American Politics

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I suspect russia is not doing much to damage infrastructure or target civilians.

They want to capture everything intact.

What might be awkward is if Zelensky surrenders before democrats can give him $14 billion in aid.

Zelensky has to collect his pallets of cash, before he pushes the surrender button.

Zero chance he isn't getting a payoff of some sort. Hold out long enough for a final grift to go through. There are forces that are pissed their cash laundromat is being taken away by Putin. That's the real concern.

What's even crazier is all the Trump impeachment bullshit (this was the result of him withholding a weapons/cash transfusion to Ukraine after all) and Biden payoff (no one in their right mind believes Hunter deserved that position or salary) - all of it - all of it is focused on this one country. The Dems are inextricably-tied to Ukraine, and by extension the anti-Russia narrative, but so are a handful of neocon R's (the never-Trump'ers curiously enough...). Ukraine is central to US politics for the better part of a decade now.

And yet, due to the implications, many put their heads in the sand or fingers in their ears when you try to point this out. Our politicians don't care about the fate of Ukraine, and yet have been playing around there with the lives of Ukrainians and poking the bear next door for their own benefit. Now, Putin reacts (an over-reaction) and they run around screaming like it is/was in no way preventable when they are personally involved at various levels.

You don't see so much hyper-focus on any other theater of death worldwide. Or any other relatively-obscure country, like Cambodia or Paraguay. It's always Ukraine, and it's always something going on that smells like shit if you look at it with any amount of objectivity.

What are the odds that everything in our political theater always goes back to Ukraine? Oh, just not the civilians that have been dying for 8 years lol pawns. Or the Nazis. Or the arms deals. Or the energy deals.

 

[Sanity Check]

Zero chance he isn't getting a payoff of some sort. Hold out long enough for a final grift to go through. There are forces that are pissed their cash laundromat is being taken away by Putin. That's the real concern.

What's even crazier is all the Trump impeachment bullshit (this was the result of him withholding a weapons/cash transfusion to Ukraine after all) and Biden payoff (no one in their right mind believes Hunter deserved that position or salary) - all of it - all of it is focused on this one country. The Dems are inextricably-tied to Ukraine, and by extension the anti-Russia narrative, but so are a handful of neocon R's (the never-Trump'ers curiously enough...). Ukraine is central to US politics for the better part of a decade now.

And yet, due to the implications, many put their heads in the sand or fingers in their ears when you try to point this out. Our politicians don't care about the fate of Ukraine, and yet have been playing around there with the lives of Ukrainians and poking the bear next door for their own benefit. Now, Putin reacts (an over-reaction) and they run around screaming like it is/was in no way preventable when they are personally involved at various levels.

You don't see so much hyper-focus on any other theater of death worldwide. Or any other relatively-obscure country, like Cambodia or Paraguay. It's always Ukraine, and it's always something going on that smells like shit if you look at it with any amount of objectivity.

What are the odds that everything in our political theater always goes back to Ukraine? Oh, just not the civilians that have been dying for 8 years lol pawns. Or the Nazis. Or the arms deals. Or the energy deals.

IMO ukraine is similar to the DMZ separating north korea from south korea.

Putin's influence is shown by the area not being filled with defenses, tanks and land mines.

The desperate situation in ukraine makes leaders there more vulnerable to outside foreign corruption. Which some US politicians exploited.

While some maintain that corruption in ukraine is an exception, it may well be the norm.

Similar events were playing out in history 50 years, 100 years if not 1,000 years ago.

Pontius Pilate may have been compromised by special interests similar to Zelensky when he put Jesus on trial 2,000 years ago.

What may stand out most about this is people being determined never to learn from history.

 

[kkck]

I don't think anyone doubts ukraine had pervasive corruption issues... but what does that have to do with anything?

 

[Sanity Check]

I don't think anyone doubts ukraine had pervasive corruption issues... but what does that have to do with anything?

1. People avoid topics of corruption on the basis of them being deemed "depressing" and "negatve".

2. People sleep better at night and have an easier time maintaining relationships and friendships by oversimplifying reality to pretend corruption doesn't exist.

3. A person can read the bible which was written 2,000+ years ago and see how these trends lead to all forms of evil and immorality.

4. 1 samuel 8 defines how those who turn their backs on truth and reality (by turning a blind eye to corruption) also turn their backs on God in the process, which creates conditions rife for evil to flourish.


These are intrinsic topics society has struggled with for thousands of years.

The answers to addressing topics like ukraine are millennia in the making.

 

[M3J]

I still do agree that 'my body my choice' is a bad argument as it can also be used for vaccines.
Because obviously, while not getting vaxxed affects others, so does aborting a baby if you believe the baby is a human that is affected.

