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GrySun

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That is not true. Trump supporters were louder in nonrepresentative polls, but focus group tests showed a win for clinton.
So which are the "important" polls you're referring to? Those that show her winning? So you're cherry picking your polls and calling all others wrong? Okay if that makes you happy. In the end, the polls following the debate will be the real indicator of who did better in the debate.

It isn't like he was solely responsible for the questions. The moderator was hardly biased. If anything, he wasn't forceful enough with telling him to stfu when it wasn't his time to speak. Trump was constantly on the mic while Clinton was talking, never displaying even a modicum amount of respect for the format. Followup questions tend to happen when the person is guilty of blabbering out as much specious and vacuous shit as Trump does, of course a moderator will inquire for clarification.
Just take a look at the questions he asked and the questions he didn't. He didn't touch any of the hard topics for Hillary(emails, benghazi etc.), not even some of her comments like the "deplorables basket". But he has no problems asking about Trump calling a woman fat? What are the standards here?
"hardly biased" LUL, you can't be serious.
 

kkck

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Yes, she didn't expect him to pass but he did, in which she gladly accepts (again, it isn't about her defending him itself) and then laughs about how she could use it despite knowing it doesn't work (which also implies she knew he had in fact raped the girl or otherwise she had no reason to suspect it failed).

And yes, by the law the evidence that remained was legitimately inadmissible, I'm not arguing about that. To laugh over how she could get an expert to practically throw the remnants away because somehow the rest of it disappeared of what would have proven the man's absolute guilt is disgusting (as today she calls it "sad"). Her reactions, her words, her laughter—all of it is what I am talking about. And that's what my original comment brought it up for. Her horrible character flaws that are ignored by so many yet those same people will gladly talk their tongues out of their heads concerning the flaws of Trump/any other Republican.

The information in your link cannot be considered truth though, not with just her words. She only has her recent word that she was forced to defend him and audio which does not, in anyway, suggest it was forced upon her but instead points out that she was accepting it as a personal favor. And again, it isn't about her defending him but her lying about all of this stuff and laughing about it and saying she's pro-woman today or that she never said or did so and so.
I mean, her knowing it does not work came after the test, at least if we go by her words. And event then, it's not like she herself could have dismissed that test if she had wanted to. What's she supposed to do? At the time, and even now, polygraphs were regarded as actual valid evidence. So was she supposed to say she didn't believe the results of the polygraph test on the grounds that she didn't believe her client? That is not how this works at all...

As for the laughter... isn't that the worst possible explanation out of many? She laughed at how the polygraph failed. She laughed at how the evidence was mishandled.... The absolute worst case here is that such a thing is inappropriate but only that. And as far as the remnants of the evidence, the issue seems to be how the prosecution or whoever was in charge handled it. That is not hillary's doing... You are making it sound as if she hid or altered evidence herself even though none of the information around even vaguely supports that idea to protect a guy she clearly did not even want to defend. There is plenty to criticize of clinton but actually reading on this does not suggest anything about her. Other than she did her duty and defended the guy as she should have...

There is also politifact's review of the case if you don't like factcheck..
 

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I mean, her knowing it does not work came after the test, at least if we go by her words. And event then, it's not like she herself could have dismissed that test if she had wanted to. What's she supposed to do? At the time, and even now, polygraphs were regarded as actual valid evidence. So was she supposed to say she didn't believe the results of the polygraph test on the grounds that she didn't believe her client? That is not how this works at all...

As for the laughter... isn't that the worst possible explanation out of many? She laughed at how the polygraph failed. She laughed at how the evidence was mishandled.... The absolute worst case here is that such a thing is inappropriate but only that. And as far as the remnants of the evidence, the issue seems to be how the prosecution or whoever was in charge handled it. That is not hillary's doing... You are making it sound as if she hid or altered evidence herself even though none of the information around even vaguely supports that idea to protect a guy she clearly did not even want to defend. There is plenty to criticize of clinton but actually reading on this does not suggest anything about her. Other than she did her duty and defended the guy as she should have...

There is also politifact's review of the case if you don't like factcheck..
She shouldn't laugh over a child rapist getting off because of a successful run at a polygraph during an interview. You do not hear any reason to suspect she is laughing about the credibility of the polygraph itself. You only hear her laughing about how she had used it/how it had turned out. Either way though she is laughing about how an unreliable test such as the polygraph helped her bring down the charges on a man she knew to be rapist.

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest she herself had something to do with the missing piece of evidence (though either way the missing evidence is incredibly convenient), but find her laughing about it all is horrible and indecent of her. And again, it isn't about her doing the actual job of defending the rapist, it is how she behaviored, what she said and what she did concerning the case afterward. Where was her class? Her consideration of the victim? Or even her professionalism? It was inappropriate at the least and disgusting and wrong at the most—and that isn't even bringing up the subject of how easy it is for her to lie to people and for people to believe it because she said it.

The point of mentioning any of this originally was to point out how she is, in fact, an indecent liar who manipulates and does as she pleases in order to get ahead or get out of her responsibilities. How can anyone with their head on straight ever want to elect someone like her as our president?

Oh and it isn't that I dislike those sites, honest, it is just they don't actually go into depth discussing the documents, the audio, the lies (such as claiming she never said the victim sought out older men or was mentally and emotionally unstable when she did) or all of the inconsistencies of what happened and what she now claims. I'll look through the new link right now though to see what they have to say or what they dug up.
 

