American Politics

[hokageji]

Tax more or find a way to do it? Because the way the system is set up is bullshit, especially when it affects so many homeless people and impoverished sick people. Wealthy individuals have some power too, and they have the ability to help.

That'll work for the uber wealthy in the public eye... What about those who make money purely on wall street speculation? A wealth tax for percentage above a certain removes reliability fomr these things...

Anyways, the other thing that is helping is marijuana legalization. The revenue is going towards help build homeless shelters as well...

--- Double Post Merged, May 20, 2021, Original Post Date: May 20, 2021 ---

hype! nice to see my fav sport supported



if approved

are you being sarcastic here? Cant say...

 

[xi0]

Keep in mind this is who is running in opposition to Liz Cheney

 

[kkck]

"I don't want to hide anything" says the scummy politician who reveals his kinda sorta crime mere moments before the media rails him with it... while simultaneously revealing he doesn't know the plot of romeo and juliet....

 

[SharkBait]

"I don't want to hide anything" says the scummy politician who reveals his kinda sorta crime mere moments before the media rails him with it... while simultaneously revealing he doesn't know the plot of romeo and juliet....

yeah I was like did I miss the Romeo and Juliet where they lived happily ever after or something, and I thought they hadn't done anything more than just a chaste kiss.

 

[xi0]

yeah I was like did I miss the Romeo and Juliet where they lived happily ever after or something, and I thought they hadn't done anything more than just a chaste kiss.

They didn't live happily ever after. Ironically she killed herself a year or so after they divorced. So maybe he did read... pieces of it

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2021, Original Post Date: May 22, 2021 ---

Just ends up looking like yet another example of "we'll support a rapist pedo or anything equally as bad, as long as they aren't overtly critical of our fearless leader"

 

[SharkBait]

hopefully trump gets charged with a federal offense, then he cant be president

 

[M3J]

Keep in mind this is who is running in opposition to Liz Cheney

I'm not surprised if he wins/garners more support, especially if anyone the conservatives think are the left criticizes him.

 

[shionoro]

I am mixed about this.

On the one hand: I do not think an 18 year old being together with a 14 year old should be called a pedophile, especially if it was about 30 years or more ago in Wyoming. Like, my parents got together when they were 17 and 14, 18 and 14 is a relatively wide gap but hardly absurd among teens depending on things like common friend groups and the individual mental maturity of the couple.

Using that against someone 30 years later is digging out dirt and very obvious character assassination.

On the other hand: I was banned both on conservative leaning reddits and discords for saying that the perfectly legal movie cuties is not child abuse and was called a pedophile, much like conservative leaning people love calling everybody a pedophile or alleging it if they do not like someone (pizzagate, joe biden kisses children).
So in the american media landscape where dirt is thrown around against everyone and this particular man played just that game himself, he seems to be fair game.

I still want to stress tho: While i would hardly be happy about it if my son or daughter were involved in either side of an 18/14 relationship, that has nothing to do with pedophilia nor is it necessarily toxic. And digging it out 30 years later is obvious character assassination that should play no role in politics.

Leave alone without the whole context, just to insinuate that he is responsible for her suicide.

He is a terrible, terrible man (and his response showed it), but the attack is nasty and obnoxious in its own right.

 

[SharkBait]

I am mixed about this.

On the one hand: I do not think an 18 year old being together with a 14 year old should be called a pedophile, especially if it was about 30 years or more ago in Wyoming. Like, my parents got together when they were 17 and 14, 18 and 14 is a relatively wide gap but hardly absurd among teens depending on things like common friend groups and the individual mental maturity of the couple.

Using that against someone 30 years later is digging out dirt and very obvious character assassination.

On the other hand: I was banned both on conservative leaning reddits and discords for saying that the perfectly legal movie cuties is not child abuse and was called a pedophile, much like conservative leaning people love calling everybody a pedophile or alleging it if they do not like someone (pizzagate, joe biden kisses children).
So in the american media landscape where dirt is thrown around against everyone and this particular man played just that game himself, he seems to be fair game.

