American Politics

[ninjabot]

How is it going to get any worse than Biden allowing the genocide to happen?

By pursuing a genocide, instead of simply allowing it to happen. It's one thing to not care if a genocide is happening. It's another thing altogether to aid in it happening because your voter base hates Muslims.

It's "Letting a genocide happen" vs. "helping a genocide happen".

Which one is worse?

Palestinian Americans and Muslims know Trump won't help them. I'd say more, but I don't want to speak on their behalf, especially when I'm pretty sure my memory's not accurate.

Sure. I just wanted to make sure we all understood it. Because none of us are claiming that Biden is super helpful to Muslim Americans or Palestinian Americans specifically. We're just saying we know who definitely isn't.

You and I both know that he'll do what his voter base says, and they hate Muslims.

Reason #1 why I was Biden for 2024 until last month, I believe.

However, Biden keeps throwing Muslims under the bus. He keeps bringing up Hamas and ignores photos and videos of Zionists' violence in Gaza and in USA. Do you know how bad Biden looked when he brought up seeing pictures of beheaded babies, ONLY for the White House to walk that back and say it never happened? He's even calling protesters violent, but he's ignoring the violence actually started or committed by Zionists.

Biden has an unenviable position right now, sure. He has to respond in certain ways for obvious political reasons.

Israel are our allies. Hamas is attacking our allies. We have allegiance with Israel, not Palestine. Meaning outside of being "the good guys", we don't have any obligation to the Gaza strip. Any aid offered to quell the plight of the Palestinian people is a privilege. Politically we don't owe them anything, but we DO owe allegiance to our literal allies.

There's no room to make a moral stance and say "Hey Israel, we're breaking up with you if you don't stop killing Palestinian children." It just doesn't work like that.

Biden has barely done anything to help people. He's continuing to help Israel commit genocide and giving them billions of dollars while Palestinians get so little, like expired food. That's a huge part of the problem, Biden isn't doing what anyone with compassion should, for Palestinians.

Trump knows he'd lose tons of support from his voter base with that risk, because the left and the Muslims won't vote for him. There are a minority that'd be dumb enough to, but overall they know he's a horrible president. However, Trump has carried out or tried to carry out his campaign promises, so I dunno here.

Barely anything is not nothing. Not only will Trump do nothing to help Palestinians, but he'll actively try to hurt them. THAT'S why he's worse than Biden. It's literally:

Biden: I'm not going to stop the genocide, but I'll help Palestinians a little bit.
Trump: I'm not going to stop the genocide. I'm not going to help Palestinians at all. And I'm going to actively try to hurt Palestinians when the opportunity presents itself.

But it'd be Democrats letting Trump win if they continue to stay with Biden. By forcing people to vote for Biden or shaming people into voting for Biden, you're the ones actually throwing away democracy. The refusal to vote for him isn't just to spite him or Dems, but it's because those that don't want to vote for him don't believe in him.

No we aren't, because we're not the ones that are going to let the guy who tried to overthrow the election once already win. We're voting for the right person. The people that won't are sabotaging the election. Those protests you love so much are done when Trump is back in office. He gassed protestors so that he could take a picture with a bible. He didn't give a shit about their right to protest, his right to virtue signal was more important.

I don't want to vote for Biden either. I don't believe in him either. But I have a responsibility as an American citizen to fight for the nation I live in, and the only true weapon I have, is my vote. For every woman who's gonna die trying to force birth from an ectopic pregnancy because they can't get an abortion. For every gay and lesbian person who's turned away from adoption agencies because 90% of adoption agencies are religious organizations and won't allow gays to adopt children that need loving families. For every trans person turned down for gender-affirming care or are banned from entering spaces that their expressed gender aligns with. For every person of color who's kids are being raised in a public schooling system where conservatives want to rewrite history to take away anything in the curriculum that explains systemic racism or the racist origins of America. For everyone that's not a straight white Christian male that doesn't want to live under a theocracy, whether they believe in a different God or no God at all.

These are the things I'm fighting for, and that fight is an uphill battle with a Republican as president. And the only thing Biden has to do in order to motivate you to vote for him, is NOT be the guy that wants to stand in the way of all of these things. That's good e-fucking-nough for anyone who claims to be any kind of ally to marginalized groups. If you're going to cry about Biden not doing enough, what you're really saying is you're fucking selfish, because your one SPECIFIC pet peeve isn't being tended to, and you're willing to abandon all the people I listed because Biden isn't perfect.

And in this particular situation, that one pet peeve is... the Israel/Palestine conflict.

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ARE ALREADY DYING!! That's the problem! No one is going to see Trump doing any worse than Biden, except the only difference might be Trump actually doing more to stop the genocide for whatever self-serving reason!

But you're not responsible for those. You WILL be responsible for every single one that Trump is actively choosing to cause though if you help him into office by not voting for Biden. So go right ahead and kill some Palestinian kids for the sake of social clout. I hope their suffering is worth it.

 

[kkck]

I would maintain this is pretty simple. The US has no third party option. At least not in the upcoming elections barring something cataclysmic happening in US politics. The options for the next US president are biden or trump, at this point I doubt it matters what trump is even guilty of.

College protests have their place in the news cycle but as far as voting goes protesters don't matter since at best they probably won't vote at high enough rates.

Even if they did there's no real chance this moves trump since even trying to get this vote would conflict with his pretty secure evangelical/christian vote. And those as far as I know are unlikely to waver in their israel support.

democrat's best chance at more pro-palestine policy remains biden.

 

[ninjabot]

Yep. It's still a slim chance, but slim is better than none, in my honest opinion.

 

[catagon87]

Saying it's not the average voter's problem is wild when our tax money is literally being used to fund genocide instead of programs that can help us.

The USA gave Israel $3.5B total last year. The total budget for the USA was $6.3T last year. To bring this to a micro-economic perspective,
3,500,000,000/6,300,000,000,000 = 0.00056, or 0.05% of the budget.
The median family budget in the USA is about $72,000.
0.05% of $72,000 is about $40, or about $0.10 daily.

