American Politics

[kkck]

So from what I am reading Trump not only had gains from hispanic votes but also other minorities... The democratic party is in shambles.

 

[Raven]

Who would have thought after what they did

 

[xi0]

Women, minorities, social media, and higher education systems. You go to college, you come out further left. As for you, I can't argue against your anecdotal experience, but if I'm gonna honor your anecdotes I've gotta do the same for the millions of young white men with differing experiences. And they're looking for acceptance from a group that is appealing to them. Culturally, there are things that are rightwing coded, and these groups aren't angry hateful people by nature, so when a young man finds himself a member of these groups: he's fasttracked down the Rightwing pipe line.

Gyms and physical fitness? Rightwing.
Guns? Rightwing.
Edgy humor? Rightwing.
Traditional gender roles? Rightwing.

What does the Left have that appeals to the young cis-het man?

Yeah I won't pretend like I have the answer. Short of an upbringing that actually emphasizes empathy of some sort. And even then, men have a tendency to get bogged down in what people call toxic masculinity.

Coincidentally this topic seemed to come across my timeline and I kind of have the same sentiments as this person -



I know people should still try to win hearts and minds but I have no fucking clue who could have the kind of patience to bother with people like this. To be blunt, we'd all be better off if they were lobotomized.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2024, Original Post Date: Nov 7, 2024 ---

I see some dems on x blaming white women for the loss. I read many posts suggesting that they are just going with whatever their husband say, But I heard yesterday on tv a statistics shows older white women vote more blue than older white men who vote more red.

They vote less red than their husbands but they still favor Republicans more than women of other demographics. Women are emphasized here because of issues like reproductive rights which Trump gives no fuck about.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2024 ---

 

[z.5]

People like DiscordianKitty likely don't want to actually 'understand' - it's far easier for them to quarantine all male Trump voters into nice small boxes (along with the 'rapists' and 'woman haters'), rather than actually take 5 (or more?) minutes to think that there were a lot of men who voted for Trump and the chances of them all being as vile as the worst in their box is rather unlikely...

Not sure I'd have to stretch like Barbados Slim to suggest that people with her viewpoint might not be helping [and might well be part of the problem?]

 

[ninjabot]

Yeah I won't pretend like I have the answer. Short of an upbringing that actually emphasizes empathy of some sort. And even then, men have a tendency to get bogged down in what people call toxic masculinity.

Coincidentally this topic seemed to come across my timeline and I kind of have the same sentiments as this person -

Yeah. We know what toxic masculinity is, and we know when and how to point it out. But we don't know what positive masculinity is (the royal we), or when to point it out. If you're only ever negatively reinforced and never, ever positively reinforced, you learn to resent the people that keep shoving your mistakes in your face.

I know people should still try to win hearts and minds but I have no fucking clue who could have the kind of patience to bother with people like this.

Oh yes you do.

:3

To be blunt, we'd all be better off if they were lobotomized.

So, groypers are a lost cause. I'm talking about building up kids so that they don't look for validation in places like this to begin with. These people gravitate to Fuentes because they're like him. Fuentes is a closeted gay half hispanic incel virgin that feels important when he has people raging at him for his edgy humor and pseudo-intellectual rhetoric. Being hated is better than being ignored, because if they hate you, you have control over them. You can't be dismissed anymore. You matter.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2024, Original Post Date: Nov 7, 2024 ---

People like DiscordianKitty likely don't want to actually 'understand' - it's far easier for them to quarantine all male Trump voters into nice small boxes (along with the 'rapists' and 'woman haters'), rather than actually take 5 (or more?) minutes to think that there were a lot of men who voted for Trump and the chances of them all being as vile as the worst in their box is rather unlikely...

Not sure I'd have to stretch like Barbados Slim to suggest that people with her viewpoint might not be helping [and might well be part of the problem?]

This, 100%.

You know the correct response to someone that tells you White Lives Matter? "I agree." That's it. Don't accuse them of dog-whistling, or secretly knowing why it's bad to say it. Just agree. Don't die on dumb hills.

When a man brings up unfairness that men have to experience that favors women, the correct response is "Yeah, it really do be like that." Don't justify the unfairness as okay because of all the sexism women have experienced.

 

[xi0]

People like DiscordianKitty likely don't want to actually 'understand' - it's far easier for them to quarantine all male Trump voters into nice small boxes (along with the 'rapists' and 'woman haters'), rather than actually take 5 (or more?) minutes to think that there were a lot of men who voted for Trump and the chances of them all being as vile as the worst in their box is rather unlikely...

Not sure I'd have to stretch like Barbados Slim to suggest that people with her viewpoint might not be helping [and might well be part of the problem?]

