American Politics

[kkck]

Why would he invade Iran tho? It is not like Iran can do anything to israel.
Trump is not Bush, pence is not cheney.
And there was no 9/11 and there probably wont be one in trump's term.

I really do not see it. Trump is first and foremost a businessman who in my opinion has two targets: Personal Ego and Money.
These targets are reached by twittering and by his tax proposals.

All the rest is to keep himself in power. Going after journalists, pandering to the people who are fit to keep him in power, fighting liberals, making goody goody with putin.
A war does not suit there. War means instability and that is not what he needs.

And i do not see anything forcing him to do it, israel is too strong to really be attacked.

Well, but what happens when iran gets nukes? Iran getting nukes is not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". The iran deal was supposed to delay that ten years. Now without it we are back to, what, a few years (I think this is an optimistic number though)? Sure, there has not been a 9/11, trump is not bush (he is worst) and pence is no cheney (no idea if pence is worst than cheney at least). And what then? Iran having even one nuke will invariably be seen as a problem. Israel will loose it's shit. Republicans will loose their shit over this. The rest of us will be understandably scared. Maybe I there is something I am missing about iran but a nation like that having a nuke (let alone nukes) is not a good thing. I mean, the best case scenario given the circumstances seems to be that iran gets nukes and absolutely no one does anything about it. As in, iran never even considers using it and the US and it's allies don't loose their shit over it. In any case, I cannot imagine iran having nuclear weapons (regardless of their capacity to fire them at their enemies, I have 0 knowledge on that topic though) and the world collectively responding "meh".

I agree in that those are trump's objectives. However trump will still have to respond somehow to iran getting nuclear weapons. And in that scenario, I wouldn't find it inconceivable that even the US left pushes for a war before Iran's nuclear capacity increases to the point where it is an even bigger threat.

 

[SharkBait]

I hope Trump really does do the decreased immigration from the terrorist nations and also build the wall. I just want to live in a safe country please.

I do like that he seems to be implementing policies to engage the carmakers and steel makers in his discussion of both increasing american jobs and in the building of the pipelines to increase American energy independence.

 

[shionoro]

Trump has pro-Israel policies. He is already considering shifting American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.


Well, if Iran restarts the nuclear program, then USA and Israel will feel threatened. That's why they would want to stop Iran from attaining nukes. An invasion is not out of question here. Iraq was Attacked because they were developing WMDs. So if they think Iran is trying to develop nukes, then why not invade them?

<If they would want that, they'd keep the current deal, plain and simple.
Iraq was attacked because Dick Cheney was a moron and wanted to play a geostrategical powergame which worked after 9/11.
The same is not true for Iran, and Iran is not a 'we go in without much trouble' kind of deal.
Iran is one of the two (the other being the saudis) mainplayers on the arab isles, you cannot just attack iran effortlessly.
A lot of americans would die for that, noone does that just because 'they feel threatened' or 'israel feels threatened'.
Iran would have to attack israel for that to be a real possibility imo, and they wont, because israel is stronger and has nukes (even if iran has too, it makes no sense at all).

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 25, 2017 ---

I hope Trump really does do the decreased immigration from the terrorist nations and also build the wall. I just want to live in a safe country please.

I do like that he seems to be implementing policies to engage the carmakers and steel makers in his discussion of both increasing american jobs and in the building of the pipelines to increase American energy independence.

If you want to live in a safer country ban guns pls.

 

[SharkBait]

If you want to live in a safer country ban guns pls.

Recreational items for pastimes can be banned only when automobiles are banned.

 

[shionoro]

Recreational items for pastimes can be banned only when automobiles are banned.

Okay, then syrian migrants only be banned if you ban christianity.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 25, 2017 ---

Well, but what happens when iran gets nukes? Iran getting nukes is not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". The iran deal was supposed to delay that ten years. Now without it we are back to, what, a few years (I think this is an optimistic number though)? Sure, there has not been a 9/11, trump is not bush (he is worst) and pence is no cheney (no idea if pence is worst than cheney at least). And what then? Iran having even one nuke will invariably be seen as a problem. Israel will loose it's shit. Republicans will loose their shit over this. The rest of us will be understandably scared. Maybe I there is something I am missing about iran but a nation like that having a nuke (let alone nukes) is not a good thing. I mean, the best case scenario given the circumstances seems to be that iran gets nukes and absolutely no one does anything about it. As in, iran never even considers using it and the US and it's allies don't loose their shit over it. In any case, I cannot imagine iran having nuclear weapons (regardless of their capacity to fire them at their enemies, I have 0 knowledge on that topic though) and the world collectively responding "meh".

I agree in that those are trump's objectives. However trump will still have to respond somehow to iran getting nuclear weapons. And in that scenario, I wouldn't find it inconceivable that even the US left pushes for a war before Iran's nuclear capacity increases to the point where it is an even bigger threat.