If all of Israel's aid were recalled and distributed equally amongst US citizens it would equal to $10 per person.

If the entirety of the $61B given in foreign aid in 2023 were distributed equally amongst US Citizens, it'd be $179 per person.
If you used every penny of the total budget (bearing in mind that this money also goes to places like South Sudan that have it just as rough as Gaza) toward all existing student loan debt, you'd reduce the total by about 3%, and it'd go right back up to where it was within a year due to continued borrowing by students.

1% of the total budget on any given year goes to "International Affairs." This is also not entirely monetary. For instance, you lamented us giving Ukraine aid but I don't recall you acknowledging that the aid was not in the form of dollars, but munitions (older munitions, at that). It's not like we can distribute bullets around to the needy.

Taxes are the price of living in any given country and the government is allowed (via the Constitution) to spend this on Geopolitical interests, which could include funding the only country that doesn't hate us in a given region as a buffer against Iran/Russia/China/North Korea.

Again. Voters do not give a fuck about Gaza, and Israel getting aid is not the thing standing between them having zero student loans, free healthcare, a house, or whatever you might think it is they're entitled to. This whole argument you're making is an emotional appeal and not logical. You seem to have zero understanding of Geopolitics and consequences. Israel isn't a "fund or don't fund" it's a "fund or someone else will fund." Like them or not they're a global leader in missile defense, cyber security, and various other armaments.

Here's how your dream scenario would likely play out:

1. USA cuts funding to Israel.
2. Israel struggles to fund their Iron Dome which keeps them safe from external threats and bombardments.
3. Due to point 3, and the fact that Hamas (possibly Iran too, since USA isn't backing them anymore) shoots thousands of missiles into Israel pretty often, Israel starts taking real damage from enemy forces.
4. Israel enters "shit or get off the pot" mode and actually performs an ethnic cleansing of Gaza to eliminate the constant missiles entering their airspace.
5. The region completely explodes and both Palestinians and Jews (and Arabs) lose many - mostly citizens - because of the Hamas vs Israel game.

We're a carrot and a stick to Israel. They need us to survive. US Presidents have successfully put pressure on Israel to get them to the table with Palestine. USA influence is what got Arafat and Rabin to the table in the Oslo Accords, and the Madrid Conference. Biden has put pressure on israel in more ways than one. One of those is pushing Israel toward a ceasefire and protecting innocent civilians. You act like he's over there performing an ethnic cleansing himself, when in fact he's doing very much all that's within his power to do.

So no, what's wild to me is your complete and utter lack of understanding in how anything in this world works beyond what appeases your own mind. If you had your way Gaza would be a fucking hole in the ground that, if we're lucky, would have history books referencing it about half a century from now.

--- Double Post Merged, May 6, 2024, Original Post Date: May 6, 2024 ---

I would maintain this is pretty simple. The US has no third party option. At least not in the upcoming elections barring something cataclysmic happening in US politics. The options for the next US president are biden or trump, at this point I doubt it matters what trump is even guilty of.

The USA is definitely stuck with two parties. I'd love to see something like rank-choice voting implemented but it'd probably require a constitutional amendment, and we're never getting one of those again.

democrat's best chance at more pro-palestine policy remains biden.

This point is what really drives it home. You don't get to say you care about the Palestinians while simultaneously smirking at the idea of handing the 2024 election to Donald Trump. As individuals we have to work within the confines of what we have available, and no one person (even the president) can fix the situation in Gaza.

Trump sees the war as a PR crisis, and Biden sees it as a humanitarian crisis. Trump is all for having anyone who was protesting on campuses expelled from campuses, as well as having any peaceful pro-Palestine protesters deported and their student visas revoked. Trump wants Israel to get in there and "end things fast" (which we all know what that means). Biden wants to reduce civilian casualties and work toward a two-state solution. Anyone who wants to give their vote to Trump (by not voting for Biden) and claims they care about Palestinians may as well be over there be piloting the drones doing the killings themselves.

 

[kkck]

Again. Voters do not give a fuck about Gaza, and Israel getting aid is not the thing standing between them having zero student loans, free healthcare, a house, or whatever you might think it is. This whole argument you're making is an emotional appeal and not logical. You seem to have zero understanding of Geopolitics and consequences. Israel isn't a "fund or don't fund" it's a "fund or someone else will fund." Like them or not they're a global leader in missile defense, cyber security, and various other armaments.

Here's how your dream scenario would likely play out:

1. USA cuts funding to Israel.
2. Israel struggles to fund their Iron Dome which keeps them safe from external threats and bombardments.
3. Due to point 3, and the fact that Hamas (possibly Iran too, since USA isn't backing them anymore) shoots thousands of missiles into Israel pretty often, Israel starts taking real damage from enemy forces.
4. Israel enters "shit or get off the pot" mode and actually performs an ethnic cleansing of Gaza to eliminate the constant missiles entering their airspace.
5. The region completely explodes and both Palestinians and Jews (and Arabs) lose many - mostly citizens - because of the Hamas vs Israel game.

We're a carrot and a stick to Israel. They need us to survive. US Presidents have successfully put pressure on Israel to get them to the table with Palestine. USA influence is what got Arafat and Rabin to the table in the Oslo Accords, and the Madrid Conference. Biden has put pressure on israel in more ways than one. One of those is pushing Israel toward a ceasefire and protecting innocent civilians. You act like he's over there performing an ethnic cleansing himself, when in fact he's doing very much all that's within his power to do.

So no, what's wild to me is your complete and utter lack of understanding in how anything in this world works beyond what appeases your own mind. If you had your way Gaza would be a fucking hole in the ground that, if we're lucky, would have history books referencing it about half a century from now.

--- Double Post Merged, May 6, 2024, Original Post Date: May 6, 2024 ---

The USA is definitely stuck with two parties. I'd love to see something like rank-choice voting implemented but it'd probably require a constitutional amendment, and we're never getting one of those again.



