American Politics

[ninjabot]

I dunno what other reason there could be for this particular choice then, other than anti-oil activists attacking oil paintings. Could be as simple as they wanted to make a big splash and their usual acts weren't getting the eyes they wanted. More civilians in an art exhibit than say, at an oil refinery.

 

[M3J]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was all staged to make the actual activists look bad.

 

[shionoro]

@xi0 @ninjabot

Firstly: It is important to note that the painting was not destroyed. It was behind Glas, only the glas got some dirt on it. The painting is safe. The action was symbolic, nothing was destroyed.

Secondly, there is some (rather thin, but still) evidence that protest like this works. https://www.socialchangelab.org/survey

"The number of people saying that they were likely to engage in some form of climate action over the next 12 months increased from 8.7% to 11.3% over a 3-week period, equivalent to approximately 1.7 million adults in the UK."

This is about their protest back in april, but i think it is similar. The point is to do what rightwingers do since a decade: create latmus tests.
These activists do something that they know will make many people angry. And they know that these angry reactions will overshoot and invite people who at least support climate causes to fight back agianst them.

There will always be discussion about "is this justified" and there will always be people that, even if they do not support the form of the protest, will say "we are in a climate emergency, harsh action is justified".

Having that point, "harsh action is justified", being repeated again and again in public and in discussion with the people who are getting angry is very helpful in changing public opinion.

It is the same thing Trump and his il successfully did. They did something that was outrageous by the standards of that time, but it led to their base and people who at least somewhat agree with rightwing causes to defend them, and that fires up the base and changes the coordinates of the discussion.
It just is for the right cause this time.

So the point is not whether the painting has anything to do with oil. The point is to create maximum outrage while still being defensible for people who take the climate change discussion seriously.

 

[xi0]

Firstly: It is important to note that the painting was not destroyed. It was behind Glas, only the glas got some dirt on it. The painting is safe. The action was symbolic, nothing was destroyed.

Yeah I'm aware. The issue is that if this is motivation or inspiration for other acts, maybe not even related to climate change, does this act have net benefit? What happens when they do it to something that isn't protected by glass? What is the reasoning for art being the target?

I'm not clutching my pearls over this, no damage was done. I would still not see completely unrelated art being the target. Target things that represent the existing power structure, etc.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 17, 2022, Original Post Date: Oct 17, 2022 ---

The average person or boomer isn't seeing this display and going "wow, this was so poignant and thought provoking", they're seeing kids with rainbow hair being a nuisance.

 

[shionoro]

Yeah I'm aware. The issue is that if this is motivation or inspiration for other acts, maybe not even related to climate change, does this act have net benefit? What happens when they do it to something that isn't protected by glass? What is the reasoning for art being the target?

I'm not clutching my pearls over this, no damage was done. I would still not see completely unrelated art being the target. Target things that represent the existing power structure, etc.
--- Double Post Merged, 15 minutes ago, Original Post Date: 18 minutes ago ---
The average person or boomer isn't seeing this display and going "wow, this was so poignant and thought provoking", they're seeing kids with rainbow hair being a nuisance.

But we increasingly have to accept that Boomers cannot be convinced. There are enough people convinced of climate change being an issue that needs to be tackled. More than half of the people in the UK (60%) endorse the views of just stop oil, they are just not necessarily ok with the method.

The people who do not want to take more climate action will not be swayed by ANYTHING. They are a minority that needs to be disregarded, it is about the people who care for the climate and about inspiring them to take action. And the protests achieve that.

If the actual picture had been harmed, that would probably make for a worse action. I think they took that into account. First people thought the painting was harmed, but then their supporters had ammunition: "no, the painting was not harmed. But why do you care more about a painting than about nature being destroyed?"
That argument sticks. " we did not do what you accuse us of, but why do you use your outrage about that and not about the climate?". That is why art made a good target. Another reason is that the museum is partially funded by BP, but I don't think that is very relevant.

Art being the target is useful because many people claim to care (it gets attention), but you can open up the argument about why an old painting has to be preserved while immeasurable natural treasures are destroyed everyday without the same outrage.

 

[xi0]

Art being the target is useful because many people claim to care (it gets attention), but you can open up the argument about why an old painting has to be preserved while immeasurable natural treasures are destroyed everyday without the same outrage.

Maybe, but those other things might not be suitable for an art museum? Sorry, this just seems kinda aimless to me. Which painting will be next? What if there's no change, what will be vandalized next?

 

[Brandish μ]

If they want to succeed their protest needs depth. Atm they have a tomato soup, it's a canned thing, quick and convenient, but lacking bold, fresh flavour, and no nuances or undertones to write home about. How can you remember this soup? Dishing the analogy - Just Stop Oil, and then what? These protests have zero effect on me regarding the topic of climate change, and I don't take these kids seriously.

Then again, maybe it is effective on Twitter or something, and can start trends that way... Idk.

