Canon Base Luffy vs Zoro

[sir_rocky]

Luffy without gears doesn't stand a chance, Zoro wins easily, i really don't understand why someone would think otherwise

 

[King Moe]

After watching more of latest episode, believing Zoro is beyond Luffy where base or full power feel like fanboyism than fact. Until Zoro show more worth, I see it still Luffy on top on majority categories.

 

[nik87]

After watching more of latest episode, believing Zoro is beyond Luffy where base or full power feel like fanboyism than fact. Until Zoro show more worth, I see it still Luffy on top on majority categories.

They wanted to show what they can do with animations and went overboard, made it more DBZ like. We should stick to facts from the manga.
Luffy's arm going all over the Mirror World for no reason at all while we know from the manga that it just makes a curve.
Also, not sure what your post intended but it's definitely not backing up your claims since we still are talking about base Luffy so the last episode changes nothing.
Barely damaging the area around Luffy compared to the mini-nuke... How should I say this? Exaggerated is a mild word for it.

 

[King Moe]

They wanted to show what they can do with animations and went overboard, made it more DBZ like. We should stick to facts from the manga.
Luffy's arm going all over the Mirror World for no reason at all while we know from the manga that it just makes a curve.
Also, not sure what your post intended but it's definitely not backing up your claims since we still are talking about base Luffy so the last episode changes nothing.
Barely damaging the area around Luffy compared to the mini-nuke... How should I say this? Exaggerated is a mild word for it.

You do know that Oda can't add everything in fights. He stated this before in recent interview. They are just adding on as canon fillers, doesn't make them untrue or else Oda will be the one to tell them otherwise.

Also same thing can be said on Zoro vs Pica on its moments as they extend it too.

Regardless many factors put Luffy over Zoro many times and still after Hawkins situation, I don't see Zoro as a fast mover to be keep up Luffy's attacks unlike him especially with his future sight.

 

[nik87]

You do know that Oda can't add everything in fights. He stated this before in recent interview. They are just adding on as canon fillers, doesn't make them untrue or else Oda will be the one to tell them otherwise.

What Oda said is that he cant add all information into the manga and thats why he releases the cardbooks with information on each character. I dont know how you translated that comment into something different... If Oda wanted Luffy's hand all over the Mirror world he would have drawn it that way.

Also same thing can be said on Zoro vs Pica on its moments as they extend it too.

Stick to facts from manga. I have never used anime as a source of information.

Regardless many factors put Luffy over Zoro many times and still after Hawkins situation, I don't see Zoro as a fast mover to be keep up Luffy's attacks unlike him especially with his future sight.

Like I said, the debate is still about Zoro vs base form Luffy, the last episode didnt change a single thing, not sure why you brought that up at all. You can see that many still put Zoro above base Luffy as well, you even have a pole to back up those claims. I still have to see a pole backing your claims but I know such pole doesnt exist.

 

[King Moe]

What Oda said is that he cant add all information into the manga and thats why he releases the cardbooks with information on each character. I dont know how you translated that comment into something different... If Oda wanted Luffy's hand all over the Mirror world he would have drawn it that way.


Stick to facts from manga. I have never used anime as a source of information.


Like I said, the debate is still about Zoro vs base form Luffy, the last episode didnt change a single thing, not sure why you brought that up at all. You can see that many still put Zoro above base Luffy as well, you even have a pole to back up those claims. I still have to see a pole backing your claims but I know such pole doesnt exist.

He said that about fights too, dude. Not disagreeing with you, but he takes advantage all factors of the anime on information and fights.

Anime has canon filler, so beg to differ.

Zoro with Haki isn't good enough with Luffy with Haki and if we doing without. It be like in Whiskey Peak fight, but still in Luffy's favor.

Not really many as just from this website. Its quite diverse from what I seen about it on other websites. Even on data cards it says Luffy is stronger than Zoro.

 

[nik87]

Zoro with Haki isn't good enough with Luffy with Haki and if we doing without. It be like in Whiskey Peak fight, but still in Luffy's favor.

As you see many disagree with you. On other websites too, wherever I have looked.

Even on data cards it says Luffy is stronger than Zoro.

More false info on your side. It said that Zoro's strength is only second to his captain. It didnt limit Luffy to base form so your argument is invalid.

 

[King Moe]

As you see many disagree with you. On other websites too, wherever I have looked.


More false info on your side. It said that Zoro's strength is only second to his captain. It didnt limit Luffy to base form so your argument is invalid.

