American Politics

[M3J]

Doubling down doesn't make it less transphobic. Mathematically, it just makes it twice as transphobic.

any good source on pro-transgender women in sports view? Because I'm not sure how to feel about this, tbh

 

[xi0]

I think the main issue with that topic is that it inevitably gets into litigating people's hormone levels

 

[M3J]

I think the main issue with that topic is that it inevitably gets into litigating people's hormone levels

Yeah but like, I don't know what to think because transgender women do have advantages of men, but also equality. I just want to see the arguments so I understand it better, especially since I'd rather be an ally.

 

[xi0]

Yeah but like, I don't know what to think because transgender women do have advantages of men, but also equality. I just want to see the arguments so I understand it better, especially since I'd rather be an ally.

Yeah I get it, I'm similar. I just don't think it needs to be yet another source of ridicule for people. *cough, cough*. Or claims that people just wanting to live their lives are somehow taking advantage of people's good will.

 

[ninjabot]

I'm in the same boat as all of you, but we're all aware that it's not the gender expression that's the problem: it's the biological difference of their bodies. My only point I'm getting at is that we can talk about these problems without mis gendering these women.

Instead of saying "Transwomen are women, but not when playing sports. Then they're men", a more empathetic and considerate phrasing would be "Transwomen are women, but AMAB women are born with physical advantages that make competitive sports with AFAB women unfair."

Tone policing? Sure. I'm still right though.

EDIT: As for pro transwomen in sports stuff, like xi0 said it comes down to hormone levels and what has been done, and can be done, to balance the strengths of these women. It's much harder to weaken transwomen that have had a natural puberty already. But if they took puberty blockers and transitioned before that point it's a lot closer.

 

[kkck]

What is AMAB and AFAB?

 

[ninjabot]

Assigned Male At Birth. Assigned Female At Birth. It's just another way of saying biological male and biological female.

 

[kkck]

How is that more empathetic than simply saying biological male or female? It's absurd that saying biological male or female in a non derogatory way in a situation where that specific information is relevant to what is happening is somehow cruel or offensive. Specially if the implied understanding is that they are the exact same thing.

 

[ninjabot]

How is that more empathetic than simply saying biological male or female? It's absurd that saying biological male or female in a non derogatory way in a situation where that specific information is relevant to what is happening is somehow cruel or offensive. Specially if the implied understanding is that they are the exact same thing.

Did I say that? I said it was unempathetic to say "A transwoman is a woman, except for when playing sports. Then she's a man." Hell, even saying it the way you said it would've been better than the way Sanity Check said it, but it isn't hateful enough for him so he chose the more inflammatory phrasing.

I just use AMAB and AFAB as opposed to saying biological because it's the current lingo.

 

[kkck]

Did I say that? I said it was unempathetic to say "A transwoman is a woman, except for when playing sports. Then she's a man." Hell, even saying it the way you said it would've been better than the way Sanity Check said it, but it isn't hateful enough for him so he chose the more inflammatory phrasing.

Honestly, I didn't even realize my phrasing could be more or less inflammatory than what sanity said in this case. Not that I meant my words to be in any way hateful or inflammatory.

 

[ninjabot]

Honestly, I didn't even realize my phrasing could be more or less inflammatory than what sanity said in this case. Not that I meant my words to be in any way hateful or inflammatory.

It's just, there are different ways to refer to transwomen. The preferable one? Woman. The least preferable? Man. It's like... when referring to an adoptive mother, you'd never bother to clarify that the mother is a not the biological mother of the child they're rearing. There's no need to remind her of the lack of biological connection unless it's absolutely necessary for medical reasons. Using the same logic for sports means just calling them transwomen. Sanity Check said, specifically, that transwomen are women except for when playing sports. My point of contention is that they're still women when playing sports. It's just the circumstance of their birth affects the people around them and should be taken into consideration. And that can be done without calling them men.

All l'm saying is that the term transwoman comes with the implication that they are a biological man, so there's no reason to misgender them. Just call them a woman, or a transwoman in situations where we need to acknowledge the biological difference.

