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ninjabot

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My take is that most people want to eat healthy and be fit. Even those who claim otherwise.Which teen loves to be fat? I wouldnt know one.
The second part, sure. The first part? Absolutely not, at least not in the states. That's something that has to be ingrained into Americans from a very young age. Heart disease is still the number 1 killer in America and it's even moreso in black communities. This has been the case for decades.

Hmmm, I don't buy into the poverty/stress angle THAT much. There's lots of places that are poorer than the US and people are at least thin (though obesity worldwide is probably increasing). Obviously poverty and stress is a factor but I would still make the case that culture is as much, if not a larger problem.
Agreed. I spent a week in the Philippines and everyone there just looked like they were more lively and fit. Partially from all the walking and relying on public transportation making their lives less sedentary than in a lot of America cities (at least where I'm from. There's NO public transportation here). I know what to eat, and I know how to cook, but I know that more delicious food is faster, more readily available, and can be delivered so I can maintain my sedentary lifestyle of "no exercise outside of work and fighting on the internet." I had a high metabolism into my 30s so I had the physic of a bronze god. Now? All these Cherry Pepsis are making me look like a slob. If I could just cut out soda I could at least stop at this Dadbod state >.>
 

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The second part, sure. The first part? Absolutely not, at least not in the states. That's something that has to be ingrained into Americans from a very young age. Heart disease is still the number 1 killer in America and it's even moreso in black communities. This has been the case for decades.
There are people, all over the world (usually men) who love to make it a thing that they eat some crazy double whoppers that induce diabetes. And I know that American marketing for these products is very strong. But I do think that even these people deep down want to have a healthy body. There are thin people who eat like that because they think they are otherwise healthy and can do it. And there are obese people who do it because they do not believe they can ever be thin and thus embrace that lifestyle. But I think deep down most people want to be healthy and would like to eat better. Just like most smokers want to quit, even if they make fun of lung cancer.

To me, saying that people do not want to be healthy (including eating good things) is like saying modern children do not want to play outside anymore. It is true that children today mostly play inside and partially would even have to learn what to do outside by now, but the big underlying problem for that is not failings of the children but lack of options outside and abundance of marketed options inside.

To solve the problem, the conditions have to be changed. That is why I often feel that the argument of culture is a redundancy. Culture usually changes when conditions change.
 

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There are people, all over the world (usually men) who love to make it a thing that they eat some crazy double whoppers that induce diabetes. And I know that American marketing for these products is very strong. But I do think that even these people deep down want to have a healthy body.
Well yeah, that wasn't my contention. I agree everyone wants to be fit. It was the first part: "Everyone wants to eat healthy" I was disagreeing with. No one wants to eat healthy because there's nothing healthy that tastes as good as a double bacon cheeseburger (my mouth is watering at the thought. I know what's for lunch). They CHOOSE to eat healthy. And in my experience, with the health nuts I've met, they complain about how sodas are "too sweet" for them when they taste them, sticking to their seltzer waters and the like. They got this way through determination and habit.

For myself, the attraction from the opposite sex and the good feeling I'd get from eating healthier isn't strong enough of a deterant to make me change my eating habits. I'd start working out (and sometimes I do for a few months on end) before I change my eating habits. Which isn't enough.
 

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The "high margins" thing especially plays a role with sugar. Sugary products often have very high win margins (as far as sweets and sodas go) and sugar can help to make products cheaper (because you can make bad things taste good). As a bonus, sugar is also addictive. Why would the food industry not use high amounts of sugar if you can make a product cheaper and more addictive with it? They would only stop if they are strongly disincentivized. I do think these regulations can work if they are done right. At least the sugar levy that UK uses did work.

I think stress and culture go hand in hand. Of course, there are places poorer than the US that are less obese, but are these places equally "out of time" as the US is? If we are talking a third world country that has stay-at-home mothers and grandma's that cook with fresh ingredients they got from the village market, then this is a very different environment to a household in the US with two earners. Of course, what people traditionally eat does play a role. But the food industry has it way easier to sell unhealthy "stress food" to overstressed people. Let's be honest here, when I am stressed, I also drink a lot of soda and would opt to eat s th that makes my brain do happy things. I am less likely to put in effort to cook a balanced meal. If my grandma who lives with us cooked something healthy for me and gives me a little chocolate against the stress, that is way more healthy and I would definitely rather have that, but that is not what people in the US (or many other first world countries) can usually get.