This point is what really drives it home. You don't get to say you care about the Palestinians while simultaneously smirking at the idea of handing the 2024 election to Donald Trump. As individuals we have to work within the confines of what we have available, and no one person (even the president) can fix the situation in Gaza.

Trump sees the war as a PR crisis, and Biden sees it as a humanitarian crisis. Trump is all for having anyone who was protesting on campuses expelled from campuses, as well as having any peaceful pro-Palestine protesters deported and their student visas revoked. Trump wants Israel to get in there and "end things fast" (which we all know what that means). Biden wants to reduce civilian casualties and work toward a two-state solution. Anyone who wants to give their vote to Trump (by not voting for Biden) and claims they care about Palestinians may as well be over there be piloting the drones doing the killings themselves.

You forgot an important detail in that scenario: Israel has nukes. Any country would use nukes when faced with an existential crisis like you mention.

Yeah, i don't see that as possible. I'd settle for a simple majority deciding who is president but according to US folk that's apparently tyranny...

 

[catagon87]

You forgot an important detail in that scenario: Israel has nukes. Any country would use nukes when faced with an existential crisis like you mention.

Yeah, i don't see that as possible. I'd settle for a simple majority deciding who is president but according to US folk that's apparently tyranny...

There's a lot that's being overlooked in this discussion for sure, including the fact that Zionism is a response to hostility towards Jews that was very much a thing. Jews are raised to be victims and a lot of it is rooted in history. Was giving modern-day Israel to the Jews the answer? Probably not the best one, but the 40s and 50s were a different time and I think allies were apprehensive about making Germany pay reparations to their victims given how Hitler took power.

I think the most likely situation if the USA pulled out would be that Russia or China would step up to be Israel's sugar daddy. It'd give them access to some of the best weapon development in the world. It wouldn't change anything about Palestine's situation other than the fact that the USA would lose a critical ally in the Middle East, a ton of international influence, and our enemies would likely gain much stronger weapon systems. You'd end up with the same result except the average US citizen would be worse off.

 

[kkck]

There's a lot that's being overlooked in this discussion for sure, including the fact that Zionism is a response to hostility towards Jews that was very much a thing. Jews are raised to be victims and a lot of it is rooted in history. Was giving modern-day Israel to the Jews the answer? Probably not the best one, but the 40s and 50s were a different time and I think allies were apprehensive about making Germany pay reparations to their victims given how Hitler took power.

I think the most likely situation if the USA pulled out would be that Russia or China would step up to be Israel's sugar daddy. It'd give them access to some of the best weapon development in the world. It wouldn't change anything about Palestine's situation other than the fact that the USA would lose a critical ally in the Middle East, a ton of international influence, and our enemies would likely gain much stronger weapon systems. You'd end up with the same result except the average US citizen would be worse off.

I feel like that's the bit of history that's not being ignored on the issue. Unless we get to holocaust denial... Jewish migration to israel started some 20 years before WW2... And what went on at the time it's incredibly relevant to the current shitshow, as much as WW2 events... The creation of israel is still the worst geopolitical mistake of the 20th century but it's still not going anywhere in the end.

I don't have a very specific set of events I think would happen if such a dramatic shift were to happen but it's clear that the US losing its most important military ally in the region would have a big effect on geopolitics... I suppose russia and china (and india?) going to town is a given but how exactly I don't know.

 

[catagon87]

I feel like that's the bit of history that's not being ignored on the issue. Unless we get to holocaust denial... Jewish migration to israel started some 20 years before WW2... And what went on at the time it's incredibly relevant to the current shitshow, as much as WW2 events... The creation of israel is still the worst geopolitical mistake of the 20th century but it's still not going anywhere in the end.

I agree with you. My main point was that you have a group of trained victims with nukes, missile defense systems, fighter jets, and some of the most advanced military systems on the planet. The answer is definitely not to push them into desperation (which cutting funding would do). We can all sit around and have a "Fuck Zionism" circle jerk, but Zionism is a side effect of the hostilities they face in the world that are very real, and it's not going to go away if the USA pulls out of Israel.

I don't have a very specific set of events I think would happen if such a dramatic shift were to happen but it's clear that the US losing its most important military ally in the region would have a big effect on geopolitics... I suppose russia and china (and india?) going to town is a given but how exactly I don't know.

China would jump at the opportunity to try and broker a two-state deal. They'd fail miserably because they don't know what an undertaking that is (if it were easy it'd of been done already). They'd also steal a ton of IP in the process. Russia would jump at the opportunity to use Israel as a way to enhance their own offensive capabilities and sow chaos for the west. They'd tap into Israel's cyber-security capabilities to make life hell for everyone else. They'd also have to reconsider some of their current alliances (Iran for instance). I don't think India has any skin in the game.

Bottom line is if you live in the USA your life would definitely not improve. For one the money used on things like foreign aid doesn't just return to the people in a vacuum. There'd be a butterfly effect in the world and it's unlikely that any Palestinian lives would be saved.

 

[M3J]

By pursuing a genocide, instead of simply allowing it to happen. It's one thing to not care if a genocide is happening. It's another thing altogether to aid in it happening because your voter base hates Muslims.

It's "Letting a genocide happen" vs. "helping a genocide happen".

Which one is worse?

Biden is helping a genocide happen. Allowing it to happen is just as bad as helping a genocide happen, especially against a population that can't fight back.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/

Biden Wants Arms Deals With Israel to Be Done in Complete Secrecy, Without Congress

“I’ve never seen anything like it,” said Josh Paul, a former top State Department official.

truthout.org

The Biden administration once again bypasses Congress on an emergency weapons sale to Israel

For the second time this month, the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel.

apnews.com

Biden has proven to be evil. Trump has not proven he's that evil, yet.

Sure. I just wanted to make sure we all understood it. Because none of us are claiming that Biden is super helpful to Muslim Americans or Palestinian Americans specifically. We're just saying we know who definitely isn't.

Biden is in no way helpful, at all. Muslims and Palestinian Americans know a lot more than you think they do, especially when Dems keep harassing them with the same points you've been making.

Biden has an unenviable position right now, sure. He has to respond in certain ways for obvious political reasons.