No it can't be. Vaccine affects tons of people, as the pandemic has shown.

Abortion does not affect anyone but the pregnant woman, and fetuses are often not considered alive/humans yet, especially since they're not viable. Not to mention, it's the women's decision alone, given they're the ones who bear the risks. It's pretty stupid to compare vaccine mandate to abortion.

They're only passing anti abortion laws.

To scare away democrat voters migrating there from california and new york.

Any resident of missouri can drive out of state to have the procedure done.

The sad & harsh reality is many americans drive across the border to mexico to receive medical care @ reduced cost.

Evidence of this? Because it's pretty much obvious the right hate women and want to control their bodies, even if they die. I'm sure they'd find a way to punish women even if they go out of state. And why would Democrats move to Missouri? What's there?

 

[Sanity Check]

Evidence of this? Because it's pretty much obvious the right hate women and want to control their bodies, even if they die. I'm sure they'd find a way to punish women even if they go out of state. And why would Democrats move to Missouri? What's there?

...



Texas, Florida Gain House Seats After Census Shuffle as California, New York Lose Representation

The U.S. population increased to nearly 331.5 million, with the South growing faster than any other region, according to new census figures.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-04-26/texas-florida-gain-house-seats-after-census-shuffle-as-california-new-york-lose

These abortion laws weren't passed in red states.

Until the above occurred in early 2021.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Vaccine affects tons of people

lol

 

[shionoro]

A third Russian General died. War is going REAAAALLY well Third Russian general killed in Ukraine ‘in sign of weakness among Putin’s forces’ | The Independent

Hilarious. There are plenty of pro-Ukranian propaganda stories coming from Ukraine. You conveniently turn a blind eye to those.

For instance, no one believes their claim of 10k++ Russian units killed.

Anything else, Bagdad Bob?

Babies taken from incubators perhaps?

American intel said yesterday that it thinks up to 6k russians have been killed. 10k might be an exaggeration, but not an absurd one, certainly not as absurd as russia's claim that only 500 soldiers died. Kyiv has not been caught committing to outright lies so far, unlike russia.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2022 ---

Hilarious coming from the resident Bagdad Bob that can't address anything and gets point after point incorrect.

Feel free to, you know, actually point out something I've "made up" or address any actual point I've made head on.

I'll just take your response as the typical cowardly walking away that someone that's unable to defend their position employs.

You made up that no western or easter official thought Ukraine would fall after just some days. They did, because they overestimated the russian army and underestimated Ukraine.

 

[xi0]

Hitler apologia to own the Russians. I guess the German Jews, Slavs, Roma, disabled people, queer people, etc weren't real Germans?.. are people smoking fucking crack?

 

[shionoro]

No it can't be. Vaccine affects tons of people, as the pandemic has shown.

Abortion does not affect anyone but the pregnant woman, and fetuses are often not considered alive/humans yet, especially since they're not viable. Not to mention, it's the women's decision alone, given they're the ones who bear the risks. It's pretty stupid to compare vaccine mandate to abortion.

But that is another argument now alltogether, that it affects more than one person. If you consider a fetus life or as a person, then of course an abortion affects a person or at least a potential life. That is the biggest reason people are against abortion, because they consider a fetus as life.

If you counter it as "her body her choice" then your argument is just as valid for vaccinations, because why would the life of the person affected by your covid disease be more important than the fetus if a fetus is life too?

On average, a person with covid infects about 1 or 2 people and of the people infected, the vast majority survives. If you abort a baby, it dies 100%. So if you do consider a human fetus as human life or potential life, then you surely kill more life by an abortion than by not getting vaxxed.

I am certainly all for getting vaxxed, but i can clearly see how the 'my body my choice' tune rings hollow when you do not extend it to vaccines.

@xi0 Its also completely untrue, of course hitler killed countless of ethnic germans, especially gay people or handicapped people. And any opposition really.

 

[xi0]

So, my personal health needs to be put at a very real risk due to the cost of sick days? Weren't you just arguing for the government spending more money a page or so ago? Have them pick up the bill with more Fed digi-dollars; they are already anyways.

So the argument here is that your personal health is at a greater risk from the vaccine than the disease itself? Obviously that's the kind of thing people need to take up with their doctors then. I don't know what your line of work is, but that's nowhere close to being the case for most of the general population. The vaccine has saved lives. That is not an opinion. If the population was mandated to be vaccinated, the amount of lives saved would be higher. That is not an opinion. From a pragmatic viewpoint, this is the only thing that matters IMO. Not unlike saying that Ukraine should just surrender because it'll save lives.

