American Politics

[ninjabot]

 

[M3J]

Harris really needs to stop sucking up to the moderates and republicans and start trying to get the left back. Without them, I highly doubt she'll win.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 25, 2024 ---

 

[xi0]

yikes is this true?

Yeah, saying something like "good ideas are good regardless of where they came from" IIRC

But how can they moralize if they don't use the most emotionally-charged language? Otherwise it's super hard to ward off criticism of Palestine. Besides that though, I didn't think we were arguing the material conditions of Gaza. I thought we were arguing whether or not it was worth clarifying that sexual assault wasn't full-on rape. That was MY gripe.

I just disagree fundamentally that moralizing the issue is in some way detrimental to someone's point. In the face of everything that's been occurring for the past year, what exactly is justifiable criticism of Palestine? What about those criticisms changes anything about the discussion over this tragedy? What's the fucking point of debating it at all? Unless you have a rooting interest in the zionist project or feel the need to cape for our foreign policy decisions regarding it? People want to treat months of carpet bombing and psychological warfare as some sort of philosophical/sociological conundrum.

Speaking of "moralizing", I think if you're running for president and you use obviously charged language to refer to crimes that may or may not have happened and have yet to be substantially investigated, and you are doing that to reframe your policy positions in a way that absolves you of any culpability, you're a dishonest piece of shit. And sure, politicians make their living being dishonest pieces of shit. But what is the excuse for doing it in regards to this topic? Where is the commentary on what's been done to Palestinian women for generations? And yes, this is whattaboutism. But to me, it's completely justified if you at once claim you're doing everything in your power to protect Gazans, do next to nothing, and then pretend what has happened to them is justified because of October 7th. Or even worse, frame their choices as being between Israel continuing what they're doing or having affordable groceries.

To be clear: I wasn't saying "don't call it a genocide because it's not a genocide". I'm saying "Don't try to derail the argument at hand by throwing the G word around to cut off criticism" That's what you got points for: not being a rhetorical rat.

As far as I remember that wasn't a conscious decision. I could have easily done it and it would have changed nothing about the topic or my point IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2024 ---

The sad part is you could completely remove foreign policy topics from the discussion and this would still be true. But I guess it'll be easier to scapegoat specific groups of people instead.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2024 ---

Speaking of @shionoro 's discussion about luxury tax or wealth redistribution.

And there will still be democrats who argue against such things lol. Musk is treated like satan, yet a billionaire donor that supports Democrats is somehow fine because they might have some better opinions.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 28, 2024 ---

If Trump wins, this is the exact type of person who will clutch pearls at him continuing what is already happening

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 28, 2024 ---

The quoted tweet is from someone who runs a Dem Super PAC btw. Left-leaning voters are supposed to look at these people saying this shit and pretend they're not essentially Fifth Column.

 

[ninjabot]

You know, these single-issue voters can't seem to make up their mind. They want to say "I can't vote for a pro-genocide candidate, so I'm not giving you my vote." But then they also wanna say "By the way, if you lose, it's not because I didn't vote for you, it's because you wouldn't sacrifice moderate votes for me."

Even weirder, they tend to only harp on a potential loss. "It's your fault for not trying to earn my vote." But what if she doesn't lose?

What if she wins?

I just disagree fundamentally that moralizing the issue is in some way detrimental to someone's point. In the face of everything that's been occurring for the past year, what exactly is justifiable criticism of Palestine? What about those criticisms changes anything about the discussion over this tragedy? What's the fucking point of debating it at all? Unless you have a rooting interest in the zionist project or feel the need to cape for our foreign policy decisions regarding it? People want to treat months of carpet bombing and psychological warfare as some sort of philosophical/sociological conundrum.

Depends on the point. If you're trying to solve a problem that can't be solved by appealing to someone's humanity because you inherently disagree on a moral basis, then moralizing is worthless. It's spinning wheels. You've got to argue from a practical or reasonable stance. It's why everyone who argues with Leftists about wasting their vote points out the fact that they're not just making things worse for everyone else, but making it worse for themselves too, because you can't just say "Women and LGBTQ people are relying on your vote", because they don't fucking care. Not as much as they care about Palestinians I guess?

Justified criticisms against Palestine? Terrorism bad. I think. Another? Pick better people to govern in your name. It's hard not to hold you responsible for the actions of Hamas if you don't condemn their actions.

If Trump wins, this is the exact type of person who will clutch pearls at him continuing what is already happening

You're god damn right they will because these people (aka me. I'm these people) know you get worse from Trump than what you're getting already. I could just as easily say Leftists will be attacking Dems for not trying harder to earn their vote while Trump is doing this shit too, but it's a dumb point because if this was ACTUALLY something Leftists feared happening they'd just fucking vote instead of letting perfection be the enemy of good.