Do you disagree with any of this?

 

[Sanity Check]

Assigned Male At Birth. Assigned Female At Birth. It's just another way of saying biological male and biological female.

Spending years living as a man before transitioning

Allows them to retain biological athletic advantages over women.

Its like a woman taking steroids to boost her testosterone levels to where a man's would naturally be.

 

[ninjabot]

Only if they had a male puberty. That's the point of puberty blockers. If a transwoman transitions before puberty, they won't have the musculature or bone density that they would have had if they'd lived years as a biological man first.

So if you care at all about those sports, then it's time to stop demonizing puberty blockers.

 

[Sanity Check]

If a transwoman transitions before puberty

I'm not a fan of people saying they're gay, bi, pansexual or trans before puberty.

How could they know their sexual orientation & what gets them off when it hasn't developed yet?

 

[ninjabot]

I'm not a fan of people saying they're gay, bi, pansexual or trans before puberty.

How could they know their sexual orientation & what gets them off when it hasn't developed yet?

You're conflating sexual orientation with gender. Sexual attraction starts before puberty. People know what they're attracted to before hitting puberty. And people have a good idea of what's considered feminine or masculine before hitting puberty because society beats us over the head with it. Girls wear dresses, boys wear pants. Girls play with Barbies, boys play with Nerf guns. These gender norms are being abolished, which is a good thing, but they'll never be completely abolished.

 

[Sanity Check]

Sexual attraction starts before puberty.

Is it sexual attraction.

Or merely emulating environmental and cultural cues.

Dogs hump pplz legs -- it doesn't make human legs their sexual orientation.

 

[M3J]

Yeah I get it, I'm similar. I just don't think it needs to be yet another source of ridicule for people. *cough, cough*. Or claims that people just wanting to live their lives are somehow taking advantage of people's good will.

I agree. Though, I do feel like the bigotry from men come more from fear of not being seen as masculine or being homosexual by others because they're interested in a transgender woman, and that they just pretend to care about transgender women playing sports with women to hide that.

I'm in the same boat as all of you, but we're all aware that it's not the gender expression that's the problem: it's the biological difference of their bodies. My only point I'm getting at is that we can talk about these problems without mis gendering these women.

Instead of saying "Transwomen are women, but not when playing sports. Then they're men", a more empathetic and considerate phrasing would be "Transwomen are women, but AMAB women are born with physical advantages that make competitive sports with AFAB women unfair."

Tone policing? Sure. I'm still right though.

EDIT: As for pro transwomen in sports stuff, like xi0 said it comes down to hormone levels and what has been done, and can be done, to balance the strengths of these women. It's much harder to weaken transwomen that have had a natural puberty already. But if they took puberty blockers and transitioned before that point it's a lot closer.

Yeah, the biological difference is mainly why I'm on the fence and confused.

 

[kkck]

It's just, there are different ways to refer to transwomen. The preferable one? Woman. The least preferable? Man. It's like... when referring to an adoptive mother, you'd never bother to clarify that the mother is a not the biological mother of the child they're rearing. There's no need to remind her of the lack of biological connection unless it's absolutely necessary for medical reasons. Using the same logic for sports means just calling them transwomen. Sanity Check said, specifically, that transwomen are women except for when playing sports. My point of contention is that they're still women when playing sports. It's just the circumstance of their birth affects the people around them and should be taken into consideration. And that can be done without calling them men.

All l'm saying is that the term transwoman comes with the implication that they are a biological man, so there's no reason to misgender them. Just call them a woman, or a transwoman in situations where we need to acknowledge the biological difference.

Do you disagree with any of this?

To me "transwoman are women except for when playing sports" does not sound hateful. Unless this is meant to be some sort of joke or meant in some way ironically. To me this whole thing is always weird because it's a pretty hard sell to disassociate "transwoman" from "man" or more specifically "male"... Even if you make a distinction between gender (man/woman) and sex (male/female) if the context is sex and it is not meant in a hurtful way then a male vs transwoman thing seems like a super weird hill to die on. Sure, if it's done in a hurt or insulting way then call it out and fight it and whatever but referring to something factual in a respectful manner should be ok.