So, how many hospitals were ACTUALLY overrun? During the worst of the worst even.

I mean, I can point to medical resources that went un or underused at the height of covid. You're describing poor policy reaction, not actual biological or health danger.

In any event, covid doesn't pose any threat to civilization from slightly crowded ER's (the humanity!) to aerosolized EbolaAIDSPoxBlackDeath and anywhere in between. Particularly now with Omicron.

Statistics like excess mortality are not only about deaths from covid, it includes people who weren't given the kind of care they needed due to limited hours, beds, etc. I don't need to bother with anecdotal evidence, crowded or full ICUs, the amount of hospital staff that were out with Covid themselves, it all has a causal link.

You could point to those things yes. I'm sure there were hospitals that were ghost towns depending on when and where. That doesn't invalidate the human cost this pandemic has had.

It is convenient to only look at this at a macro level, but it's also quite callous to be jokingly revisionist about it now that Omicron is here with the help of existing immunity. No, not a single person was saying this was the beginning of the end of civilization. A million people have still died in this country from it. A sizable amount of those deaths were preventable. That is not an opinion.

You say 'cynical' I say 'realistic' - you don't think he has a golden parachute in all this? I can't throw a rock in any US city without hitting someone singing his praises. I thought you were concerned about IMF and other involvement from outside parties anyways. You think Zelenskyy is somehow insulated from outside conflict of interests? That he's deserving of being lionized?

I feel like he would have left already if he was a self-serving coward.

IMF is a general criticism of the western sphere of influence, yes. But... not the most relevant thing now with an armed conflict happening. It's not like it's ending with Ukraine joining NATO.

No, he's doing what a leader should do IMO. I'm not personally interested in lionizing any world leader.

Another problem is the same people mandating it don't really believe that even though it may appear they do. 1. Trump signing $2 T relief bill 2. Brandon self explanatory 3. Newsom , democrat governor of california at superbowl 2022

I don't care what they believe. Just like I don't care if Trump pushed Operation Warp Speed out of purely ego-driven interests. That is Political PR, it does not fucking matte to me.. What matters is whether the result is something useful backed up by data.

 

[M3J]

...



Texas, Florida Gain House Seats After Census Shuffle as California, New York Lose Representation

The U.S. population increased to nearly 331.5 million, with the South growing faster than any other region, according to new census figures.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-04-26/texas-florida-gain-house-seats-after-census-shuffle-as-california-new-york-lose

These abortion laws weren't passed in red states.

Until the above occurred in early 2021.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So you're just assuming things.

lol

yes, let's lol at science because you don't agree with it. Totally makes sense.

But that is another argument now alltogether, that it affects more than one person. If you consider a fetus life or as a person, then of course an abortion affects a person or at least a potential life. That is the biggest reason people are against abortion, because they consider a fetus as life.

If you counter it as "her body her choice" then your argument is just as valid for vaccinations, because why would the life of the person affected by your covid disease be more important than the fetus if a fetus is life too?

On average, a person with covid infects about 1 or 2 people and of the people infected, the vast majority survives. If you abort a baby, it dies 100%. So if you do consider a human fetus as human life or potential life, then you surely kill more life by an abortion than by not getting vaxxed.

I am certainly all for getting vaxxed, but i can clearly see how the 'my body my choice' tune rings hollow when you do not extend it to vaccines.

@xi0 Its also completely untrue, of course hitler killed countless of ethnic germans, especially gay people or handicapped people. And any opposition really.

It is not. I already explained it, and most women and science don't consider fetus life or a person. I literally said multiple people are affected by one's decision to get vaccinated. You're not going to be affected if your neighbor gets an abortion, but if she's not vaccinated, there's a chance she can spread that to you.

You do know covid spreads to others? And it's killed a lot of people so far, while a woman getting an abortion hasn't.

It doesn't ring hollow at all unless you make silly comparisons and use weird logic.

 

[shionoro]

It is not. I already explained it, and most women and science don't consider fetus life or a person. I literally said multiple people are affected by one's decision to get vaccinated. You're not going to be affected if your neighbor gets an abortion, but if she's not vaccinated, there's a chance she can spread that to you.

You do know covid spreads to others? And it's killed a lot of people so far, while a woman getting an abortion hasn't.

It doesn't ring hollow at all unless you make silly comparisons and use weird logic.

The scientific definition does not matter for a moral argument, just like law does not. Whether something is technically not a murder or a crime does not prevent us of deeming it imoral, so why would the scientific definition of life mean that someone should not consider a fetus as life?

Factually, many people do consider a fetus as life. Ask women who WANTED their child and lost it whether they feel it was life or not. It was to them.