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She shouldn't laugh over a child rapist getting off because of a successful run at a polygraph during an interview. You do not hear any reason to suspect she is laughing about the credibility of the polygraph itself. You only hear her laughing about how she had used it/how it had turned out. Either way though she is laughing about how an unreliable test such as the polygraph helped her bring down the charges on a man she knew to be rapist.

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest she herself had something to do with the missing piece of evidence (though either way the missing evidence is incredibly convenient), but find her laughing about it all is horrible and indecent of her. And again, it isn't about her doing the actual job of defending the rapist, it is how she behaviored, what she said and what she did concerning the case afterward. Where was her class? Her consideration of the victim? Or even her professionalism? It was inappropriate at the least and disgusting and wrong at the most—and that isn't even bringing up the subject of how easy it is for her to lie to people and for people to believe it because she said it.

The point of mentioning any of this originally was to point out how she is, in fact, an indecent liar who manipulates and does as she pleases in order to get ahead or get out of her responsibilities. How can anyone with their head on straight ever want to elect someone like her as our president?

Oh and it isn't that I dislike those sites, honest, it is just they don't actually go into depth discussing the documents, the audio, the lies (such as claiming she never said the victim sought out older men or was mentally and emotionally unstable when she did) or all of the inconsistencies of what happened and what she now claims. I'll look through the new link right now though to see what they have to say or what they dug up.
To me it still seems like the absolute worst interpretation of that. People laugh at inappropriate times for a number of different reasons all the time. This doesn't prove she was out to get a pedophile free to roam the streets.

What is up with the bold part? You say you did not suggest clinton had a part in the missing piece of evidence but it is incredibly convenient. So you weren;t suggesting it then but are mildly suggesting it now? Come on... Ultimately this as an issue seems to have about as little legitimacy as the bhenazzi thing (and I say "about" because there is legitimate cringe here whereas bhengazzi is all sorts of outright idiotic).

Well, both articles mention the inconsistencies. And it is a 40 year old case, it perfectly reasonable that she did, simply, misremembered things. As far as the "lies", wouldn't that be just stuff the person she was defending said? I am not sure of the technicalities of making affidavits in a case go but if that is what the guy she was defending was saying then the situation is nothing like you are portraying it as.
 

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To me it still seems like the absolute worst interpretation of that. People laugh at inappropriate times for a number of different reasons all the time. This doesn't prove she was out to get a pedophile free to roam the streets.

What is up with the bold part? You say you did not suggest clinton had a part in the missing piece of evidence but it is incredibly convenient. So you weren;t suggesting it then but are mildly suggesting it now? Come on... Ultimately this as an issue seems to have about as little legitimacy as the bhenazzi thing (and I say "about" because there is legitimate cringe here whereas bhengazzi is all sorts of outright idiotic).

Well, both articles mention the inconsistencies. And it is a 40 year old case, it perfectly reasonable that she did, simply, misremembered things. As far as the "lies", wouldn't that be just stuff the person she was defending said? I am not sure of the technicalities of making affidavits in a case go but if that is what the guy she was defending was saying then the situation is nothing like you are portraying it as.
That's certainly true and I understand that people will laugh in inappropriate times, but this is different. Well anyway, this is about how she conducted herself during, after and recently concerning the trial and how that behavior is not suitable in someone running for POTUS and that it deserves as much attention as Trump's remarks get.

I'm sorry, I guess I worded myself wrong. I'm simply saying the evidence disappearing is convenient. Whether or not she had a hand in it, you cannot deny it just disappearing right when it is needed by both parties isn't convenient for her case.

The question of her laughing about this and lying about it (and much more) should be very legitimate to you since she's running for POTUS. And if I may ask it, how is Benghazi "idiotic"? Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

There is a difference from "misremembering things" and changing what she said more than once and keep rolling with it when evidence exists to prove it isn't the truth. That's a lie. And oh, no, it is what she as a lawyer was recommending as evidence for the trial. Did you read the papers I linked to a few replies back underneath the video? It details a document she drafted as the defendant's lawyer. It isn't what the defendant said or what the victim said, but what she said and did. Though the discussion of the affidavit isn't really the important issue here, it is the fact that she lied about having said any of it or pushed for any of it when she did.

(I'm sorry for any errors in this post, I'm writing on a tablet. I also wanted to say thank you for keeping the discussion civil! I appreciate it a lot.)
 

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Fivethirtyeight generally does an excellent job at crunching numbers, as a source they are very reliable. What metapoll specifically are you looking at?
Oh, i looked more into that site, and you are right. They actually do a pretty good job because they take swing states into account.
Let's see how those polls will react once the reliable polls about the debate come out.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Well, she's gonna have to in order to get more voters. She barely has any trust from a lot of citizens, especially from those that are settling for her. Hillary needs to lock in those votes as well. Winning debates isn't enough, Trump has too much steam and idiotic supporters that will continue to support him. Hillary is not in a good place, especially against a dunce like Trump.
I think winning debates is exactly the thing she needs to focus on now, because that is the thing that will sway the undecided voters. the first one was a good step into the right direction.
Aside from the usual campaigning that she does, there is not a whole lot more she can and should do.
Yes, because it was politically convenient for her to do so when she did it. This is the most common criticism made of her. Regardless of what she may or may not have believed personally, she chose not to support marriage equality for a reason.

