Discussion Big Mom Pirates

[Zehahaha]

And since when Admirals are equal to Yonkou ? Heck, since when Yonkou are all equal ?
I don't get you guys, you always bring out that the argument " Ohh Yonkou are equal, or else another Yonkou will take her place ". You guys imply that Yonkou are interested into taking out each other while all the signs shows otherwise. WB was not interested, Shanks isn't, Kaidou isn't either or else he wouldn't have tried to stop WB from going to the war, I mean come on guys ! BB is a wild factor and for the sake of the plot wouldn't take on a Yonkou for now.

What's making it impossible for Luffy to defeat Big Mam ? Didn't he defeat Crocodile even if all the odds were against him ? Did you even forget that he was trained by Rayleigh for 2 years and reached a level that would have taken him years to reach ?

Also what kind of stronger pirates are we talking about here guys ? The likes of Squardo ? Because besides the Yonkou, I ain't seeing any strong pirates here.

I really can't see any of the Yonkou (except Kaidou since we haven't seen him) pushing the Marines to gather all their warriors + Shichibukai the same way they did for WB. Don't forget, it's not only because of him havin 1,6K men + allies, but because he had the strongest Paramecia ever shown and could've taken Marineford if it wasn't for Ace being there. Let's not forget that he was the rival of Roger, something that no Yonkou can brag about it.

Big Mam is strong, no doubt it, Oda won't make her weak that's for sure, but is she strong like WB or Shanks ? Hell no.
She will get her ass kicked by Luffy soon, unlike SH's vs Baroque Works, Luffy didn't declare war on Crocodile for the first time, and underestimated them, and also because of the lack of intel thanks to Sanji's misleading, they managed to reach Alabasta, if he knew what really happenned, I bet they wouldn't be able to reach Alabasta.

But here, Big Mam decided to attack Luffy instead of FI, and Luffy decided to defy her, no way she'll keep sending small fries one after another, she'll definitely move her ass for him.

 

[nguqua]

And since when Admirals are equal to Yonkou ? Heck, since when Yonkou are all equal ?
I don't get you guys, you always bring out that the argument " Ohh Yonkou are equal, or else another Yonkou will take her place ". You guys imply that Yonkou are interested into taking out each other while all the signs shows otherwise. WB was not interested, Shanks isn't, Kaidou isn't either or else he wouldn't have tried to stop WB from going to the war, I mean come on guys ! BB is a wild factor and for the sake of the plot wouldn't take on a Yonkou for now.

Maybe you meant someone else but as for me, I don't think I ever made any remark that suggests that admirals = yonkou, or that yonkou are equal in power. I fully agree that the world is not that simplistic and that means just because you have the yonkou title doesn't mean you are ounce for ounce equal in physical strength to the next yonkou, and that has never been a part of my argument. What I'm saying is that they are at the very least have to be in the same league. And when I say that, it doesn't refer to the kind of leagues like that of the shichibukai, where powers between each individual varies greatly due the the fact that they are appointed by a single authority, whereas the title of yonkou are decided through natural selections. This would mean that though no one yonkou is equal to the other, the power differences are very comparable and the differences are small.

I also never made any comment, and in fact have clearly explained in my second post that this argument has nothing to do with suggesting each yonkou competing with one another. Additionally, nothing suggests, beside for WB, that the yonkou do not have the intention of competing with one another. The purpose of Kaidou attempting to attack WB is still unclear at this point. Making any assumption is simply immature at this point I'm afraid. There are many mysteries in One Piece's world, as well as Oda's habit of unpredictable plot twists, makes confrontation with Big Mam herself after entering New World an open question mark. Nothing suggests that He will face her before other yonkou. For all we know, we might get an arc like Skypiea where a super strong opponent faces Luffy who himself is entirely unknown, or a powerful enemy from the past that never quite made it to the yonkou title. Remember that Luffy vs Shiki was supposed to be an arc in itself in the new world but got turned into a movie instead.

 

[BlackHair]

This is atm my favo thread, but due to time problems I couldn't post and cant properly until new year. Regardless nguqua covered most of my thoughts already. I will make it short, if I can find time I will post a more detailed post with quotes from the Manga.