If you believe in a fetus being life or potential life (in any case worthy of being defended), then it has the right to live just like your neighbour does. Whether an abortion kills my neighbour is not the question, it kills life (in my definition).
When my neighbour kills his wife it does not affect me, it is still immoral and he should not do it.

The fact that covid spreads is a different type of argument all together. You started with "it affects other", and so does abortion (if you consider a fetus worthy of protection) or murder, even if it does not always affect me.

"My body my choice" means: It is the woman's body and if she chooses steps for her body that lead to the death of her fetus, that is her choice.
But that choice clearly affects another life or potential life. If that is purely based on her being allowed to make choices for her own body no matter the consequences, then it is kind of a cop out to say a covid denier may not do the same.

 

[DeadCosmos]

Ofcourse fetus is life, what it comes down to is the significance of the life and how much you care! Many of us eat meat and dairy from animal. I don't see the big deal killing the fetus any stage! Just like we are able to put down dogs, we should be able to put down humans!

 

[shionoro]

Ofcourse fetus is life, what it comes down to is the significance of the life and how much you care! Many of us eat meat and dairy from animal. I don't see the big deal killing the fetus any stage! Just like we are able to put down dogs, we should be able to put down humans!

It is a question of definition. For some people it is life, for some it is not.
For some people, human life is special (most) for some it is not.

This is a moral question, not a factual one. Facts can only form the way your moral logic implies what you deem good or bad.

To me, the question of abortion is easy because legalizing abortion does not make the numbers of abortions rise. Having a good healthcare system that supports both abortion but also sexual education and sexual healthcare tends to prevent abortions and teen pregnancies. That is one reason why it should be legal.

But "my body my choice" implies that the body is sacred and your reign over your own body can never be impaired. But it can in many practical circumstances. The argument cannot work unless each and every instance of these circumstances is similarly outlawed.

 

[M3J]

The scientific definition does not matter for a moral argument, just like law does not. Whether something is technically not a murder or a crime does not prevent us of deeming it imoral, so why would the scientific definition of life mean that someone should not consider a fetus as life?

Factually, many people do consider a fetus as life. Ask women who WANTED their child and lost it whether they feel it was life or not. It was to them.

If you believe in a fetus being life or potential life (in any case worthy of being defended), then it has the right to live just like your neighbour does. Whether an abortion kills my neighbour is not the question, it kills life (in my definition).
When my neighbour kills his wife it does not affect me, it is still immoral and he should not do it.

The fact that covid spreads is a different type of argument all together. You started with "it affects other", and so does abortion (if you consider a fetus worthy of protection) or murder, even if it does not always affect me.

"My body my choice" means: It is the woman's body and if she chooses steps for her body that lead to the death of her fetus, that is her choice.
But that choice clearly affects another life or potential life. If that is purely based on her being allowed to make choices for her own body no matter the consequences, then it is kind of a cop out to say a covid denier may not do the same.

Yes it does matter, if you want to know what's considered life. Why and how is fetus a life? What makes it a life?

Yeah, women who wanted kids, as opposed to women who don't. And how is abortion less immoral than letting women die because of something they couldn't control? Why do you or I get a say over this, and not the woman herself? The fetus is growing in a woman's body, who harbors all the risk, it's her right to make the choice, and no one else's. It is the question if you're going to compare the vaccine mandate to abortion because again, the decision to get vaccinated affects so many people (and the decision to wear a mask as well) while the decision to abort only affects the woman.

Potential life doesn't mean life though, and even if we go by anti-abortionists' definition, it's still two lives, as opposed to countless of lives due to the covid denier/anti-masker/vax's selfishness and ignorance.

 

[shionoro]

Yes it does matter, if you want to know what's considered life. Why and how is fetus a life? What makes it a life?

Yeah, women who wanted kids, as opposed to women who don't. And how is abortion less immoral than letting women die because of something they couldn't control? Why do you or I get a say over this, and not the woman herself? The fetus is growing in a woman's body, who harbors all the risk, it's her right to make the choice, and no one else's. It is the question if you're going to compare the vaccine mandate to abortion because again, the decision to get vaccinated affects so many people (and the decision to wear a mask as well) while the decision to abort only affects the woman.

Potential life doesn't mean life though, and even if we go by anti-abortionists' definition, it's still two lives, as opposed to countless of lives due to the covid denier/anti-masker/vax's selfishness and ignorance.

It does not because a definition is not a fact. There are reasons to see a virus as life, there are reasons against it and science decided to not see it as life. But it could just aswell have decided the opposition (or might still decide that) not based on some inherent truth but on what view yields more insights in their minds. Just like that, it makes sense to not see a fetus as life, but that is completely irrelevant for the moral point of view on whether a fetus is just as worthy of protection as a person is.