I like the Nutri score because it does work when one takes the behavior of normal people into account. There have been many longterm studies in France about their Nutri score system and what they found was that the Nutri score mostly had an effect on comparative food. As in: People who want to buy a softdrink would rather take one with a D than an E. People who wanted to buy Pizza would rather take B than C. And so on. The balance of their diet is independent from the amount of sugar, salt and unsaturized fat they ingest. So of course you might still eat unhealthy if you eat products with a good Nutri score, but the Nutri score does not make that more likely. Instead, the Nutri score makes it easier for consumers to decide which products are rich on things that can lead to health problems even in a balanced diet. And once they are informed about this, they tend to take better decisions when choosing their food. For example, it makes it harder for the industry to pitch high sugar flakes and fruit juice as healthy breakfast options when these products are deep red on the counter. Of course, a Nutri score would have take nonsugar sweeteners into account, too, but even if it is just sugar/fat/salt/protein/fiber it would already be really helpful.
I am not sure of where you are getting your food industry insights but the idea of sugar being cheap is not exactly accurate. In practice this falls more into an "it depends". If you look at a kg of sugar at the industrial level you might be looking at 30 cents, 45 cents, 1.50 depending on the type of sugar (and then you adjust for the sweetness levels in different types of sugar). But even with it's apparent low cost sugar in practice needs pretty high dosages. Back in the day soda type drinks had about 10% sugar (give or take 1-2% to account for preferences by country). It's not strange for a cookie to be about 30%-40% sugar. Ice cream? Also about 30-40% (can be less but it can affect mouthfeel). Sugar looks cheap on paper but if it's more than 10% of your end product it's generally going to weight pretty heavily on your production cost. There's also the consideration of which stage of the supply chain you are looking at. The ones with the higher margin usually are the ones that sell to end consumers, not so much the manufacturers who are in an insanely competitive market.

As a sidenote, this also plays into how eager the food industry was to accept artificial sweeteners. A kg of a sweetener can replace hundreds of kg of sugar, probably more. This came with savings in transport and storage, specially for the beverage industry. In other products it's a tad more complicated because you can't just take out 30% of your product's bulk and get something edible, you need something non sugar to replace that bulk (and other wonderful functionalities that sugar provides). These type of product are not necessarily cheaper since what takes the space of sugar might not be cheaper.


Sure, I did say I didn't buy it THAT much, not that it isn't a factor at all. But I would still emphasize that the core issue here is simply that the stuff people are used to eating and their go to foods don't really add up to healthy diets. This just shouldn't be something people think too much about. Thinking about it is simply nerve wrecking for folk while at the same time you should absolutely think about it if you are obese because of the imminent health hazards coming your way along with your body working against you following weight loss.

I don't doubt at all that when you have a nutri score system consumers will lean toward the products with lots of green labels. You are putting red flags on food, of course people will react to this. My argument on this end is something like "people eating stuff with green labels on it is not necessarily desirable or helpful to the overall issue".

As a personal note, I absolutely loathe that in a variety of places sodas are sold with all the green labels (no sugar, salt or fat added). It's idiotic when at this point in time were are barely beginning to understand the long term effects of artificial sweeteners (and i am pretty even that is optimistic). If I am going to indulge I'd rather risk it with fat, sugar and salt than the alternatives. Though even with that rationalization I also hate that my monkey brain still screams danger when seeing those red labels (see? I know in my bones that these labels affect behavior).

As for "The balance of their diet is independent from the amount of sugar, salt and unsaturized fat they ingest."... I don't know what that means or how that makes sense.
 

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Well yeah, that wasn't my contention. I agree everyone wants to be fit. It was the first part: "Everyone wants to eat healthy" I was disagreeing with. No one wants to eat healthy because there's nothing healthy that tastes as good as a double bacon cheeseburger (my mouth is watering at the thought. I know what's for lunch). They CHOOSE to eat healthy. And in my experience, with the health nuts I've met, they complain about how sodas are "too sweet" for them when they taste them, sticking to their seltzer waters and the like. They got this way through determination and habit.

