines for multiple diseases is using cells from other mammals which may not result in the same kind of effectiveness. We're talking about millions of deaths prevented and billions of infections. So I have to ask again, what kind of ethical question does this actually pose?

I mean, the irony that stands out here to me is that the situation as you've chosen to describe it is happening and enabled by capitalism. But obviously conservatives don't tend to enjoy that kind of conversation.

I'm saying that given what Pfizer executives themselves have said their focuses are and what's know of their processes and monetary investments, primary coronavirus vaccine corporation in the US are more than likely not concerned with making the best possible vaccines.

One person doesn't just have the right to do as they please with another person's life and body, especially when the person deciding is the other's killer.

None of these vaccine corporations are operating purely within the bounds of capitalism and they're getting massive amounts of funding, exclusivity, and special exceptions from various governments. Regardless, the economic systems of countries and political leanings are superfluous to a discussion of morality and vaccine effectiveness and production.

 

[kkck]

I mean, yeah. If you want to drop the sensationalized aspect here... there's no difference between these two scenarios -

1. A person dies in a freak accident and has no living will, their family donates their remains to medical research
2. An abortion takes place because abortion is legal and in a free society we value body autonomy, the woman donates the fetus to medical research

Previous bans on fetal tissue research are utterly pointless. Why? Because if your stance on fetal tissue research is informed by your stance on abortion, a ban on the use of it in medical research has zero effect on abortions that take place. No one changed their mind about getting an abortion because it couldn't be used in stem cell research or vaccine research.

Pretty much. I can understand the position "all fetuses are humans lives" but even that position does not change anything. Since the origin of fetal cells is not really relevant to the research or its outcome or it's result. Going by google the ones used come from a liver from a 14 week old fetus... At this point would it make a difference whether they are changed the ones they are using from a fetus that died from a different cause? Clearly this is simply pointless political tribalism.

 

[SonOfDaws]

Desecrated is.. exaggerated. Medicine has been using corpses for research for hundreds of years. So even if your stance is that every abortion is murder there is still no difference between an aborted fetus and a regular corpse. That specific bit shouldn't be the issue here. A number of vaccines have been developed using fetal cell lines which originated from those fetuses' in the 70s since then so it's fairly clear science is in no way being obstructed by these. Even if you have some objection to this specific cell lines.... the best case scenario would be something like using other fetal cell lines with different background, assuming that's possible. Which ends up seeming nickpicky and annoying at best.

Medicine has used corpses for centuries and, sometimes, those corpses were collected through unsavory means, however, normality is not morality.

Regardless, there's nothing inherently wrong with a person deciding to donate their body to science and, in most cases where there's no will, a good argument can be made for a family doing their best to figure out what that person would have wanted done with their body, however, except in the most extreme of circumstances, there's no good reason a person's killer should be the one deciding what to do with their victim's body.

 

[xi0]

I'm saying that given what Pfizer executives themselves have said their focuses are and what's know of their processes and monetary investments, primary coronavirus vaccine corporation in the US are more than likely not concerned with making the best possible vaccines.

One person doesn't just have the right to do as they please with another person's life and body, especially when the person deciding is the other's killer.

None of these vaccine corporations are operating purely within the bounds of capitalism and they're getting massive amounts of funding, exclusivity, and special exceptions from various governments. Regardless, the economic systems of countries and political leanings are superfluous to a discussion of morality and vaccine effectiveness and production.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that they're in the business of profit... by making safe and effective vaccines that help to prevent tanking the global economy that they also participate in and exploit. I'm not in the business of giving executives the benefit of the doubt, but they have no product to sell without scientists and engineers who know what they're doing. They can hold their shareholders meetings and take a "medical" stance in regards to the potential of booster shots, but that has little to do with benefit or need.

But the government does have the right to do as they please with another person's life and body?

You're not wrong there, but they're allowed to reap their profits and hold exclusivity precisely because of capitalism. It's what incentivized the entire process. I don't think that discussion is superfluous at all, as it's how the sausage is being made. But I digress.

 

[kkck]

Medicine has used corpses for centuries and, sometimes, those corpses were collected through unsavory means, however, normality is not morality.

