American Politics

[kkck]

Careful, you're sounding like a conservative. It's not your place to tell someone else what they're allowed to be offended by. I will agree more often than not it isn't a big deal, but in the scenarios I mentioned (when things of significant cultural importance are made light of), that's when it's bad.

I am not telling anyone what to be offended about or not. But this whole thing about cultural appropriation is absurd. Culture is just the collection of things any given group of people do any giving day. It's by definition not something somebody owns or can "appropriate". In the vast majority of cases where people cry about this the people crying about the "appropriated" culture are not even from the culture in question. I still remember that case from a few years where some random girl wore a chinese style dress for some random party and people railed on her over appropriating chinese culture. Literally zero chinese people were offended by this.

People listening to music from other cultures, wearing their clothes, adopting their styles, eating their foods... those are inherently good things. Now, there are cases where people are assholes or insensitive... but that's not appropriation, it's just assholes being assholes.

Also, I am not from the US. I don't care if I sound conservative or liberal by the nonsense standards of what those things are over there. Or the standards from other places for that matter... Though I would understand if people perceive me as a left winger in some regards (though I consider myself right of center).

 

[xi0]

People listening to music from other cultures, wearing their clothes, adopting their styles, eating their foods... those are inherently good things. Now, there are cases where people are assholes or insensitive... but that's not appropriation, it's just assholes being assholes.

You can do cultural appropriation in an assholish way though, that doesn't make it less of what it is. Like wearing a native headdress or wearing a dreamcatcher as a piece of jewelry, etc. I would say that when people bring the term up they're usually talking about things like that. Not people listening to particular music or eating food.

 

[kkck]

You can do cultural appropriation in an assholish way though, that doesn't make it less of what it is. Like wearing a native headdress or wearing a dreamcatcher as a piece of jewelry, etc. I would say that when people bring the term up they're usually talking about things like that. Not people listening to particular music or eating food.

Ah, I definitely stand by the "not being an asshole" ideal. As in, yeah, obviously be respectful of other's religion. But otherwise, it's a free for all.

 

[M3J]

Cultural appropriation is the dumbest made up problem I have heard of so far...

it's not, at all. But it also depends, as I've seen some diaspora kids cry about stupid stuff, like calling chai "chai tea."

Lol, those were the good old days. I remember sitting at work fuming because I couldn't get home fast enough to reply in the Naruto arena threads because someone somewhere said something bad about Sasuke (or any Uchiha for that matter). I wanna be that excited about manga again. Refreshing mangahelpers over and over in hopes of the spoilers for this weeks newest chapter being up?

Sigh. I've never even gotten into OP either. I keep wanting to but it's just... TOO MUCH. Lol.



Careful, you're sounding like a conservative. It's not your place to tell someone else what they're allowed to be offended by. I will agree more often than not it isn't a big deal, but in the scenarios I mentioned (when things of significant cultural importance are made light of), that's when it's bad.



Exactly.

Exciting for you, annoying for mods when you guys went off topic. The Arena threads are why I can't really be assed to argue much on this site anymore. OP is worth it though.

I am not telling anyone what to be offended about or not. But this whole thing about cultural appropriation is absurd. Culture is just the collection of things any given group of people do any giving day. It's by definition not something somebody owns or can "appropriate". In the vast majority of cases where people cry about this the people crying about the "appropriated" culture are not even from the culture in question. I still remember that case from a few years where some random girl wore a chinese style dress for some random party and people railed on her over appropriating chinese culture. Literally zero chinese people were offended by this.

People listening to music from other cultures, wearing their clothes, adopting their styles, eating their foods... those are inherently good things. Now, there are cases where people are assholes or insensitive... but that's not appropriation, it's just assholes being assholes.

Also, I am not from the US. I don't care if I sound conservative or liberal by the nonsense standards of what those things are over there. Or the standards from other places for that matter... Though I would understand if people perceive me as a left winger in some regards (though I consider myself right of center).