Israel are our allies. Hamas is attacking our allies. We have allegiance with Israel, not Palestine. Meaning outside of being "the good guys", we don't have any obligation to the Gaza strip. Any aid offered to quell the plight of the Palestinian people is a privilege. Politically we don't owe them anything, but we DO owe allegiance to our literal allies.

There's no room to make a moral stance and say "Hey Israel, we're breaking up with you if you don't stop killing Palestinian children." It just doesn't work like that.

No, Biden is a pure Zionist, and he's stated that clearly.

Hamas is not attacking anyone. They're defending themselves and Palestinians, while Israel is scapegoating Hamas to justify the genocide. That's a fact. USA being Israel's ally does not justify helping them murder innocent people, especially when other countries have called out Israel and even severed ties with them.

US is an evil empire, and Biden is as evil as they come. Claiming that offering aid to Palestinian people is a privilege is a horrible statement to make, and it's an example of how liberals are hurting Biden's chances of winning. Once again, you guys are showing that you're no better than Trump or his supporters.

Barely anything is not nothing. Not only will Trump do nothing to help Palestinians, but he'll actively try to hurt them. THAT'S why he's worse than Biden. It's literally:

Biden: I'm not going to stop the genocide, but I'll help Palestinians a little bit.
Trump: I'm not going to stop the genocide. I'm not going to help Palestinians at all. And I'm going to actively try to hurt Palestinians when the opportunity presents itself.

Biden is actively hurting Palestinians and doing a horrible job of sending aid to them. Barely any better than your scenario because he's sending expired food, and trucks that are being blocked by Zionists.

Trump might be better in that he could help Palestinians just to look good.

No we aren't, because we're not the ones that are going to let the guy who tried to overthrow the election once already win. We're voting for the right person. The people that won't are sabotaging the election. Those protests you love so much are done when Trump is back in office. He gassed protestors so that he could take a picture with a bible. He didn't give a shit about their right to protest, his right to virtue signal was more important.

I don't want to vote for Biden either. I don't believe in him either. But I have a responsibility as an American citizen to fight for the nation I live in, and the only true weapon I have, is my vote. For every woman who's gonna die trying to force birth from an ectopic pregnancy because they can't get an abortion. For every gay and lesbian person who's turned away from adoption agencies because 90% of adoption agencies are religious organizations and won't allow gays to adopt children that need loving families. For every trans person turned down for gender-affirming care or are banned from entering spaces that their expressed gender aligns with. For every person of color who's kids are being raised in a public schooling system where conservatives want to rewrite history to take away anything in the curriculum that explains systemic racism or the racist origins of America. For everyone that's not a straight white Christian male that doesn't want to live under a theocracy, whether they believe in a different God or no God at all.

These are the things I'm fighting for, and that fight is an uphill battle with a Republican as president. And the only thing Biden has to do in order to motivate you to vote for him, is NOT be the guy that wants to stand in the way of all of these things. That's good e-fucking-nough for anyone who claims to be any kind of ally to marginalized groups. If you're going to cry about Biden not doing enough, what you're really saying is you're fucking selfish, because your one SPECIFIC pet peeve isn't being tended to, and you're willing to abandon all the people I listed because Biden isn't perfect.

And in this particular situation, that one pet peeve is... the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Thanks for proving you don't believe in a democracy. Biden is not the right person, and even if he was, the many people who believe that shouldn't have to vote for him if they don't think he is. Biden has to earn the votes, not be obligated just because Trump is worse. Biden also doesnt' give a shit about the protesters' right to protest. The only difference is that Trump would encourage violence outright, while Biden has passively encouraged violence against protesters. And if we're being fair, Trump has earned the votes more than Biden has, in 2024.

Everything that's been happening in several states under Biden? Women have been arrested for miscarriages, and transgender women are still being murdered, under Biden. That argument won't fly with the left. Maybe if BIden fought harder or looked like he was fighting hard, then maybe the left might have still voted for him, but Biden was losing support even before Oct 7.

Selfish because I want other people to stop being murdered?? That makes no sense. Nothing about the Palestinians being murdered benefits me or most supporters in the US, but we care because it's called being a fucking human.

But you're not responsible for those. You WILL be responsible for every single one that Trump is actively choosing to cause though if you help him into office by not voting for Biden. So go right ahead and kill some Palestinian kids for the sake of social clout. I hope their suffering is worth it.

I will not be responsible for any of these, nor will those who did not vote. Biden and Dems alone would be.

Besides, PALESTINIAN KIDS ARE ALREADY BEING KILLED!! I know you don't understand much about this or its history, but Biden has literally been helping Israel kill Palestinian children for months!

Unlike Biden and Harris, I don't care about social clout. I have humanity and morals (to a degree, which we talked about many pages ago). If you can look at pictures and videos of destruction and deaths that Israel has caused and still say the things you are now, you're beyond fucked up. Especially when you refuse to understand how many promises Biden broke or didn't carry out, and how much little effort he's put into trying to carry out his promises.

The USA gave Israel $3.5B total last year. The total budget for the USA was $6.3T last year. To bring this to a micro-economic perspective,
3,500,000,000/6,300,000,000,000 = 0.00056, or 0.05% of the budget.
The median family budget in the USA is about $72,000.
0.05% of $72,000 is about $40, or about $0.10 daily.

If all of Israel's aid were recalled and distributed equally amongst US citizens it would equal to $10 per person.

I googled how much it'd cost to end homelessness and how much it'd cost to end hunger. While $3.5billion would not be enough for either, it'd still be a step forward in that direction. Same with student debt, when so many people are struggling.

Your calculations make no sense.

Again. Voters do not give a fuck about Gaza, and Israel getting aid is not the thing standing between them having zero student loans, free healthcare, a house, or whatever you might think it is they're entitled to. This whole argument you're making is an emotional appeal and not logical. You seem to have zero understanding of Geopolitics and consequences. Israel isn't a "fund or don't fund" it's a "fund or someone else will fund." Like them or not they're a global leader in missile defense, cyber security, and various other armaments.

