EDIT: to clarify for future readers:
Irene did live up to her hype with U1, Berserkers and overall enchantments throughout the course of the arc. Her little duel with Acno was good.
However in terms of actual fighting, she was just as disappointing as the rest and got pushed way too much than she should have. Thus why she's imo definitely not living up to her hype in that regard.
Compare to August, and the other 12, she was hands down the biggest contributor to the arc. She was the closest S12 to living up to the hype presented at the beginning of the arc.
Compare to August, and the other 12, she was hands down the biggest contributor to the arc. She was the closest S12 to living up to the hype presented at the beginning of the arc.
Irene was a badass and true to her hype whenever she was not fighting or fighting Acno. I'll give her that.
In terms of battle against Ishgar characters, she was as disappointing as the rest, maybe even more considering that she was hyped like no tomorrow. She got countered by Wendy, kept being hit and damaged, her dragon form got defeated by a DS slash with no strength behind it, and her best spell was destroyed by a character with almost no bones left.
August was the one who definitely lived up to his hype by receiving only 1 minor injury throughout the entire war, before commiting suicide like Irene, due to PiS.
I've said before that in this match-up, mutual underestimation favors Irene while mutual overestimation favors August. Let me explain in further detail.
Given what we've seen from and heard about Fairy Tail dragons in general, there really isn't much one can do to downplay the perks one gets for being a dragon, so downplaying Irene would usually involve minimizing the extent of her enchantments, or assuming that she can't really take that much damage that goes through those dragon scales, or thinking that she has lower physical stats compared to many of the other dragons that we've seen. On the other hand, with so much not known about August and with him being still a human, he gets hit the hardest when downplayed, especially considering that Hiro gave him such a reputation but did not even bother to try harder to depict that. When it comes to overestimation, all one can do for Irene would be to maximize the extent of her enchantments and assume that she has decent physical stats in dragon standards, basically just boosting the default things that she has shown or is supposed to have as a dragon. Meanwhile, August being shrouded in much mystery stands to gain the most when optimized, since his copying ability is perhaps one of the most overpowered things in the series, and if no other restrictions are assumed other than holder magic or caster magic channeled through a conduit or perhaps curse-given magic, then he might as well can copy everything else, including slayer magics of any sort. Plus there's the matter of his inherent magic power that is neither light nor dark, another opening for much extrapolation.
The upshot of all this is that all one has to do in order to argue on behalf of Irene would be to interpret both their showings conservatively and minimally. Meanwhile, those who would argue in favor of August would be more motivated to speculate more stuff, and he could still come out on top while also granting a similar courtesy to Irene. Since I really just want to simulate and imagine an epic match-up, even if I favor August in the long run, I choose to optimize both to their utmost. Of course there are those who take a more moderate view, by optimizing and/or downplaying both characters just enough to suit their preferences
Now for the wild card. My discussions so far assume that enchantment is classifiable as caster or holder magic, and so can be copied by August if cast without a conduit. One way to give Irene extra advantage, whether her other stats are overestimated or underestimated, would be to assume that enchantment is in another category altogether, allowing her to bypass August even if his ability is optimized.
Maybe a more abstract way of putting it would be to see August and Irene not as characters, but as instantiations of certain templates that may be adjusted accordingly, thus allowing for many iterations and versions. At this point it would be harder to argue which template has a higher range and a higher average, and so all one can feasibly do is compare a certain iteration of one template with a certain iteration of another template. My claim though is that the magic mimesis/replication template has a higher 'upper bound' than the enchantment template, and by bringing this more abstract premise down to the more concrete level of the match-up, it is then possible to argue on behalf of August and his copying ability.
Compare to August, and the other 12, she was hands down the biggest contributor to the arc. She was the closest S12 to living up to the hype presented at the beginning of the arc.
Exactly. Compared to the rest she delivered. I love how everyone focuses on her fight with Erza and Wendy as a basis to judge. Yes it's a factor but if you look at what she did, changing the landscape of a mountain without blinking, enchanting swords into people with personalities, believed to have subdued the North (debatable but evidence points to it), universe one which was no easy feat, enchanting almost a million soldiers, enhancing a fellow Spriggan to the point where he overpowered someone previously stronger than him and of course challenged Acnologia to the point where he was impressed enough to ask who she was (whether he was serious or not he was still impressed). Adding to this she still spent some time attempting to extract unlimited magic from Mavis, confronted Erza and Wendy, had the upper hand until back story came into play and she lost her mind. At the end she was still the last one standing and it would have been her victory if not for convenient plot. I'd really like to know which Spriggan contributed or displayed more than Irene did. If she was disappointing I wonder what the others were.