The issue isn't listening to music from other cultures, I've never seen anyone have an issue with that. THe problem is stuff like wearing a bindi to a music festival or making fun of a certain look or food for years, and then all of the sudden liking it because it's popular, or having a tattoo of Mohammad, or whatnot.

eww, anything right

 

[shionoro]

Personally, I think a lot of the things called cultural appropriation are fine.
Like, wearing dreads as white person? People who get offended by that are silly. Or, as a related topic, people who get mad that major kusanagi was played by a white woman (even tho she was caucasian in the anime....).
I saw people getting mad at white people making traditional dishes from abroad. It is nonsensical.

The real problem is when people from a certain culture get disregarded. For example, if black musicians get disregarded and elvis comes along (not his fault, but something that happened), openly takes their music as inspiration (nothing wrong with that) and suddenly everybody loves it and he is far more successful than all his role models and they get nothing for it.
Or rather: it is a problem when the mainstream culture uses things from an oppressed group without the oppressed group having any say at all about how these things should be interpreted and used.

This is obviously a complex topic. On the one hand, nobody can tell me what to do with art or heritage or how i should see or value something.
But on the other hand, it is obvious that people who hold their cultural heritage in high regard would feel hurt when they see it being perverted or taken out of their hands.

I also think it depends on history and society of a given nation. The topic of wearing native costumes for fun is a far hotter topic in america than in europe, for obvious reasons.

I think these kinds of discussions should try to evade the semantics (is it fine to do x) and concentrate on empowering groups to keep ownership of their heritage (it matters far less whether white people do something upsetting with your heritage when you are still clearly in charge of it and make money from it. I don't think japanese people are overtly bothered with all kinds of nonasians doing bullshit no jutsu derived of any meaning with their bushido arts. Because they still own it and it is not taken out of their hands).

 

[Sanity Check]

I still remember that case from a few years where some random girl wore a chinese style dress for some random party and people railed on her over appropriating chinese culture. Literally zero chinese people were offended by this.

Cultural appropriation was a big thing pushed by SJWs years back.

Thankfully they appear to have abandoned it.

 

[xi0]

I think it's more that sincere people who didn't understand the concept in the first place or were misled by the dumpster fire that is clickbait, "anti-SJW" commentary stopped making as much noise about it. Because generally, the angry reaction to articles written by college interns was 10x bigger than the actual issue.

Or are we to honestly believe that Keith from South Dakota is actually upset that he might get ugly looks for wearing a durag or his hair in box braids?

 

[kkck]

The issue isn't listening to music from other cultures, I've never seen anyone have an issue with that. THe problem is stuff like wearing a bindi to a music festival or making fun of a certain look or food for years, and then all of the sudden liking it because it's popular, or having a tattoo of Mohammad, or whatnot.

eww, anything right

Why is wearing a bindi wrong? As far as I understand within indian culture the bindi can mean many things depending on the indian subculture... It goes from some stuff with chakras (religion), warding off bad luck (superstition?)... and simple fashion. There is no reason this can't be simple fashion for non indians. For people who aren't of the pertaining religions to this, it doesn't have to mean anything. And that's ok... Sure, you should respect other people's religion but you aren't disrespecting a religion because you decorate your forehead...

As for the bold part... what?

 

[ninjabot]

I am not telling anyone what to be offended about or not.

You said cultural appropriation is a made up problem which is basically implying it's not really a problem and thus, silly to be offended by it. But let's see how much you mean that: Go find an African American. Appropriate their vernacular by using the N word while referring to them.

And then tell them that they're getting angry at a made up problem when they point out to you that it's used differently in Black culture.

Culture is just the collection of things any given group of people do any giving day. It's by definition not something somebody owns or can "appropriate".

That's incredibly, and intentionally, reductive. Culture includes tradition and heritage as well, both of which are things that are sacred to people, and can be corrupted or diminished, and that is a real problem, not a made up one.

Also, I am not from the US. I don't care if I sound conservative or liberal by the nonsense standards of what those things are over there. Or the standards from other places for that matter... Though I would understand if people perceive me as a left winger in some regards (though I consider myself right of center).

I didn't say a US conservative. I said a conservative. Conservatism is anti progressive no matter where you go. It just varies to certain degrees depending on where you're from.