I never equated Israel getting money to it being obstacle to zero student loans, free healthcare, and other things. But to those that aren't blind, it makes no sense to claim US does not have money to help its people out, while giving foreign countries billions of dollars in aid.

Due to point 3, and the fact that Hamas (possibly Iran too, since USA isn't backing them anymore) shoots thousands of missiles into Israel pretty often, Israel starts taking real damage from enemy forces.

If Israel wasn't attacking Iran or Palestine, then Iran and Hamas would not be attacking them. Hamas also can barely afford to do much.

This point is what really drives it home. You don't get to say you care about the Palestinians while simultaneously smirking at the idea of handing the 2024 election to Donald Trump. As individuals we have to work within the confines of what we have available, and no one person (even the president) can fix the situation in Gaza.

Trump sees the war as a PR crisis, and Biden sees it as a humanitarian crisis. Trump is all for having anyone who was protesting on campuses expelled from campuses, as well as having any peaceful pro-Palestine protesters deported and their student visas revoked. Trump wants Israel to get in there and "end things fast" (which we all know what that means). Biden wants to reduce civilian casualties and work toward a two-state solution. Anyone who wants to give their vote to Trump (by not voting for Biden) and claims they care about Palestinians may as well be over there be piloting the drones doing the killings themselves.

Stupid take. You have not been keeping up with the current events, or you're just going by whatever biased shill you read.

You forgot an important detail in that scenario: Israel has nukes. Any country would use nukes when faced with an existential crisis like you mention.

Yeah, i don't see that as possible. I'd settle for a simple majority deciding who is president but according to US folk that's apparently tyranny...

Which is probably a shame as Clinton would have won 2016, as she had the majority of votes despite her bad campaigning.



Also, recently Hamas agreed to a ceasefire with conditions, but Israel refused, and now the families of hostages are even more pissed off at Israel. At this point, if people think Israel actually cares about the hostages, then they're just brainwashed dumbasses.

 

[catagon87]

I googled how much it'd cost to end homelessness and how much it'd cost to end hunger. While $3.5billion would not be enough for either, it'd still be a step forward in that direction. Same with student debt, when so many people are struggling.

Your calculations make no sense.

Maybe just learn how to do basic math, and how the government works since you obviously have no clue. Let me guess. You googled how much it’d cost and found some study that ignores the fact that the majority of homeless have untreated mental illness and drug problems.

Stupid take. You have not been keeping up with the current events, or you're just going by whatever biased shill you read.

Oh I’m sorry, I forgot the only thing you know how to read are virtue signaling tweets. Do you need me to go find some of those so you can continue lying to yourself about how you don’t want all Palestinians eradicated?

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2024, Original Post Date: May 7, 2024 ---

Also, recently Hamas agreed to a ceasefire with conditions, but Israel refused, and now the families of hostages are even more pissed off at Israel. At this point, if people think Israel actually cares about the hostages, then they're just brainwashed dumbasses.

Why don't you elaborate on the conditions? Oh, because they're bullshit conditions that Israel (and to be fair, any governing body) would have never agreed to. It's the equivalent of me saying "I have accepted a proposal to buy Microsoft for $1. Microsoft hasn’t accepted the deal. What a bunch of assholes!" The proposal was for 30 Hamas militants in exchange for every one kidnapped civilian. The two entities are never going to agree on an equitable ceasefire leaving Hamas in power in Gaza is not an option for Israel.

I never equated Israel getting money to it being obstacle to zero student loans, free healthcare, and other things. But to those that aren't blind, it makes no sense to claim US does not have money to help its people out, while giving foreign countries billions of dollars in aid.

Every developed country gives foreign aid. It's suggested that developed nations give 0.7% of their national income to foreign aid. The average that wealthy nations gives is around 0.4%, and the USA is at about 0.2%. You have zero understanding of how foreign aid actually works. The USA doesn't just "give foreign countries billions of dollars in aid." Approximately 21% of foreign aid goes to foreign governments. The rest is to non-profits and other organizations that work within under-developed nations to provide services. Foreign aid in general has resulted in a better world, and that's more important than our first world problems. Among those things are:

• Reduced infant death rates
• Increased life expectancy (by 7 years in just two decades)
• Rates of extreme poverty have fallen drastically
• Smallpox eliminated, polio nearly eliminated, malaria deaths cut in half in less than two decades

 

[ninjabot]

Biden is helping a genocide happen. Allowing it to happen is just as bad as helping a genocide happen, especially against a population that can't fight back.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/

It's not the same. Morality is a matter of intent. And his intention is to aid the allies he's meant to aid while not actively contributing to the genocide.

Biden is in no way helpful, at all.

So the aid that Palestine has gotten from him, and the port they're working on building is not aid? I'm trying to de-escalate, but if you're not willing to be honest, why should I try?

No, Biden is a pure Zionist, and he's stated that clearly.

Hamas is not attacking anyone. They're defending themselves and Palestinians, while Israel is scapegoating Hamas to justify the genocide. That's a fact. USA being Israel's ally does not justify helping them murder innocent people, especially when other countries have called out Israel and even severed ties with them.

US is an evil empire, and Biden is as evil as they come. Claiming that offering aid to Palestinian people is a privilege is a horrible statement to make, and it's an example of how liberals are hurting Biden's chances of winning. Once again, you guys are showing that you're no better than Trump or his supporters.

At this point, Zionism doesn't mean anything. It's just a slur by now. I don't take it seriously anymore, thanks to the left. And Hamas are not defending themselves. October 7th was not self-defense. And yes, Palestinian aid IS a privilege. No one owes them anything except Israel, and Israel isn't going to give them anything.

Thanks for proving you don't believe in a democracy. Biden is not the right person, and even if he was, the many people who believe that shouldn't have to vote for him if they don't think he is. Biden has to earn the votes, not be obligated just because Trump is worse. Biden also doesnt' give a shit about the protesters' right to protest. The only difference is that Trump would encourage violence outright, while Biden has passively encouraged violence against protesters. And if we're being fair, Trump has earned the votes more than Biden has, in 2024.