And "unions" are not the same. Equality isn't getting called something other than a married couple because the old couple down the street might have their jimmies rustled by a husband having a husband (and even children, god forbid!).

I personally wasn't suggesting that she is homophobic, but she sided with homophobic people on that issue and for apparently the same reasons. There really isn't that much nuance to this issue for me honestly.
I think her reasoning was fine and not in the least homophobic, nor siding with those who are.
The reasoning was that a marriage is a term which comes from religion, thus tradition, and that this term can be protected, while a homosexual has the same rights in front of the law for a union. Thus there is a legal concept called union which both homosexuals and heterosexuals can have, and marriage is something informal which goes into the realm of church or religion.
Naturally, you can have another opinion about that, and she did change her stance.

But i have a hard time processing that someone who fought her whole life for homosexual rights can be called a homophobe for a harmless stance like that.
She even didnt advocate against homosexual marriage, she simply said it should be decided by the different states whether it is called marriage or whether it is just a legal equivalent union.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
And about clinton:


Honestly, her laugh was not appropriate, but you gotta take into account that she is a lawyer.
If you are a lawyer, you laugh about stuff like that.
Much like doctors often have a very black humour.
If it was caught on tape what nurses and doctors sometimes say about patients, nobody would go to hospitals anymore.
They are still mostly decent medical personell which behind the surface cares for what they do.
 

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Oh, i looked more into that site, and you are right. They actually do a pretty good job because they take swing states into account.
Let's see how those polls will react once the reliable polls about the debate come out.
See? This made for an interesting read:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-could-the-polls-be-missing/

They don't reach anything definitive but it still made for an interesting read.

And they do update polls daily (though this is more a forecast than a poll):
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

They have clinton at 58% chance of winning but trump having 42% chance of winning is not exactly comforting. And clinton desperately needs to recover some ground in florida, ohio and Pennsylvania...

In the interview they make the point that trump and clinton have basically alternated the months they get ahead. May was for trump, june for clinton, july for trump, august for clinton, september has clearly been or trump... If this remains as is then perhaps clinton will regain some ground this month.

And perhaps there is some ground for cautious optimism:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features...lls-suggest-a-post-debate-bounce-for-clinton/
 

M3J

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@ the underlined: Oh, you are one of those people. :errr

Short version of the tape: she helped plea down the man's sentence and laughed about the creditability of the polygraph her defendant took, as well as laughing about how evidence was "misplaced" and all that was left was not acceptable to be tested.

(other things you might be interested to read and this)



Unless she very well knew the man was lying, why else laugh about its creditability? She even laughed about getting a forensics expert to dismiss the admissibility of evidence (bloody underwear) as the pieces that were to be tested got "misplaced" in the crime lab—which to this day she acknowledges—and all they had left was remnants that could not be admissible (which she laughed about too) in court. She even lied about taking the case. First she claimed she didn't have a choice but audio evidence heavily suggests she did it as a personal favor (in her own words).

You can find interviews from 2014 where she discusses the case again, and says it is "sad" because they "did have evidence but it got misplaced". She knew very well the man lied. So much for being an advocate of women.
someone who likes a good source that's not biased or bullshit? Why yes, yes I am.

The video and links are from biased sources.... But anyway, I read somewhere where Hillary said she was not happy about taking on the case and did not want to. I forgot if it's the same, but she said she made a man plead guilty or some sort of shit. Where is this evidence and is it the same across most sources or just sources against Hillary?

But yeah, she's not a true feminist.

You can do "gun control" without saying no more guns. However my point in this case is that it wouldn't really do much. Most of the cases of gun control that have worked, as far as I can tell anyways, specifically involve taking hard stances against guns being a thing at all. And if you make it harder for people in general to get guns then you are basically saying no more guns. The sad reality is that the problem here are ultimately guns themselves. Just look at what little stats there are. Merely having a gun is a strong indicator of likelihood of being involved in gun violence. And where do you suppose black market guns come from?
Didn't Australia and other countries still see some gun violence here and there? And how are you saying no more guns if you make it harder for people to get guns? All that means is that people won't get guns as quickly or without a thorough background check.

Many gun lovers will call you a dumbass for stating guns are the problem instead of blaming the shooters. Gotta have a better argument than that.
I think winning debates is exactly the thing she needs to focus on now, because that is the thing that will sway the undecided voters. the first one was a good step into the right direction.
Aside from the usual campaigning that she does, there is not a whole lot more she can and should do.
Winning debates alone won't do much for her, unless she can make Trump say things that lose him support. You give people too much credit.

she has to work on improving her rep and how she's seen. That's literally the main thing hurting her and why Trump is so dangerous.
 

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Winning debates alone won't do much for her, unless she can make Trump say things that lose him support. You give people too much credit.

she has to work on improving her rep and how she's seen. That's literally the main thing hurting her and why Trump is so dangerous.
But it is exactly only the people who we can give credit that she has to appeal to then.
People who look at someone in a debate at say 'well i dont care much about politics but that is the better option'.

Clinton did exactly the right thing by mentioning her working class father and making trump say that he is proud to pay no tax. That speaks to exactly the voter group she needs to appeal to right now.
 

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someone who likes a good source that's not biased or bullshit? Why yes, yes I am.

The video and links are from biased sources.... But anyway, I read somewhere where Hillary said she was not happy about taking on the case and did not want to. I forgot if it's the same, but she said she made a man plead guilty or some sort of shit. Where is this evidence and is it the same across most sources or just sources against Hillary?