We have to ask ourself "how" the equation was established in the first place. Thinking about that we will notice that every one must have fought each other at one point. Garp said that there are three pirate crews on the lvl of WB, to come up with that statement, the Yonkou must have fought each other.

But not only the Yonko, the MHQ must have fought each individual Yonko, only after that the WG must have realized that they need outside help to face the pirate age, which are the appointed 7Gods. After all the MHQ is facing every pirate on sea, not only those in the NW.

It doesn't matter if each have their own goal, they are pirates and marines on the sea, this is a shounen manga, obviously they must have fought each other. Not to mention in the manga there are many indications that they faced each on a battlefield.

As for Big Mom, I would be lying if I would say she seems strong. Also since pirate crews fights their battle as armies, you would expect her to be a mid-tier fighter, but with a enormous crew+alliance power. However she mentioned Garp! She is a pirate, he was a active marine and as long they didn't had a romance going on, the only logical relationship both could have had would be a fighting relationship. For that reason I believe she is indeed strong. Nonetheless, she seems to be a failed/disappointing character.

 

[Sakazuki]

About yonkous been equals to admirals in strength:

I can’t an see a admiral in the same league of power. Against Whitebeard there were officially three of them and two in the same league (Garp and Sengoku, as was implicated), and just one was close enough to kill Whitebeard (Sakazuki, who took almost half of Whitebeard’s head) and still loosed to the old man. I really can’t see Borsalino or Sakazuki wining a fight against Shanks, Big Mom or Blackbeard.

Now, @ Zehahaha:

Where you can prove that Shanks, Kaidou, Big Mom or Blackbeard aren’t interested in their counterparts’ territory? Do you have any manga references?

You say that it’ll be just like Arabasta Arc, Luffy will win against the odds again. Remember that he just won in his third fight and if Crocodile have fought him more serious in their first fight, Luffy would have died 100% for sure. I don’t doubt he will won against Big Mom if she is truly a villain because he is the dam protagonist! There won’t be any other Mangellan in this series, the only antagonist that Luffy never managed to win.

This fight must be saved for Late. If it’ll happen in the next year, Luffy will an yonkou level guy. There won’t be much of objectives left for him that aren’t related to be Piarete King, and there won’t be much enemies that I’ll try fight him directly.

 

[BlackHair]

I can’t an admiral in the same league of power. Against Whitebeard there were officially three of them and two in the same league (Garp and Sengoku, as was implicated), and just one was close enough to kill Whitebeard (Sakazuki, who took almost half of Whitebeard’s head) and still loosed to the old man. I really can’t see Borsalino or Sakazuki wining a fight against Shanks, Big Mom or Blackbeard.

Your reasoning is totally messed up. Why do you put Shanks Kaido and Big Mom equal to WB, but not the Admirals? Because they share the rank/title Yonko? I hope you realize that the Yonko fights their battle as a crew and that WB even called Yonko, was carrying the title strongest man.

Seriously I can't stand this narrow minded logic. Yonko Admiral whatever, both ranks are high tier. A Level in which everyone is close in power range. And to be absolute fair, it hasn't been even confirmed that Kaido and Big Mom are high tier fighter, not that Im questioning that.

As for the marineford-war if you reread the fights, you will notice most of it was plot circumstantial. Same case with Crocodile Luffy. It was PIS.

 

[Sakazuki]

I’m not saying that an Admiral is not strong. I’m saying that I think that yonkous are stronger than admirals. Five admirals like cant’ win a fight with Whitebeard. Sengoku couldn’t knocked out Blackbeard two years ago, when he was weaker than today I think. In terms of individual strength, I can say that a yonkou is stronguer than an admiral

And as you have said, yonkou is “a level in which everyone is close in power rang”. So I can say that Big Mom and Kaidou are beasts as Shanks and Whitebeard.

Final, by your theory of PIS and CIS (that I even thanked) we will see it again when Luffy and Big Mom fight, because I don’t see Luffy beating her right now.

 

[BlackHair]

So you agree that the fight with Luffy and Crocodile were circumstanced, but you are not seeing the fights with Sengoku vs BB and Admirals vs WB as circumstanced fights?

