American Politics

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Russia managed in a week to make several countries go 180.

By now, even countries that were always interested in good relations to russia, like Hungary, Germany or Finland, reversed their stance. Almost all european countries are now sending aid or weapons to ukraine, including even warplanes.

Whole Europe forbid planes from russia to fly over and they want to sanction belarus too now.

I cannot stress enough how this is a 180 for germany who always resisted sending weapons to Ukraine or to up their own military spending. Also, propaganda outlets like russia today were banned and russia will be banned from swift.
Germany even cancelled north stream 2. Both of these steps are going to create heavy economic drawbacks for germany and other european countries. This is not a thing you do lightly.

And here you stand talking about actions of the US as if that matters right now. We are looking at a whole new order in europe in a situation in which nuclear strikes are threatened by a man who seems deranged enough to follow through with it and who is currently creating 5 million refugees by sieging cities that never were even close to attacking russia.

You don't get anything about this conflict if you think "WELL NATO AND UKRAINE IS NOT PERFECT" would matter in the evaluation of who might be right or wrong here.

You conveniently gloss over the US' and UK's involvement in NATO. And SWIFT. It's not completely accurate to say we 'run' them, but close enough to it. We're clearly the biggest name in the room, which is why leaders wanted to know if we were personally going to push for SWIFT disconnect.

Germany is sending armaments while still buying Russian gas. It's almost laughable. No one is willing to actually FIGHT for Ukraine. And it's funny how the knee-jerk response was to avoid economic nuclear options.

Germany 'cancelled' NS2 which wasn't likely to be operational until late 2022 anyways (i.e., whoopdee-doo). There are still many pipelines operational.

And, OFC, no one is willing to even begin to mess with China, who is underwriting Russia economically.




If one's ONLY critique is about NATO, maybe your last point would be valid. It's possible to walk and chew gum, and have multiple opinions about a complex issue, I promise.

 

[xi0]

And here you stand talking about actions of the US as if that matters right now.

Saying that it doesn't matter is ignoring the role the largest imperial force on Earth has in it, yes. Putin can be completely deranged for invading and have the majority of the blame and US foreign policy is still culpable in the current situation. Or do you think that NATO's mission is completely righteous?

 

[Sanity Check]

Germany 'cancelled' NS2 which wasn't likely to be operational until late 2022 anyways (i.e., whoopdee-doo). There are still many pipelines operational.

Clearly europe has great success with oil pipelines.

Which might lead a rational and logical thinking american public to question why oil pipelines are demonized and closed down inside their own country.

But we all know that will never happen because reasons.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I was asking you whether you know about the wars and hostilities putin waged in Europe. Do you? Do you know anything about the european conflicts?
I was not asking you to excuse war by talking about america.

Why are there several russian rebel states in different european countries? Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine...
Oh and what happened in Belarus lately?

Why do Finland and Sweden want to join Nato now? Why did so many eastern european states who had good relations to russia turn to EU or Nato?

Feel free to search my posts. I've mentioned most of this. Georgia specifically. What's going on with the Nordic countries relative to Russia (umm, hello, I posted about his threat). I brought up Belarus' involvement. Obviously Ukraine.

I can talk about the 'stans/Russian underbelly as well.



Now, will you or will you not post an article that itemizes total number of countries 'invaded' by Putin, forward bases he has, military involvement in total countries he's responsible for, and death count he should own - military and civilian?

Or not?

Again, I'd like to compare apples to apples. Are you capable of doing such a thing?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 27, 2022 ---

Clearly europe has great success with oil pipelines.

Which might lead a rational and logical thinking american public to question why oil pipelines are demonized and closed down inside their own country.

But we all know that will never happen because reasons.

He's probably not even aware of Trump's NS2-related sanctions. Trump, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Putin (the claim goes),, who shipped more weapons to anti-Russ Ukraine than his predecessor, Obama, his own NS2 financial sanctions, ran counter operations than Putin in Syria in an extremely obvious proxy war, etc. Trump, who enlarged our military budget and presence which proves to be a thorn in Russia's side. It almost makes you wonder, does it not?

Wait, which president was it that was enriching his family in Ukraine with unqualified, money-laundering "jobs" held by his son? Ohhhhh...

