American Politics

M3J

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Finally, if there is any political commentator who can be trusted to be knowledgeable about anything, it's Destiny. Whoever you're thinking of as being out of his league probably has already spoken to Destiny and been either destroyed, or defeated handily. Or they simply had a good conversattion.
LMFAOOOOOO

I didn't know all it took to get liberal fans is to stream and yell at right wingers.
Yup, people who read articles like this: https://www.jns.org/harriss-actions-abandon-israel/

These voters are just as real as pro Gaza voters. So the claim of a weapons embargo helping Harris tremendously is really just not one that can besupported by evidence right now. It might even have hindered her chances. I am not saying that is a fact, I am saying that the facts right now point towards a weapons embargo not being helpful by any significance to her. Because it is hardly as simple as to just round up the arab vote and give it to Harris. Therewould be lots of Muslims who still vote Jill Stein or Trump, and there would be people who have a problem with a weapons embargo and might vote Trump for that. And as I said before, there are also democrats in House and Senate who would never accept that and start an in party fight shortly before the election. That just doesn't seem worth it for like 0.5% of the vote tops in 1 or 2 states.

Democrats who support Gaza winning reelection is hardly an indication here. Ilhan Omar won with the same voteshare as last midterms, in a districts that democrats always win.

My problem here is not that you think that a weapons Embargo might have helped her. It might even be true. My problem is that you claim it like it is a fact even tho facts point into the opposite direction.
So basically, right wingers who were never going to vote for Harris or Dems... because most people would not read authors like her unless they were conservative or Trump supporter like she is.

That's all major assumptions, especially when Muslims/Arab Americans have said basically made it clear they were going to vote for Harris until she made it clear that she will continue to support Israel. She already had their benefit of doubt and votes.

It's a major indication, especially for people who insist being pro-Palestine is bad.

And I'm saying that weapons embargo could have helped her, but that was another reason in many reasons as to why she lost. I don't know if this was pointed out here before, but apparently the fact that people are googling stuff like tariffs and whatnot show that we probably have idiots who voted for Trump.
 

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I think a foundational problem here is that the people on the right have an easy time to give young men a vision that they can get behind. In every autocracy, young violent (verbally or physically) men without proper education were able to flourish because their bodies and loyalty mattered more than their upbringing or even abilities. Simply put, it gives young men power if people like JD Vance have power. If not as an individual, then at least as a group.

Leftist and Liberals struggle to create a similar vision for a society in which young men are needed. They are usually rendered as potential perpetrators unless they behave "perfectly" in the mind of college educated white women (if not as an individual, then at least as a group).

So if I am a young man without a college degree and I get my pride from my body, hard work, maybe success in my job, then what reason do I have to join people who think I need to walk on eggshells and people who do not work hard should get more freebies? It does not make a lot of sense. The current left is inherently unappealing for these people.

The left is very appealing to people whose mainskills are things like empathy, communication, analysis - so the typical things you need when you study. If I am able to talk "code" as a white man, i can flourish on the left if I have these skills, as I do get respect for being able to talk about emotion, interpret art and whatnot. But if I am even just slightly different, for example if I WANT to hide my emotion, if I WANT to be forceful sometimes, if I DONT WANT to talk in code all the time, things get more problematic.

I think that problem goes beyond just "how to talk to young men". It is more fundamental. The vision that many liberals and leftists have for young men is a vision that these young men wouldnt want. Because liberals want to live in a world where everything some of these young men are good at is seen as problematic and they are bad at everything liberals care about.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

LMFAOOOOOO

I didn't know all it took to get liberal fans is to stream and yell at right wingers.


So basically, right wingers who were never going to vote for Harris or Dems... because most people would not read authors like her unless they were conservative or Trump supporter like she is.

That's all major assumptions, especially when Muslims/Arab Americans have said basically made it clear they were going to vote for Harris until she made it clear that she will continue to support Israel. She already had their benefit of doubt and votes.

It's a major indication, especially for people who insist being pro-Palestine is bad.