Exactly. Compared to the rest she delivered. I love how everyone focuses on her fight with Erza and Wendy as a basis to judge. Yes it's a factor but if you look at what she did, changing the landscape of a mountain without blinking, enchanting swords into people with personalities, believed to have subdued the North (debatable but evidence points to it), universe one which was no easy feat, enchanting almost a million soldiers, enhancing a fellow Spriggan to the point where he overpowered someone previously stronger than him and of course challenged Acnologia to the point where he was impressed enough to ask who she was (whether he was serious or not he was still impressed). Adding to this she still spent some time attempting to extract unlimited magic from Mavis, confronted Erza and Wendy, had the upper hand until back story came into play and she lost her mind. At the end she was still the last one standing and it would have been her victory if not for convenient plot. I'd really like to know which Spriggan contributed or displayed more than Irene did. If she was disappointing I wonder what the others were.
The August vs Irene battle in this tournament isn't about contributing to a plot, or changing landscape.
In my previous post i've already admitted that Irene was definitely worth the hype she's received considering what she's done outside of battle. And against Acno. She contributed to the plot yes, and her enchantments overall were pretty imrpessive.
Nothing to say about that, she was a beast.
But this is a fight we're talking about, and the only real fight she's got this arc was against Erza and Wendy, so of couse people talk about it. And in terms of actual fighting (so no U1, no Berserkers etc, only talking about her in combat), she WAS disappointing. Way more than August was.
Irene was a badass and true to her hype whenever she was not fighting or fighting Acno. I'll give her that.
In terms of battle against Ishgar characters, she was as disappointing as the rest, maybe even more considering that she was hyped like no tomorrow. She got countered by Wendy, kept being hit and damaged, her dragon form got defeated by a DS slash with no strength behind it, and her best spell was destroyed by a character with almost no bones left.
August was the one who definitely lived up to his hype by receiving only 1 minor injury throughout the entire war, before commiting suicide like Irene, due to PiS.
Getting hurt really doesn't diminish hype. It is what you do in a fight that lives up to it. Her having hit markers really didn't signify anything but some dust marks all over herself.
August did not live up to his hype. He was hurt by Cana's Cards and Gild's punches as well. Jist bcs you couldn't see hid hit marks doesn't mean he wasn't getting hurt throughout the fight.
Irene's only real wound was that DS sword to the chest and she was fine afterwards. Getting hurt is far from losing. Even the strongest people have been hurt by weaker attacks especially piercing attacks. Naruto, One Piece and DBZ are just off the top of my head. Krillin hurt Frieza with Destructo Disc, Sasuke hurt Madara with a regular sword, and Whitebeard got stabbed by a fodder. Getting hurt by piercing attacks doesn't negate durability. Irene could only be defeated through death which is why she suicided. She even told Erza she had a long way to go to beat her. Erza and Wendy weren't close to winning.
August spells did not live up to the hype he had. He did three moves and suicided. His strongest spell was only going to destroy a country and he needs to die to do it. Irene reshaped a country and banished Acno from the country longer than the Time Lapse, she pulled a meteor from planetoids away, curbed Erza in Wendy's body, enhanced two million fodders to be Erza tier with a staff tap, made two swords that even gave Mira a fight (and Mira beat Jacob with magic exhaustion), change the climate of Mount Zonia in an instant with a staff tap, and her enchantments versatility was off the charts. She did all of this while not even exhausting her magic either. The only reason Wendy kept dispelling Irene's enchantments is because Irene kept underestimating her. She was the only S12 to be praised by Acno as well. Irene definetely was the closest S12 to living up to her hype.
August was rushed and killed. He did nothing really important this entire war.
In another note, who wants to speculate about the off-panel achievement of subjugating the guilds of Bosco? How long did it take August, God Serena, and Jacob to conquer a country? How strong or weak are the defending mages in Bosco anyway? And did they really have a million soldiers with them, and how will those troops return back to the empire if they exist? It still boggles me how they were able to get there in the first place without either teleportation or passing through the other countries of Ishgar. If anything, this is the biggest minor victory the empire ever had as far as the conflict is concerned, the best reminder that the empire wanted to wage war...
And that's the sad thing about the king of magic, his performances are either relegated to the distant past in the form of rumors, pushed off-panel, cut short because of interference, or hindered due to plot.
The August vs Irene battle in this tournament isn't about contributing to a plot, or changing landscape.
In my previous post i've already admitted that Irene was definitely worth the hype she's received considering what she's done outside of battle. And against Acno. She contributed to the plot yes, and her enchantments overall were pretty imrpessive.
Nothing to say about that, she was a beast.