For myself, the attraction from the opposite sex and the good feeling I'd get from eating healthier isn't strong enough of a deterant to make me change my eating habits. I'd start working out (and sometimes I do for a few months on end) before I change my eating habits. Which isn't enough.
It is definitely true everyone wants to eat tasty. Tho I am not sold on unhealthy being tastier. At least for me, I have ate fast food exclusively for roughly half a year of my life and now do not eat fast food or highly processed (besides occasional soda) at all since like 5 years. I wouldnt say that the "mouthwatering" is dependent on health level for me. I would enjoy some good burger, but there are definitely healthy pasta or rice dishes that make my mouth water just as much. I do not have to restrain myself from eating fastfood (it is not a discipline thing for me), it was a question of exchanging things I need with healthier options. For example, I usually drink coffee instead of coke. Both tastes well, one is healthier, so I do that. Both is addictive for me, but one is better. Same for stuff like flakes. I used to buy highly processed flakes with chocolate and stuff in it. Now I buy whole grain millet and put fruit in it. It is just as tasty, but better for me. And after doing that, usually body gives the feedback of feeling better than with unhealthy food, at least for me.

Habit is definitely a factor here, in both ways. You eat what you are used to. When someone is used to having a nice fruit and vegetable bowl as a treat, they will see it as a treat. When someone is used to destress with chocolate, they will. Unhealthy food is physically addictive, but it is the industry who claims that it is also inherently tasty or tastier (as a strategy to keep it as a "treat" in the minds of consumers).
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I don't doubt at all that when you have a nutri score system consumers will lean toward the products with lots of green labels. You are putting red flags on food, of course people will react to this. My argument on this end is something like "people eating stuff with green labels on it is not necessarily desirable or helpful to the overall issue".
Not necessarily, but in practice, studies show that the Nutri score is very helpful. This study for example examined how people who struggled with cardivascular disease were effected by the Nutri Score: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36038180/

The result was that they opted for lower calorie and lower saturated fatty acids. Theoretically, of course, you can still eat unhealthy while having a low nutri score (for example if you eat very onesided), but (and that is what I mean with the passage you asked about) there is no evidence that the Nutri score makes that more likely in practice. In practice, very broadly, if people eat less sugar and saturated fatty acids, there is are many chronic diseases that they are less likely to have. The D ranked pizza they might stop eating is unlikely to be their only source of a critical vitamin.

Artificial sweeteners are definitely a big problem, but imo it would make more sense to adjust the nutri score to include that than to not commit to a good concept because of that special case. As far as most food sources go, the Nutri score does seem to work the way it is intended to.
 

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Agreed. I spent a week in the Philippines and everyone there just looked like they were more lively and fit. Partially from all the walking and relying on public transportation making their lives less sedentary than in a lot of America cities (at least where I'm from. There's NO public transportation here). I know what to eat, and I know how to cook, but I know that more delicious food is faster, more readily available, and can be delivered so I can maintain my sedentary lifestyle of "no exercise outside of work and fighting on the internet." I had a high metabolism into my 30s so I had the physic of a bronze god. Now? All these Cherry Pepsis are making me look like a slob. If I could just cut out soda I could at least stop at this Dadbod state >.>
I cut soda from my life in my late teens or so. Though I didn't drink that much to begin with. For me it was a simple math issue. Drinking calories is the easiest way to maximize calorie intake. Back before artificial sweeteners your standard soda was 10% sugar which made for about 400 calories for the standard 500 ml size. You know what else has 400 calories? 2-ish scoops of ice cream, a reasonably sized brownie, a muffin. I won't go as far as saying these are healthy things to eat but, fuck, these at least have actual nutrients unlike soda (eggs, milk fat and protein...). Soda is just THAT stupid. Though now most soda is calorie free so my logic is "good riddance" over artificial sweeteners.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Not necessarily, but in practice, studies show that the Nutri score is very helpful. This study for example examined how people who struggled with cardivascular disease were effected by the Nutri Score: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36038180/

The result was that they opted for lower calorie and lower saturated fatty acids. Theoretically, of course, you can still eat unhealthy while having a low nutri score (for example if you eat very onesided), but (and that is what I mean with the passage you asked about) there is no evidence that the Nutri score makes that more likely in practice. In practice, very broadly, if people eat less sugar and saturated fatty acids, there is are many chronic diseases that they are less likely to have. The D ranked pizza they might stop eating is unlikely to be their only source of a critical vitamin.