Nah, looking at websites, many still say Luffy stronger overall. I looked at Reddit, Youtube, Twitter, etc.. Majority in Luffy's favor. I even found polls with more votes and still on Luffy's side.

How data cards false? There from Oda himself who got permission about it and even said he is "second" to him. You can't fight back what's canon. Base with or without Haki? Cause still not seeing it.

 

[nik87]

Nah, looking at websites, many still say Luffy stronger overall. I looked at Reddit, Youtube, Twitter, etc.. Majority in Luffy's favor.

Wherever I looked majority thinks that Zoro is stronger than base form Luffy without a question. We are not discussing Luffy's overall strength here, only his base form.

I even found polls with more votes and still on Luffy's side.

Oh, you finally found them? Sounds like you can finally link them and show to everyone that proof that backs up your claims? Because I am still waiting for those poles you said you saw...

How data cards false?

Databook card information is not false, what's false is your understanding of them.

There from Oda himself who got permission about it and even said he is "second" to him. You can't fight back what's canon. Base with or without Haki? Cause still not seeing it.

That comment didnt limit Luffy to his base form, it includes all of Luffy's power so your argument is invalid.
Also, since that info comes directly from Oda and he says that Zoro is only second to Luffy in power, doesnt that put him above Sanji? Why do you fight back what's canon?

 

[ShadowHeart]

Both Zoro and Sanji can fodder him.

 

[King Moe]

Wherever I looked majority thinks that Zoro is stronger than base form Luffy without a question. We are not discussing Luffy's overall strength here, only his base form.


Oh, you finally found them? Sounds like you can finally link them and show to everyone that proof that backs up your claims? Because I am still waiting for those poles you said you saw...


Databook card information is not false, what's false is your understanding of them.


That comment didnt limit Luffy to his base form, it includes all of Luffy's power so your argument is invalid.
Also, since that info comes directly from Oda and he says that Zoro is only second to Luffy in power, doesnt that put him above Sanji? Why do you fight back what's canon?

Majority of what here or whole fandom as fandom as a whole, many don't see that even in base form on both sides.

Yep, it's on Reddit for this one and many still see Luffy as stronger one.

Nah, that would be your understanding. Your also dodging my question about Haki and without too.

Why need to limit to base when still confirmed Luffy is still stronger. Trying to get a edge on Zoro in this not helping on it. Also yep and well if we going by canon aspects, Sanji and Zoro fought opponents equal to each other when competing, they have their fights, Sanji's bounty is higher, Oda did a cover page near the end of last year of them knocking each other out and daydreaming beating the other, and now their future opponents in Wano, so pretty sure both are equal at this point through looking at canon of the manga . Data cards didn't say Zoro is stronger than him, just not to Luffy's lvl. Why mention Sanji? We talking Luffy vs Zoro here, so stay on track and stop bringing Sanji up to change the debate.

 

[nik87]

Majority of what here or whole fandom as fandom as a whole, many don't see that even in base form on both sides.

Majority everywhere considers Zoro above base form Luffy.

Yep, it's on Reddit for this one and many still see Luffy as stronger one.

Link it here.

Nah, that would be your understanding. Your also dodging my question about Haki and without too.

Just in this last few posts you already misunderstood 2 things regarding Vivre card databooks so I am sure about what I am saying.
I am not dodging anything, Haki is not a mode, it's included of course.

Why need to limit to base when still confirmed Luffy is still stronger. Trying to get a edge on Zoro in this not helping on it.

Because when Oda says that Luffy is stronger than Zoro he takes all Luffy's power into consideration. If he took only base form Luffy specifically it would be stated.

Data cards didn't say Zoro is stronger than him, just not to Luffy's lvl. Why mention Sanji? We talking Luffy vs Zoro here, so stay on track and stop bringing Sanji up to change the debate.

Because Oda directly said that Zoro is only inferior to Luffy which proves your beliefs wrong, no? Correct, we didnt discuss Sanji but a fact like that shouldn't be left out.

 

[King Moe]

Majority everywhere considers Zoro above base form Luffy.

Link it here.

Just in this last few posts you already misunderstood 2 things regarding Vivre card databooks so I am sure about what I am saying.
I am not dodging anything, Haki is not a mode, it's included of course.

Because when Oda says that Luffy is stronger than Zoro he takes all Luffy's power into consideration. If he took only base form Luffy specifically it would be stated.

Because Oda directly said that Zoro is only inferior to Luffy which proves your beliefs wrong, no? Correct, we didnt discuss Sanji but a fact like that shouldn't be left out.

Not from the stuff I seen on other sites, that more your opinion than whole community.