 

[shionoro]

Maybe, but those other things might not be suitable for an art museum? Sorry, this just seems kinda aimless to me. Which painting will be next? What if there's no change, what will be vandalized next?

@Brandish μ

Really, it does not matter, as long as it grab attention. For example, they could chain themselves to a goal in the middle of a soccer match. Really anything that causes flashy disruption but that does not actively harm people. Disruption of the Status Quo IS the aim of this.
There are lots and lots of more rational forms of protest or information. The question that this protest, when arguing about it, can raise is: If you dont like just stop oil, why do you not march with fridays for future or a similar environmental organization that does not use unlawful protest?
Either that points a person who DOES care about climate to do more, or the person arguing has to admit they do not really care, which directly is the reason why that form of irrational protest is happening and will keep happening. Because people are still in denial about the catastrophe that is to come.
As such, this protest is effective in legitimizing lawful forms of protest and action and giving them attention on the long run.

So, if people ask "why harm a painting for climate", answering "because the IPCC report didnt work yet and my protest signs are ignored" is not a bad answer. You need a form of protest that cannot be ignored, no matter what you do to achieve it, as long as you point to the right problem.

 

[xi0]

Remove the sarcasm and you could replace Anime with anything else this neofascist pedophile rails against and it would seem like a serious assessment from him.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 18, 2022, Original Post Date: Oct 18, 2022 ---

Really, it does not matter, as long as it grab attention.

I really don't think that's true at all. People run onto the field during sports events all of the time, many doing so as a form of protest. Does anyone remember or care why they do it? Even the repeat offenders? I think you're vastly overrating the effectiveness there.

 

[ninjabot]

I just saw that, lol. And I've seen chud anime fans crying because of it too. "I agree with everything Matt says but this broke my heart", says one youtube comment I've seen.

Imagine needing your favorite pundit to enjoy the things you enjoy. Hell, imagine respecting Matt Walsh. *shudders*

 

[shionoro]

I really don't think that's true at all. People run onto the field during sports events all of the time, many doing so as a form of protest. Does anyone remember or care why they do it? Even the repeat offenders? I think you're vastly overrating the effectiveness there.

As I said, there are numbers to back up that the "just stop oil" protests are working. They make it more likely that people partake in climate protests or other such action. They are not comparable to insulated actions like the ones you mention.

What you have here is a group of activists that stand for opinions that the general public shares, for starters. 60% of britains support JSO demands. You have a machinery of green politicians, other lawful green movements, scientists and media that support their claims,even if they are not ok with their form of protest.
Every time they protest, there are a lot of people, that are not part of that group, that remind people that JSO is actually right in their views.

In a situation in which most of the general public agrees that we should take climate action but is not ready to demand it with more force yet, such action is a good way to create a bigger sense of urgency for those who want more action but were just "going with the flow" so far.
This is just not easy to ignore if it keeps happening and even keeps happening in bigger numbers and higher severity all over the western world.

 

[ninjabot]

https://i.redd.it/q0kdcfe2wdu91.jpg

Fuckin' knew it. And I'm almost positive this is what Musk wanted to do too. Get rid of Twitter since he couldn't back out on buying it. Though, at least Twitter is a worthwhile platform to own.

 

[M3J]

As I said, there are numbers to back up that the "just stop oil" protests are working. They make it more likely that people partake in climate protests or other such action. They are not comparable to insulated actions like the ones you mention.

provide those then

 

[shionoro]

provide those then

I did, above . . .

Survey | Social Change Lab

www.socialchangelab.org

These numbers are about the prior JSO protests in april which were not less radical (they demolished gas stations, blocked traffic, and so on. You can read it here Just Stop Oil protesters vow to continue until ‘all are jailed’ | Environmental activism | The Guardian .
A lot of people, just like now, were angry and the protests got a wide media coverage in Britain. But:


"Three nationally representative surveys (see notes to editors for the full survey and additional results) of over 2,000 adults in the UK were conducted on Tuesday, March 29th, before the major protests against oil infrastructure began, Saturday 9th of April and Tuesday 19th of April. Results show that three weeks after the Just Stop Oil protests began, the number of people who were likely to talk with friends and family about climate change, contact their MP about climate issues and attend a legal protest about climate change had risen by a statistically significant amount.

The number of people saying that they were likely to engage in some form of climate action over the next 12 months increased from 8.7% to 11.3% over a 3-week period, equivalent to approximately 1.7 million adults in the UK."

These protests, whether directly or indirectly, influence people, even tho they were just getting started. At least in the aftermath of the protest, more people were likely to partake in climate action than before the protests. We do not know about the long term effects here, but even if the effeects are short: as long as JSO continues permanently, people are influenced by it in a positive way (for the climate).

It cannot be said that the protest is ineffective just because lots of people are angry or because not all of their actions can directly be linked to fossil fuels. So far, we can see that their efforts are fruitful.

 

[M3J]

That source was written in April....... before the paintings?