And I'm saying that weapons embargo could have helped her, but that was another reason in many reasons as to why she lost. I don't know if this was pointed out here before, but apparently the fact that people are googling stuff like tariffs and whatnot show that we probably have idiots who voted for Trump.
Or someone like Fetterman and his fans, who probably did vote for Harris. It is really not like there are no democrats who have a strong pro Israel stance.

Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Majority_for_Israel#2024_campaign_work That group was absolutely able to destroy two squad members in their primaries and exchange them with Israel friendly politicians.

And Latimer, the person who defeated Bowman, won his Houserace, too. Same for Bell, who defeated Cori Bush. And he said there should be no peace talks with Hamas. In your logic, that would be an indivication that Pro israel politics is popular. But it is not. Much like Rashida winning is not an indication that a weapons Embargo would have given Kamala more votes.

Things are just not that easy. As it stands now, there is really no good evidence about a weapons embargo helping harris (leave alone that she couldnt have got that one through in the first place). She might have got some votes in some battleground states, she might have lost some in others, there would have been lots of secondary effects. There is absolutely no saying it, because none of these effects can be properly quantified and at least the possible positive effect of a weapons embargo seems to be really small.
 

M3J

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Or someone like Fetterman and his fans, who probably did vote for Harris. It is really not like there are no democrats who have a strong pro Israel stance.

Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Majority_for_Israel#2024_campaign_work That group was absolutely able to destroy two squad members in their primaries and exchange them with Israel friendly politicians.

And Latimer, the person who defeated Bowman, won his Houserace, too. Same for Bell, who defeated Cori Bush. And he said there should be no peace talks with Hamas. In your logic, that would be an indivication that Pro israel politics is popular. But it is not. Much like Rashida winning is not an indication that a weapons Embargo would have given Kamala more votes.

Things are just not that easy. As it stands now, there is really no good evidence about a weapons embargo helping harris (leave alone that she couldnt have got that one through in the first place). She might have got some votes in some battleground states, she might have lost some in others, there would have been lots of secondary effects. There is absolutely no saying it, because none of these effects can be properly quantified and at least the possible positive effect of a weapons embargo seems to be really small.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Fetterman's dumb ass. Dude also likely cost Dems with his shitty behavior. It was embarrassing to see how he went from being a champion of people to being happy to endorse genocide.

It seems the election was close, and that the PAC allowed Bell and Latimer to have more money for their campaign.


I like though no matter how many times I bring up the other stuff that Dems did, said, or didn't say or do, you always go back to weapons embargo and Gaza. Almost every single time.
 

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Oh yeah, I forgot about Fetterman's dumb ass. Dude also likely cost Dems with his shitty behavior. It was embarrassing to see how he went from being a champion of people to being happy to endorse genocide.

It seems the election was close, and that the PAC allowed Bell and Latimer to have more money for their campaign.

I like though no matter how many times I bring up the other stuff that Dems did, said, or didn't say or do, you always go back to weapons embargo and Gaza. Almost every single time.
Well, what other things that you claim do I have a disagreement with? It is really only that (as far as i know) that has significant evidence against it.
 

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Doge. *Sight*
 

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He already paid for his current position so... sure, why not?
Because you have to be an American citizen from birth, right? Like that was the spin of the Republicans vs Obama, right, that he somehow faked his birth certificates and was actually born African or something?

Musk is South-African, Canadian and American, but I am not sure wether he was born American.
His parents were South African and Canadian, but , many rich people also are American...

If he's born American, he will likely try to succeed Trump. This is Trump's second term, they need a successor, and the whole Twitter thing is waay too crucial for the movement to not consider that Musks plan is to usurp total control.
 

kkck

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Because you have to be an American citizen from birth, right? Like that was the spin of the Republicans vs Obama, right, that he somehow faked his birth certificates and was actually born African or something?

Musk is South-African, Canadian and American, but I am not sure wether he was born American.
His parents were South African and Canadian, but , many rich people also are American...