She was still asking a question, how do you reach someone who likes Tate or a Groyper? Not all Trump voters are those types, but if we're talking specifically like the young demographic that is more able to be influenced by those types, how is it avoidable when everything a sensible person might stand for is "gay" and "woke"?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 7, 2024, Original Post Date: Nov 7, 2024 ---

Oh yes you do.

:3

I mean, I don't really. Aside from your now very frequent proselytizing of him.

This, 100%.

You know the correct response to someone that tells you White Lives Matter? "I agree." That's it. Don't accuse them of dog-whistling, or secretly knowing why it's bad to say it. Just agree. Don't die on dumb hills.

When a man brings up unfairness that men have to experience that favors women, the correct response is "Yeah, it really do be like that." Don't justify the unfairness as okay because of all the sexism women have experienced.

This is pretty much the coddling I was talking about earlier. People shouldn't have to confirm people's biases as a way to not die on dumb hills. Someone already looking in Andrew Tate's direction for guidance on women isn't some unlucky sap, they're likely already hateful and looking for any reason to blame anyone other than themselves for their predicament.

 

[ninjabot]

I mean, I don't really. Aside from your now very frequent proselytizing of him.

Well, he is the only person on the left that is willing to talk to the other side without demonizing them. It's why he gets donations from chatters thanking him for pulling them from the far Right (and farl left) regularly. I would've thought you heard about the infamous Chicken and Waffles date he had with Nick Fuentes.

This is pretty much the coddling I was talking about earlier. People shouldn't have to confirm people's biases as a way to not die on dumb hills. Someone already looking in Andrew Tate's direction for guidance on women isn't some unlucky sap, they're likely already hateful and looking for any reason to blame anyone other than themselves for their predicament.

That isn't coddling. You're not coddling someone by not attacking them. You're picking a fight that doesn't need to be fought. It IS true that there are things that are unfair for men. It IS true that white lives matter. Validation isn't coddling.

You're actually doing the meme right now. Just curious: have you ever told someone "It's not my job to educate you" when they asked you about political differences they have with you?

As for the bolded, once again, I'm talking about the kids that haven't gotten there yet. Did you ever see that video of like, 12 year old boys meeting Sneako and screaming "fuck women and trans people"? Were they "too far gone"?

 

[shionoro]

Generally, you reach people by understanding and sharing their existential struggles. Whatever they may be. There is a huge overlap of trump voters and those who were fucked over by inflation. Generally, I think it is a wise idea to care for the economic struggles of people. if there are some leftist groups who help people who are fucked over by their landlords or bosses, that would be really helpful longterm. Because elseways, people will have a negative view of the government and find other scapegoats with the help of the right.

 

[z.5]

She was still asking a question, how do you reach someone who likes Tate or a Groyper?

She was asking, but it came across as rather a rhetorical to me
It's pretty easy to 'just ask a question' when no answer is required or even wanted. It's a pretty easy way to make a point that is guaranteed to win approval from the already converted

How do we reach out to X who like what Y is selling? Give underage brides to all? Cut the legs off of all people with ginger hair?

Maybe I am being unfair to her, but it read to me like 'young men' only voted for Trump due to 'deplorable X, Y and Z'... Is the only way to reach out to them to give them X, Y and Z?

Perhaps their method of appealing to their 'empathy' needs a different approach?
Perhaps there is another route to reach them/win their votes?

Maybe they just didn't try hard enough?!?

Again, maybe I am doing her a disservice (happy to accept I may well be, as I know nothing about her), but I have certainly seen an awful lot of condescending 'appeals' from other people preaching the 'good word'


In my opinion, people who want to strip woman of their rights or legitimize rape aren't worth the effort - and I seriously doubt they make up the vast majority of the young male Republican votes



TLDR - if that is a legitimate question then I think it is the wrong question

Instead, one should be asking 'how can we get the majority of the young men who don't condone rape or loss of abortion rights/etc. to want to go out and vote for us [rather than staying at home and not voting/voting for Trump over our nomination]?'

 

[kkck]

BINGO. "Healthy at any size" is a left-wing thing. Not to mention a fit body fits the idea of being strong. Strength breeds confidence.

This is still rent free in my head. Republicans were sort of a body positivity party until democrats took the fun out of it.

 

[ninjabot]

That isn't even new, you're like 8 years too late to get in on that conversation.

 

[M3J]

You know the correct response to someone that tells you White Lives Matter? "I agree." That's it. Don't accuse them of dog-whistling, or secretly knowing why it's bad to say it. Just agree. Don't die on dumb hills.