 

[Raven]

After reading few pages, I come to the conclusion that ninja bot is an Indian troll. Never interacted with him before but that how Pro Israeli Indians are posting lol.. I don't really care who wins the next election, I want Harris to win only because it could ignite a civil war on social media and probably on the streets too who knows. Most think Trump will win 100%

 

[ninjabot]

After reading few pages, I come to the conclusion that ninja bot is an Indian troll. Never interacted with him before but that how Pro Israeli Indians are posting lol.. I don't really care who wins the next election, I want Harris to win only because it could ignite a civil war on social media and probably on the streets too who knows. Most think Trump will win 100%

Lmfao, that's super interesting, 'cause the one I've been butting heads with the most on this is M3J, who's actually Indian (allegedly).

I'm African-American. And isn't it kind of racist to assume someone's race based on their behavior? Not good. Admittedly, I assumed M3J was a white dude based on his behavior, so I'm in no position to talk.

As for the bolded, are you saying you WANT a civil war? Unironically?

 

[Raven]

Lmfao, that's super interesting, 'cause the one I've been butting heads with the most on this is M3J, who's actually Indian (allegedly).

I'm African-American. And isn't it kind of racist to assume someone's race based on their behavior? Not good. Admittedly, I assumed M3J was a white dude based on his behavior, so I'm in no position to talk.

As for the bolded, are you saying you WANT a civil war? Unironically?

why not, when someone break into your house steal your stuff and kill your family while you watch, You will probably know better not to support a terrorist state like israel

 

[ninjabot]

why not, when someone break into your house steal your stuff and kill your family while you watch, You will probably know better not to support a terrorist state like israel

What? Both Kamala and Trump support Israel. And even if they didn't, the civil war wouldn't teach anybody anything about not supporting Israel, because the war has nothing to DO with Israel lmfao. This shit was 8 years in the making.

Can you imagine Democrats and Republicans shooting at each other and thinking "Damn. The only thing that could've prevented this from happening... is a ceasefire in Gaza. How could we not tell that the Palestinian government was the tipping point for civil war in America!?"

I'll stop being glib and accept that what you meant to say is "You would be able to empathize with Palestinians if you were living in a war-torn area like Gaza, and you would regret supporting Israel because you would know what it feels like to have your homes and family taken from you."

And my response to that is "No I wouldn't." I'm too good of a person to want the deaths of an entire group based on the actions of some of the people in that group.

 

[M3J]

Yeah, saying something like "good ideas are good regardless of where they came from" IIRC

Ugh, it's beyond me why so many Dems vehemently support her when she's proving to be nearly as bad, if not as bad, as Trump and other republicans.

At this point, Harris is definitely going to lose because she cares more about republicans and moderates than people that would actually support her and is aligning herself more and more with their views while supporting a genocide. Would probably be one of the worst politicians just because she became a candidate with so much momentum and then killed that momentum with numerous bad decisions that goes against Dems' beliefs

After reading few pages, I come to the conclusion that ninja bot is an Indian troll. Never interacted with him before but that how Pro Israeli Indians are posting lol.. I don't really care who wins the next election, I want Harris to win only because it could ignite a civil war on social media and probably on the streets too who knows. Most think Trump will win 100%

He's not an Indian troll, his English is actually readable, even if his logic is as embarrassing.

 

[Raven]

I'm African-American

Harris is that you?

 

[ninjabot]

Ugh, it's beyond me why so many Dems vehemently support her when she's proving to be nearly as bad, if not as bad, as Trump and other republicans.

Are you asking why Democrats are supporting the Democratic presidential candidate 8 days away from the election? Is this a real question?

 

[shionoro]

At least I can say I would vote for Harris if I could and would recommend everyone who is pro democracy, for peace in gaza or against poverty to do the same. I'd just add that the fight is for these things is beginning once she is elected, not ending.

 

[ninjabot]

At least I can say I would vote for Harris if I could and would recommend everyone who is pro democracy, for peace in gaza or against poverty to do the same. I'd just add that the fight is for these things is beginning once she is elected, not ending.

You wouldn't withhold your vote in protest against the genocide in Gaza?

Why?

 

[shionoro]

You wouldn't withhold your vote in protest against the genocide in Gaza?

Because I do not think Trump is going to stop genociding, and vice versa, supports a lot of authoritarian states that commit war crimes (Israel being one of them, but also Russia). And that is only one topic. Trump is going to push the world into a more authoritarian one, worldwide. And we know that authoritarian states are even more prone to violence, outward and inward. It definitely cannot be said that a vote for Trump leads to less bloodshed in Gaza or anywhere else.