Don't worry, I think there are a few republicans dipping in the money-well that is Ukraine as, well, well.

 

[shionoro]

ou conveniently gloss over the US' and UK's involvement in NATO. And SWIFT. It's not completely accurate to say we 'run' them, but close enough to it. We're clearly the biggest name in the room, which is why leaders wanted to know if we were personally going to push for SWIFT disconnect.

Germany is sending armaments while still buying Russian gas. It's almost laughable. No one is willing to actually FIGHT for Ukraine. And it's funny how the knee-jerk response was to avoid economic nuclear options.

I see, you get your political opinion from badly made webcomics.

Fact remains that north stream 2 is a project germany protected vigilantly against US (and other EU9 criticism and that germany refused to send arms even when everyone urged them to do that.
Germany tried its best to avoid conflict and still has to do it now because russia still decided to go full on maniac.

None of your distorted ideas about what nato did or didnt can erase the fact that germans politics towards russia was one of trying to avoid any conflict, even when russia stole crimea.
It was germany that prevented nato troops from being stationed in Ukraine.

Germany Concerned about Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine - DER SPIEGEL

Acting like Europe was warmongering and is turning on russia without russia going maniac is just a deep big lie.

And yes, north stream 2 and the swift ban will hurt germany A LOT.

Saying that it doesn't matter is ignoring the role the largest imperial force on Earth has in it, yes. Putin can be completely deranged for invading and have the majority of the blame and US foreign policy is still culpable in the current situation. Or do you think that NATO's mission is completely righteous?

I have asked you several times tho how it would be culpable.
And yes, I think right now, what Nato does is completely righteous without any ifs and buts. And I think ignoring that is some kind of "both sides" bias.

We are at the point where the most 'aggressive' thing you could really pin on nato is that they keep open the possiblity of inviting countries that russia is actively bullying.
You will not be able to give any example of a nato member instigating hostile against against russian territory or soldiers.

The reason of the first ukraine conflict had nothing to do with nato either. You cannot equate foreign meddling (like Nuland, who didnt want Klitschko in Ukraine government) is the same as actively attacking or threatening a nation, leave alone russia.
Ukraine drifted towards the EU and that made russia so angry (without the EU instigating anything) that it reacted by military means.

That makes Russia the cuplrit for this mess, similarly to russia attacking without being threatened right now.

 

[xi0]

Which might lead a rational and logical thinking american public to question why oil pipelines are demonized and closed down inside their own country.

Because they're always planned to go through protected land reserves that the US signed treaties over.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Because they're always planned to go through protected land reserves that the US signed treaties over.

That sucks in of itself.

Is energy-independence important at all though? Hell, we're not even getting into fracking yet. Let's just start there.

Sometimes eggs have to be cracked if an omelette is your goal.

 

[M3J]

I'm not in disagreement with you. I'm in total agreement. It's terrifying to think you got to the border but you can't cross.

But it's even worse to think you can't even get started to GET to said border.

I know you are. The whole thing really exposes what people think, and how they support Ukrainians doing the same thing they criticize Black people and Middle Eastern people for.

Do you think this (like what you see at the train stations) would happen if the US was facing a similar existential threat? I don't. Maybe I'm just naive.

Yes it would. It easily would.

Since i am a rational observer i do not direct "hate" but talk about what the urgent issues are. When the urgent issue is Afghanistan or Iraq, i talk about that.

"RaTiOnAl ObSeRvEr"
if you still support Zionists over Palestinians. lulz

 

[shionoro]

"RaTiOnAl ObSeRvEr"
if you still support Zionists over Palestinians. lulz

Yes, rational observer. Wonder how many rockets flew from Ukraine to Russia or generally Nato states to Russia or how many times Nato attacked it. Oh. Zero.

Guess that is enough to be threatened tho because someone wants to join a club you do not like. Let's support the guy waging the first landwar in Europe since decades.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I see, you get your political opinion from badly made webcomics.

Is this your way of proving you aren't a serious person when it comes to discussion? That's my takeaway. And the meme is pretty accurate regardless.

Fact remains that north stream 2 is a project germany protected vigilantly against US (and other EU9 criticism and that germany refused to send arms even when everyone urged them to do that.
Germany tried its best to avoid conflict and still has to do it now because russia still decided to go full on maniac.