Here it is:

Nah, seems like your didn't get what I was saying from my end, so gonna take it from my side especially since your not answering Haki question. Haki can be use in base form for both as well.

Pretty sure Oda will still say the same thing on Luffy still the better one even in base form. We saw in Whiskey Peaks in a fight between them when Luffy was without Gears and still hold his own with Zoro and hardly got cut by him and did more hits in the fight. Even post-timeskip, I don't think much change even in their respective base forms on who stronger.

He thinks of Zoro and Sanji as equals, you know that, right? So make sense why he isn't stronger than Luffy cause he sharing second with Sanji due to their rivalry lol. Never stated he is stronger than Sanji, just not he isn't stronger than Luffy XD. It would be mention on the data card, but not. Now let's get back on track and stop bringing Sanji in this like you always want to do.

 

[Takuan]

That poll that you just linked, is it Luffy vs Zoro, or BASE Luffy vs Zoro?
Because we're debating whether or not Zoro is superior to Base Luffy, aka Luffy with no gears. And that is kind of absurd to think he's not even matching a no gear Luffy.

 

[nik87]

Here it is:

Like mentioned above, we see nothing about the question for that pole. You need to link the site and topic where that pole is posted.

Nah, seems like your didn't get what I was saying from my end, so gonna take it from my side especially since your not answering Haki question. Haki can be use in base form for both as well.

As I said, not dodging anything and I said Haki is included.

Pretty sure Oda will still say the same thing on Luffy still the better one even in base form.

Pretty sure thats your headcanon.

He thinks of Zoro and Sanji as equals, you know that, right?

Incorrect and you know it.

 

[Seraph]

Zoro takes a no gear Luffy back to School,low to mid diff at most in my opinion.

Zoro is a Swordsman,the absolute worst matchUp for a Rubberman like Luffy.

He has Speed,Strength and Deadly Techniques if used against a Base Luffy. Only Form that Luffy would dust Zoro in is Gear Fourth,since Zoro can keep up with G2's Speed and could easily evade and counter G3 like that.

 

[King Moe]

Like mentioned above, we see nothing about the question for that pole. You need to link the site and topic where that pole is posted.

As I said, not dodging anything and I said Haki is included.

Pretty sure thats your headcanon.

Incorrect and you know it.

Already is the website and topic. Your just denying about it, but lets agree to disagree as it seems no matter the polls, everyone is to their opinions as after all Zoro still got his votes, just not to majority as Luffy though .

You were the past posts until now. So if we are choosing base mode and them using Haki, still in Luffy's favor then.

Nah, that's yours as even in a poll and data cards you still see Zoro somehow having edge better when Zoro even stated 'I do not serve anyone weaker than me', so your seem to be in delusion on seeing Zoro greater force despite his words.

Correct and I know it. Now are you done getting off topic? Let's focus on this topic at hand or would you rather end our conversation here since we can't agree with each other. Don't mind that as well too ;P.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 29, 2019 ---

Zoro takes a no gear Luffy back to School,low to mid diff at most in my opinion.

Zoro is a Swordsman,the absolute worst matchUp for a Rubberman like Luffy.

He has Speed,Strength and Deadly Techniques if used against a Base Luffy. Only Form that Luffy would dust Zoro in is Gear Fourth,since Zoro can keep up with G2's Speed and could easily evade and counter G3 like that.

Nice to see you, Seraph. Didn't know you know and watch OP too. Though I respectfully disagree with you on your post.

Pretty sure it's still Luffy's favor and the excuse on saying 'Blades or anything cutting is his weakness' can take Luffy out has been proven against many times with many opponents who uses blades, weapons, or powers revolves around cutting. Especially if we putting Haki in play, still don't see Luffy getting cut at all as Zoro doesn't have as high stats as Luffy does in mastering Haki. I mean even before Haki and Gears come to play with Luffy, he and Zoro fought in Whiskey Peaks and Zoro hardly could keep up on getting good hits unlike Luffy who kept getting more hits in. Zoro doesn't really match him in hardly majority departments.

G4 would be overkill over Zoro as he doesn't have anything to show that he is close to that lvl or can handle all G2 and G3 moves too. He is around there, but can't take them all. Idk about evading and blocking as we seen time and again when Zoro face a serious opponent being Fujitora and Hawkins, he isn't able to evade their attacks or block them with any good due to poor COO and while he does specialize COA and he does have a edge as it could be almost to Luffy's lvl, he didn't cut Doflamingo's Birdcage while Luffy break many times from Doflamingo's strings as well breaking and pushing them back.