That's not how the current political system works. Biden doesn't have to be "the right person", he just has to be the candidate put forth by the democratic party. There ARE no other candidates. You can't keep claiming it's the democratic party's fault for not giving you a presidential candidate to vote for because he IS the democratically elected candidate. He's the president. You're the one claiming you don't want the candidate chosen by the people. That's YOU saying you want someone other than who was democratically chosen. That's YOU being anti-democratic.

Everything that's been happening in several states under Biden? Women have been arrested for miscarriages, and transgender women are still being murdered, under Biden. That argument won't fly with the left. Maybe if BIden fought harder or looked like he was fighting hard, then maybe the left might have still voted for him, but Biden was losing support even before Oct 7.

We already went over why Roe v. Wade isn't his fault, and he can't stop every trans murder, but things have gotten better under Biden. Remember that Trump took away military service member's abilities to use military resources to transition, and even tried to ban trans servicemen/women altogether.

Biden is actively hurting Palestinians and doing a horrible job of sending aid to them. Barely any better than your scenario because he's sending expired food, and trucks that are being blocked by Zionists.

But he IS doing it. Trump will not. I repeat: Trump will not.

Trump might be better in that he could help Palestinians just to look good.

You don't believe that, you're just not willing to admit that Biden is the correct choice if you care about Palestinians. And you're gambling the lives of Palestinian children on a "might"? The idea that someone who politically has more to gain by hurting Muslims "might" decide to help Muslims instead? Be real.

Selfish because I want other people to stop being murdered?? That makes no sense. Nothing about the Palestinians being murdered benefits me or most supporters in the US, but we care because it's called being a fucking human.

Selfish because you're willing to destroy the lives of thousands in order to do it. You care too much. You care to the point of self-destruction. You're gonna burn this country down for the sake of helping people you can't help.[/quote]

 

[catagon87]

It's not the same. Morality is a matter of intent. And his intention is to aid the allies he's meant to aid while not actively contributing to the genocide.

So the aid that Palestine has gotten from him, and the port they're working on building is not aid? I'm trying to de-escalate, but if you're not willing to be honest, why should I try?

At this point, Zionism doesn't mean anything. It's just a slur by now. I don't take it seriously anymore, thanks to the left. And Hamas are not defending themselves. October 7th was not self-defense. And yes, Palestinian aid IS a privilege. No one owes them anything except Israel, and Israel isn't going to give them anything.

That's not how the current political system works. Biden doesn't have to be "the right person", he just has to be the candidate put forth by the democratic party. There ARE no other candidates. You can't keep claiming it's the democratic party's fault for not giving you a presidential candidate to vote for because he IS the democratically elected candidate. He's the president. You're the one claiming you don't want the candidate chosen by the people. That's YOU saying you want someone other than who was democratically chosen. That's YOU being anti-democratic.

We already went over why Roe v. Wade isn't his fault, and he can't stop every trans murder, but things have gotten better under Biden. Remember that Trump took away military service member's abilities to use military resources to transition, and even tried to ban trans servicemen/women altogether.

But he IS doing it. Trump will not. I repeat: Trump will not.

You don't believe that, you're just not willing to admit that Biden is the correct choice if you care about Palestinians. And you're gambling the lives of Palestinian children on a "might"? The idea that someone who politically has more to gain by hurting Muslims "might" decide to help Muslims instead? Be real.

Selfish because you're willing to destroy the lives of thousands in order to do it. You care too much. You care to the point of self-destruction. You're gonna burn this country down for the sake of helping people you can't help.

At this point arguing will only lead to a foregone conclusion. Hamas can do no wrong in his eyes and Israel (and by association, Biden) can do no right. If Biden did exactly what he wanted tomorrow he'd be complaining that he didn't do it fast enough and that he only did it to "give into pressure." If Hamas filmed themselves skull-fucking innocents and then publicly took credit for doing so he'd argue that it's Israeli propaganda and Zionists plots. I honestly should have stopped biting at the point of the weirdly pro-Russia comments but I'm a sucker for a good argument sometimes. The conversation at this point reminds me of what it's like to argue with my elderly relatives. I show them statistics, articles with direct quotes from unbiased sources and they show me internet memes with random Joe-Schmo from Twitter validating their extremely niche opinion on some controversial topic. Honestly, it's like arguing with my grandmother who refuses to acknowledge that Japan committed atrocities in the WW2. The arguments are eerily similar.

Any legitimate sources you pull will be "biased."
Any random tweet remotely validating his belief will be the holy grail of sources.
If anyone actually did cave to what he wanted he'd run things through the ol' mental gymnastics algorithm and find a way to be pissed off about how they caved to what he wanted.

Bottom line is a good majority of his energy is devoted to caring about a people, and that's respectable. The way the respect is carried out, however, where any dissenting opinion is stupid, idiotic, and anyone who disagrees or isn't also making it their top priority in life is a genocidist, is doing a disservice to the movement he cares about and I honestly hope it's contained to this forum and not some broader stage. It's the type of thing that causes the pro-Palestine movement to not be taken seriously. Politics is about being realistic and managing expectations. It's not an "all or nothing" where people either get 100% of what they want or everyone else is stupid.

 

[ninjabot]

At this point arguing will only lead to a foregone conclusion. Hamas can do no wrong in his eyes and Israel (and by association, Biden) can do no right. If Biden did exactly what he wanted tomorrow he'd be complaining that he didn't do it fast enough and that he only did it to "give into pressure." If Hamas filmed themselves skull-fucking innocents and then publicly took credit for doing so he'd argue that it's Israeli propaganda and Zionists plots. I honestly should have stopped biting at the point of the weirdly pro-Russia comments but I'm a sucker for a good argument sometimes. The conversation at this point reminds me of what it's like to argue with my elderly relatives. I show them statistics, articles with direct quotes from unbiased sources and they show me internet memes with random Joe-Schmo from Twitter validating their extremely niche opinion on some controversial topic. Honestly, it's like arguing with my grandmother who refuses to acknowledge that Japan committed atrocities in the WW2. The arguments are eerily similar.