 

[kkck]

You said cultural appropriation is a made up problem which is basically implying it's not really a problem and thus, silly to be offended by it. But let's see how much you mean that: Go find an African American. Appropriate their vernacular by using the N word while referring to them.

And then tell them that they're getting angry at a made up problem when they point out to you that it's used differently in Black culture.

Pretty sure the issues with the n word go beyond merely "appropriating" it. People who say that would suffer the consequences not because they appropriated a black thing but rather because they were being cartoonishly racist... I suppose can't rule out there being people out there more offended at the appropriation than the racism though...

That's incredibly, and intentionally, reductive. Culture includes tradition and heritage as well, both of which are things that are sacred to people, and can be corrupted or diminished, and that is a real problem, not a made up one.

That tradition and heritage is still largely things which people did or still do as part of their daily lives though. Granted my definition was a generalization but it didn't exclude those things.

I didn't say a US conservative. I said a conservative. Conservatism is anti progressive no matter where you go. It just varies to certain degrees depending on where you're from.

What passes as progressive or conservative varies according to the place, people and context... That's why the right wing in the US thinks climate change is a hoax while there are plenty of right wing parties in other parts of the planet where climate change is just science. And still, I don't care if someone thinks I sound progressive or conservative. I don't frame my views like that anyways.

 

[M3J]

Why is wearing a bindi wrong? As far as I understand within indian culture the bindi can mean many things depending on the indian subculture... It goes from some stuff with chakras (religion), warding off bad luck (superstition?)... and simple fashion. There is no reason this can't be simple fashion for non indians. For people who aren't of the pertaining religions to this, it doesn't have to mean anything. And that's ok... Sure, you should respect other people's religion but you aren't disrespecting a religion because you decorate your forehead...

As for the bold part... what?

Because it's a symbol and has a meaning for women, so they'll be offended when white women (or even Indians) wear bindis to concerts or whatever. They don't want bindis to be simple fashion, that's disrespectful.

It's culture, I think, and you're disrespecting it when you decorate your forehead.


Bold part speaks for itself....

 

[ninjabot]

Pretty sure the issues with the n word go beyond merely "appropriating" it. People who say that would suffer the consequences not because they appropriated a black thing but rather because they were being cartoonishly racist... I suppose can't rule out there being people out there more offended at the appropriation than the racism though...

The point is that the people that think it's okay for them to say it despite them not being black and despite knowing what the history of the word, is usually because they feel like they can use the word the way it's used in black culture. I.E, "There's no problem because I didn't mean it that way" or "I used the A, not the hard R" or "I was just singing rap lyrics".

There are cultural reasons why it's okay for me, but not for thee.

That tradition and heritage is still largely things which people did or still do as part of their daily lives though. Granted my definition was a generalization but it didn't exclude those things.

Correct. They do it because of the significant cultural importance to them. And they'd prefer they remained culturally important by treating them with the respect they've grown to treat them with for generations. Seeing someone that doesn't pay the same respect to that tradition or heritage, but taking part in it for aesthetic reasons or shits and giggles is upsetting for people who hold it in such high esteem.

Meaning it's a real problem. No matter what your personal views about it are. You don't get to dismiss the problems other people genuinely have as "made up" just because they don't mesh with your views on the world.

What passes as progressive or conservative varies according to the place, people and context... That's why the right wing in the US thinks climate change is a hoax while there are plenty of right wing parties in other parts of the planet where climate change is just science. And still, I don't care if someone thinks I sound progressive or conservative. I don't frame my views like that anyways.

I said that though: that it varies around the world to different degrees of regressive, but they're still regressive Or maybe stagnation is a better word. There are places that accept climate change but still want to throw homosexuals off of buildings. As for how you frame your views, you don't live in a vacuum, and you're gonna be judged by your peers for said views. We all are. We live in a society.

As for the "I don't care whether you believe I'm the thing I'm painstakingly avoiding being defined as" take, that sounds like cope to me, because I know for a fact you've clarified more than once that you're center right in these political discussions with other left leaning posters. You know the implications of the word conservative, and you've rejected it several times. That's why I'm pointing out what you sound like: because you do care. If you think you're center right, but you're sounding alt-right, then it's time for some introspection.