Until I see more on Zoro on his capabilities, Luffy still outmatch him in majority of categories.

 

[Seraph]

Nice to see you, Seraph. Didn't know you know and watch OP too. Though I respectfully disagree with you on your post.

Likewise,been following it for sometime to be honest. Just not as active in the section anymore. Time to change that i guess ;D

Pretty sure it's still Luffy's favor and the excuse on saying 'Blades or anything cutting is his weakness' can take Luffy out has been proven against many times with many opponents who uses blades, weapons, or powers revolves around cutting. Especially if we putting Haki in play, still don't see Luffy getting cut at all as Zoro doesn't have as high stats as Luffy does in mastering Haki. I mean even before Haki and Gears come to play with Luffy, he and Zoro fought in Whiskey Peaks and Zoro hardly could keep up on getting good hits unlike Luffy who kept getting more hits in. Zoro doesn't really match him in hardly majority departments.

Until I see more on Zoro on his capabilities, Luffy still outmatch him in majority of categories.

It's a situation where i can't say anything for certain but i believe Zoro as a Swordsmen who has to possess strong enough Haki to prevent his Blades from breaking upon using his intense moves can match Luffy in Busoushoku prowess.

As for his Speed,fair enough,i don't possess an exact measuring of Zoro's exact Speeds nor of G2s but just going by my feeling it seems equally or small difference to me. I believe he can react to G2 Moves at the very least,he has great reflexes.
The Whiskey Peak fight,in Zoro's defense,he knew Luffy had a false interpretation of the Events so bringing him back to his senses was priority for him at the time. They seemed fairly equal to me to be honest,however this was way before the TS and the Gears and Haki as well. I mean if we're gonna go by that fight we may as well remember that the Agents in Whiskey Peak thought that Zoro is the Captain of the SHs and not Luffy just based on his strength at the time. But as i said,neither here or there.

If Zoro can't be put above Luffy due to his full extents being unknown to you/us then putting Luffy above him just like that doesn't work either i'm afraid. Zoro still has Cards to play while Luffy's Base Form is laid out,we know what it can do. His only developments in the Power Department is another G4 Form or his Awakening from my PoV. at the moment.

I honestly think that a Luffy that can't do any High Speed Movements is an open target for Zoro,Haki or not,Zoro has flying Sword strikes and his "Iai" Techniques that rely on high speed as well. In Raw Physical Strength i'm willing to say that they might be equally matched,but the edge goes to Zoro due to his Fighting Style.

 

[nik87]

Already is the website and topic. Your just denying about it, but lets agree to disagree as it seems no matter the polls, everyone is to their opinions as after all Zoro still got his votes, just not to majority as Luffy though .

Sorry but your proof is not a proof until you link the post where that pole is posted and the question is asked.
All we see is "Luffy or Zoro?", nothing else, we have no idea what the pole creator asked and what the people are voting about.
Every time when you are supposed to present some proof you wiggle out, conveniently. I know you have no proof and that's why I dare you to present some.

You were the past posts until now. So if we are choosing base mode and them using Haki, still in Luffy's favor then.

No I wasnt, it's just your impression since you didnt think that Haki is included while everyone else considered it automatically...

Nah, that's yours as even in a poll and data cards you still see Zoro somehow having edge better when Zoro even stated 'I do not serve anyone weaker than me', so your seem to be in delusion on seeing Zoro greater force despite his words.

It's 100% your headcanon that Oda considers base Luffy above Zoro because Oda never stated such. That means it's your headcanon and not mine. How do you misunderstand such a simple thing?

Correct and I know it. Now are you done getting off topic? Let's focus on this topic at hand or would you rather end our conversation here since we can't agree with each other. Don't mind that as well too ;P.

It's never off topic putting Sanji where he belongs, under the Vice-Captain.

 

[King Moe]

Likewise,been following it for sometime to be honest. Just not as active in the section anymore. Time to change that i guess ;D


It's a situation where i can't say anything for certain but i believe Zoro as a Swordsmen who has to possess strong enough Haki to prevent his Blades from breaking upon using his intense moves can match Luffy in Busoushoku prowess.

As for his Speed,fair enough,i don't possess an exact measuring of Zoro's exact Speeds nor of G2s but just going by my feeling it seems equally or small difference to me. I believe he can react to G2 Moves at the very least,he has great reflexes.
The Whiskey Peak fight,in Zoro's defense,he knew Luffy had a false interpretation of the Events so bringing him back to his senses was priority for him at the time. They seemed fairly equal to me to be honest,however this was way before the TS and the Gears and Haki as well. I mean if we're gonna go by that fight we may as well remember that the Agents in Whiskey Peak thought that Zoro is the Captain of the SHs and not Luffy just based on his strength at the time. But as i said,neither here or there.