When a man brings up unfairness that men have to experience that favors women, the correct response is "Yeah, it really do be like that." Don't justify the unfairness as okay because of all the sexism women have experienced.

... So instead of taking the time to try to educate, you'd much rather let them stay and spread their ignorance? Sound about right for libs.





The way liberals are reacting right now is ensuring that Dems don't win future elections because they're showing how bigoted or shitty they actually are. Instead of trying to figure out why they lost, and what they can do to win, and instead of talking and listening to the people that didn't vote or voted for Trump or third party, they decide to attack them.

This is one of the reasons why Harris didn't get as many votes as she did.

 

[wojak]

Democratic Party is such a big tent now that if they try to cater to one group another group will feel abandoned. And there hardly seems to a way to convince them other than saying that Republicans will do worse. Which is a good motivation for many not to vote republicans but this also makes a lot of them to not vote at all. Which is why I think Kamala lost votes.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 8, 2024, Original Post Date: Nov 8, 2024 ---

Republicans actually have some messaging that vast majority of their base can agree on.
America First, strong economy, less illegal immigration and focus on law and order stuff. Most of their base support that. So they turn out to vote.
Democrats have no such coalition of ideas. Democrats biggest unifying idea is that Trump is bad.

 

[M3J]

Democratic Party is such a big tent now that if they try to cater to one group another group will feel abandoned. And there hardly seems to a way to convince them other than saying that Republicans will do worse. Which is a good motivation for many not to vote republicans but this also makes a lot of them to not vote at all. Which is why I think Kamala lost votes.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 8, 2024, Original Post Date: Nov 8, 2024 ---

Republicans actually have some messaging that vast majority of their base can agree on.
America First, strong economy, less illegal immigration and focus on law and order stuff. Most of their base support that. So they turn out to vote.
Democrats have no such coalition of ideas. Democrats biggest unifying idea is that Trump is bad.

They can cater to all groups. The left and liberals supposedly agree on most things anyway.

 

[wojak]

What would these be? And who are classified as left and who are classified as liberals? Are the liberals classical liberals or neo liberals?

 

[M3J]

I mean, does it matter? Both do not like bigotry, seemingly, and both agree on government helping out people who need it, from medicare for all to welfare.

 

[wojak]

There is a world of difference in ideology between a neo liberal and a usual leftist. Too much that I’d say it’s almost impossible to find enough common grounds to satisfy both sides.

 

[M3J]

But in some cases the core is the same, with liberals being more selfish from my observation.

 

[ninjabot]

... So instead of taking the time to try to educate, you'd much rather let them stay and spread their ignorance? Sound about right for libs.

No, it's a good idea to educate. Just don't condescend, and don't dismiss their emotions. Pick your battles. If they're furious because someone on Twitter called them a racist for saying that it's okay to be white, then that's NOT the time to explain to them why White Lives Matter is problematic. But if you're having a friendly conversation like say, if they ask you why people get upset from hearing WLM you could say "Well yeah, we all agree that white lives matter. It's just, it feels to black people that their lives are treated inferior to white lives, and when they're voicing their concerns it feels dismissive to them to hear people complain about their own concerns as a response. It's tone deaf."

And it's super weird that you'd claim that Libs are the ones that don't want to educate people, when it's leftists who famously say "It's not my job to educate you" when someone that disagrees with them asks for an explanation as to why they should accept that they're wrong. That's the meme. I even typed it out earlier.

The way liberals are reacting right now is ensuring that Dems don't win future elections because they're showing how bigoted or shitty they actually are. Instead of trying to figure out why they lost, and what they can do to win, and instead of talking and listening to the people that didn't vote or voted for Trump or third party, they decide to attack them.

This is one of the reasons why Harris didn't get as many votes as she did.

You're doing that thing again where you think Leftists count for more than they do. Literally every demographic in the nation chose not to vote for her, you don't get to pretend like Leftists were the secret key to victory. And it's hilarious to see Hasan try to paint THAT as the reason for Kamala losing. She lost because EVERYONE disliked her.

Unless you're honestly trying to trick us all into believing that there are enough Leftists in America to dwarf EVERY SINGLE VOTING DEMOGRAPHIC.

The simple answer is, people think Trump is the key to a better economy. And they value that over establishment politicians.

Democratic Party is such a big tent now that if they try to cater to one group another group will feel abandoned. And there hardly seems to a way to convince them other than saying that Republicans will do worse. Which is a good motivation for many not to vote republicans but this also makes a lot of them to not vote at all. Which is why I think Kamala lost votes.
--- Double Post Merged, Today at 1:34 AM, Original Post Date: Today at 1:28 AM ---
Republicans actually have some messaging that vast majority of their base can agree on.
America First, strong economy, less illegal immigration and focus on law and order stuff. Most of their base support that. So they turn out to vote.
Democrats have no such coalition of ideas. Democrats biggest unifying idea is that Trump is bad.