 

[Brandish μ]

@Brandish μ

Really, it does not matter, as long as it grab attention. For example, they could chain themselves to a goal in the middle of a soccer match. Really anything that causes flashy disruption but that does not actively harm people. Disruption of the Status Quo IS the aim of this.
There are lots and lots of more rational forms of protest or information. The question that this protest, when arguing about it, can raise is: If you dont like just stop oil, why do you not march with fridays for future or a similar environmental organization that does not use unlawful protest?
Either that points a person who DOES care about climate to do more, or the person arguing has to admit they do not really care, which directly is the reason why that form of irrational protest is happening and will keep happening. Because people are still in denial about the catastrophe that is to come.
As such, this protest is effective in legitimizing lawful forms of protest and action and giving them attention on the long run.

So, if people ask "why harm a painting for climate", answering "because the IPCC report didnt work yet and my protest signs are ignored" is not a bad answer. You need a form of protest that cannot be ignored, no matter what you do to achieve it, as long as you point to the right problem.

Okay, so your point is these irrational protests will help the lawful protests by grabbing the attention and highlighting climate change. There's people who may think this, because there's at least one (yourself). I guess if there's 1000 people who are inspired, it's a win. That's about the scale of disruption to the status quo we are talking about, right? That's my guess. And you will lose some people who are just offended that 20-year-old brats act up like that - there will be those.

Honestly, there's enough extreme weather to 'grab attention'. Will tomato juice give that extra nudge? Maybe, and in that case, why not. Even if we're just throwing a whole heap of darts at the dart board hoping one will stick.

 

[xi0]

I just saw that, lol. And I've seen chud anime fans crying because of it too. "I agree with everything Matt says but this broke my heart", says one youtube comment I've seen.

Imagine needing your favorite pundit to enjoy the things you enjoy. Hell, imagine respecting Matt Walsh. *shudders*

It's fine, Walsh just isn't aware of the tacit endorsement of pedophilia that much of anime displays. They'll wear him down someday.

 

[shionoro]

That source was written in April....... before the paintings?

I explained that in my post. The actions of JSO started long ago, before april, and they have always used flashy methods like the painting. Just Stop Oil campaigners glue themselves to Da Vinci copy in Royal Academy | Just Stop Oil | The Guardian
So do their brother campaigns Extinction Rebellion activists glued to Science Museum site in Shell protest | Extinction Rebellion | The Guardian

There is no reason to think that, suddenly, that stops being effective.

Okay, so your point is these irrational protests will help the lawful protests by grabbing the attention and highlighting climate change. There's people who may think this, because there's at least one (yourself). I guess if there's 1000 people who are inspired, it's a win. That's about the scale of disruption to the status quo we are talking about, right? That's my guess. And you will lose some people who are just offended that 20-year-old brats act up like that - there will be those.

Honestly, there's enough extreme weather to 'grab attention'. Will tomato juice give that extra nudge? Maybe, and in that case, why not. Even if we're just throwing a whole heap of darts at the dart board hoping one will stick.

No, the scale is in the millions, if you read my link. And I doubt anyone is lost. If some climate activist, someone who ACTUALLY votes for climate action or even protests himself, is annoyed by these protests, i very much doubt his reaction is to stop believing in his own ideals. The only people who might really be put off by these protests are people who are not doing anything useful anyway.

The point is not JUST to make lawful protest more powerful. It is also to communicate a sense of urgency. There is something going on causing disruption and people need to continuously talk about it, and it is connected to climate change. Emotionally, that translates to climate change becoming a more urgent issue.
And that sense of urgency and disruption is what we need right now.

 

[Brandish μ]

No, the scale is in the millions, if you read my link. And I doubt anyone is lost. If some climate activist, someone who ACTUALLY votes for climate action or even protests himself, is annoyed by these protests, i very much doubt his reaction is to stop believing in his own ideals. The only people who might really be put off by these protests are people who are not doing anything useful anyway.

The point is not JUST to make lawful protest more powerful. It is also to communicate a sense of urgency. There is something going on causing disruption and people need to continuously talk about it, and it is connected to climate change. Emotionally, that translates to climate change becoming a more urgent issue.
And that sense of urgency and disruption is what we need right now.

I meant losing potential climate people. The ones already willing to protest are already convinced, it's the rest, i.e., the blind and dormant, that need the nudge?

Urgency is what we need, sure, will bratty protests do it? We can only hope.

 

[shionoro]

I meant losing potential climate people. The ones already willing to protest are already convinced, it's the rest, i.e., the blind and dormant, that need the nudge?

Urgency is what we need, sure, will bratty protests do it? We can only hope.

As i said, the numbers back it up. This link says (at the lower half) that especially the number of people who said they were unlikely or very unlikely to take part in climate action diminished after the april JSO protests. Survey | Social Change Lab

This protest is effective all over the board. If you are actually a potential climate activist, that means you are already convinced of climate change. If you are not convinced of climate change by now, there are countless of scientists and more moderate forms of activism that try to get through to you.
There is really no excuse for those who still deny climate change. The people who do need to be disregarded, we cannot wait for them.