Artificial sweeteners are definitely a big problem, but imo it would make more sense to adjust the nutri score to include that than to not commit to a good concept because of that special case. As far as most food sources go, the Nutri score does seem to work the way it is intended to.
That study simply says what I already mentioned, that the labeling leads to people consuming more green labels than red. I have zero doubt about the effectiveness of this labeling system in affecting consumer behavior. As I said, the issue is not specifically fat or sugar or whichever other specific ingredient, the issue is overall diet. Nutriscores simply can't tackle that, they are limited to the choices present at a supermarket between competing brands.

Ok, say you adjust the system for artificial sweeteners and you punish its use with either a yellow or red flag. For context, manufacturers usually desire green labels across the board but due to technical limitations will settle with yellow ones. Of course, it depends on the specific food product, it's not like red labels don't exist. But this is the general mindset. In practice the color that's applied depends on the dosage so first you'd have regulating bodies come up with acceptable levels for green, yellow and red labeling. Setting aside that artificial sweeteners already have minuscule dosage, to the best of my knowledge no one would even know what the aceptable dosages for each category are. The effects of these are unknow so far. They'd have to pull this out of their ass for every artificial sweetener currently out there and then for every new one that comes out over time (and there's new ones every now and then). With fat and sugar they can at least look a recommended daily dosages and stuff.

The alternative I guess would be to outright punish their presence with automatic yellow or red labels. This is entirely speculative of course but I present you two scenarios to consider:

1.- Consumers see the green label for sugar and a yellow label for artificial sweeteners.
2.- Consumers see the green label for sugar or even a fancy "no sugar" label with a red label for artificial sweeteners.

I'll leave it to you to ponder the consequences for either (at least in my head it all looks batshit for what its worth)

And then you have to get into the alternatives in the food industry to not only sugar but also fat (and salt though I think that's slightly less relevant). How much sense does it make for governing bodies to reward the use of these alternatives? Fats can be replaced by starches, gums, fibers, proteins, emulsifiers.... do you also punish those? how? Is this healthier? Are diets better because of this? Can you fit all of these into a label? Will people understand this (this one doesn't have to be rhetorical, anyone who claims that consumers actually understand nutri score and its implications is a liar).
 

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That study simply says what I already mentioned, that the labeling leads to people consuming more green labels than red. I have zero doubt about the effectiveness of this labeling system in affecting consumer behavior. As I said, the issue is not specifically fat or sugar or whichever other specific ingredient, the issue is overall diet. Nutriscores simply can't tackle that, they are limited to the choices present at a supermarket between competing brands.
But there is also evidence that people who adhere to a low nutriscore have less health issues: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(24)00173-X/fulltext

In this large prospective study among European adults, a higher risk of cardiovascular diseases (total and several subtypes) was observed in individuals consuming a diet with a lower nutritional value, as graded by the uNS-NPS score. This brings new evidence on the relevance of the updated nutrient profile underlying the Nutri-Score to characterize foods with a healthier nutrient profile.
The Nutriscore does not have to be hard science to be effective. On average, it IS about fat, sugar, carbs protein, fiber and salt. That is not an exhaustive list, but it is a list that lets you reliably decide whether on average a diet is more likely to lead to common health issues than another. And the Nutri Score is effective in informing consumers and by that changing their choices for the better.

It is not going to make everyone a healthnut, but if people save 10g of sugar per day in your food, it is making a significant difference. It also basically costs nothing and there is no evidence at all that it leads to worse consumer behavior on nutrients that it does not account for.
 

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"Bullied"...This buffoon's entire media presence being the punching bag of right wing media for being deemed "radical left" themselves. The "radical left" has zero purchase on the political landscape in this country, yet just like Democratic leadership in this last failure of an election he's obsessed with punching left and capitulating to neofascist corporate shitheels like Elon Musk. What is with this moron and that freak Ana Kasparian lately? Is it really just a money thing or is it LA brainrot or something?
 

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"Bullied"...This buffoon's entire media presence being the punching bag of right wing media for being deemed "radical left" themselves. The "radical left" has zero purchase on the political landscape in this country, yet just like Democratic leadership in this last failure of an election he's obsessed with punching left and capitulating to neofascist corporate shitheels like Elon Musk. What is with this moron and that freak Ana Kasparian lately? Is it really just a money thing or is it LA brainrot or something?
Damn. Half of me wants to shit on him for such an immediate, obvious grift. The other half wants to praise him for saying the shit I've been saying for over a year.