But yeah, she's not a true feminist.
No, I meant the kind that assumes all conservative sources are biased because it doesn't agree with his political alignment or preferences. I think it would have been easier if you asked for sources and specifically said "no conservative sources at all".

Would it matter though if it was posted on Fox or to a user on youtube called"SuperConservative20124823" (who doesn't exist obviously, just making a point)? It doesn't change what she said in the audio, does it? And yes, we (@kkck and I) were discussing earlier her comments that she wasn't pleased with taking the case. That's her most recent statement on the matter, which she also said she was forced into it, yet nothing but her word exists to prove that while audio exists of her heavily suggesting she accepted it as a favor.

What evidence are you referring to? The video itself? And I have no recollection of her talking about a case where she forced a man to plead guilty [to rape?] but that's what a lot of people incorrectly believe she did in this case (unaware she was defending the rapist) I brought up so perhaps that is it?
 

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The video and links are from biased sources.... But anyway, I read somewhere where Hillary said she was not happy about taking on the case and did not want to. I forgot if it's the same, but she said she made a man plead guilty or some sort of shit. Where is this evidence and is it the same across most sources or just sources against Hillary?

But yeah, she's not a true feminist.

Didn't Australia and other countries still see some gun violence here and there? And how are you saying no more guns if you make it harder for people to get guns? All that means is that people won't get guns as quickly or without a thorough background check.

Many gun lovers will call you a dumbass for stating guns are the problem instead of blaming the shooters. Gotta have a better argument than that.
Lawyers asking clients to plead guilty at the US is not that weird an occurrence. It's extremely like that if such a thing did happen it's not much about Hillary being a psychopath as it is because the legal system has some serious issues.

And also worth noting, in regards to the rape case... While she was doing that case she was also a part in setting up one of the first rape hotlines in that state or something. So the actual context in this case is that hillary took a case she did not want because she kinda had to, did exactly the work she was supposed to do in the exact way she was supposed to do it and helped set up a date hotline or whatever.

Australia did the whole "taking guns away" thing specifically in response to a mass shooting. And hasn't had one since. Australia also has one of the lowest gun violence rates in the world.

I found this chart regarding their issues:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths

Australia always had relatively low numbers but it seems they have settled at an average of 230 gun deaths per year. Their gun buyback program started in 1996. And you see a pretty large dip in gun deaths exactly then. And then a sustained decrease over the next decade and settled at 230 deaths a year on average.

Also note I wrote gun control in quotations.... I meant that in the sense that it wasn't real gun control. Sarcastically if you will. What you are suggesting with background checks is at best, a start....

Well, yeah, they probably would. So?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
No, I meant the kind that assumes all conservative sources are biased because it doesn't agree with his political alignment or preferences. I think it would have been easier if you asked for sources and specifically said "no conservative sources at all".

Would it matter though if it was posted on Fox or to a user on youtube called"SuperConservative20124823" (who doesn't exist obviously, just making a point)? It doesn't change what she said in the audio, does it? And yes, we (@kkck and I) were discussing earlier her comments that she wasn't pleased with taking the case. That's her most recent statement on the matter, which she also said she was forced into it, yet nothing but her word exists to prove that while audio exists of her heavily suggesting she accepted it as a favor.

What evidence are you referring to? The video itself? And I have no recollection of her talking about a case where she forced a man to plead guilty [to rape?] but that's what a lot of people incorrectly believe she did in this case (unaware she was defending the rapist) I brought up so perhaps that is it?
Honestly, I would agree with the notion that conservative sources are more biased. Or possibly have an immunity to facts. Just look at fox news. Well, that is definitely the easiest example but it still gives a pretty good idea of what conservative sources are like. Take views on immigration for instance. If you ask fox news then what you get is that they basically agree with trump. But if you look at the actual statistics which are available what you see is that immigrants are less likely to get arrested than the average US citizen. And on top of that it is each subsequent generation that gets more violent and more prone to be arrested. Basically, being at the US made them more violent. And the same thing applies for a number of issues. Take violence against black people for instance. "conservative" sources will complete ignore the rates at which black people get arrested or will just say they deserve it for being more violent. Other sources follow similar patterns.... Take Breibart (though I am willing to not consider that conservative), the tax foundation thinktank (which is basically propaganda for any and all taxes being more evil than the worst possible cartoon of hillary clinton). Of course, you can find reliable conservative sources (say, wall street journal) but those don't seem to be the more representative ones nowadays.

As for the video you posted; well, it does not seem to have been edited so it's contents are at large factual. However I would argue the way it is presented is indeed biased. The title is " Hillary clinton laughs at...." which basically sets the viewer on the most extreme interpretation of something that is ultimately not even remotely as damming as it is made out to be, at worst it is cringe-worthy. Read the video description and its... well.
 

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Aaaaand they've done it. Congress overturned the vetoed 9/11 Bill that allows Families to sue Saudi Arabia.
 