If he's born American, he will likely try to succeed Trump. This is Trump's second term, they need a successor, and the whole Twitter thing is waay too crucial for the movement to not consider that Musks plan is to usurp total control.
Oh, that's what you meant. I wouldn't think musk can become president due to him being born and raised in south africa and becoming a US citizen later in his life.
 

xi0

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There obvioulsy is the problem of him signal boosting Nick Fuentes by giving him access to Destiny's audience, but that's a price you have to pay to push back on bad ideas. You gotta hear the ideas first.
It's not a price that needed to be paid at all actually. You can treat ideological miscreants the way they deserve to be treated - admonished and ignored, and we're no worse off.

And even then, him debating him isn't the issue, his efforts with Fuentes did a lot to revitalize his relevancy. Humanizing message board trolls, whether intentional or not, does nothing beneficial for society.

These people need to do better then. I mean, literally do better. These people should hop in the discord and debate him out of it. Would be fun to see.
The actual exercise of debate isn't really what matters here, it's what is debated that does.

Oh! That claim makes for the perfect demonstration of Steven's political commentary aptitude then. By all means, one day when you decide you're bored and want to check your biases to make sure you're still a based skeptic like us cool kids, watch any conversation he's ever had with any of these people.

...except maybe the "Buckets of Cum" convo with Sam Seder. Or don't, really. I mean I do a disservice to him arguing in his favor here, because the best character witnesses wouldn't be his fans, but rather his colleagues. Nearly every major political commentator in our country, and some in other countries, can attest to his honesty, professionalism, and accuracy. I ain't gotta prove shit lol. But I do a disservice to YOU by not correcting your misconceptions of him.
I don't care about checking my biases towards him. I don't like him. I haven't liked him for the 10+ years I've known who he is. I feel perfectly justified in feeling that way. These are not misconceptions. My opinion of him on the whole doesn't erase whatever actual good he may or may not be responsible for, but if he's brought up in my direction I will continue to push back on him being held up as some sort of paragon and thought leader. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.

When you claimed that my strategies for how to stop the ostracizing of men by the left was actually coddling them instead of simply being considerate of their feelings. You're perpetuating the stereotype toxic men who claim that men should just suck it up and take the bad news, get over it and move on. You're also perpetuating the stereotype of Leftists: that they don't know how to appeal to men either because they don't give a shit about them, or they're only progressive when it comes to women, the LGBTQ, and brown folk.

Meanwhile, folks on the Right step in and do the ACTUAL coddling. Telling them they're not wrong for believing what they believe because society wants them feminized and subservient to make them easier to control. Telling them that they can't get laid because women are whores genetically designed to be hypergamous; riding the cock carousel until they're used up, and then settling for the advances of the betamale simps that the gigachads have left them to.
I'm not perpetuating that stereotype, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm perfectly fine with men being emotionally honest with themselves and others. in fact, that would certainly go a very long way to improving society in general. What I refer to as coddling is the notion that people shouldn't be challenged when they say or do stupid shit just because you need to "pick your battles". For example, if you're someone who thinks "kill all men" or whatever extrapolated version of this sentiment that you think is so pervasive in Leftists spaces is what is pushing people to redpillers, but then choose to minimize or ignore a culture where men actually kill women quite often, then I don't think that's honest or productive. That's all I meant. If I'm basing that on something I misunderstood about what you wrote, then feel free to correct me.

More than one thing can be coddling. The issue IMO is that the Right gets attention by being dishonest. But we all knew that already, so I digress.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Because you have to be an American citizen from birth, right? Like that was the spin of the Republicans vs Obama, right, that he somehow faked his birth certificates and was actually born African or something?

Musk is South-African, Canadian and American, but I am not sure wether he was born American.
His parents were South African and Canadian, but , many rich people also are American...

If he's born American, he will likely try to succeed Trump. This is Trump's second term, they need a successor, and the whole Twitter thing is waay too crucial for the movement to not consider that Musks plan is to usurp total control.
Vance exists (for some reason)

But if there ever was a person who could get the constitution changed, then perhaps everyone's favorite billionaire could do it.
 

M3J

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Well, what other things that you claim do I have a disagreement with? It is really only that (as far as i know) that has significant evidence against it.
The left and Muslims/Arabs in general being the main reason why Harris lost, I think?
Because you have to be an American citizen from birth, right? Like that was the spin of the Republicans vs Obama, right, that he somehow faked his birth certificates and was actually born African or something?