I still want to stress tho: While i would hardly be happy about it if my son or daughter were involved in either side of an 18/14 relationship, that has nothing to do with pedophilia nor is it necessarily toxic. And digging it out 30 years later is obvious character assassination that should play no role in politics.

Leave alone without the whole context, just to insinuate that he is responsible for her suicide.

He is a terrible, terrible man (and his response showed it), but the attack is nasty and obnoxious in its own right.

but making a 14 year old pregnant? thats way too young...

 

[xi0]

I still want to stress tho: While i would hardly be happy about it if my son or daughter were involved in either side of an 18/14 relationship, that has nothing to do with pedophilia nor is it necessarily toxic. And digging it out 30 years later is obvious character assassination that should play no role in politics.

Maybe some assumptions are being made, but you're also making assumptions here to give him the benefit of the doubt when he isn't owed it. It's illegal everywhere in the US and is statutory rape. The fact is, some 8th graders are 14 years old. Some college freshmen are 18 year olds. Is a college-aged person someone who should be having a sexual relationship with an 8th grader? Does this seem inappropriate and closer to pedophilia than not? If you insist on ephebophilia, whatever... the point is it's abhorrent and he only admitted it to get out in front of the story because it was going to be uncovered in the media anyway.

Just imagine yourself back when you were a freshman in college and whether you would have thought it was acceptable to lust after an 8th grader.

Leave alone without the whole context, just to insinuate that he is responsible for her suicide.

He is a terrible, terrible man (and his response showed it), but the attack is nasty and obnoxious in its own right.

I wasn't insinuating it, just pointing out the irony in him evoking Romeo & Juliet, given the outcome.

I would not be shocked given the circumstances though.

 

[shionoro]

Maybe some assumptions are being made, but you're also making assumptions here to give him the benefit of the doubt when he isn't owed it. It's illegal everywhere in the US and is statutory rape. The fact is, some 8th graders are 14 years old. Some college freshmen are 18 year olds. Is a college-aged person someone who should be having a sexual relationship with an 8th grader? Does this seem inappropriate and closer to pedophilia than not? If you insist on ephebophilia, whatever... the point is it's abhorrent and he only admitted it to get out in front of the story because it was going to be uncovered in the media anyway.

Just imagine yourself back when you were a freshman in college and whether you would have thought it was acceptable to lust after an 8th grader.

No, in insist on it not being abnormal in most countries. It would not be illegal in germany, for example. And judging from my school life, it was not insanely uncommon that there were couples along that line because they went to the same school or had mutual friends.
For example, i had a friend who did many house parties and her little sister was usually there, she was 14, her sister was 17, some friends of her sister were 18.

I'd personally not do that, but claiming it is pedophilia when there is a common friend or social group and they both go to school together seems questionable to me when many 14 year olds are already sexually active and most 18 year olds go to school like anyone else.

So, I'd claim that is not any kind of 'philia', really.

I wasn't insinuating it, just pointing out the irony in him evoking Romeo & Juliet, given the outcome.

I would not be shocked given the circumstances though.

I do not mean you personally, i mean some news articles I read. Obviously, if you it is mentioned in the media that you divorced her and she suicided later, that is pretty bad.

And i am not claiming that guy is not a horrible person. But just because you get a 14 year old pregnant with 18 back then in Wyoming where sexual education was probably not a thing you are not necessarily a horrible person or pedophile. That words get thrown around far too much.

He might have abused a 14 year old girl, got her pregnant and then left her at the wayside. He might also have been a teen who had a crush on the little sister of a friend, had no sexual education and then was forced to marry her and it didnt work out (predictably).

I dont think character assassination is ever acceptable, even when it is against republicans who love to do it themselves.

 

[kkck]

I am mixed about this.

On the one hand: I do not think an 18 year old being together with a 14 year old should be called a pedophile, especially if it was about 30 years or more ago in Wyoming. Like, my parents got together when they were 17 and 14, 18 and 14 is a relatively wide gap but hardly absurd among teens depending on things like common friend groups and the individual mental maturity of the couple.

Using that against someone 30 years later is digging out dirt and very obvious character assassination.