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I mean, gun control actually is about saying in no uncertain terms "no more guns" and it is actually about getting rid of the second amendment. Just look at what other countries have done here. England makes it pretty hard to get guns, if you can get one at all. And even the police does not have guns. Take japan. You can technically own a gun for hunting but even then you have to regularly prove your sanity. Take australia, the government literally went for everyones guns. Now, obviously this is not possible at the US at the moment (I still remember a class I took when in my freshman year and I was the only one that never raised his hand when the teacher asked who had fired a gun) but I don't think it is accurate to say this will never happen. In the past I have given sources that actually make the point that as it is most folk at the US actually want more gun control. It's only the republican party that does actively fights this even though republicans actually want at least background checks. And that is a start at least. It's a shame congress has blocked any gun violence research, if reliable data existed on US specific problems it would be easier to have a more informed opinion and not just just at what other countries do....
I mean gun control in the context of our country. Repealing a constitutional amendment isn't one of those run-of-the-mill procedural things that congress does on a regular basis.

I personally think that the concept of a "social contract" allows for the government to have more of a say in regards to gun ownership, but it also would never permit the banning of all firearms. That's more of a pipedream than anything else. Such a thing would require some sort of revolution or something.

But despite my position on this, I think there is some stuff from the "right" that is at least somewhat compelling in regards to the issue. Recently, there's the bit about the Democratically-controlled senate shooting down gun legislation recently for the sake of election campaigns because too many Republicans were in favor of them (I need more information about this specifically though). There's also legislation like Project Exile, that even the NRA themselves endorsed, but was admonished or ignored by the left due to it "disproportionately" effecting minority groups. But the law did appear to work in some cities here where they used it...so I'm not sure what to make of it.

Well, I am not as familiar with elizabeth warren as with clinton but maybe she simply is funnier than clinton? I don't really have enough information on her to make an informed opinion. But regardless of that I do think it is easy to make a case that clinton is held at a different standard than everyone else and that republicans have succesfully turned her into a cartoon villain through their smear campaigns.
It's not really about funny or not. I'm merely suggesting that I think her gender isn't as much of a factor in her likability levels as much as people like to say. Warren has consistently been a liberal female politician focused on consumer-advocate causes. It's just conjecture on my part, but I don't think Warren would be having the same issues Clinton has with certain demographics. Supporting her and just shouting sexism seems like virtue-signalling to me, existing merely to downplay the baggage she has.

What exactly do you mean when you say it isn't a binary choice? I mean, I get that technically there are 5 choices which are donald trump, hillary clinton, gary johnson (personally I would vote trump before libertarian though, what a fucking stupid party), jill stein and your favorite spot at your couch. But regardless of how annoying or how bad the candidate are it a fact that the next president is going to be either trump or hillary and that Jill and Gary have no more and no less than 0% chance of winning. In that regard, at least to me this seems pretty binary.

Ah, that explains it. Privilege is the problem as usual. :p
It's the principle of it really. Of course a third part candidate has no chance, but that's because the mainstream prefers it this way. It's more digestible and profitable. So unless either party can actually produce someone I would actually advocate for, I'm not going to be inclined to say that they must be voted for. I'll admittedly say that I would rather have Clinton elected than Trump, but that's Trump's fault for the most part.

Well if privilege was the main factor here, I'd be going against my own self interest and voting for Trump :derp

Just take a look at the questions he asked and the questions he didn't. He didn't touch any of the hard topics for Hillary(emails, benghazi etc.), not even some of her comments like the "deplorables basket". But he has no problems asking about Trump calling a woman fat? What are the standards here?
"hardly biased" LUL, you can't be serious.
But she did talk about the emails...? Regardless of bias or not, I don't think the debate went the way it seemed to go (for me), due to moderator bias. Lester Holt wasn't even forceful enough to wrangle them into staying on topic, but it seems with every election cycle people have given less of a fuck about that. It's about ratings, not a meaningful conversation. Trump blowing his stack is what people want to see. If people were actually interested in meaningful discussion, Trump and Clinton would have never been nominated in the first place and the format would be completely different. But neither the RNC or the DNC would agree to latter.

I think her reasoning was fine and not in the least homophobic, nor siding with those who are.
The reasoning was that a marriage is a term which comes from religion, thus tradition, and that this term can be protected, while a homosexual has the same rights in front of the law for a union. Thus there is a legal concept called union which both homosexuals and heterosexuals can have, and marriage is something informal which goes into the realm of church or religion.
Naturally, you can have another opinion about that, and she did change her stance.

But i have a hard time processing that someone who fought her whole life for homosexual rights can be called a homophobe for a harmless stance like that.
She even didnt advocate against homosexual marriage, she simply said it should be decided by the different states whether it is called marriage or whether it is just a legal equivalent union.
I never said calling her homophobic was 100% justified, I said she took the same position of those who were. And I would imagine she did for obvious political reasons. Otherwise, why change her mind about it? Unless we're supposed to think she was merely being a puppet for the majority position in her state on that single issue? Of course, she blames her voting for the Defense of Marriage act on some sort of "strategic" move to derail a constitutional amendment that never ended up happening...so...

Saying that it should be left up to the states is a typical cop-out. Since 1992, when have the Clintons been states-rights activists? At most, she said she wouldn't have tried to prevent it if New York decided to pass it. Again, I'm not saying she is a homophobe, I'm saying she lacked integrity on this issue. She was only concerned with maintaining the "popular" position here until it appeared to be politically inconvenient. It happens all of the time with politicians.

I'm sort of confused with you mentioning her fighting her entire life for homosexual rights. If that's the case, then why vote for the Defense of Marriage Act? If it wasn't for strict political reasons?

Civil Unions aren't and never were "equal". Marriage is a religious sacrament, but it is also a legally binding contract that doesn't need religion of any sort to exist.
 