The reason BB survived Sengoku was for plot sakes. If BB died on that battlefield, we wouldn't have a antagonist right now. I only saw Sengoku hurting him, but not the other way around. BB on that battlefield was slightly above mid tier, at best. He couldn't have dreamed of killing any notable high tier.

As for Admirals vs WB, while WB was down on his knees facing Akainu, due to his age problems, normal fodder marines attacked him instead of Akainu giving him the death strike. Did u never wonder why?

Im not looking down on WB, I still consider him up until his death as the strongest character. However, saying that the Yonko (which we haven't even seen fighting) equal to him, but the Admirals lower, makes absolutely no sense. Garp, Sengoku and Kizaru didn't even fight properly.

They were all close in power range, Admirals, WB and his top commanders Marco, Jozu and Vista. But with WB slightly above the rest and the Admirals slightly above the commanders. Also u still didn't answer me why you are putting the remaining Yonko (Big Mom, Kaido, Shanks) equally to WB.

Lastly that statement of urs saying 5 Admirals couldn't take out WB, I don't get it. My main problem with ur logic is simply that you are trying to read power lvl by rank, not by individuals.

---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

And as you have said, yonkou is “a level in which everyone is close in power rang”. So I can say that Big Mom and Kaidou are beasts as Shanks and Whitebeard.

Sry u got that wrong. I meant to say that Admirals and Yonko and any other high tier are close in power range.

 

[OdaForPresident]

I'm thinking her power will be something like manipulating nature / trees / wood, maybe a wood logia. All based on her pirate flag obviously, otherwise I don't really know what the tree is for.

As for her power level, I'm voting weakest of the Yonkou. And als yes, I believe that she is Lola's mom

 

[Zehahaha]

Now, @ Zehahaha:

Where you can prove that Shanks, Kaidou, Big Mom or Blackbeard aren’t interested in their counterparts’ territory? Do you have any manga references?

You say that it’ll be just like Arabasta Arc, Luffy will win against the odds again. Remember that he just won in his third fight and if Crocodile have fought him more serious in their first fight, Luffy would have died 100% for sure. I don’t doubt he will won against Big Mom if she is truly a villain because he is the dam protagonist! There won’t be any other Mangellan in this series, the only antagonist that Luffy never managed to win.

This fight must be saved for Late. If it’ll happen in the next year, Luffy will an yonkou level guy. There won’t be much of objectives left for him that aren’t related to be Piarete King, and there won’t be much enemies that I’ll try fight him directly.

So you need to wait for Oda to tell you " Oh these guys aren't interested in territories " to confirm it ? Don't expect Oda to answer every single question of yours bro.

That's called deduction, based on facts & the characters personality. In the manga, it was mentioned WB objectif is a family, Shanks was said to mind his own business by the Gorosei, Kaidou if he had any intention of killing WB at the time would've waited till the war where WB was weakened to take his head, heck, if he wanted his territories, he would've just taken the islands while WB was at the war. But he wanted to stop WB from going to the war, why ? The only logical explanation is that he wanted to keep the status quo as it is.

It would be lame if this fight is saved for later, especially since Luffy pissed off Big Mam, it wouldn't make sense at all. Why would she wait for him to come while he decided to defy her ?

It's like I'm saying " I'll kill you " and you wait for me to come to get your head, it doesn't make sense. In 2012, Big Mam will be defeated. And I can't see Luffy defeated by any of Big Mam allies if their level is close to the likes of WB's allies. For the sake of the consistency of the manga, if Luffy is just as strong as the likes of Squardo after being trained by frickin Rayleigh, he better go back to Paradise.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

easy proof for that fact that yonkous are not equal in power...

shanks did confront kaidou to help whitebeard and his crew came nearly unshattered to marineford, only some hours after wb himself ^^

 

[BlackHair]

easy proof for that fact that yonkous are not equal in power...

shanks did confront kaidou to help whitebeard and his crew came nearly unshattered to marineford, only some hours after wb himself ^^

Well that was offpanel, hence no proof at all. I honestly believe they had a intensive argument (talk). Just like WB and Shanks had in chapter 434. A fight doesn't make much sense, since Shanks appeared as u pointed out, on the battlefield without any sign of damageline.