Musk is South-African, Canadian and American, but I am not sure wether he was born American.
His parents were South African and Canadian, but , many rich people also are American...

If he's born American, he will likely try to succeed Trump. This is Trump's second term, they need a successor, and the whole Twitter thing is waay too crucial for the movement to not consider that Musks plan is to usurp total control.
I don't think the republicans will care about that as long as Musk does what they want him to do. He also likely has the conservative voters' support, as well as the tech and finance bros. He's white, that's all they need.
 

xi0

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So if I am a young man without a college degree and I get my pride from my body, hard work, maybe success in my job, then what reason do I have to join people who think I need to walk on eggshells and people who do not work hard should get more freebies? It does not make a lot of sense. The current left is inherently unappealing for these people.
Why do you think people conflate those kinds of attributes with specific political leanings though? I get that the stereotype of a male on the left is some sort of emasculated soyboy but when we think of older left ideologies and the imagery that was used was anything but that.

I think that problem goes beyond just "how to talk to young men". It is more fundamental. The vision that many liberals and leftists have for young men is a vision that these young men wouldnt want. Because liberals want to live in a world where everything some of these young men are good at is seen as problematic and they are bad at everything liberals care about.
What do you mean by this specifically? I could see the argument for vanity of some sort but I don't think liberals scoff at pride in someone's work.
 

shionoro

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The left and Muslims/Arabs in general being the main reason why Harris lost, I think?
Yeah, I really see no proper indication for both these claims right now. But we can agree to disagree here, because I also do not claim the opposite (that there is hard evidence that the arab vote or leftist vote didn't matter). I think it is just too complex right now to say these generalizing things anyway, which is also why I am against saying "this issue would have helped/hindered Harris", as it is just too vague to say.

Why do you think people conflate those kinds of attributes with specific political leanings though? I get that the stereotype of a male on the left is some sort of emasculated soyboy but when we think of older left ideologies and the imagery that was used was anything but that.
I think that older left movements gaves these types of men consierably more respect. If you look into the violent uprisings in england, france, germany and Italy (and the US, too), oftentimes, these movements were built around physically fighting the police or sabotaging their workplaces.

What is different right now on the left is that we want to be inclusive (which is good in my book). Before, you had a workplace with 100% white men from the same kind of upbringing who had to do the same tasks as one giant workforce. So the fought for better conditions and pay together. That is not true anymore. It is easy to explain someone you know, who is like you, that it is worth fighting an abusive boss. It is a lot harder to someone that he needs to fight for the rights of someone who is unlike him and maybe even has tensions with people like him.

The big tragedy of the first worldwar was that the heads of leftwing movements in france and germany both knew it was wrong that workers fight each other for a senseless war, but thought they would lose influence among workers (who had considerable support for the war) and joined in. Because it is easy to say "workers unite" when all workers are equal, but when nationalism and culture come into play, that is harder.

And in our world, we have to bring the mexican worker with a nonlegal job together with the struggling miner who is afraid for his job. And we also need to bring these two together with women's right activists and talk with them about ecological causes. Bringing all these things together and finding empathy even for people who strongly critisize you is easier for a very empathetic men than it is for the more physical men that would have been an asset when fistfighting scabs.

To sum it up, because the world is so interconnected and diverse, someone who wants to be fair to all people needs to have a very high level of empathy and will to change themselves. And these people (paradoxically) are often letting loose against the people who are not instantly willing to change themselves or do not share the same kind of enthusiasm for altruism. Which are often underpivileged young men.

What do you mean by this specifically? I could see the argument for vanity of some sort but I don't think liberals scoff at pride in someone's work.
What I mean is: If you take the average leftist and imagine him working in a low paying job. Would he be proud of doing so? I think not, because the average leftist is like me, studied and if he worked in a low paying job, he wanted to get out of it and calls it abusive workign conditions now. The idea that a leftist is a proud steelworker who tells everyone around him that they control the steel site, not the bosses, is not true anymore. The leftist sits in university or in office and tells people that steelworkers should be respected, but he would never do that job.