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I never said calling her homophobic was 100% justified, I said she took the same position of those who were. And I would imagine she did for obvious political reasons. Otherwise, why change her mind about it? Unless we're supposed to think she was merely being a puppet for the majority position in her state on that single issue? Of course, she blames her voting for the Defense of Marriage act on some sort of "strategic" move to derail a constitutional amendment that never ended up happening...so...

Saying that it should be left up to the states is a typical cop-out. Since 1992, when have the Clintons been states-rights activists? At most, she said she wouldn't have tried to prevent it if New York decided to pass it. Again, I'm not saying she is a homophobe, I'm saying she lacked integrity on this issue. She was only concerned with maintaining the "popular" position here until it appeared to be politically inconvenient. It happens all of the time with politicians.

I'm sort of confused with you mentioning her fighting her entire life for homosexual rights. If that's the case, then why vote for the Defense of Marriage Act? If it wasn't for strict political reasons?
I don't think that clinton's position ever was one of homophobes. At least i wouldnt know that homophobes advocate for a legal equivalent gay union.
Every politician has to adjust himself to changing societies. Clinton was never openly against gay marriage per se. Not wanting to call something marriage and leaving it up to the state but having full legal equivalency is, in my opinion, not a bigot stance, even if i disagree.

As far as i followed her career, clinton was always a realist politician. She was always leaning to the left and working towards it where she saw a good chance, but also didnt push it when she thought it might create problems or frustration.
That can be called lack of integrity, but tbh, i find it smart. She wants gay people to have full rights but knows that many people have a problem with calling it marriage? She positions herself against calling it marriage but is for a legal equvalency.
She notices more and more people are for calling it marriage and much less people than before are opposed to it? She embraces that stance.
I really have no problem with that and think that is good politics. I understand why people feel otherwise, but i feel like that kind of idealism is actually harmful in politics.

What i want to express is: Whenever Clinton actually had a chance to improve the conditions of the homosexual community, she did.
She don#t ask don't tell is mocked now, but back then it was a good thing for many involved people.
Advocating legal equivalent unions was, similarly (when she first advocated for it, at least) a really important step.

When people from the left side hold this against her and say that she 'wants to deny sexual minorities their rights', then i find this quite ignorant of her career.
When i look at clinton from the stance of 'did she always do what she said', then i would have to call her a liar.
But when i look at clinton from the stance 'did she stand for a rational and liberal kind of politics in can support', then she really did that throughout her career.

Which is why i would definitely vote for her if i was american.
 

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Honestly, I would agree with the notion that conservative sources are more biased. Or possibly have an immunity to facts. Just look at fox news. Well, that is definitely the easiest example but it still gives a pretty good idea of what conservative sources are like. Take views on immigration for instance. If you ask fox news then what you get is that they basically agree with trump. But if you look at the actual statistics which are available what you see is that immigrants are less likely to get arrested than the average US citizen. And on top of that it is each subsequent generation that gets more violent and more prone to be arrested. Basically, being at the US made them more violent. And the same thing applies for a number of issues. Take violence against black people for instance. "conservative" sources will complete ignore the rates at which black people get arrested or will just say they deserve it for being more violent. Other sources follow similar patterns.... Take Breibart (though I am willing to not consider that conservative), the tax foundation thinktank (which is basically propaganda for any and all taxes being more evil than the worst possible cartoon of hillary clinton). Of course, you can find reliable conservative sources (say, wall street journal) but those don't seem to be the more representative ones nowadays.

As for the video you posted; well, it does not seem to have been edited so it's contents are at large factual. However I would argue the way it is presented is indeed biased. The title is " Hillary clinton laughs at...." which basically sets the viewer on the most extreme interpretation of something that is ultimately not even remotely as damming as it is made out to be, at worst it is cringe-worthy. Read the video description and its... well.
Well, honestly I wouldn't post anything from Fox (Breibart and the like are still Fox in my opinion) or CNN unless I was certain I could trust its contents (and that usually means a relatively simple story or article that they can't twist). I do not agree that conservative sources are usually biased (only really Fox News) as opposed to more liberal sources but I do agree the title of the video is presented in an obvious stance against Clinton. I figured that since they can't very well alter the audio it shouldn't matter that much. It was just inconveniently on a bad channel for me.
 

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So apparently trump plans to attack hillary on monica lewinski... Is that wise? It seems a combination of petty and irrelevant. And trump has had 3 marriages and his current wife is over 20 years younger than him. Not to mention that his first wife made some rapey points about trump before she agreed in court not to ever say that again. He is kinda setting himself up here. I wonder if he is stupid enough to yet again say you can't legally rape your wife (though that might have been his lawyer)....
 

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So apparently trump plans to attack hillary on monica lewinski... Is that wise? It seems a combination of petty and irrelevant. And trump has had 3 marriages and his current wife is over 20 years younger than him. Not to mention that his first wife made some rapey points about trump before she agreed in court not to ever say that again. He is kinda setting himself up here. I wonder if he is stupid enough to yet again say you can't legally rape your wife (though that might have been his lawyer)....
Wow lol, that's a long article.
I think he won't bring up the lewinski thing, but if he wants to go the extreme route, he will bring up that bill is a rapist and hillary knew about it.
Many reps believe that anyway, and since he is behind anyway, they might want to take that risk.
 