But this is a fight we're talking about, and the only real fight she's got this arc was against Erza and Wendy, so of couse people talk about it. And in terms of actual fighting (so no U1, no Berserkers etc, only talking about her in combat), she WAS disappointing. Way more than August was.
Yes but her other achievements such as U1, enchanting the soldiers and enhancing Neinhart serve to measure her MP, which is a better indication than in her fight with Erza. Also her brief skirmish with Acnologia displayed some of her offensive capabilities as well as her reflexes in comparison to her just standing there and taking the hits from Erza. You would never compare the Irene that fought erza and Wendy to the one who casually taunted Acnologia when she more than anyone else knows exactly what he's capable of.
The Irene that fought Acnologia is actually the Irene in my head taking on August. A fight with no emotional baggage.
Getting hurt really doesn't diminish hype. It is what you do in a fight that lives up to it. Her having hit markers really didn't signify anything but some dust marks all over herself.
August did not live up to his hype. He was hurt by Cana's Cards and Gild's punches as well. Jist bcs you couldn't see hid hit marks doesn't mean he wasn't getting hurt throughout the fight.
Irene's only real wound was that DS sword to the chest and she was fine afterwards. Getting hurt is far from losing. Even the strongest people have been hurt by weaker attacks especially piercing attacks. Naruto, One Piece and DBZ are just off the top of my head. Krillin hurt Frieza with Destructo Disc, Sasuke hurt Madara with a regular sword, and Whitebeard got stabbed by a fodder. Getting hurt by piercing attacks doesn't negate durability. Irene could only be defeated through death which is why she suicided. She even told Erza she had a long way to go to beat her. Erza and Wendy weren't close to winning.
August spells did not live up to the hype he had. He did three moves and suicided. His strongest spell was only going to destroy a country and he needs to die to do it. Irene reshaped a country and banished Acno from the country longer than the Time Lapse, she pulled a meteor from planetoids away, curbed Erza in Wendy's body, enhanced two million fodders to be Erza tier, and her enchantments versatility was off the charts. She did all of this while not even exhausting her magic either. The only reason Wendy kept dispelling Irene's enchantments is because Irene kept underestimating her. She was the only S12 to be praised by Acno as well. Irene definetely was the closest S12 to living up to her hype.
August was rushed and killed. He did nothing really important this entire war.
Alright, Erza and Wendy were not close to winning.
After the fight she had blood and sweat everuwhere on her and was having trouble standing. I'm not saying getting hurt isn't far from losing, but she should not have been wounded to that extent against Erza and Wendy, in that regard she did not live up to her hype.
August on the other hand, fought against stronger opponents and was basically unscathed / untouched for the majority of it, until his weakeness was discovered and a he was finally hit. Which resulted in him having some blood over his mouth.
I know that wounds don't mean everything, but in your examples (the ones i understand, i dont read every manga), for instance Wb was caught offguard. August got caught offguard and stabbed by Brandish. I'm not talking about stuff like this, i'm talking about an actual battle where Irene got pushed pretty hard, too much considering her hype.
COme on now. Stop talking about Irene's U1 or enchantments that have nothing to do with battle. August's spells didnt live up to the hype? Irene's strongest move got destroyed by fucking Erza with no bones, how is this living to its hype. And who cares about August not making huge explosions, it's the nature of his magic that makes him unstoppable and overpowered.
And STOP, please stop, talking about plot or whatever. August got incredibly rushed whereas Irene got more relevance and contributed way more to plot? That's extremely right, but i don't see how this is relevant here. We're not discussing who made the story better or who disappointed less in terms of plot or character. I don't give a fuck about August not doing anything important in the war, Acno and Zeref did what in the arc.
Yes but her other achievements such as U1, enchanting the soldiers and enhancing Neinhart serve to measure her MP, which is a better indication than in her fight with Erza. Also her brief skirmish with Acnologia displayed some of her offensive capabilities as well as her reflexes in comparison to her just standing there and taking the hits from Erza. You would never compare the Irene that fought Erza and Wendy to the one who casually taunted Acnologia when she more than anyone else knows exactly what he's capable of.
Oh i never doubted Irene had a ton of MP, but August as well. U1 is impressive and we see how Irene is scary in terms of MP, but in terms of actual combat that says nothing. Enhanced Neinhart was fodder material. Not saying Irene is as pathetic as Neinhart, you get my point.
You're right, the Irene who fought Acno was definitely impressive compared to the one fighting the girls. However Acno was merely toying around and could have ended the fight like he did with God Serena.
I don't doubt Irene's reflexes, and actually even having been disappointed by Irene in terms of fighting, i admitted it was mainly due to PiS, a lot of it. And PiS is unrestricted here. So i don't doubt Irene can be very deadly.