On that note, I don't believe there's room for transwomen (males) or intersex folk in a female league. The whole point of a female league is that females wouldn't be up against males in general to give them an honest chance to excel. Technology hasn't gotten to the point where a sex change is anything more than cosmetic even after hormone treatments... I can't fathom anyone looking at the Lia Thomas case and not thinking this is utter insanity. Lia is buffer than most men even post hormone treatment... Intersex folk are trickier because there are a lot of varieties of them but... how do you get to a point where you account for all types, and have criteria to decide which ones have an unfair advantage over females and which ones don't? Maybe this bit is more workable than I think though.

 

[ninjabot]

To me "transwoman are women except for when playing sports" does not sound hateful.

Hateful might be too strong of a term. Insensitive is more accurate in my opinion. You're taking their gender away from them because it doesn't match their biological sex, which is textbook transphobia. Simply calling them a transwoman implies they're biologically a man already so there's no reason to misgender them.

Do you really, honestly not see the difference between saying "That woman is trans" and "That woman is really a man"? If you were talking about a group of black people would you call them black people, or "the blacks"?

Unless this is meant to be some sort of joke or meant in some way ironically. To me this whole thing is always weird because it's a pretty hard sell to disassociate "transwoman" from "man" or more specifically "male"... Even if you make a distinction between gender (man/woman) and sex (male/female) if the context is sex and it is not meant in a hurtful way then a male vs transwoman thing seems like a super weird hill to die on. Sure, if it's done in a hurt or insulting way then call it out and fight it and whatever but referring to something factual in a respectful manner should be ok.

The bolded is what I'm saying: that transwoman implies biological man, so there's no reason to misgender them by calling them a man. Just call them a transwoman. Even when they're playing sports. Calling them a woman is preferable, but for scientific accuracy, call them a transwoman. Just don't misgender them. You have to actually put forth the effort to misgender them by calling them a man when transwoman already brings up in people's minds: "Oh, this woman was originally a man."

Here's a question: How do you respectfully call a transwoman a man? Assume you're talking to a transwoman now. Imagine I'm a transwoman. Call me a man in the most respectful way you can think of.

On that note, I don't believe there's room for transwomen (males) or intersex folk in a female league. The whole point of a female league is that females wouldn't be up against males in general to give them an honest chance to excel. Technology hasn't gotten to the point where a sex change is anything more than cosmetic even after hormone treatments... I can't fathom anyone looking at the Lia Thomas case and not thinking this is utter insanity. Lia is buffer than most men even post hormone treatment... Intersex folk are trickier because there are a lot of varieties of them but... how do you get to a point where you account for all types, and have criteria to decide which ones have an unfair advantage over females and which ones don't? Maybe this bit is more workable than I think though.

We can prevent/remove these unfair advantages and then it stops being a problem. This is why we have puberty blockers because prior to puberty, boys and girls are almost identical when it comes to musculature and bone density. If a biological male prevents their masculine puberty, starts their transition, and then is allowed to go through puberty, they'll have a "weaker" puberty that causes their growth to match that of women more closely so by the time they reach adulthood, there is no colossal difference between the transwoman and the biological woman.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2022 ---

Is it sexual attraction.

Or merely emulating environmental and cultural cues.

It's sexual attraction.

Dogs hump pplz legs -- it doesn't make human legs their sexual orientation.

Are dogs human beings?

 

[xi0]

U.S. Senate approves bill to make daylight saving time permanent

The U.S. Senate on Tuesday passed legislation that would make daylight saving time permanent starting in 2023, ending the twice-annual changing of clocks in a move promoted by supporters advocating brighter afternoons and more economic activity.

www.reuters.com

When the argument is about "kids going to school in the dark" and not about how we can better use resources so no kid has to be on the bus stop before dawn, you know the premise for this archaic shit is flawed. Just look at all of the East Asian countries or anywhere else they got rid of DST and you can still see functioning societies.