The Yonko have to be equal in power. If one Yonko would be dominating, the known system, the equilibrium wouldn't even exist. Only in power equal organisations can hold their own, otherwise they would be annihilated by a opposing force, and territories would be taken over. Thats how our world map was defined over the course thousands of years of human history. The same rule should apply in Odas One Piece. Thats at least how I interpreted Garps words back in chapter 432.

Any other explanation makes no logical sense to me. But Im always interested in new ones.

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

So you need to wait for Oda to tell you " Oh these guys aren't interested in territories " to confirm it ?

I believe Shanks is not interested in other territories, except if they are ruled by tyrant. Since Im seeing him as Luffy, a easy going guy who cant overlook ppl in need.

I see Big Mom being interested. I mean she is a fat bastard with hunger for sweets. So any new island which could serve as a sweet factory would be ideal territory for her.

As for Kaido, that guy is still a mystery. It seemed, as u pointed out, he wanted to preserve status quo. So somehow Im picturing him as a similar version of Shanks, maybe a bit darker though.

Lastly about BB, honestly I see him easily wanting to rule over the whole world, just like Akainu wanting his justice spread everywhere.

Anyway, I have to agree with those saying we need more information by Oda. At this point it can be interpreted either way. But regardless, everyone seems to have territory and armies, which they are leading. That much is already confirmed by the manga.

 

[nguqua]

That's called deduction, based on facts & the characters personality. In the manga, it was mentioned WB objectif is a family, Shanks was said to mind his own business by the Gorosei, Kaidou if he had any intention of killing WB at the time would've waited till the war where WB was weakened to take his head, heck, if he wanted his territories, he would've just taken the islands while WB was at the war. But he wanted to stop WB from going to the war, why ? The only logical explanation is that he wanted to keep the status quo as it is.

It would be lame if this fight is saved for later, especially since Luffy pissed off Big Mam, it wouldn't make sense at all. Why would she wait for him to come while he decided to defy her ?

It's like I'm saying " I'll kill you " and you wait for me to come to get your head, it doesn't make sense. In 2012, Big Mam will be defeated. And I can't see Luffy defeated by any of Big Mam allies if their level is close to the likes of WB's allies. For the sake of the consistency of the manga, if Luffy is just as strong as the likes of Squardo after being trained by frickin Rayleigh, he better go back to Paradise.

It's not the first time Oda built something up to mislead the reader. with all due respect, a verbal challenge or any conversation that hint toward a confrontation is no solid clue for you to be so certain about, my friend. Ace said that if Luffy wants to be pirate king, luffy has to face him. That hints toward a future battle between the brothers. Yet, Ace died. Mihawk clashed with Zoro way back then and said he'll wait for Zoro in the Grand Line. Does that kill the climax for us that not only Zoro has yet to have his ultimate fight with Mihawk since he entered Grand Line (could have been off panel), he became Mihawk's disciple? This is what I love about One Piece - its unpredictability. Given the fact that Big Mom has only a couple of pages last chapter, I don't think it's wise to make any solid assumption.

Concerning Kaidou, I really agree with you that Kaidou probably didn't try to intercept WB to take WB out. WB was mobolizing all of his forces to face the Marines. WB was in his strongest. There's no reason for Kaidou to choose that timing window to attack WB if his intention was to take WB out. As you said, he would have waited after the war, where WB would be in his weakest if he was still alive. However, I doubt that Kaidou intercepts WB because he wanted to maintain power balance. If this is the case, using force would be his last option as fighting between 2 yonkou would in itself threaten the balance. This begs the question - why did Shank intercept Kaidou? Did Shank support WB in his quest to fight Marines and save Ace? This complicates the true nature of Shank as he has been seen as a man of piece, who wishes no unnecessary bloodshed.

 

[hokageji]

I think she is a Bee type Zoan..

She would be the Queen bee in this case, with her underlings acting like workers getting her candy all the time...

Bee would have flight, honey and poison ability, could be deadly..

 

[Zehahaha]

It's not the first time Oda built something up to mislead the reader. with all due respect, a verbal challenge or any conversation that hint toward a confrontation is no solid clue for you to be so certain about, my friend. Ace said that if Luffy wants to be pirate king, luffy has to face him. That hints toward a future battle between the brothers. Yet, Ace died. Mihawk clashed with Zoro way back then and said he'll wait for Zoro in the Grand Line. Does that kill the climax for us that not only Zoro has yet to have his ultimate fight with Mihawk since he entered Grand Line (could have been off panel), he became Mihawk's disciple? This is what I love about One Piece - its unpredictability. Given the fact that Big Mom has only a couple of pages last chapter, I don't think it's wise to make any solid assumption.