Personally, I think that people spend to little time thinking about politics outside of the election. Real change comes from the bottom and from within, via grassroots movements, civil engagement, protests and dialogue among the population. That will be true no matter who of the two gets elected. For example, the fight for climate change will have to be led by normal people, partially against whoever will win (because they will partially align with the corporations that drive climate change). But under Kamala Harris, who partially also aligns with unions and climate groups, that will be way easier because there are more options to sway her and less incentive for her to use authoritarian means against protestors. The same is true for Gaza.

 

[ninjabot]

Because I do not think Trump is going to stop genociding, and vice versa, supports a lot of authoritarian states that commit war crimes (Israel being one of them, but also Russia). And that is only one topic. Trump is going to push the world into a more authoritarian one, worldwide. And we know that authoritarian states are even more prone to violence, outward and inward. It definitely cannot be said that a vote for Trump leads to less bloodshed in Gaza or anywhere else.

Personally, I think that people spend to little time thinking about politics outside of the election. Real change comes from the bottom and from within, via grassroots movements, civil engagement, protests and dialogue among the population. That will be true no matter who of the two gets elected. For example, the fight for climate change will have to be led by normal people, partially against whoever will win (because they will partially align with the corporations that drive climate change). But under Kamala Harris, who partially also aligns with unions and climate groups, that will be way easier because there are more options to sway her and less incentive for her to use authoritarian means against protestors. The same is true for Gaza.

So you're saying Harris has already earned your vote by way of messaging that appeals to your sense of duty to your fellow humans, including Gazans?

 

[shionoro]

So you're saying Harris has already earned your vote by way of messaging that appeals to your sense of duty to your fellow humans, including Gazans?

I wouldn't say that. I don't hate Harris as a candidate, but she would have had to fuck up a lot for me to evaluate her and her fellow democrats as an option that is not meaningfully better than Trump and his fellow Republicans are. Choosing Waltz made it easier for me to like her, but my sense of duty would mostly be activated because she is not open to fascism or for policies that strenghten it.

In my own country, that calculus is different. Even the two big moderate (so called) leftist parties embrace racist and anti poor policies. We have a nominal moderate leftist government that, in my opinion, is not meaningfully better than what we would have if there was a middle right + middle left government like before. That is why I wouldnt vote for any of the middle left parties, because they openly lied to me and push for policies they have promised to do the opposite of. Therefore, I am going to vote a smaller leftist party that is probably not going to make it into parliament, because it is the biggest party that I do see as meaningfully better than the other options.

 

[ninjabot]

I wouldn't say that. I don't hate Harris as a candidate, but she would have had to fuck up a lot for me to evaluate her and her fellow democrats as an option that is not meaningfully better than Trump and his fellow Republicans are. Choosing Waltz made it easier for me to like her, but my sense of duty would mostly be activated because she is not open to fascism.

This is what I mean. That little bit was enough to mark her as "good enough" for a vote. She didn't have to promise the impossible to you in order to move you to vote for her.

I'm only asking these questions to emphasize the difference between a good Lefty and a bad one. Because ideals are worthless if what it takes to accomplish them guarantees no change can ever happen because they can't get the support you think they have.

 

[shionoro]

This is what I mean. That little bit was enough to mark her as "good enough" for a vote. She didn't have to promise the impossible to you in order to move you to vote for her.

I'm only asking these questions to emphasize the difference between a good Lefty and a bad one. Because ideals are worthless if what it takes to accomplish them guarantees no change can ever happen because they can't get the support you think they have.

I think a good Leftie is someone who fights against both Trump's and Harris' unethical policies tooth and nails and hopefully understands that Harris' is the easier enemy.

 

[ninjabot]

Cool. So we can agree that everyone withholding their vote in protest because Harris hasn't done enough to earn their vote is one of these bad Lefties?

 

[shionoro]

I think it is ill-advised from a leftist perspective, but i struggle to officially judge the democratic choice of another person (including the vote for Trump) from above. I do not see how that would benefit anyone, it tends to just make people angrier and more stubborn and undermines the idea of democracy itself.

Anyone I talk to who expressed they do not want to vote, I try to convince them otherwise. But condemning someone as stupid, bad for his own cause, evil or whatnot for their honest view just does not bode well with me. Because I do not think that is how anyone fighting for anything good wins.

As a leftist, I want Kamala Harris to win very, very dearly (you can believes me that). But that will only happen if enough people make that choice on their own, we are not going to able to harass them into it by shaming (and we shouldnt want that, either). And as a wider worldview, even if we lose, I personally would not want to think ill of the people (people, not pundits) who stayed at home or voted Trump. I would want to fight for them to make a different choice next time (not just regarding the next election, but the next time they could fight for something good).

Bottomline: I would rather have people join leftist organizations and spend effort there than arguing with trump supporters or Pro Gaza/no Harris crowds.