For young men, they often want to have a career. They have dreams of making it big. That is why they fall prey to bitcoin or why they do "the hustle". In any case, they want an ideology more in line with their idea of fighting your waay up. Which is usually libertarianism or something of the sorts. In leftwing circles, at least in my experience, you will have a very hard time to find respect from someone for trying to get up the chain in a company or for pursuing your own business. They will tell you they respect small business owners, but only if they do not learn what kinds of capitalist things these owners have to do to stay afloat.

In general, leftists nowadays are talking more about UBI or the 4 day work week than about work being valuable or work giving your life more purpose. These ideas were very popular 100 years ago but they are unpopular now.

That is another difficulty that plays into the break with older left traditions. Before, leftists had no qualms to demonize lazy unemployed people, criminals and so on. These people were seen as another enemy. Many modern day workers still see them as the enemy, but now leftists say criminals and unemployed people are that way because of capitalism and need our solidarity. I think that is right, but it is clearly not very appealing to people who take pride in legal work.
 
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ninjabot

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It's not a price that needed to be paid at all actually. You can treat ideological miscreants the way they deserve to be treated - admonished and ignored, and we're no worse off.
Admonishing bad actors requires acknowledging bad actors. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

And even then, him debating him isn't the issue, his efforts with Fuentes did a lot to revitalize his relevancy. Humanizing message board trolls, whether intentional or not, does nothing beneficial for society.
Yes, it did give him a boost of relevancy, but that boost brought him into the eyes of uninformed people, causing them to give pushback to real politicians, all of whom had dealings with Fuentes prior to his famous Kanye West stint, and once the masses started applying pushback to these politicians, Fuentes was blacklisted. Even Trump and MTG distanced themselves, rejecting his rhetoric. If society at large didn't know Fuentes' history and beliefs, and why they're bad, he could've moved with impunity in the shadows.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

The actual exercise of debate isn't really what matters here, it's what is debated that does.
Agreed.

I don't care about checking my biases towards him.
This is so incredibly fucking disappointing.

I don't like him. I haven't liked him for the 10+ years I've known who he is. I feel perfectly justified in feeling that way. These are not misconceptions. My opinion of him on the whole doesn't erase whatever actual good he may or may not be responsible for, but if he's brought up in my direction I will continue to push back on him being held up as some sort of paragon and thought leader. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.
It's so god damn disheartening. I don't know what's worse. Failing to use skepticism, or using skepticism selectively. The first one can be excused as a mistake. The second is inherently dishonest. Like, Evangelical Christianity's style of "true for me, but not for thee" type shit. And I don't know specifically, but there's gotta be at least one fallacy here. "Argument from Ick" or something.

Whatever man.

I'm not perpetuating that stereotype, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm perfectly fine with men being emotionally honest with themselves and others. in fact, that would certainly go a very long way to improving society in general. What I refer to as coddling is the notion that people shouldn't be challenged when they say or do stupid shit just because you need to "pick your battles". For example, if you're someone who thinks "kill all men" or whatever extrapolated version of this sentiment that you think is so pervasive in Leftists spaces is what is pushing people to redpillers, but then choose to minimize or ignore a culture where men actually kill women quite often, then I don't think that's honest or productive. That's all I meant. If I'm basing that on something I misunderstood about what you wrote, then feel free to correct me.

More than one thing can be coddling. The issue IMO is that the Right gets attention by being dishonest. But we all knew that already, so I digress.
At the bolded: That's specifically why I said "Choose your battles." There's a time when someone's feelings are less valid than usual. And I gave examples of the less staunchly regressive racist and misogynist sentiments because acts that aren't so heinous you can say "fuck your feelings, you're just a bad guy here and you should be shouted down"...shouldn't be responded to in that way, unless you want to scare off the person you're trying to reach. They don't have to be blown up into attempted hate speech. I chose super limp claims about reality that should not be bad things to say, but have become bad because progressives are willing to die on these hills (white lives matter, some things in life are unfair for men). That was intentional.