 

[kkck]

Because it's a symbol and has a meaning for women, so they'll be offended when white women (or even Indians) wear bindis to concerts or whatever. They don't want bindis to be simple fashion, that's disrespectful.

It's culture, I think, and you're disrespecting it when you decorate your forehead.


Bold part speaks for itself....

That's what I said though. But it doesn't have just one meaning, it means a lot of different things across cultures in India. Straight up fashion being one of them, perhaps even the main one nowdays.... I can't imagine people who are actually in india actually giving a crap about white people in the US wearing a bindi.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2021 ---

The point is that the people that think it's okay for them to say it despite them not being black and despite knowing what the history of the word, is usually because they feel like they can use the word the way it's used in black culture. I.E, "There's no problem because I didn't mean it that way" or "I used the A, not the hard R" or "I was just singing rap lyrics".

There are cultural reasons why it's okay for me, but not for thee.

Correct. They do it because of the significant cultural importance to them. And they'd prefer they remained culturally important by treating them with the respect they've grown to treat them with for generations. Seeing someone that doesn't pay the same respect to that tradition or heritage, but taking part in it for aesthetic reasons or shits and giggles is upsetting for people who hold it in such high esteem.

Meaning it's a real problem. No matter what your personal views about it are. You don't get to dismiss the problems other people genuinely have as "made up" just because they don't mesh with your views on the world.

I said that though: that it varies around the world to different degrees of regressive, but they're still regressive Or maybe stagnation is a better word. There are places that accept climate change but still want to throw homosexuals off of buildings. As for how you frame your views, you don't live in a vacuum, and you're gonna be judged by your peers for said views. We all are. We live in a society.

As for the "I don't care whether you believe I'm the thing I'm painstakingly avoiding being defined as" take, that sounds like cope to me, because I know for a fact you've clarified more than once that you're center right in these political discussions with other left leaning posters. You know the implications of the word conservative, and you've rejected it several times. That's why I'm pointing out what you sound like: because you do care. If you think you're center right, but you're sounding alt-right, then it's time for some introspection.

As far as I can tell this goes well beyond that. It's not even that non blacks can't use the word in the same way as blacks. There is no way, shape or context in which it's acceptable for non blacks to use the word. Even in this convo where we are probably thousands of miles apart its not appropriate for me to use the word even to refer to the word.

I think that bit about culture misses the overall point. Sure, at some point certain cultural things become about "heritage". But before they were about heritage they were simply practical things people did during their daily lives for practical reasons. Cultures across the world that danced, sacrificed a virgin or burned an effigy for whatever deity or god or whatever didn't do it because it was their "heritage". They did it because otherwise they wouldn't get rain and die. Eventually of course the believes die down and people realize they aren't actually bringing rain or warding off evil spirits or whichever bad juju that things become "heritage"... Which doesn't mean those things aren't important but there's definitely a big difference from when people did them because they though it meaningfully impacted their overall well being rather than it just being culture and heritage. Like with the bindi, which sure, there are people who believe it connects chakras or wards of bad luck but ultimately for most people in India nowadays it's a fashion statement.

As for the last part.... I don't care. If you think I sound alt right, that sounds more like your problem than mine. I don't feel any further right of center because you say so tbh.

 

[xi0]

A bit of a shitpost, but I think it sums up the minimum wage discourse pretty well

Could probably apply it to cancelling student debt too

 

[M3J]

That's what I said though. But it doesn't have just one meaning, it means a lot of different things across cultures in India. Straight up fashion being one of them, perhaps even the main one nowdays.... I can't imagine people who are actually in india actually giving a crap about white people in the US wearing a bindi.

Fashion where though? Bindi as far as I know often symbolizes that the woman is married, among other things, but not fashion. It's usually diaspora kids whining about these things, but still.

 

[ninjabot]

As far as I can tell this goes well beyond that. It's not even that non blacks can't use the word in the same way as blacks. There is no way, shape or context in which it's acceptable for non blacks to use the word. Even in this convo where we are probably thousands of miles apart its not appropriate for me to use the word even to refer to the word.