Does he? I am not under the impression that trump would have to do it because most of his fans wouldnt even know it since they don't consume those evil lying media.
We saw how quickly republicans fall in line when he says something, i don't think they can really pressure him unless something completely unquestionably outragous happens, like israel being attacked or....well what else?
Trump did most of the outragous stuff already and the stuff that didnt happen yet is stuff republicans don't seem to have big problems with.

I judge trump as FAR WORSE than bush really.
Bush was an idiot and responsible for at least one completely deconstructive war. Alright.
But trumps action are fit to lead to something much worse than that domestically and globally.

Well, that is what the world did everytime before, didnt it?
North Korea has nukes now, and what happened? Nothing, even tho south korea is an US ally.
Pakistan has it too. No problem.
Iran, similar to north korea, is not iran itself but is under somewhat of protection by russia. You cannot invade iran withotu russia making a VERY big fuss about it, probably supporting them with weapons.
And trump is, as we established, russia's pet. It is nothing he will do, russians probably actually have material they can use on him.
I really see the possibility of trump attacking iran at 0%.

It would be more likely that he pulls a publicity stunt like letting american trumps secure borders in israel or some shit like that.

 

[SharkBait]

Okay, then syrian migrants only be banned if you ban christianity.

What? But you dont see christian people killing in the name of their religion.

 

[shionoro]

What? But you dont see christian people killing in the name of their religion.

I see a lot more christian people killing others in the US than i see Syrians killing in the US.
How come?

 

[kkck]

<If they would want that, they'd keep the current deal, plain and simple.
Iraq was attacked because Dick Cheney was a moron and wanted to play a geostrategical powergame which worked after 9/11.
The same is not true for Iran, and Iran is not a 'we go in without much trouble' kind of deal.
Iran is one of the two (the other being the saudis) mainplayers on the arab isles, you cannot just attack iran effortlessly.
A lot of americans would die for that, noone does that just because 'they feel threatened' or 'israel feels threatened'.
Iran would have to attack israel for that to be a real possibility imo, and they wont, because israel is stronger and has nukes (even if iran has too, it makes no sense at all).

People do plenty of stupid crap because "they feel threatened". Trump being president is one of them for instance. People on the conservative end of the spectrum have been pushing for anti immigration policies in regards to countries that have terrorism in spite of immigrants not usually being the ones to carry out terrorist attacks (mostly it's people who already have US or EU nationalities). I never meant to imply iran could be easily invaded though. I just can't rule out the possibility of the US doing something idiotic once iran getting nukes is either a more imminent thing or a reality.

 

[M3J]

What? But you dont see christian people killing in the name of their religion.

Yes you do, and KKK and Nazis were Christians. We're safer from refugees than we are from Christians, and stats prove this. You have no proof whatsoever. If you want to live in a safe country, ban guns.

 

[shionoro]

So ya.....No talk about climate change anymore in the US, i guess, huh?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 26, 2017 ---

People do plenty of stupid crap because "they feel threatened". Trump being president is one of them for instance. People on the conservative end of the spectrum have been pushing for anti immigration policies in regards to countries that have terrorism in spite of immigrants not usually being the ones to carry out terrorist attacks (mostly it's people who already have US or EU nationalities). I never meant to imply iran could be easily invaded though. I just can't rule out the possibility of the US doing something idiotic once iran getting nukes is either a more imminent thing or a reality.

People do stupid things when they feel threatened, but i doubt trump would feel threatened by iranian nukes.

By now, the thing threatening him is free media, and it looks like he is going after them.
And if he is succesful enough with that, what could really force him to go to a war that would a) be a sure conflict with russia and b) be hard and bloody?
I really do not see it.

 

[kkck]

Okay, then syrian migrants only be banned if you ban christianity.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 25, 2017 ---

Does he? I am not under the impression that trump would have to do it because most of his fans wouldnt even know it since they don't consume those evil lying media.
We saw how quickly republicans fall in line when he says something, i don't think they can really pressure him unless something completely unquestionably outragous happens, like israel being attacked or....well what else?
Trump did most of the outragous stuff already and the stuff that didnt happen yet is stuff republicans don't seem to have big problems with.

I judge trump as FAR WORSE than bush really.
Bush was an idiot and responsible for at least one completely deconstructive war. Alright.
But trumps action are fit to lead to something much worse than that domestically and globally.

Well, that is what the world did everytime before, didnt it?
North Korea has nukes now, and what happened? Nothing, even tho south korea is an US ally.
Pakistan has it too. No problem.
Iran, similar to north korea, is not iran itself but is under somewhat of protection by russia. You cannot invade iran withotu russia making a VERY big fuss about it, probably supporting them with weapons.
And trump is, as we established, russia's pet. It is nothing he will do, russians probably actually have material they can use on him.
I really see the possibility of trump attacking iran at 0%.