Regardless, there's nothing inherently wrong with a person deciding to donate their body to science and, in most cases where there's no will, a good argument can be made for a family doing their best to figure out what that person would have wanted done with their body, however, except in the most extreme of circumstances, there's no good reason a person's killer should be the one deciding what to do with their victim's body.

but... what would be the point of even bothering to fix this? Would it make a difference to you if the fetal cells that are currently used were, dunno, fair trade for lack of a better word? Would it make people who object to the use of fetal cells change their minds if hypothetically the cells came from, dunno, anancephalic fetuses? As in, fetuses whose brain didn't form and have zero chance at life? Or from any other variety of conditions that might cause a fetus to fail early on that would still hypothetically be useful for research? I am not even pro abortion per say but even then I can't fathom any benefit to any of this.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2021 ---

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On another note, biden's approval rate has not recovered and his disapproval is higher than it. What's going on here? I thought going along with republicans and giving up on important policy fights was a good idea.

 

[M3J]

You cannot be a republican and claim to be a pro-lifer as their views are inherently anti-life, like their support of guns and warfare. This fake concern for fetuses is annoying, especially when it takes away women's right to their bodies.

Biden pissed off the left too, so of course his approval rate hasn't really gone up.

 

[SonOfDaws]

I think it's probably more accurate to say that they're in the business of profit... by making safe and effective vaccines that help to prevent tanking the global economy that they also participate in and exploit. I'm not in the business of giving executives the benefit of the doubt, but they have no product to sell without scientists and engineers who know what they're doing. They can hold their shareholders meetings and take a "medical" stance in regards to the potential of booster shots, but that has little to do with benefit or need.

But the government does have the right to do as they please with another person's life and body?

You're not wrong there, but they're allowed to reap their profits and hold exclusivity precisely because of capitalism. It's what incentivized the entire process. I don't think that discussion is superfluous at all, as it's how the sausage is being made. But I digress.

That's what I'd like to be the case and can be more the case if the industry can be sorted out (easier said than done), however, we have regulations because people don't always do things in a safe and product-effective manner in favor of relatively short-term profits. Those in the healthcare industry are no exception and I think the transcripts are evidence of a notable level of deviation from the ideal.

The government is no exception.

but... what would be the point of even bothering to fix this? Would it make a difference to you if the fetal cells that are currently used were, dunno, fair trade for lack of a better word? Would it make people who object to the use of fetal cells change their minds if hypothetically the cells came from, dunno, anancephalic fetuses? As in, fetuses whose brain didn't form and have zero chance at life? Or from any other variety of conditions that might cause a fetus to fail early on that would still hypothetically be useful for research? I am not even pro abortion per say but even then I can't fathom any benefit to any of this.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2021 ---

Politics News | Breaking Political News, Video & Analysis-ABC News

ABC News is your trusted source on political news stories and videos. Get the latest coverage and analysis on everything from the Trump presidency, Senate, House and Supreme Court.

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

On another note, biden's approval rate has not recovered and his disapproval is higher than it. What's going on here? I thought going along with republicans and giving up on important policy fights was a good idea.

Things in life can only grow and improve or decay and get worse. There is no man-made perfect statis either. So, if something broken, then the worsening of it is more than likely in most instances.

The situation regarding the use of aborted babies for various purposes has only gotten worse and more frequent over the years: The more these sorts of things are done, the more our society is becomes normalized to and invested in the deaths of innocents for profit, as our societies have already proved itself capable of with the military industrial complex.

Our society has grown so complacent with these forever wars and lawless, horrific bombings of innocents that the war mongers creating and perpetuating these wars for profit aren't even making any clear, productive win conditions the priority and that's a big part of the reason the Afghanistan War became the 20 year endemic that it was or rather IS until we're done bombing our allies and Afghan children over there. Likewise, as we grow more complacent with the farming or killed fetuses, the more such things are done and the more societal, intellectual, and financial investments we have in killing the humans that are the most deprived of care and help.

 

[kkck]

Things in life can only grow and improve or decay and get worse. There is no man-made perfect statis either. So, if something broken, then worsening of it is more than likely in most instances.