If Zoro can't be put above Luffy due to his full extents being unknown to you/us then putting Luffy above him just like that doesn't work either i'm afraid. Zoro still has Cards to play while Luffy's Base Form is laid out,we know what it can do. His only developments in the Power Department is another G4 Form or his Awakening from my PoV. at the moment.

I honestly think that a Luffy that can't do any High Speed Movements is an open target for Zoro,Haki or not,Zoro has flying Sword strikes and his "Iai" Techniques that rely on high speed as well. In Raw Physical Strength i'm willing to say that they might be equally matched,but the edge goes to Zoro due to his Fighting Style.

Cool, great to see you again buddy and glad to have you back. Now as for your talk on the Luffy vs Zoro situation.

So far you are right about that, but doubt his Haki has surpassed Luffy's Haki as Luffy's performance of using COA has shown to be tougher especially capable of handling blades and cutting power. Don't think it's right to undermine Luffy's Master of his own Haki over Zoro's like that.

Speed....Zoro has more I would say 'striking' speed, but not like speedy to the point he can match Luffy's G2 and Sanji's speed. Pretty sure Oda already mention he isn't one of the fastest Strawhats when he moves. Though maybe in close range if your near him, but still see Luffy able to dodge his swift cutting strikes like before especially with his COO since now he has the ability to see into the future. Though Zoro clearly lacks more on that, so he will take more damage compare to Luffy on more hits landing on him than Luffy. As for the Whiskey Peak showdown, I don't think he was holding back as he was trying to cut him with the front side of his blades, not back and also gave a cut to one of his cheeks, but still Zoro took more punches and kicks from Luffy than him getting cut, showing Luffy is more than capable of handling blade opponents in the end.

Also don't think we need outside opinion of characters in the series as them determine Zoro as captain was more appearance, than actual power. Luffy get underestimate at times for his appearance, but shown to be quite a monster for his power, so don't think that mean anything for Zoro being stronger one.

Pretty sure Zoro's full abilities is more fan-based than canon facts as he had opportunities to show us his full power, but never does and hinted to be at with Pica showing how tired he was after cutting down his opponent down as he still shown to have trouble with the likes of Fujitora, Doflamingo's Birdcage, and Hawkins recently. Not saying he doesn't have anything as he bound to shown more, but think there overestimation over the canon all because of the 'Asura' factor when it seems to be a one-time thing now given his chances to use it after all.

What fighting style you talking about? As Zoro's Striking Speed isn't too much that Luffy can't dodge or block against as we seen him dodge away from even faster attacks or be creative on how he gets away from it. In Physical Strength, I see Luffy still as DF helps boost that up some more, but Zoro might be close, but I see him far a bit in reaching it.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 29, 2019 ---

Sorry but your proof is not a proof until you link the post where that pole is posted and the question is asked.
All we see is "Luffy or Zoro?", nothing else, we have no idea what the pole creator asked and what the people are voting about.
Every time when you are supposed to present some proof you wiggle out, conveniently. I know you have no proof and that's why I dare you to present some.


No I wasnt, it's just your impression since you didnt think that Haki is included while everyone else considered it automatically...


It's 100% your headcanon that Oda considers base Luffy above Zoro because Oda never stated such. That means it's your headcanon and not mine. How do you misunderstand such a simple thing?


It's never off topic putting Sanji where he belongs, under the Vice-Captain.

Whatever help you sleep at night despite what I lay out to you. Your free to agree with it or not, but I posted what you wanted, so don't complain now if it's not in your favor.

Not really, but regardless you didn't debate what I said last post, so I take Luffy on the win with Haki being better than Zoro .

How's that headcanon mine when Oda made him admit it? You seem to be in denial on wanting Zoro to be better against Luffy in a lot of things when it's impossible given the positions and such. Again your free to think what you like, but Oda will always put the real facts in your face even when your wrong.

If your done with your fun, can we get back on topic or the thought Oda never said he was tougher than Sanji is now bugging you as you keep bringing him up despite me telling you to stop changing topics? Being first mate doesn't mean Zoro is unmatched as we have this talk before about First Mates not always the strongest (excluding the captain) each time. Sanji is equal to Zoro no matter what, so no use of getting upset over it. Respect Oda's wishes and lets get back on topic. If you keep talking about this side again, then you prove you have no self-control and fanboyism off-charts. Prove you can end an conversation like M3J said to you before on the other topics .