On the other hand: I was banned both on conservative leaning reddits and discords for saying that the perfectly legal movie cuties is not child abuse and was called a pedophile, much like conservative leaning people love calling everybody a pedophile or alleging it if they do not like someone (pizzagate, joe biden kisses children).
So in the american media landscape where dirt is thrown around against everyone and this particular man played just that game himself, he seems to be fair game.

I still want to stress tho: While i would hardly be happy about it if my son or daughter were involved in either side of an 18/14 relationship, that has nothing to do with pedophilia nor is it necessarily toxic. And digging it out 30 years later is obvious character assassination that should play no role in politics.

Leave alone without the whole context, just to insinuate that he is responsible for her suicide.

He is a terrible, terrible man (and his response showed it), but the attack is nasty and obnoxious in its own right.

Welp, if you look at it in the strict legal sense he definitely isn't a pedophile as legally that usually means sexual acts with prepubescent children.

And in this case... yeah, there's plenty of places where that age difference wouldn't be viewed as terrible. Now, we also have to consider the US is a country where age differences are frowned upon to begin with and there is at least a good chance the age of consent bit does not benefit the guy at all. Honestly, if it was a 16 and a 20 year old I wouldn't find it weird but even mentally there is a rather substantial gap with between someone who is in her second year as a teenager and someone who is legally an adult. Even if this turns out legal there is an inherent creepiness' to it all.

Also, I disagree. This isn't some random lie that appeared out of nowhere... Politicians are public figures subjected to scrutiny. Digging up their pasts is perfectly fair game, if not necessary. And if they can't take the hit then they shouldn't be in politics. It's simply not character assassination if you are hitting them with the facts. Character assassination is inherently dishonest....

 

[xi0]

Age of consent laws are at the end of the day somewhat arbitrary, but they're a framework agreed upon in lieu of having nothing at all. Romeo & Juliet laws exist to protect the more harmless scenarios you see when one partner is older than the other.

That being said none of those stipulations protect this person, and for good reason. Moving under the assumption that some sort of untoward coercion wasn't involved when a 14 year old gets pregnant by an adult is affording the kind of generosity that the overwhelming majority of people who would do this sort of thing don't really deserve. If you don't want to assume he's guilty of some sort of chronophilia, that's your prerogative. But he's still a rapist by legal definition and impregnated a minor. What sort of impression should people have of him, given that? Especially with how he addressed it.

 

[shionoro]

Also, I disagree. This isn't some random lie that appeared out of nowhere... Politicians are public figures subjected to scrutiny. Digging up their pasts is perfectly fair game, if not necessary. And if they can't take the hit then they shouldn't be in politics. It's simply not character assassination if you are hitting them with the facts. Character assassination is inherently dishonest....

@xi0

I dno, digging their past as in their electoral record or habitual fraudulent behavior is one thing, but digging their past when they were a teen? I do not see many ways in which that can be helpful but many in which it can be harmful.
Digging out dirty stories from somebody's private life is fit to destroy someone's career but not fit to get better politicians elected, as these stories can often misrepresent the truth more than they show it.

I do remember how they tried to stick domestic abuse on warnock. There are obviously limits when it speaks for somebody being of vile character RIGHT NOW. As in, I think it should play a role with Roy Moore. He pursued dates with underage girls when he was in his 30s and he was accused of abusing his power to cover it up (telling one of the girls he is district attorney and she cannot fight back against him).
If that is true (and it probably is), that is a very strong indication that this person should not be elected. Talking about these open accusations is not character assassination for me as they go deeper.

I would generally distinguish between what is legal and what is moral, even tho it usually overlaps. It is illegal for a couple of 17 and 19 to send each other sexual pictures of themselves, but it is hardly amoral. Still, legally, you could create an article about a person involved in that and say 'he was busted for child pornography' and you'd have a good chance that it sticks if there was a conviction.

So in this case here, it was definitely illegal what he did and, under US law, was rape. But to really judge the case about its morality, there would be far more information necessary about them.
Roy Moore hung out in malls to find young girls when he was over 30, that is a very obvious case. But we do not know that with Bouchard. Were they a couple for a longer time and pretty obviously in love or did he just knock up some drunk girl that could not say no?
Did he put in an honest effort when marrying her but it did not work out, or did he just marry her for the optics and pressure her into a divorce?
Did he care for the child to the best of his abilities, or did he try to get out of this mess without any regard for the child and the mother?