Why does the mother get to say whether the child dies or not but the father is not asked in that question?
With your logic, i ask why someone has a say about a covid deniers body. The child and in many cases the father are far more impacted with far more reliability than I am impacted if someone in my train is not vaxxed when i am vaxxed and wearing a mask.

 

[ninjabot]

Ofcourse fetus is life, what it comes down to is the significance of the life and how much you care! Many of us eat meat and dairy from animal. I don't see the big deal killing the fetus any stage! Just like we are able to put down dogs, we should be able to put down humans!

A fetus is a life, sure. But that's not the point of contention that we pro-choice folk are hung up on. I'd never question whether a fetus is a life or not. Neither would M3J or xi0.

I do however, question whether it's a person. Personhood is the key here.

If you believe in a fetus being life or potential life (in any case worthy of being defended), then it has the right to live just like your neighbour does. Whether an abortion kills my neighbour is not the question, it kills life (in my definition).
When my neighbour kills his wife it does not affect me, it is still immoral and he should not do it.

Your neighbor's wife is a person. Your neighbors wife's fetus (depending on the age), isn't.

No life has intrinsic worth. When we mourn a death, we're mourning the loss of a person, not that person's life. That's why people are far less reluctant to pull the plug on relatives who are doomed to spend the rest of their life in a vegetative state, than they are with allowing someone who still has all their faculties to commit suicide. Because the invalid, despite still being a human life, is effectively dead in any sense that matters... where as the suicidal person is actually throwing away the potential experiences that make life worthwhile.

As for covid: you making a decision concerning your body (which is your right), that leads to endangering people around you (which is not your right) is the crux of the hatred for people that wouldn't get the vaccine. It is "your body and your choice" only up until your choice harms someone else's body.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

And to get ahead of the "But you're harming the unborn child's body! What about their bodily autonomy!?" My response is that you've gotta be a person to have personhood. That people have bodily autonomy. People. And depending on the age of the fetus, it isn't people yet. It's a proto-people. A psuedo-people. An almost people.

But not a people. Not yet. And admittedly, defining personhood is pretty tricky. I'm partial to the "If you can't recognize your personhood you aren't a person" argument. But even that gets into some yikes-y argumentation.

 

[shionoro]

Your neighbor's wife is a person. Your neighbors wife's fetus (depending on the age), isn't.

No life has intrinsic worth. When we mourn a death, we're mourning the loss of a person, not that person's life. That's why people are far less reluctant to pull the plug on relatives who are doomed to spend the rest of their life in a vegetative state, than they are with allowing someone who still has all their faculties to commit suicide. Because the invalid, despite still being a human life, is effectively dead in any sense that matters... where as the suicidal person is actually throwing away the potential experiences that make life worthwhile.

As for covid: you making a decision concerning your body (which is your right), that leads to endangering people around you (which is not your right) is the crux of the hatred for people that wouldn't get the vaccine. It is "your body and your choice" only up until your choice harms someone else's body.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

And to get ahead of the "But you're harming the unborn child's body! What about their bodily autonomy!?" My response is that you've gotta be a person to have personhood. That people have bodily autonomy. People. And depending on the age of the fetus, it isn't people yet. It's a proto-people. A psuedo-people. An almost people.

But not a people. Not yet. And admittedly, defining personhood is pretty tricky. I'm partial to the "If you can't recognize your personhood you aren't a person" argument. But even that gets into some yikes-y argumentation.

But that is just a definition, whether something is life or not. Quite a sizeable chunk of people see a fetus as life worthy of protection. That cannot be waved away by saying that it is not legally a living person yet. If you see unborn life as worthy of protection and the fetus as a person (and many americans and other people do) then you are of course harming another person that is not going to be born.

And harming other people is absolutely my right, as i am allowed to move around with a flu through an old peoples' home and i am also allowed to have one night stands without a condom even if i never tested myself for any STD. It is illegal to give someone aids on purpose, it is not illegal to just not care until you infected another person.
Similarly, it is not illegal for parents to smoke at home, even if it has detrimental effects on their children.

We are allowed to do various things that are healthdecisions that endanger other people directly or indirectly.

 

[DeadCosmos]

Not everyone goes outside, some people stay in their houses and actually social distance and try to stay clean! They don't need the vaccine! The people who need the vaccine are the ones who don't wanna help their fellow people by socially distancing and wearing masks like Brandon and Trump! My body, my choice! You can get your vaccine and mask though! Im staying home like a responsible citizen!