None of your distorted ideas about what nato did or didnt can erase the fact that germans politics towards russia was one of trying to avoid any conflict, even when russia stole crimea.
It was germany that prevented nato troops from being stationed in Ukraine.

Germany Concerned about Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine - DER SPIEGEL

So, are you still buying Russian hydrocarbons or not? Are you sending troops to repel the Russians, or relying on Ukrainian Grandmas and/or Nazis to do the work for you (this is what the world has become)?

Acting like Europe was warmongering and is turning on russia without russia going maniac is just a deep big lie.

A complete fabrication and straw man when no one has said or implied anything of this nature. I've mentioned Ukraine's roll against its own people though, which is very real, and you still haven't acknowledged a few pages back even though I've provided ample evidence of it.

And yes, north stream 2 and the swift ban will hurt germany A LOT.

NS2 ban - as of right now - doesn't hurt Germany at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 27, 2022 ---

"RaTiOnAl ObSeRvEr"
if you still support Zionists over Palestinians. lulz

To be fair, Germans have this weird collective guilt and love to flog themselves for Israel.

I could get into a white guilt corollary, but we probably shouldn't go there right now.

 

[shionoro]

Is this your way of proving you aren't a serious person when it comes to discussion? That's my takeaway. And the meme is pretty accurate regardless.

No it is not, it is one of these typical bullshit memes that make people without any political knowledge lol.

So, are you still buying Russian hydrocarbons or not? Are you sending troops to repel the Russians, or relying on Ukrainian Grandmas and/or Nazis to do the work for you (this is what the world has become)?

Of course, which should tell you that germany is not interested in a war that hurts its energy safety.
So what is your point here? Yes, of course Germany is reliant on Russian gas and KEPT ENHANCING that reliability in the latest years because it DID NOT WANT TO fight with Russia.

But it has to do that now, the thing it never wanted, because russia went insane.

A complete fabrication and straw man when no one has said or implied anything of this nature. I've mentioned Ukraine's roll against its own people though, which is very real, and you still haven't acknowledged a few pages back even though I've provided ample evidence of it.

Yes, it is a deep fabrication that europe ever warmongered against russia.
Don't change topic now. Fact is that Europe, including all european states, never threatened russia and most of the took an open stance to them.
But you still keep acting like Russia was provoked to do this.

NS2 ban - as of right now - doesn't hurt Germany at all.

Yes it does, and so does swift. It means that it will be far, far, far more expensive to do our energy shift to green and hit our climate goals. It was a project many people fought for a lot. If it wouldnt matter, ask yourself why germany would fight the US and other European states over it that all wanted to prevent germany from doing that.
It matters a lot.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Yes it would. It easily would.

Agree to disagree. I hope we never have to find out. If it got that bad we'd have bigger fish to fry so to speak.

 

[Sanity Check]

Because they're always planned to go through protected land reserves that the US signed treaties over.

I think that only holds true for the 4th or 5th leg of the keystone pipeline.

The other 4'ish sections of the pipeline, some of which have been in operation for years, do not go through protected lands and Biden still shut them down.

Pictured above: the average person "fighting for good".

Lacking sufficient basic facts to do any good for anyone.

They can only make things worse through action and lack of knowledge.

 

[M3J]

Yes, rational observer. Wonder how many rockets flew from Ukraine to Russia or generally Nato states to Russia or how many times Nato attacked it. Oh. Zero.

Guess that is enough to be threatened tho because someone wants to join a club you do not like. Let's support the guy waging the first landwar in Europe since decades.

How are you going from me calling you a Zionist (if I remember your stance correctly) to Ukraine and Russia? Many anti-Zionists called out the hypocrisy of Israel supporting Ukraine when Israel literally is doing what Russia is, against the Palestinians.

Agree to disagree. I hope we never have to find out. If it got that bad we'd have bigger fish to fry so to speak.

I have not seen anything that would imply I'm wrong.

 

[Raven]

To be fair, Germans have this weird collective guilt and love to flog themselves for Israel.

I could get into a white guilt corollary, but we probably shouldn't go there right now.