"Kill all men" would be one that's a smidge more heinous than "White Lives Matter" because it's actually targeting a group, mentions violence in the name, and isn't indicative of some underlying truth about the world that should be contended with in honest discussion. WLM at least has the same defenses of BLM that "We're not saying only WLM", doesn't call for violence, and is true.

And yeah, for WLM I know it's 9 times out of 10 used as a dog whistle. But it only works if you react in the way they want you to. If someone tells you White Lives Matter, and you agree, then if their intention was to signal white supremacy they will have to needle you with more borderline racist rhetoric and THEN you've got them. Now you've got a foundation for your accusations. One stronger than just your feelings at least.

You however, used the word coddling. That's the word I'm calling into question. And while words don't have meanings, they DO have usages. More than one thing can be coddling, but the word coddling is colloquially used to imply that you're infantilizing someone. Treating them as if they're a child who can't handle more complex and difficult aspects of life. Unless you meant it in a different way? Then you're not perpetuating the stereotype. If you did mean it the colloquial way, then you are. One of the two (if not both) that I mentioned last reply.
 
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kkck

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How is it that democrats are not woke or running on progressive/cultural stuff but at the same time they can't shake of the image that they do?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Looking around, democrat loses in groups are not just in minorities but apparently you have Gen Z folk suddenly shifting conservative. How did that happen? Even 2 years ago it seemed like democrats had a rock solid lead on younger voters.
 

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How is it that democrats are not woke or running on progressive/cultural stuff but at the same time they can't shake of the image that they do?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Looking around, democrat loses in groups are not just in minorities but apparently you have Gen Z folk suddenly shifting conservative. How did that happen? Even 2 years ago it seemed like democrats had a rock solid lead on younger voters.
I mean, it's a perfect storm of all the things I've mentioned earlier about perpetuating the stereotype that the Left only cares about women and brown folk, but also the economy (moreso than the cultural stuff). Young folk are terrified that they can't own houses or have social lives and earn a living wage (because of the need of 2 jobs to make ends meet). But the people they'd like to vote for on social and moral reasons aren't offering answers for how they'll help them survive economic hardship, so they have to grit their teeth and vote for the people who, historically, are claimed to be the more economically literate political group.

No one's voting for Republicans because they're scared their kids are gonna be trans'd. Except Evangelicals.
 

M3J

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Yeah, I really see no proper indication for both these claims right now. But we can agree to disagree here, because I also do not claim the opposite (that there is hard evidence that the arab vote or leftist vote didn't matter). I think it is just too complex right now to say these generalizing things anyway, which is also why I am against saying "this issue would have helped/hindered Harris", as it is just too vague to say.
I guess so, but we agree that Biden is a huge part of why Harris lost? I mean, didn't even allow the primaries to happen, so people were forced to support Harris if they wanted to support Dems.

Which arguably did help her get momentum that she probably would never have had.
How is it that democrats are not woke or running on progressive/cultural stuff but at the same time they can't shake of the image that they do?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Looking around, democrat loses in groups are not just in minorities but apparently you have Gen Z folk suddenly shifting conservative. How did that happen? Even 2 years ago it seemed like democrats had a rock solid lead on younger voters.
They have that image because of the way media covers news and because of the way the right talk about Dems. It also doesn't help that Dems do performative stuff, like kneeling during the peak of BLM movement when they could have done more to help Black people. Trump kept saying Biden is a radical left, which is false, but that still caught on amongst the republicans because of their hatred for the left.

I think it's misinformation and dislike of accountability. And then you have Dems failing to deliver on their promises and whatnot, like protecting abortion and cancelling student loans.
 

shionoro

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I guess so, but we agree that Biden is a huge part of why Harris lost? I mean, didn't even allow the primaries to happen, so people were forced to support Harris if they wanted to support Dems.
It would have been better if Biden bowed out gracefully to enable a primary, I think so. But I also think the people running around blaming him now (pelosi for example) are a bigger reason for the loss than old Joe. Its their analysts that lost it for Clinton, its their analysts that lost it for Harris.
 
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