WE agree that his reaction is very, very bad. But on the other hand, if you see your career slip away for an ugly story from decades ago, the first instinct would always to be to ask a PR advisor about what to do, and where he comes from, the 'i did not want to abort the baby' story might be the story most likely succeeding in protecting his career.

 

[kkck]

@xi0

I dno, digging their past as in their electoral record or habitual fraudulent behavior is one thing, but digging their past when they were a teen? I do not see many ways in which that can be helpful but many in which it can be harmful.
Digging out dirty stories from somebody's private life is fit to destroy someone's career but not fit to get better politicians elected, as these stories can often misrepresent the truth more than they show it.

I do remember how they tried to stick domestic abuse on warnock. There are obviously limits when it speaks for somebody being of vile character RIGHT NOW. As in, I think it should play a role with Roy Moore. He pursued dates with underage girls when he was in his 30s and he was accused of abusing his power to cover it up (telling one of the girls he is district attorney and she cannot fight back against him).
If that is true (and it probably is), that is a very strong indication that this person should not be elected. Talking about these open accusations is not character assassination for me as they go deeper.

I would generally distinguish between what is legal and what is moral, even tho it usually overlaps. It is illegal for a couple of 17 and 19 to send each other sexual pictures of themselves, but it is hardly amoral. Still, legally, you could create an article about a person involved in that and say 'he was busted for child pornography' and you'd have a good chance that it sticks if there was a conviction.

So in this case here, it was definitely illegal what he did and, under US law, was rape. But to really judge the case about its morality, there would be far more information necessary about them.
Roy Moore hung out in malls to find young girls when he was over 30, that is a very obvious case. But we do not know that with Bouchard. Were they a couple for a longer time and pretty obviously in love or did he just knock up some drunk girl that could not say no?
Did he put in an honest effort when marrying her but it did not work out, or did he just marry her for the optics and pressure her into a divorce?
Did he care for the child to the best of his abilities, or did he try to get out of this mess without any regard for the child and the mother?

WE agree that his reaction is very, very bad. But on the other hand, if you see your career slip away for an ugly story from decades ago, the first instinct would always to be to ask a PR advisor about what to do, and where he comes from, the 'i did not want to abort the baby' story might be the story most likely succeeding in protecting his career.

In this specific case though... which specific fact has been misrepresented in any way? It's not even what the media has reported on this, it's his own words. It's an attempt on his side to have some manner of control over the narrative. Don't get me wrong, I specifically do not agree with character assassination. Character assassination is by definition dishonest. But that is simply not something that is happening here (yet at least). This is the guy "coming clean" decades after the fact of the potential crime. In that sense its not like he pretty much probably couldn't have had a better response in general.

I will also add that the two being actual boyfriend and girlfriend beforehand only makes the story look worst. It's bad enough to have a 14 and 18 year old together... but them being younger than this gets more disturbing. It wouldn't necessarily involve a legal adult but but it'd still involve a barely pubescent girl with a 17 year old old.

 

[shionoro]

In this specific case though... which specific fact has been misrepresented in any way? It's not even what the media has reported on this, it's his own words. It's an attempt on his side to have some manner of control over the narrative. Don't get me wrong, I specifically do not agree with character assassination. Character assassination is by definition dishonest. But that is simply not something that is happening here (yet at least). This is the guy "coming clean" decades after the fact of the potential crime. In that sense its not like he pretty much probably couldn't have had a better response in general.

I will also add that the two being actual boyfriend and girlfriend beforehand only makes the story look worst. It's bad enough to have a 14 and 18 year old together... but them being younger than this gets more disturbing. It wouldn't necessarily involve a legal adult but but it'd still involve a barely pubescent girl with a 17 year old old.

Oh what i meant with relationship is not it going on longer, but them being actually together at that point, even if it is for a short time. I meant it to distinguish between 'taking advantage of a drunk 14 year old, impregnating her and trying to wriggle out' or 'actually having a relationship with the person that you are emotionally involved in'.