Are you serious about this ? Comparing Mihawk & Zoro, Luffy & Ace, to what happenned between Big Mam & Luffy is wrong. It is completely different : In those two situations, it was a challenge yes, but Luffy and Zoro didn't do anything to piss off Ace & Mihawk the same way Luffy did right now. They said they're waiting for them to grow up, to become strong that's it.

But in Big Mam's case, the guy just said to her " I'll kick your ass and make FI my turf ", completely different situation. The chick was pissed because she didn't eat her candies, you think she wouldn't be more pissed off when someone say i'll kick your but and take your island ? Oh come on... Even I admit that OP is unpredictable, but to the point of comparing Zoro & Mihawk to this... Absolutely different situations.

 

[BlackHair]

Concerning Kaidou, I really agree with you that Kaidou probably didn't try to intercept WB to take WB out. WB was mobolizing all of his forces to face the Marines. WB was in his strongest. There's no reason for Kaidou to choose that timing window to attack WB if his intention was to take WB out. As you said, he would have waited after the war, where WB would be in his weakest if he was still alive. However, I doubt that Kaidou intercepts WB because he wanted to maintain power balance. If this is the case, using force would be his last option as fighting between 2 yonkou would in itself threaten the balance. This begs the question - why did Shank intercept Kaidou? Did Shank support WB in his quest to fight Marines and save Ace? This complicates the true nature of Shank as he has been seen as a man of piece, who wishes no unnecessary bloodshed.

About that, except Momongas words there is no real indication that Kaido wanted to stop WB with force, nor that he fought Shanks. I mean Shanks appeared on the battlefield just hours after, without any sign of damageline. So I believe as I said before, they just had a argument, like in chapter 434.

I believe he wanted to prevent WB from attacking the WG, since he expected him to lose. Maybe Kaido despite being a Yonko on his own, feels indebted to WB or he simply wanted avoid a power struggle in the NW, in case WB died. Either way, he wanted WB to forsake Ace. While Shanks properly wanted Ace to be saved, considering he is his former captains son (in case he knew) and since his relationship with Luffy.

But since they are mighty pirate captains on their won, they couldn't lend WB a hand on the battlefield, otherwise the mighty and prideful WB would have lost his face.

Anyway, I expect Kaido to be a "good" guy, at most a darker version of Shanks.

 

[Sakazuki]

I think that nobody can say right now if the yonkous are equal in terms of strength. There is no way to prove by sbs information or manga if they’re equals or not. For it’s very inconclusive, because we have saw just one yonkou in a real fight (I’m excluding Blakbeard because he wasn’t an yonkou by that time). If we even don’t know if they are equals, I’ll stop to compare the strength of the yonkous and the admirals.
As they’re two of the most important groups in One Piece world, I really expect to see more information to answer this doubt of mine. I personally thank BlackHair for his posts, that makes sense, but I need more proves to end this matter.

@Zehaha:

Logic is not the only thing in a story. If logic would be the ony thing, then we couldn’t be surprised by nothing hat is not new in the plot, and in OP the old things that Oda explain better or gives a deeper meaning to the plot are the ones which amazes us more.
You should stop be so annoying and choose better your words, having more respect towards the others members, “bro”.

 

[Zehahaha]

I think that nobody can say right now if the yonkous are equal in terms of strength. There is no way to prove by sbs information or manga if they’re equals or not. For it’s very inconclusive, because we have saw just one yonkou in a real fight (I’m excluding Blakbeard because he wasn’t an yonkou by that time). If we even don’t know if they are equals, I’ll stop to compare the strength of the yonkous and the admirals.
As they’re two of the most important groups in One Piece world, I really expect to see more information to answer this doubt of mine. I personally thank BlackHair for his posts, that makes sense, but I need more proves to end this matter.