I've known this for months, but I can't let it go... or else I'm the same as the people I disagree with. The kids at the protest who wouldn't speak to Destiny because they were so confident they were right, and there was nothing they were missing? I never wanna be 100% confident about anything. I never want to be so confident that I'm not willing to listen to opposing ideas. Even the ones that come from my political opponents.

Which means I'm obligated to subject myself to this bullshit. I can't call myself a true skeptic otherwise.

Bottom line is a good majority of his energy is devoted to caring about a people, and that's respectable.

It reads as white guilt though, and he isn't even white. And he did seem like someone who's just very, very empathetic... for a while. But then he started wishing for the death of Zionists and the destruction of Israel. That's not empathy for Palestinians, that's hate for Israel.

 

[M3J]

Oh I’m sorry, I forgot the only thing you know how to read are virtue signaling tweets. Do you need me to go find some of those so you can continue lying to yourself about how you don’t want all Palestinians eradicated?

I understand you're way too brainwashed to understand anything that's going on right now, but Biden himself has been proving why he doesn't deserve to win, not tweets. That's the same line Trump supporters love to use against people who don't support Trump - "you're brainwashed into hating him because of mainstream media!!" when Trump's own tweets and words FROM PRO-TRUMP SOURCS are why I oppose him becoming a president.


I heard him talk in this thread, and that cinched it. He deserves to lose, and if Dems stick with this lying piece of shit, they deserve to lose too. I'm not going to vote for a liar who aids in a genocide and contributes to Islamophobia.

It's not the same. Morality is a matter of intent. And his intention is to aid the allies he's meant to aid while not actively contributing to the genocide.

And as evidence shows, he is actively contributing to the genocide. His intent is to allow innocent people to be murdered and a group to be wiped out just so an evil country can get what it wants, and only because it serves USA's interest. Israel is Nazi Germany, and it's actually sad that people aren't seeing this when Israel itself has admitted that they're committing genocide.


Also let me make it clear that after this post I will not be talking about this subject anymore. This was when I was still likely going to vote for Biden but now I will not be voting for him, or at all. I'd recommend not replying to this post, even if you'll read it, cuz it'll just be a waste of everyone's time.

The speech he gave is why he can go to hell for all I care. So many lies, and all to protect Israel.

So the aid that Palestine has gotten from him, and the port they're working on building is not aid? I'm trying to de-escalate, but if you're not willing to be honest, why should I try?

You don't know enough about this to be honest. If you're starving, and I give you unhealthy food that's expired, that's not aid. If I send in a truck to get you supplies but do nothing about people blocking that truck from reaching you, that's not helping anyone.

As for the port, we'll see. I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually an excuse to get US military in Gaza and do even more damage. I'd like to be wrong, and it'd be great if they really were there to help Gazans.

At this point, Zionism doesn't mean anything. It's just a slur by now. I don't take it seriously anymore, thanks to the left. And Hamas are not defending themselves. October 7th was not self-defense. And yes, Palestinian aid IS a privilege. No one owes them anything except Israel, and Israel isn't going to give them anything.

How is Zionism a slur? lol

sigh

You don't know anything about the history of the conflict. Hamas were created few decades in response to Israel's violence against Palestinians. October 7 and everything is because of what Israel has done to Palestine, and Israel wants Hamas to exist. Hamas are the perfect scapegoat, and you prove that perfectly by focusing on Hamas.

Hamas would not exist if Israel was not violent. Hamas would not exist if Zionists did not kick Palestinians out of their homes and off their lands. Hamas would not exist if Zionists got along with Palestinians.

USA should be obligated to give Palestine as much aid as possible given the fact that they're contributing to the genocide. It's not a "privilege."

That's not how the current political system works. Biden doesn't have to be "the right person", he just has to be the candidate put forth by the democratic party. There ARE no other candidates. You can't keep claiming it's the democratic party's fault for not giving you a presidential candidate to vote for because he IS the democratically elected candidate. He's the president. You're the one claiming you don't want the candidate chosen by the people. That's YOU saying you want someone other than who was democratically chosen. That's YOU being anti-democratic.[/quote[
Yes it does. Biden can step down and let someone else run for presidency, or the Democrats can deny Biden. There are other candidates who can run. This has happened before. Biden was democratically elected in 2020, and ever since then his approval ratings have gone down.

No it's not. The left are saying they won't vote unless Democrats replace Biden with someone else. They don't support Biden. That's democratic. You telling the left that they HAVE to vote for Biden otherwise they're supporting Trump and trying to force the left to vote for Biden is more anti-democratic. The left don't want to vote for someone, while libs are forcing others to vote for someone.

We already went over why Roe v. Wade isn't his fault, and he can't stop every trans murder, but things have gotten better under Biden. Remember that Trump took away military service member's abilities to use military resources to transition, and even tried to ban trans servicemen/women altogether.

I never said it was his fault in the post you replied to, I merely stated the facts. Women in lots of states lost their rights under his presidency, and at least one state have been stripping away rights of minorities. And going by Biden's speeches and tweets, he's barely put in effort to fight back.

But he IS doing it. Trump will not. I repeat: Trump will not.

Let me know when Biden sends actual aid, not quarter-assed aid that doesn't help Palestinians at all. And the fact that his supporters like you think Palestinians should be grateful for what they get and that it's a privilege to get aid is just hurting him even more. I don't know if I said this before, but it's not just Biden hurting his own reelection chances, it's supporters like you who are ignoring everything negative under Biden just because you don't want Trump.

Did anyone reply to my link showing Biden passed executive orders to continue building the wall that Trump started? Family separation continuing under Biden, that Trump was rightfully being attacked for?

You don't believe that, you're just not willing to admit that Biden is the correct choice if you care about Palestinians. And you're gambling the lives of Palestinian children on a "might"? The idea that someone who politically has more to gain by hurting Muslims "might" decide to help Muslims instead? Be real.