But about the character assassination: it is true that he wanted to preemptively respond to a story that would unfold and that his response was pretty disturbing. We agree on that. The reason i call it character assassination is because I generally question why you would try to dig out old stories that have nothing to do with politics about politicians. The only reason I see is because you want to tell a story that puts dirt onto them.

I know that this is done in the US since a long time and I know that Republicans (and this guy probably too) do it far worse than democrats because they just lie about things if they need to (Ilhan Omar's brother....), but it still is somewhat alien to me and I think it should not be done.

So my first impulse when i stumble upon it kinda is to discourage it.

 

[kkck]

Oh what i meant with relationship is not it going on longer, but them being actually together at that point, even if it is for a short time. I meant it to distinguish between 'taking advantage of a drunk 14 year old, impregnating her and trying to wriggle out' or 'actually having a relationship with the person that you are emotionally involved in'.

But about the character assassination: it is true that he wanted to preemptively respond to a story that would unfold and that his response was pretty disturbing. We agree on that. The reason i call it character assassination is because I generally question why you would try to dig out old stories that have nothing to do with politics about politicians. The only reason I see is because you want to tell a story that puts dirt onto them.

I know that this is done in the US since a long time and I know that Republicans (and this guy probably too) do it far worse than democrats because they just lie about things if they need to (Ilhan Omar's brother....), but it still is somewhat alien to me and I think it should not be done.

So my first impulse when i stumble upon it kinda is to discourage it.

Honestly, with those ages an actual relationship with all the emotions and whatnot is only marginally less disturbing than straight up abuse.

And... what do the motives matter? I would argue its a good thing to have reporters and political enemies continually looking for dirt over politicians in general. If you are a politician and someone finds dirt on you it's 110% your fault and you probably deserve more than what's actually coming to you.

 

[shionoro]

Honestly, with those ages an actual relationship with all the emotions and whatnot is only marginally less disturbing than straight up abuse.

And... what do the motives matter? I would argue its a good thing to have reporters and political enemies continually looking for dirt over politicians in general. If you are a politician and someone finds dirt on you it's 110% your fault and you probably deserve more than what's actually coming to you.

That is not my view on it, but i guess its offtopic here on when relationship age gap is definitely abusive.

I do not think it is good when reporters try to find dirt on politicians that is not politically relevant. AT ALL. I thinkt hat is very toxic and leads to political reporting being marginalized in favor of dirty stories that capture the views.
This whole 'who is that person' is kinda of a fetish, not only in politics but also in any high profile reporting.

It is always both political sides trying to find as much dirt as possible and making it a PR fight. Can you find enough dirt on the black man to say he was no angel? Can you find enough dirt on the cop to say he was a definitive psychopath and ticking time bomb?

In my view, this is very destructive. American politicians have to wear a persona front and center to succeed because america is obsessed with personal stories, both good and bad. 'I was that girl' was more important than Harris policies (even if it did not end up working). And it was 'Pocahontas' and snake Emojis that really let Warren's popularity go south. Even tho it did not matter in the slightest for the question of whether they will do good politics.

And because it is so effective, it is even used with lies. Pizzagate, Birthers, Omar's brother. And oftentime, truth mixes with lies and halftruths. Because obviously, it is easy to exaggerate halftruths.
Biden has gaffes --> he is completely demented and does not know where he is.
Biden is a touchy person, both with women and children --> Biden is a pedophile abuser and rapist

Politicians would have to lie less if they didnt know the next step.

If I would be Bouchard, I would have preemptively come up with a story about abortion too, because i know that if i dont, i will be rendered as a pedophile rapist who pushed his childwife to suicide, no matter if the actual truth is far more ambiguous.

 

[M3J]

"Character assassination"
But it can say a lot about the person. Who's to say he won't try to lower age of consent or something else?

 

[xi0]

Maybe it's unfair, but for me, someone with that kind of past can go dig ditches somewhere for a living or something. They have no business having input on public policy. And it's made worse that he represents the 21st Century Know-Nothing tradition that we can thank Trump for. Liz Cheney is a carpetbager, an Obama-Birther, and an all around backward ghoul but at least she hasn't lost complete touch with reality and knocked up 14 year olds.