Good. I'm glad you agree that I'm right and certain parts of a group's culture shouldn't be adopted outside of said culture to protect the feelings of those within said culture.

I think that bit about culture misses the overall point. Sure, at some point certain cultural things become about "heritage". But before they were about heritage they were simply practical things people did during their daily lives for practical reasons. Cultures across the world that danced, sacrificed a virgin or burned an effigy for whatever deity or god or whatever didn't do it because it was their "heritage". They did it because otherwise they wouldn't get rain and die. Eventually of course the believes die down and people realize they aren't actually bringing rain or warding off evil spirits or whichever bad juju that things become "heritage"... Which doesn't mean those things aren't important but there's definitely a big difference from when people did them because they though it meaningfully impacted their overall well being rather than it just being culture and heritage. Like with the bindi, which sure, there are people who believe it connects chakras or wards of bad luck but ultimately for most people in India nowadays it's a fashion statement.

This argument is becoming more complicated than it has to be. My only point was that you're telling people who have a problem that their problem doesn't exist. That the adoption and bastardization of things important to them shouldn't be considered a slight. At the bolded, can you honestly explain how the hell something that's important to someone being taken and treated as unimportant by other people isn't hurtful? Realize again, this LOOKS as if you're trying to tell other people what they're allowed to be upset by. If you aren't, I apologize. If you are, and if you don't see this as a dick move... I guess you really are a conservative.

As for the last part.... I don't care. If you think I sound alt right, that sounds more like your problem than mine. I don't feel any further right of center because you say so tbh.

Say it enough times and I'm sure someone will believe you.

 

[kkck]

Good. I'm glad you agree that I'm right and certain parts of a group's culture shouldn't be adopted outside of said culture to protect the feelings of those within said culture.

This argument is becoming more complicated than it has to be. My only point was that you're telling people who have a problem that their problem doesn't exist. That the adoption and bastardization of things important to them shouldn't be considered a slight. At the bolded, can you honestly explain how the hell something that's important to someone being taken and treated as unimportant by other people isn't hurtful? Realize again, this LOOKS as if you're trying to tell other people what they're allowed to be upset by. If you aren't, I apologize. If you are, and if you don't see this as a dick move... I guess you really are a conservative.

Say it enough times and I'm sure someone will believe you.

I mean, the point I was going for was that non black people can't use the word even when they are using it in a manner distinct from how black people use it in conversation. As in, even where merely speaking about the word without referring to anyone as an n word... I've literally never used the word in a conversation but that was simply because of the word's deeply racist connotations, not because of a risk of appropriating it. There's simply no reason to refer to anyone in such a manner.

As far as I am concerned people are allowed to be offended by anything they want. That's a different thing from me believing that being offended at something makes a shred of sense. As for why it isn't hurtful... Obviously there is a limit and thus a point at which you are simply being an asshole to someone for no reason... But that limit I would argue is way past merely wearing other culture's clothes.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2021 ---

Fashion where though? Bindi as far as I know often symbolizes that the woman is married, among other things, but not fashion. It's usually diaspora kids whining about these things, but still.

In india as far as I can tell. Granted that it's not the only reason but it's a pretty big one. I mean, what does it say of this issue that it's only people in the US who cry about this but people in india at large don't give it the time of the day? (though india has nearly a billion people, I am sure it's possible to find someone who takes issue with this if you look). Reading about this even suggests the bindi has grown as a fashion industry significantly over the past several decades in india. It's also weird to think that a culture has a monopoly over accessorizing foreheads...

 

[M3J]

Likely because in India, people who wear bindi for fashion actually know the history behind it and what it symbolizes, whereas the Western world is largely ignorant.

 

[kkck]

Likely because in India, people who wear bindi for fashion actually know the history behind it and what it symbolizes, whereas the Western world is largely ignorant.

If you are wearing it for fashion why does it matter whether you know its history and context? In that context it's still just an accessory regardless of what you know about it.

 

[M3J]

Because it's disrespectful otherwise to just wear it as an accessory? I mean, you can google this for a better explanation if you want