It would be more likely that he pulls a publicity stunt like letting american trumps secure borders in israel or some shit like that.

Well, they don't consume the evil lying media but they do consume the media that told them the iran deal would somehow allow iran to get nukes faster.

I

So ya.....No talk about climate change anymore in the US, i guess, huh?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 26, 2017 ---

People do stupid things when they feel threatened, but i doubt trump would feel threatened by iranian nukes.

By now, the thing threatening him is free media, and it looks like he is going after them.
And if he is succesful enough with that, what could really force him to go to a war that would a) be a sure conflict with russia and b) be hard and bloody?
I really do not see it.

And yet, Trump feels threatened by a bunch of refugees who are by no means a threat. What you are saying is sane. Trump is not pandering to sanity...

_____________

So Trump is going on about the voter fraud thing... Wouldn't that imply auditing the votes for fraud and tampering? Which he opposed earlier? Or is there a way to investigate this without looking into the votes?

 

[shionoro]

And yet, Trump feels threatened by a bunch of refugees who are by no means a threat. What you are saying is sane. Trump is not pandering to sanity...

I think we need to differ what trump finds threatened and what he renders as a threat,

I dont think trump feels threatened by refugees, i think his behaviour is completely rational in that regard and he just renders them as threat because he knows that is ensuring his influence on a significant amount of the american citizens.

As i said, i would see an potential iran war detrimental to that, exspecially because it would lead to a conflict with the russians (and not a small one, we are talking about russians backing up iran was weapons).
That is nothing he'd risk just to make some nutjobs happy.

If people are afraid about the damn muslims he can always just act like he is going stricter on domestic muslims, that will always keep that crowd happy.

 

[M3J]

afaik there's no proof whatsoever of voter fraud, Trump is just making that up because he can't handle losing teh popular vote and that over half of the people don't want him.

 

[Philia]

The same is not true for Iran, and Iran is not a 'we go in without much trouble' kind of deal.
Iran is one of the two (the other being the saudis) mainplayers on the arab isles, you cannot just attack iran effortlessly.
A lot of americans would die for that, noone does that just because 'they feel threatened' or 'israel feels threatened'.
Iran would have to attack israel for that to be a real possibility imo, and they wont, because israel is stronger and has nukes (even if iran has too, it makes no sense at all).

Trump has nuclear codes tho. He may use them if he has no choice. His fans will still defend his action so will the republicans.

 

[shionoro]

Trump has nuclear codes tho. He may use them if he has no choice. His fans will still defend his action so will the republicans.

At the time he uses those his fans are irrelevant because then america is no more.

 

[Philia]

Trump's policies so far are isolationist. If the wall is built to will be something that the future generation will tear down and promise never again......

At the time he uses those his fans are irrelevant because then america is no more.

What could possibly happen? Other than some countries criticizing America's action?

 

[shionoro]

Trump's policies so far are isolationist. If the wall is built to will be something that the future generation will tear down and promise never again......

What could possibly happen? Other than some countries criticizing America's action?

If they nuke Iran? Counternukes from russia immadietly and a big fallout hitting israel, possibly triggering their nukes too.

People seem to forget iran and russia are allied.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 26, 2017 ---

Well maybe not triggering israels nukes, but something like that would lead to an reaction by russia and possibly china too.
That will not be allowed by those players.

That's as if someone would nuke canada and exspect the US to just let it happen.

 

[Philia]

If they nuke Iran? Counternukes from russia immadietly and a big fallout hitting israel, possibly triggering their nukes too.

People seem to forget iran and russia are allied.

Yeah they are allies. But not like Russia will wage war on USA just because USA nuked Iran. Because then Russia won't last either.

Iran has friendly relation with China and Russia. That's what may stop/have so far stopped USA from invading them. China imports most of it's oil from Iran.

Trump will tear down Iran nuclear deal. He said he would and considering how republicans opposed Iran nuclear deal, I see no reason why they would oppose it. Then Iran goes back to enriching Uranium and powering the centrifuges.....what would be US's reaction to it?

Iran definitely posses the capability to develop nukes.

 

[POW]

Trump does not have 'his problems' trump is running the US into the ground and all its foreign affairs and dependencies with it.

The iraq war was partially pushed by trump himself, because back then many people believed false accusations of iraq having weapons of mass destruction.
It has NOTHING to do with the situation at hand, namely russia openly destabilizing europe and the US and annexing parts of europe.

It is a fact that russia is behind the hacks, even simple common sense implies it. How can you call it false claims when dozens of US intelligences agree on that and the russians are known for it and are the only ones who have the means for it?

There is no false bullshit the media spills about russia and trump.

it is the sad truth and you should face it.