The situation regarding the use of aborted babies for various purposes has only gotten worse and more frequent over the years: The more these sorts of things are done, the more our society is becomes normalized to and invested in the deaths of innocents for profit, as our societies have already proved itself capable of with the military industrial complex.

Our society has grown so complacent with these forever wars and lawless, horrific bombings of innocents that the war mongers creating and perpetuating these wars for profit aren't even making any clear, productive win conditions the priority and that's a big part of the reason the Afghanistan War became the 20 year endemic that it was or rather IS until we're done bombing our allies and Afghan children over there. Likewise, as we grow more complacent with the farming or killed fetuses, the more such things are done and the more societal, intellectual, and financial investments we have in killing the humans that are the most deprived of care and help.

As for that first paragraph... that reads like gibberish.

So... just avoid the question of whether it'd even matter if the cells in question came or not from aborted fetuses. Neat.

I mean, i'm obviously not a fan of war but it seems like a pretty huge leap to go from aborted fetuses to the effects of the military industrial complex on policy. I don't think we'll disagree on our stances on the US military industrial complex but correlating this to abortions/fetal cells is plain nonsense. I also feel compelled to point out that war was a thing before abortions became socially acceptable.

 

[SonOfDaws]

As for that first paragraph... that reads like gibberish.

So... just avoid the question of whether it'd even matter if the cells in question came or not from aborted fetuses. Neat.

I mean, i'm obviously not a fan of war but it seems like a pretty huge leap to go from aborted fetuses to the effects of the military industrial complex on policy. I don't think we'll disagree on our stances on the US military industrial complex but correlating this to abortions/fetal cells is plain nonsense. I also feel compelled to point out that war was a thing before abortions became socially acceptable.

The statement was simple: All things on Earth will either grow or decay and anything that is "broken" will almost certainly decay.

The anecdotes of any one individual doesn't seem relevant, but I did explain what's wrong with such practices in the context of the situation and for the long-term:

The situation regarding the use of aborted babies for various purposes has only gotten worse and more frequent over the years: The more these sorts of things are done, the more our society is becomes normalized to and invested in the deaths of innocents for profit, as our societies have already proved itself capable of with the military industrial complex.

Continuing on, simply saying something is nonsense doesn't further the discussion as there's nothing to reason with in such statements.

With that said, I have little interest in having a conversation filled with condescension and disrespect, but I do think you have things that are worth saying and hearing. So, I think we'd be better off with things like "simply pointless political tribalism" and "is plain nonsense" are left out the dialogue.

 

[xi0]

The situation regarding the use of aborted babies for various purposes has only gotten worse and more frequent over the years

How exactly? I'm curious.

Because the example you brought up is obviously more topical, but as a result more sensationalized then say, an adenovirus vaccine for the military that the general population wouldn't even know about but has been administered since the late 1960s.

Or the fact that the same cell line used in these covid vaccines was developed from pregnancies that were terminated as a result of a pregnant woman being infected with Rubella, which is a severe risk to both mother and child. Congenital Rubella Syndrome causes a whole host of problems for children if they're carried to term, and the result of this is what led to the development of a Rubella vaccine that still exists as part of the MMR vaccine every child receives. If pregnant women are inoculated and can no longer be infected with rubella, they no longer need to worry about making the choice to terminate their pregnancy. How many children would you guess that has saved?

Or a shingles vaccine that prevents a lot of pain, suffering, and complications such as blindness, deafness, or permanent scarring. Or a rabies vaccine, or a vaccine for Hepatitis A.... the list goes on.

So you can see framing this situation as vaccine developers hanging out at the abortion clinic in order to get fresh specimens for their latest bullshit vaccine that they completely lie about probably isn't what's actually going on, is it? or do you still insist on that line of thinking?

 

[Sanity Check]

These are crucial stories, but I'm not seeing much talk of them here now. Are people just not hearing about these stories?

SOS 50 YR.

"Same Old Shit for the past 50+ years."

People: UBI is a new, innovative and progressive thing.

Reality: Universal Basic Income is a clone, reboot, 2.0 version of social security, which is old.