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I mean gun control in the context of our country. Repealing a constitutional amendment isn't one of those run-of-the-mill procedural things that congress does on a regular basis.

I personally think that the concept of a "social contract" allows for the government to have more of a say in regards to gun ownership, but it also would never permit the banning of all firearms. That's more of a pipedream than anything else. Such a thing would require some sort of revolution or something.

But despite my position on this, I think there is some stuff from the "right" that is at least somewhat compelling in regards to the issue. Recently, there's the bit about the Democratically-controlled senate shooting down gun legislation recently for the sake of election campaigns because too many Republicans were in favor of them (I need more information about this specifically though). There's also legislation like Project Exile, that even the NRA themselves endorsed, but was admonished or ignored by the left due to it "disproportionately" effecting minority groups. But the law did appear to work in some cities here where they used it...so I'm not sure what to make of it.


It's not really about funny or not. I'm merely suggesting that I think her gender isn't as much of a factor in her likability levels as much as people like to say. Warren has consistently been a liberal female politician focused on consumer-advocate causes. It's just conjecture on my part, but I don't think Warren would be having the same issues Clinton has with certain demographics. Supporting her and just shouting sexism seems like virtue-signalling to me, existing merely to downplay the baggage she has.


It's the principle of it really. Of course a third part candidate has no chance, but that's because the mainstream prefers it this way. It's more digestible and profitable. So unless either party can actually produce someone I would actually advocate for, I'm not going to be inclined to say that they must be voted for. I'll admittedly say that I would rather have Clinton elected than Trump, but that's Trump's fault for the most part.

Well if privilege was the main factor here, I'd be going against my own self interest and voting for Trump :derp
The context of the US is not relevant to the point I am making. My point is basically how gun control has worked and been implemented in other places. Of course, I am well aware of how hard it would be to change this. Though I would argue that ever harder than the constitutional amendment would be the deep rooted cultural change that would need to happen. But event that is perhaps not a pipe dream. Take same sex marriage. Ten years before it happened it would have been unconscionable for such a thing to happen. Granted it was a supreme court thing and a lot of people still oppose it though.

Well, warren at least has the benefit of not having a decades long smear campaign against her. I mean, just look at the controversies behind clinton. How many of those have anything to them? At least a several of them are every bit as hollow as Bhengazi. From what I can tell the absolute worst she has done is the email stuff and a couple of issues with her foundation but there is no proof of actual wrongdoing here. With that in mind, at least a part of her baggage is entirely made up. And her being involved in "scandals" has seriously hurt her image. Which is not to say she is perfect but most of what people take issue with aren't things or that big a deal. I would argue that just looking at her policies should be enough to see how imperfect she is ( I still take issue with her seemingly more aggressive stance on foreign policy and she is center in a few issues where she should be more progressive).

Well, it is fairly clear the 2 parties are pretty institutionalized and they have the means to protect themselves (say, the difficult 15% polling for debates). But the core of the issue is that people themselves aren't willing to vote otherwise. And it became too late to change that in this election a couple years ago anyways. And the issue is not even the presidency as a whole, other parties are barely represented in the in lower elected positions as far as I can tell. With that in mind, it's sort of laughable that a third party would have any honest aspirations at the presidency. Even if a third party candidate made it to the presidency, what would he do there? He'd be at odds with congress in general, his ability to get anything done would be highly uncertain. Just look at jimy carter, the guy was even a democrat outsider but merely that distance was a huge hindrance for him. Can you even imagine if Jill stein or Johnson won the white house and they had to get a democrat-republican congress to get anything done? It'd be a comedy... Sanders took a smart to this, reforming the democrat party is undeniably faster and better for his policies than just going in with a third party (and even then IMO he would at least at time struggle with getting democrat support). If people at the US want third parties they should start with voting for them for lesser positions than the presidency.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
http://whatdumbstuffdidtrumpdotoday.com/
And this gave me a laugh....
 

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But it is exactly only the people who we can give credit that she has to appeal to then.
People who look at someone in a debate at say 'well i dont care much about politics but that is the better option'.

Clinton did exactly the right thing by mentioning her working class father and making trump say that he is proud to pay no tax. That speaks to exactly the voter group she needs to appeal to right now.
How much lead did Hillary gain after the debate? I know she won over few undecided, but few is still too little for the stupidity Trump displayed. If they're undecided, it's likely because they don't see Hillary as trustworthy but don't think Trump is a good choice either. Hillary has to solve that problem if she wants to get an edge, she has to make herself look trustworthy no matter how unreliable she is. Until she does so, Trump has a decent chance of winning.

No it doesn't really speaks to them much. Hillary is still wealthy, making money off giving speeches at colleges, and got away with giving out confidential information and deleting those emails. A lot of her support likely comes from people being against Trump and not believing a third party has a chance. She is in trouble, even if she's in the lead for now, and she will continue to be in trouble unless she changes her image, which is extremely difficult for her. SHe even got criticized for smiling too much, at least online!

No, I meant the kind that assumes all conservative sources are biased because it doesn't agree with his political alignment or preferences. I think it would have been easier if you asked for sources and specifically said "no conservative sources at all".

Would it matter though if it was posted on Fox or to a user on youtube called"SuperConservative20124823" (who doesn't exist obviously, just making a point)? It doesn't change what she said in the audio, does it? And yes, we (@kkck and I) were discussing earlier her comments that she wasn't pleased with taking the case. That's her most recent statement on the matter, which she also said she was forced into it, yet nothing but her word exists to prove that while audio exists of her heavily suggesting she accepted it as a favor.