Shonrirorop is just a pro zionist and the only reason he support Ukraine because of zelensky.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

No it is not, it is one of these typical bullshit memes that make people without any political knowledge lol.

You mean like yourself when you thought the issue in East Ukraine wasn't still ongoing from 2014, and were proved wrong on the matter?

In any event, the meme is accurate. That's exactly what's happening. NO ONE IS WILLING TO ACTUALLY FIGHT FOR UKRAINE. Which is what the meme shows. Feel free to show otherwise.

Of course, which should tell you that germany is not interested in a war that hurts its energy safety.
So what is your point here? Yes, of course Germany is reliant on Russian gas and KEPT ENHANCING that reliability in the latest years because it DID NOT WANT TO fight with Russia.

But it has to do that now, the thing it never wanted, because russia went insane.

My point is Germany's hands are tied (hard to look like a badass in a position of weakness). Like I said, they are sending little arms - for others in Ukraine to use, not them - no troops, and all the while are still buying hydrocarbons from the country they are arming against. If that's not a sad state of affairs I don't know what is. But you seem to be excited about how hard Germany is being on Russia or something. IDK, if you can't see it it's probably because you have some sort of political blinders on about this topic.

Yes, it is a deep fabrication that europe ever warmongered against russia.
Don't change topic now. Fact is that Europe, including all european states, never threatened russia and most of the took an open stance to them.
But you still keep acting like Russia was provoked to do this.

LOL. It isn't "changing the topic" to point out how it never was the topic to begin with. NO ONE has said that Russia was on the verge of being invaded or attacked.

Yes it does, and so does swift. It means that it will be far, far, far more expensive to do our energy shift to green and hit our climate goals. It was a project many people fought for a lot. If it wouldnt matter, ask yourself why germany would fight the US and other European states over it that all wanted to prevent germany from doing that.
It matters a lot.

I'd make a 'pipe-dream' joke about your green energy (without nuclear power), but I'm not sure you'd get it.

Either way, a pipeline that isn't in operation and wasn't about to be in operation doesn't affect you - until that time in the future that it might have been operational, which hasn't happened yet.

The spice STILL FLOWS.

 

[xi0]

Guess that is enough to be threatened tho because someone wants to join a club you do not like. Let's support the guy waging the first landwar in Europe since decades.

Not to be pedantic, but war has been going on in Ukraine since 2014 and it happened in Georgia in 2008.

It's not just about "joining a club", there are geographical considerations at play too.


I think this is a good video that sums the situation up pretty concisely

I think that only holds true for the 4th or 5th leg of the keystone pipeline.

The other 4'ish sections of the pipeline, some of which have been in operation for years, do not go through protected lands and Biden still shut them down.

I don't think either of us are structural engineers, so I'm not sure if redrawing plans for the other portions of the line was feasible or not. It's not simply about these land squabbles either though, obviously.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I have not seen anything that would imply I'm wrong.

All I can say is we see the world a bit differently.

Shonrirorop is just a pro zionist and the only reason he support Ukraine because of zelensky.

I wasn't aware. It does make sense though.

Which is probably why he refuses to discuss the neo foot-soldiers being relied upon, which is just a weird means to an end itself.

 

[Sanity Check]

I don't think either of us are structural engineers, so I'm not sure if redrawing plans for the other portions of the line was feasible or not. It's not simply about these land squabbles either though, obviously.

1. keystone is big

2. A 10 second glance at a map shows only a tiny sliver of it affects protected lands

3. Biden shut down the whole thing

4. Gas prices rise as a result

5. Europeans use oil pipelines to transport oil more safely and affordably

6. Americans still hate oil pipelines apparently

7. what does structural engineer have to do with this

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I think that only holds true for the 4th or 5th leg of the keystone pipeline.

The other 4'ish sections of the pipeline, some of which have been in operation for years, do not go through protected lands and Biden still shut them down.

Pictured above: the average person "fighting for good".

Lacking sufficient basic facts to do any good for anyone.

They can only make things worse through action and lack of knowledge.

Personally, this is how *I* see it, but I've been instructed to not talk about useful idiots and virtue-signalers from the virtuous non-virtue-signalers. If I made any reference at all, my words will be rapidly distorted to outrageous proportions. I won't let them know I'm onto them though.

Oh, shit.