Selfish because you're willing to destroy the lives of thousands in order to do it. You care too much. You care to the point of self-destruction. You're gonna burn this country down for the sake of helping people you can't help.

sigh

I don't get how someone who's CONTRIBUTING to the genocide is the correct choice. I don't get how someone constantly LYING about the conflict to protect Israel and demonize Palestinians and Muslims is a good choice.

Democrats are already doing that. Again, several states saw people lose their rights under Biden. Selfish would be me voting for Biden just because I don't like Trump. Selfish would be me sticking with Biden instead of going with another candidate. Liberals are the selfish ones.

It reads as white guilt though, and he isn't even white. And he did seem like someone who's just very, very empathetic... for a while. But then he started wishing for the death of Zionists and the destruction of Israel. That's not empathy for Palestinians, that's hate for Israel.

sigh

As I explained, I do not like seeing murderers be alive to keep doing damage. I've seen pictures and videos of the destruction that Zionists have caused, and I've seen how Zionists act towards Palestinians, Muslims, and Jews who don't agree with them. I think I made it clear that I don't have any morals when it comes to wanting pieces of shit dead. If Zionists got along with Palestinians and were in no way violent or genocidal, there'd be no issue.

Zionist soldiers of decades ago shared stories of how they raped Palestinian women and girls and how they tortured and killed Palestinians. That made my blood boil. And now Zionists are happily going to Israel to help commit genocide against a population that can't defend itself, much less do anything to Israel. You might be okay with innocent people being killed, I am not.

 

[catagon87]

I understand you're way too brainwashed to understand anything that's going on right now, but Biden himself has been proving why he doesn't deserve to win, not tweets. That's the same line Trump supporters love to use against people who don't support Trump - "you're brainwashed into hating him because of mainstream media!!" when Trump's own tweets and words FROM PRO-TRUMP SOURCS are why I oppose him becoming a president.


I heard him talk in this thread, and that cinched it. He deserves to lose, and if Dems stick with this lying piece of shit, they deserve to lose too. I'm not going to vote for a liar who aids in a genocide and contributes to Islamophobia.

What kind of word salad is this? Who is even talking about Trump? Biden wasn't even mentioned in my post. The only one using the word brainwashed is you. I'll bite and address the brainwashed accusation though. I'm not nearly as invested into this issue/topic as you. That is not to say that I do not educate myself on the topic. I have a natural curiosity about many things and I read a lot. I'm also a fairly empathetic person. I try not to presume I have the right answers, but I feel like I'm fairly good at identifying the wrong answers. I've also certainly had a point in my early 20s where I thought I knew it all (politically) and anyone who disagreed with me was wrong, brainwashed, uneducated, and insert-random-pejorative. The fact of the matter is that in that time I was brainwashed by relatives, social media, and the media in general. It took a bit of time and experiencing life to be able to look back and realize that now. My point is that I was a lot like you are now. It was obviously a different time with different issues, but I was very all-or-nothing in my thought patterns and anyone who didn't fit my exact expectations was garbage in my mind.

To the point about me not understanding what's going on right now - you seem to make a lot of assumptions about my level of knowledge not based on a lack of knowledge itself, but based on a non-conformity to your own opinions. You really think I don't know the history of the region? Why Hamas was elected? Biden's stance on the situation? You don't think I know that Netanyahu is a shitty person? None of that shit matters to me. The difference is I understand nuance. Netanyahu is a shit-sucking dictator of Israel who cares about politics more than human life. Hamas is an elected government that operates like a terror organization fueled by hatred for Jews. Both things can simultaneously be true. I don't agree with your assertion that handing an election to Trump as a way of protesting Biden's endorsement of Israel in this conflict is the correct answer. I don't agree with your assertion that Biden would be worse than or equal to Trump on handling matters with respect to Palestine and Israel. We have a system in place in the USA that I understand well, and I work within its bounds. I will vote for Biden because based on the evidence I have observed I have come to the conclusion that there will be less loss of life under his presidency than a Trump presidency. This has nothing to do with being brainwashed, or lacking an understanding of what's going on over there.

You seem to think you've achieved some level of clairvoyance and understanding on a topic when in reality you're just becoming a hateful person who self-radicalized as a result of an over-indulgence of social media. You cherry-pick the media you consume in such a way as to validate your belief system (and thus never challenge it). This is just a hobby of yours at this point. I mean, it's fine that you feel strongly, but you seem to be pigeonholed into your beliefs to the point where you somehow think Hamas is a noble organization when they aren't exactly quiet about wanting to kill Jews and non-Muslims. You're pretty quick to dismiss narratives you don't like and embrace those you do.

 

[wojak]

Looking at world conflicts, to me it does seem that there were less wars going on during trump presidency compared to Biden, Obama or Bush presidency. Not old enough to remember Clinton presidency.

 

[M3J]

Seeing how liberals responded to Trump vs. the way they respond to Biden, I'm beginning to think if Trump endorsed Biden, they would turn on Biden.

Trump builds a wall, and he gets blasted for it. Biden continues that project, and not a peep. I feel like Trump is being severely underestimated, based on how the Dems are acting vs. how republican voters are invigorated to vote for Trump.

 

[ninjabot]

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2024, Original Post Date: May 9, 2024 ---

Looking at world conflicts, to me it does seem that there were less wars going on during trump presidency compared to Biden, Obama or Bush presidency. Not old enough to remember Clinton presidency.

It's not for lack of trying. Dude dropped a MOAB. He didn't sit by and watch other people do it, he did it himself.

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2024 ---

But maybe Trump will help the Palestinians, right?

 

[wojak]

It's not for lack of trying. Dude dropped a MOAB. He didn't sit by and watch other people do it, he did it himself.

I don’t see how it contradicts my point though. We now have more wars and global conflicts than Trumps presidency. Peaceful neolib democrats.

 

[ninjabot]

I don’t see how it contradicts my point though. We now have more wars and global conflicts than Trumps presidency. Peaceful neolib democrats.

What is it that you think Trump did to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine? And are you aware that Israel and Palestine have been in conflict for longer than either of us have been alive?