I'll stick to shitting on him if only because he's saying the right things (chill out Leftists) for the wrong reasons (money).
 

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Damn. Half of me wants to shit on him for such an immediate, obvious grift. The other half wants to praise him for saying the shit I've been saying for over a year.

I'll stick to shitting on him if only because he's saying the right things (chill out Leftists) for the wrong reasons (money).
And then you realize "chill out Leftists" is only said for the wrong reasons (money)
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Because if we're really talking about the kinds of things the progressive Left in this country advocates for, there's nothing there that's unpopular
 

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And then you realize "chill out Leftists" is only said for the wrong reasons (money)
Let's not go that far, lol. I wasn't getting paid by anyone to say that shit post October 7th.
 

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Biden could turn full anarchist and just pardon everybody lol.


Well, guess even in his anarchist clemency moment he still has corporate interests
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Let's not go that far, lol. I wasn't getting paid by anyone to say that shit post October 7th.
You were acting in defense of your preferred political candidate (and favorite streamer) in the face of the disastrous prospect of Trump winning again. It's somewhat understandable, but hopefully it's clear now that having that position didn't afford you anything. Pretty much every President has been wrong on that issue.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

As a personal note, I absolutely loathe that in a variety of places sodas are sold with all the green labels (no sugar, salt or fat added). It's idiotic when at this point in time were are barely beginning to understand the long term effects of artificial sweeteners (and i am pretty even that is optimistic). If I am going to indulge I'd rather risk it with fat, sugar and salt than the alternatives. Though even with that rationalization I also hate that my monkey brain still screams danger when seeing those red labels (see? I know in my bones that these labels affect behavior).
Is there new information in regard to this? Because I think in general, it's probably still preferred to almost certain diabetes and what not.
--- Double Post Merged, ---




I guess it's either this or channeling any sort of angry populist uprising towards trans people. homeless people, or immigrants. I guess it's nice that Democrats do see a point in differentiating themselves still.
 

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You were acting in defense of your preferred political candidate (and favorite streamer) in the face of the disastrous prospect of Trump winning again. It's somewhat understandable, but hopefully it's clear now that having that position didn't afford you anything. Pretty much every President has been wrong on that issue.
I mean, I didn't lose alone so there's no shame there. And no. The election is over, meaning we know exactly what people cared about this election, what they voted for, and why. You won't find a list out there with voters placing things like Gaza, LGBTQ Rights, Climate Change or Abortion near the top of the list. In fact, you'll see that the things most voters cared about above all else were the things Kamala (and shitlibs like me and Destiny) said was more important.

And even with her playing the game the right way she did worse than Trump in practically every damn demographic. To think that the one demographic that was gonna save her was the one that votes the least? No. I'm not entertaining that.

Unless what you mean is that she should've fought for Leftist policies because they're popular, instead of saying "she should appeal to Leftists". That sounds like pedantry on my behalf but I promise you they're a different thing. And it's a nigh-impossible balancing act.
 

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"Bullied"...This buffoon's entire media presence being the punching bag of right wing media for being deemed "radical left" themselves. The "radical left" has zero purchase on the political landscape in this country, yet just like Democratic leadership in this last failure of an election he's obsessed with punching left and capitulating to neofascist corporate shitheels like Elon Musk. What is with this moron and that freak Ana Kasparian lately? Is it really just a money thing or is it LA brainrot or something?
Everyone thinks caring about people makes you a radical left, it's ridiculous.



Well, guess even in his anarchist clemency moment he still has corporate interests
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



You were acting in defense of your preferred political candidate (and favorite streamer) in the face of the disastrous prospect of Trump winning again. It's somewhat understandable, but hopefully it's clear now that having that position didn't afford you anything. Pretty much every President has been wrong on that issue.
--- Double Post Merged, ---



Is there new information in regard to this? Because I think in general, it's probably still preferred to almost certain diabetes and what not.
--- Double Post Merged, ---




I guess it's either this or channeling any sort of angry populist uprising towards trans people. homeless people, or immigrants. I guess it's nice that Democrats do see a point in differentiating themselves still.
If the Dems lose the next few elections, what are the chances they'll blame everyone but themselves... again?

jfc
 

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Well, let's say it like this: If you actually care about people, you are very likely to become a left radical at some point.
 

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Well, let's say it like this: If you actually care about people, you are very likely to become a left radical at some point.
What if the people you care about are men? Particularly white men? Or Israeli citizens? What are you then?
 