Lol Trump wasn't even a factor in the decision to go into Iraq but the media was as were the politicians who voted for it. I don't think it's wrong being skeptical of secret information that non of us can see, from some non descriptive people that none of us know and can't be identified. Assange of Wikileaks also stated the source is not Russia but I suppose we should just ignore him.

We have seen what happens before when the media doesn't do it's job of being skeptical and confirming facts and blindly goes along with warhawking propaganda like we saw post 9-11 leading up to Iraq. Even this election cycle show's how the media lacks objectivity being embarrassingly Pro-Hillary before the primaries were even over. This bias nature is why many people have started to get their news from alternative sources such as the TYT ect.

So where is this overwhelming evidence? What is it? Because they found some code written in Russian OMG must be Putin. Do you really think a Russian Gov backed hack job would be stupid and sloppy enough to leave behind a calling card that says "from Russia with Love" like a batman villain? Russia was the first country to put a satellite then a man in space their engineers and technicians are no less sophisticated than those of the U.S.

Yet everyone is suppose to believe that Putin a former KGB officer put forward some junior varsity hacker team to take an important mission like hacking into an American political parties and leave obvious evidence that points towards Russia all for the point of what exactly? Also doesn't this just side step the fact that regardless of who hacked the information revealed was authentic hence why DWS had to resign from the DNC chairmanship.

Blaming Russia is just an easy way out for the Hillary crowd to distract from their pathetic loss in the election as well as what was revealed in those embarrassing emails and a convenient boogie man for the warhawks. The warhawks who never see a war or conflict they don't want to dive into head first including Clinton and others like John McCain who joked about bombing Iran and wanted to stay in Iraq indefinitely are always looking for the next country to conflict with.

Russia is just an easy target and also a competitor for energy needs of Europe with US Gas companies looking to establish a beachhead into that market. US Corporate interest (lobbyist) influences----> Establishment Politicians (who take their money) interest ----->which influences US policies. The media is far from being free and objective they are sadly part of the Corporate structure which has sadly shrunk down to just 6 companies that control 90% of the news people consume. They have enormous power to sway opinions!

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Trump but he clearly doesn't fit into the establishment control model that many of the other politicians are all to eager to follow and repeat the doctrine like it's the holy gospel. I'm not a fan of Trump but I am a fan of being objective and not buying into the hype and propaganda that many who are still emotional about the loss of the election seem to be buying into. Much the way the right wing went nutz when Obama won and started seeing conspiracy theories everywhere and the left is in danger of doing the same.

I am amazed how people can still defend russia and instead blame people calling them out.

The Ministry of Truth says Russia is bad today.
The Ministry of Truth says don't believe the emails revealed by Wikileaks despite them having a track record.
The Ministry of Truth says don't believe Assange of Wikileaks saying it's not Russia
The Ministry of Truth says focus ONLY on Russia not on the objective truth.


I think as far as the left is concerned we would be better of focusing on how to fix the problems of the DNC but that would actually require us to be HONEST with ourselves and identify the problems rather than run into denial mode and blame the election loss on Russia. The Republicans made the same mistake in 2008 when they temporarily accepted the fact they were living in bubble and need to reach out to minorities and spent 4 years doing the opposite only to loose again in 2012.

As it stands now the DNC is on a fast track to loosing in 2020 having learned absolutely nothing and are eager to put up another front line of corporate Democrats rather than real progressives. Clearly people are sick and tired of cliche empty politicians and are eager for someone who genuinely recognizes their everyday concern's which the establishment have ignored for their own personal short term gain. The real pressure should be on the Democratic party to force accountability of candidates and booting out the useless ones and not just on obsessing about anit-Trump rhetoric and Russian conspiracy theories.

Blindly voting Dem wont solve the problem until we get rid of the cancer from within.

 

[shionoro]

OOOOH! Trump wants safe zones in syria now which will include zones in which 'refugees are safe from air attacks'.

Oh i see. When is the third world war there now, because that is what made people call clinton 'killary'.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 26, 2017 ---

Yeah they are allies. But not like Russia will wage war on USA just because USA nuked Iran. Because then Russia won't last either.

Iran has friendly relation with China and Russia. That's what may stop/have so far stopped USA from invading them. China imports most of it's oil from Iran.

Trump will tear down Iran nuclear deal. He said he would and considering how republicans opposed Iran nuclear deal, I see no reason why they would oppose it. Then Iran goes back to enriching Uranium and powering the centrifuges.....what would be US's reaction to it?

Iran definitely posses the capability to develop nukes.

It will trigger either the nuclear or economical end of the US because both china and russia will not accept that.
We are not talking about diplomatic efforts here anymore, we are talking about both working together at the downfall of the US no matter the cost.

That is no realistic scenario really.