 

[Slaynoir]

Idk about you, but research seems to be less appreciated then I thought it was. Now I'm not really into debate or anything, but like, there is some crazy crap out there that seems a little too convenient for common knowledge to have access too. The best way to have a means to debase is to make people believe a bluff is truth. Hackers/Scammers are pros at this, they trick people into giving their ambitions money and power all the time, as the common people are fooled into the thought that what they 'assume' is of the correct nature.

I actually have an interesting example of how I found out about a scam that was sent to me. I was in a mood that day I tell you!

Not that long ago, there was a website that claimed I had been entered into a drawing and my lucky day was to earn like, 11k or something in bitcoins. Now I could've just ignored it, spam is spam. But I got curious how deep it really went. So I went in with a mock identity and began to look into the 'company' and did some research of my own. Turns out, the company that was giving this generous offer was built around four months ago and many MANY other scammers had used this similar attempt to lure people in and drain their bank accounts.

Yet there were 'millions' of users already using it with a very believable system and site that even made it seem like there were users online all at once.

So, I acted 'stupid' and asked 'hey, is this for real?' And the conversation was seriously sus. First, they wanted to know what my 'promo' code was. Second, when I applied pressure of accusing the site of being fake, there were others saying 'this place is legit' with no credit to prove it. Not only that, but they also began to attempt and undermine my emotions and logic by claiming 'even the greedy get their pay' and such, yet another flag. As I went on, one of the supposed users in the chat passively told me 'I wouldn't believe it either' when this same person had asked for my promo code from the spam.

And you want to know what was the pinnacle of sus? Not only was I being called 'simple minded' and 'I couldn't understand' but I also attempted to contact the site's admins. Guess what? Their 'server was unavailable' and I attempted this for a few days. It looked and felt real, but like many things in this world, there are those who want whatever they can get their hands on for their own desires. They will go to extreme lengths to get what they desire.

I'm also not going to disclose the site if you're wondering, I took matters into my own hands at that point.

So when you think you know the truth, the last thing you want to trust is the mass media or what you're assuming is to be right. I don't trust media in the least. It's all about power, whose right, whose wrong, and who can I make my ally for my own benefit. I'm sure there are people out there truly who mean well. But it is so easy to be tricked into giving sympathy.

Lol look at me being silly talking. I'm not really adamant about this, but it's how I feel honestly. Sometimes the 'wrong' way is the 'right' way to make others believe in what is being said. Kinda weird.

 

[M3J]

UBI is a great idea, and we need it given how jobs are being replaced by machines

 

[xi0]

Absolute clownery

 

[M3J]

she's being dragged for that bullshittery, as she should be.

 

[xi0]

Like, you don't even have the fucking spine to keep your vote "No" for the record, even when it's completely pointless since it passed something like 200-10. You fail at even being symbolic and instead think your histrionics will distract from your cowardice. Why take anything you say at face value?

 

[kkck]

That's a bit of US politics I don't get. Representatives and senators seem way too concerned about their vote being on the record. Even though your stances are on youtube anyways. So... what's the point?

 

[xi0]

That's a bit of US politics I don't get. Representatives and senators seem way too concerned about their vote being on the record. Even though your stances are on youtube anyways. So... what's the point?

They stupidly think the average voter looks up their voting record in the first place

 

[Sanity Check]

UBI is a great idea, and we need it given how jobs are being replaced by machines

There are better solutions than UBI.

The long term solution is for everyone to shift to an off grid lifestyle.

Programs like UBI that increasingly tax work to subsidize non work are never sustainable and represent the definition of diminishing returns.

As shown by recent projections of social security failing in the 2030s.

Absolute clownery

Not naming names. There are a politicians who often pretend to oppose measures. Then flip at the last second and vote for all of the things they spent weeks speaking out against.

The funny thing is, people only remember hearing of them "opposing" things. They usually don't hear about the last second flop.

AOC is an anomaly in that regard.

 

[xi0]

Not naming names. There are a politicians who often pretend to oppose measures. Then flip at the last second and vote for all of the things they spent weeks speaking out against.

They don't change their vote and then cry crocodile tears on the house floor in an attempt to save face with her stupid Twitter stans or whatever the hell that was.