Destiny said literally everything you've said today. I concur with all of it. But at least now we know which group to excise like a cancer lol.

But in some cases the core is the same, with liberals being more selfish from my observation.

Selfishness is refusing to vote unless your government chooses to focus on your single issue.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 8, 2024, Original Post Date: Nov 8, 2024 ---

 

[M3J]

No, it's a good idea to educate. Just don't condescend, and don't dismiss their emotions. Pick your battles. If they're furious because someone on Twitter called them a racist for saying that it's okay to be white, then that's NOT the time to explain to them why White Lives Matter is problematic. But if you're having a friendly conversation like say, if they ask you why people get upset from hearing WLM you could say "Well yeah, we all agree that white lives matter. It's just, it feels to black people that their lives are treated inferior to white lives, and when they're voicing their concerns it feels dismissive to them to hear people complain about their own concerns as a response. It's tone deaf."

And it's super weird that you'd claim that Libs are the ones that don't want to educate people, when it's leftists who famously say "It's not my job to educate you" when someone that disagrees with them asks for an explanation as to why they should accept that they're wrong. That's the meme. I even typed it out earlier.

Majority of the left I've seen that says it's not their job to educate someone have said that after spending time doing research and providing sources only for it to be dismissed, because the other side was acting in bad faith. Even then they've still provided sources and educated anyway.

It's super weird you say not to condescend and dismiss emotions when you (and most other libs/Dems) have been doing that for well over a year and pushed away a lot of voters.

But yes, that is the perfect time toe explain why it's problematic to say White/All Lives Matter, and why they were called a racist for saying it's okay to be white. Moments like this are actually perfect for educating, and in some cases I and others have managed to help people understand. Not addressing it when the moment appears is one reason why we're in the rut that we are, especially thanks to the centrists and people/media like Jubilee trying to make dumb points look legit.

If someone says Trump is great for the economy and that the tariffs will help, that is a great moment to show them how wrong they are, and how tariffs will increase the cost of goods for us. I'd love to dismiss them as idiots, don't get me wrong, but trying is better.

You're doing that thing again where you think Leftists count for more than they do. Literally every demographic in the nation chose not to vote for her, you don't get to pretend like Leftists were the secret key to victory. And it's hilarious to see Hasan try to paint THAT as the reason for Kamala losing. She lost because EVERYONE disliked her.

Unless you're honestly trying to trick us all into believing that there are enough Leftists in America to dwarf EVERY SINGLE VOTING DEMOGRAPHIC.

The simple answer is, people think Trump is the key to a better economy. And they value that over establishment politicians.

I'm doing that thing based on evidence. People disliked Biden as well, but he still won the popular vote, and I know the left were working hard to make sure as many people voted as possible. Clinton was less popular, yet the left still voted for her because of Trump's rhetoric, and she won the popular vote as well. Biden and then Harris alienated the left immensely and made wrong moves, and the left didn't want to vote for either as result, and Harris lost the popular vote in such a humiliating way. The Dems needed Muslims and the left's votes, but they chose to pander to republicans and moderates instead.

Dems campaigned your way, destiny's way, and others' way, and Harris lost badly. Omar and Tlaib are left-wing Muslims who support Palestine, who campaigned to their bases, and they won. Hasan is correct. I'm surrounded by libs like you, the left that even I disagree with when it comes to Harris (I'd rather have Harris than Trump), and Trump supporters.

Not everyone disliked her, unless you're trying to trick us into believing that her likeability was the only reason she lost, and it wasn't the Dems' strategy's fault. She had a lot of momentum when she was chosen to succeed Biden, although if Dems actually held a primary, I doubt she'd have won. She and Biden both chose to fuck up that momentum continuously by saying dumb shit and doing dumb shit.

Yet he got one million less votes than he did last time. Dems need to start blaming themselves, Biden and Harris, and their horrible strategy. And stop burning bridges with people and start listening to them.

Selfishness is refusing to vote unless your government chooses to focus on your single issue.

I don't think you know what selfish means.

Muslims and the left did not vote for Harris because of the violence happening to other groups of people, not them. That's selfless.
Liberals have proven to be more selfish because as soon as they didn't get what they want, they started showing their bigotry, actually proving Muslims, Latinos, and Palestinian supporters correct.
It's also not a single issue. Stop living in your echo chamber and try listening to the left and Palestinians. They've been warning Democrats for over six months what would happen if Biden didn't stop Israel, and if Harris didn't stop Israel. They were too selfish to do that.