Her enchantment did not give her the ability to use the strongest HBM spell, her enchantment gave her the ability to enchant an actual heavenly body object and control it's trajectory down into the battlefield from space. Enchanting existing heavenly bodies(Enchantment Magic) and creating heavenly bodies(Heavenly Body Magic) are two different things.
The term "heavenly body" is just a fancier way of saying the term "astronomical object". Astronomical objects being things like stars, comets,meteors, etc. It's been established that the word Sema means the involvement of a meteor as seen in Jellal's and Irene's spells. That is the only reason the term "Sema" is in Irene's spell, the fact that the word "Deus" is attached to it should more than prove that it's an enchantment spell, it literally translates to God Meteor.
Jellal's magic is named after real life heavenly bodies:
-Grand Chariot-reference to the Big Dipper constellation, and the word 7 stars is in his incantation
-Pleiades-an actual cluster of stars in a constellation
-Altairis-named after the star Altair
-Meteor-self-explanatory and probably why Hiro went with Sema since he had already used the word meteor.
So it stands to reason that anyone who uses a heavenly body object in their arsenal would have it's naming traced back to the way Jellal's spells are named.
Lucy also has some similarities with HBM(via Urano Metria), if she were to use her own version of Sema it wouldn't be HBM though, it'd still be Celestial Spirit Magic.
The only people that could use HBM are Jellal and August(via copy). Irene used Master Enchant since she enchanted an actual meteor from space, unlike Jellal who creates one.
Irene doesn't use Heavenly Body Magic and doesn't have access to any other spells used by a HBM user.
Not that it matters anyways, since it's caster type and August would just nullify.
This post ran longer than I intended, but hopefully I made myself clear. She could increase her speed via enchantment so it's whatever.
@Reebi SOLID POINT.
If this Deus Sema theory is correct, August can't negate it.
To be honest Deus Sema is bad imo, since even Erza with broken bones could destroy it. But it would require August to actually do something to dodge or destroy it, leaving Irene time to try and hit him with a claw swipe in dragon form.
Hum, Irene won't have an army or a sword at her disposal. I'm assuming they are only two in the tournament, with no army around, and i don't think Irene starts with a sword nearby or with her.
I don't think a sword would help anyway, August can use Midnight's thingy.
@Reebi SOLID POINT.
If this Deus Sema theory is correct, August can't negate it.
To be honest Deus Sema is bad imo, since even Erza with broken bones could destroy it. But it would require August to actually do something to dodge or destroy it, leaving Irene time to try and hit him with a claw swipe in dragon form.
Hum, Irene won't have an army or a sword at her disposal. I'm assuming they are only two in the tournament, with no army around, and i don't think Irene starts with a sword nearby or with her.
I don't think a sword would help anyway, August can use Midnight's thingy.
Crash/Meteor combination and the shitty meteor is destroyed or August can summon Sema/and Melt combination.... people is acting like deus Sema is some Madara level shit
Irene did the most, but in a fight she fared no better than August. Hell, Erza fucking destroyed a meteor despite having only one limb with no broken bone! August actually fared better in fights because he at least sustained the least amount of damage, compared to Irene.
But then again, it's not like August is a dragon slayer, so who knows.
Irene did the most, but in a fight she fared no better than August. Hell, Erza fucking destroyed a meteor despite having only one limb with no broken bone! August actually fared better in fights because he at least sustained the least amount of damage, compared to Irene.
But then again, it's not like August is a dragon slayer, so who knows.
this is assumption even Silver one-shotted Atlas Flame spirit so its really possible for non-Ds magic user to defeat Dragon.. this is like saying Acnologia without Dragon Salying magic is weaker than Irene...
August is the strongest character after Acnologia and even Laxus/Nuke is par with Dragons roar..
and no one is stronger than August expect Acnologia... August is definitely apex in the world power (God tier character) and this level is powerful enough to even defeat Dragons..
I mean the reflector he used during OS arc, against Erza. He had to dodge swords only because he was already using reflector elsewhere, aka on Erza's clothes.
this is assumption even Silver one-shotted Atlas Flame spirit so its really possible for non-Ds magic user to defeat Dragon.. this is like saying Acnologia without Dragon Salying magic is weaker than Irene...
August is the strongest character after Acnologia and even Laxus/Nuke is par with Dragons roar..
and no one is stronger than August expect Acnologia... August is definitely apex in the world power (God tier character) and this level is powerful enough to even defeat Dragons..
Assuming based on little info makes no sense though. ANd wasn't Atlas Flame's spirit weakened, which even then it wasn't really dead? Did any of the heroes manage to beat a dragon during the GMG? If they couldn't even come within an iota of scratching the dragons, it's hard to imagine August beating one.