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What if the people you care about are men? Particularly white men? Or Israeli citizens? What are you then?
If you ONLY care about them, you are something else. But I do care about Israelis and white men. I am really not the type who complains about not enough black people in media and then doesnt care about the white homeless man.

And god knows that I had my fair share of fights with some feminists when I thought they pitches discriminatory policies.
 

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If you ONLY care about them, you are something else. But I do care about Israelis and white men. I am really not the type who complains about not enough black people in media and then doesnt care about the white homeless man.
...hm.

I'll keep that in mind.

And god knows that I had my fair share of fights with some feminists when I thought they pitches discriminatory policies.
In that case, I'll ask you what I asked xi0 last month: what do you think is causing men to move further Right, and what can the Left do to correct it?
 

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My take on that might be a little hard to convey, but i will try.

I think that men drifting to the right is a reaction to the world becoming increasingly crazy (like many other problems). In a world in which young men are more and more unlikely to get respect, fame or other sources of selfworth both for social an economical reasons, it makes a lot of sense for them to value the things they are good at: Physical things and other forms of power-projection.

As a young man with nothing, something like the military or police force is appealing, because you look at a world that is breaking apart but at least you are strong and can do something about it (subsequently raising your selfworth and giving you a feeling of control). Republicans defend someone like Kyle Rittenhouse, Democrats attack him. I am definitely not a fan of Rittenhouse, but for people who take crime very seriously, they feel like democrats ask them to just accept crime or even violence. That is something hard to accept for many young men especially.

Someone like Trump has a promise in him, which is that you are allowed to use your physical abilities and other power sources to defend yourself, your loved ones and your country. Of course, Trump does not have the best interests of the people who vote for him in mind. But he does give the people who tend to be worried about physical assaults the freedom to use their destructive powers the way they see fit and gives them respect. That is very valuable when you are afraid and everything that democrats or other leftists would give you respect for is outside of your comfort zone.

In my opinion, to convince a young man of not joining a force that I find destructive, it is obvious that there needs to be an alternative healthy way for them to get that sense of control and to be able to contribute in ways that are inside his comfort zone. And there need to be ways to get respect as a man and not just for rejecting your masculinity.

The truth is that leftwing spaces often make men very uncomfortable (nonleft women too, but to a lesser degree). When I think of a young, marginalized man from the hood, even if he would be open for many leftwing causes, I do not see him handwaving instead of clapping with a group of funny-haired people who check-in about their feelings every time they meet up. Even if there is nothing inherently wrong with that, it is too cringe. And if he gets heated in a discussion, which is something men often do with each other without it being an issue, he will get told that there are speaking rules. There are good arguments for these speaking rules (exactly BECAUSE men often try to argue by raising their voice), but that is just not a setting that an actual marginalized man with masculine traits would ever feel comfortable in. And leftwing politics is led by people who DO feel comfortable in these spaces and who often thus have very little idea about how to properly communicate with these men or what to really offer them.

So my takeaway here is: you have two groups here that create spaces that they claim are for everyone, but which really are not. To get young men into a democratic (not democrat) kind of mindset, the basis of democracy would be to create a discussion space in which leftists do not start out by trying to call all shots about who may say what, but instead accept that they need to persuade, not shame or force young men to join a common cause. That is the first step to mutual respect.
 

kkck

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Is there new information in regard to this? Because I think in general, it's probably still preferred to almost certain diabetes and what not.
To my knowledge the debate about this is still ongoing. And it will likely go on for decades, studies concerning food are tricky over how difficult it is to isolate variables. Add to that changes to artificial sweeteners over the past several years (it also doesn't help that it's comically easy to google studies that have the exact opposite conclusion on pretty much any topic). Say, stevia off flavors have been substantially reduced or there just being plain new ones. Add to that a lot of the times the way to use them and get better flavor profiles is to mix them. I am also not aware of diabetes rates going down as artificial sweeteners have become more prevalent (or obesity or heart disease...). I'd also argue that the choice between artificial sweeteners and diabetes is fundamentally wrong, people shouldn't have diabetes with or without artificial sweeteners. A normal person can occasionally have unhealthy foods but still for the most part have a healthy diet.

Add to this, when you get to products other than flavored drinks you have to consider the ingredients that are used to cover for other functionality provided by sugar.
 
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