What evidence are you referring to? The video itself? And I have no recollection of her talking about a case where she forced a man to plead guilty [to rape?] but that's what a lot of people incorrectly believe she did in this case (unaware she was defending the rapist) I brought up so perhaps that is it?
Not all, but majority of the sources I've read were biased or bullshit, and some were still intent on saying Obama is a Muslim or born in Kenya or whatever not in the US. STILL. That doesn't sit well with me. And if I cared about the source agreeing with me or my alignment, I wouldn't have facepalmed at Think Progress claiming Trump called for Hillary's assassination. I don't know if they twisted the meaning or misunderstood, but Trump was saying that Hillary was dependent on guns to protect her, and that she should extend the gun control laws to her guards as well.

I'm willing to accept conservative sources if they're not biased or too biased. I read from conservative sources a lot, shockingly.

Audio can always be faked, though. Didn't republicans fake the Planned Parenthood videos to discredit them?

So apparently trump plans to attack hillary on monica lewinski... Is that wise? It seems a combination of petty and irrelevant. And trump has had 3 marriages and his current wife is over 20 years younger than him. Not to mention that his first wife made some rapey points about trump before she agreed in court not to ever say that again. He is kinda setting himself up here. I wonder if he is stupid enough to yet again say you can't legally rape your wife (though that might have been his lawyer)....
It is not wise, but it is a good move. THe current dumbass supporters aren't gonna waiver, and all it does is attract the undecided because they'll think Hillary is corrupt enough to let her husband freely assault women and let him get away with it, and they'll think that her husband's cheating ways is because of her/her ugliness or some shit. Only left wings and anti-Trump people care about Trump's issues, his supporters probably praise him or excuse him.

People conveniently ignore whatever they want to suit their needs. They supported Davis when she refused to marry two homosexuals due to religious beliefs, but doesn't the Bible also say divorces are bad, which she got a few of? They also ignore the violence and bigotry in the Bible while pointing out the Quran's.


You guys seem to underestimate how bad Hillary looks in the eyes of non-Hillary people and people who support her only because she's the lesser evil. Hell, one can argue she's being trounced by Drumpf even if she's leading in the polls, simply because Drumpf is too close when he shouldn't be.
 

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I don't think that clinton's position ever was one of homophobes. At least i wouldnt know that homophobes advocate for a legal equivalent gay union.
Every politician has to adjust himself to changing societies. Clinton was never openly against gay marriage per se. Not wanting to call something marriage and leaving it up to the state but having full legal equivalency is, in my opinion, not a bigot stance, even if i disagree.
It's not a stance advocating true equality either. Voting for the Defense of Marriage Act is not a pro-LGBT stance. If you're going to legitimately suggest that you're doing something for the sake of bargaining and compromising, then you can't necessarily say claim without objection that you've been an ally to LGBT causes your entire life either. When push came to shove, she voted against their cause. Her vote essentially meant that she thought the state in which you happen to live in is a more important factor than whether you're an American and have equality under the law or not. Now, does that mean she's a bigot? Her record otherwise suggests no. But I don't see how you can argue that it doesn't show a lack of integrity. That's the problem there for me.

The context of the US is not relevant to the point I am making. My point is basically how gun control has worked and been implemented in other places. Of course, I am well aware of how hard it would be to change this. Though I would argue that ever harder than the constitutional amendment would be the deep rooted cultural change that would need to happen. But event that is perhaps not a pipe dream. Take same sex marriage. Ten years before it happened it would have been unconscionable for such a thing to happen. Granted it was a supreme court thing and a lot of people still oppose it though.
I definitely get what you're saying here, but the thing is, the point of contention with marriage has no roots in the Bill of Rights. The mechanism by which it changes doesn't have the same standards. The Supreme Court essentially set a precedent by using their power of Judicial Review. A constitutional amendment doesn't happen without a super-majority in both the House and Senate. The people who were against marriage equality were religious people fighting a losing battle in an increasingly non-religious society. The gun debate has no roots like this. So while they both have cultural components, the foundation isn't the same.

Well, warren at least has the benefit of not having a decades long smear campaign against her.
Well, she has no controversy at all really (if anything, she has it among her own people for endorsing Clinton). Because she doesn't have a decades-long record pockmarked with controversy either. Warren is more clever and compelling to listen to as well. None of these things have anything to do with the fact that they're women. Unless you're buying the goods Clinton is selling in regards to "the vast right-wing conspiracy" comment?

Even if a third party candidate made it to the presidency, what would he do there? He'd be at odds with congress in general, his ability to get anything done would be highly uncertain.
Well, I think a third party candidate wouldn't be likely to get elected before winning more gubernatorial and congressional races eiither. But the RNC and DNC have a stranglehold on those positions as well.

Sanders took a smart to this, reforming the democrat party is undeniably faster and better for his policies than just going in with a third party (and even then IMO he would at least at time struggle with getting democrat support). If people at the US want third parties they should start with voting for them for lesser positions than the presidency.
Yes, they should (if the candidates are worthy of consideration). But it still doesn't change the fact that the two parties and the mainstream media have a monopoly on this, and they like their arrangement.

I think it remains to be seen what Sanders will do. It really sort of depends how the next administration goes.
 
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