@Zehaha:

Logic is not the only thing in a story. If logic would be the ony thing, then we couldn’t be surprised by nothing hat is not new in the plot, and in OP the old things that Oda explain better or gives a deeper meaning to the plot are the ones which amazes us more.
You should stop be so annoying and choose better your words, having more respect towards the others members, “bro”.

If logic isn't the only thing, then you'll just see that bandit of mountains who was showed in the first chapters become PK... You may find OP not logical if you're using " real world logic ", but try using" OP's logic ", anyone reading OP over and over can grasp how Oda's work, and can predict things.

What I'm trying to prove is that the argument that the Yonkou are equal is wrong " with the informations " we have so far. I'm not saying that they didn't fought years ago to gain their territories, but I'm talking about right now, and taking into account facts, and characters personality. You guys keeps saying that they're equal, something that not even Garp said when talking about them. And Sengoku's words after the war put an emphasis about WB being at " the top " of the pirates, and carrying the title of " the strongest man in the world " and " rival of Roger ", something that no other Yonkou can claim.

For the sake of the plot, Yonkou's (the captains, idgaf about their crew) aren't equal. It wouldn't make any sense for Luffy to defeat someone at Shanks/WB level, and it wouldn't make sense also for Big Mam to be fooling around and wait for Luffy to calmly come at this point.

And let me say this, this how I talk, I'm not doing it for the purpose of being disrespectful, no. I do respect anyone here, I'm sorry if I offended you, but expect me to hear more " bro " or whatever I say.

 

[The Red Dog]

About that, except Momongas words there is no real indication that Kaido wanted to stop WB with force, nor that he fought Shanks. I mean Shanks appeared on the battlefield just hours after, without any sign of damageline. So I believe as I said before, they just had a argument, like in chapter 434.

I believe he wanted to prevent WB from attacking the WG, since he expected him to lose. Maybe Kaido despite being a Yonko on his own, feels indebted to WB or he simply wanted avoid a power struggle in the NW, in case WB died. Either way, he wanted WB to forsake Ace. While Shanks properly wanted Ace to be saved, considering he is his former captains son (in case he knew) and since his relationship with Luffy.

But since they are mighty pirate captains on their won, they couldn't lend WB a hand on the battlefield, otherwise the mighty and prideful WB would have lost his face.

Anyway, I expect Kaido to be a "good" guy, at most a darker version of Shanks.

I'm a bit surprised by your theory about Kaido...I'd rather think that he wanted to seize the opportunity to take out the Wounded WB,he seems to be an opportunist guy,just like BB

 

[nguqua]

Are you serious about this ? Comparing Mihawk & Zoro, Luffy & Ace, to what happenned between Big Mam & Luffy is wrong. It is completely different : In those two situations, it was a challenge yes, but Luffy and Zoro didn't do anything to piss off Ace & Mihawk the same way Luffy did right now. They said they're waiting for them to grow up, to become strong that's it.

But in Big Mam's case, the guy just said to her " I'll kick your ass and make FI my turf ", completely different situation. The chick was pissed because she didn't eat her candies, you think she wouldn't be more pissed off when someone say i'll kick your but and take your island ? Oh come on... Even I admit that OP is unpredictable, but to the point of comparing Zoro & Mihawk to this... Absolutely different situations.

To me, I don't think Big Mom is pissed. I think when she heard they won't deliver the candies, she were, but after the exchange with Luffy, I think she became amused by him. If she was in such a rage, she would be determined to destroy FI and Luffy. I think the fact that she said that she'll transfer all her punishment from FI to Luffy shows some sign of bemusement.

I think the fact that it was left ambiguous what exactly did she eat (human or candy-like sentinents?) was to paint her as an evil person to mislead readers. This isn't the first time that Oda did this. He painted Franky as an evil jerk, and after Ussopp was robbed and beaten, the climax was pointing toward Luffy ultimately kicking this guy's ass. However, it was later and gradually revealed that he was a nice guy with a very sentimental back story. Same case was for "demon" Zoro when he was first introduced.

 

[Zehahaha]

Are you suggesting that candies are excited to eat another candies and can TALK ?

This page is clear, and if you guys likes to read too much and elaborate suppositions out of nowhere, I'll just stop answering this matter and let you do that.

About Big Mam, for someone who keeps reading into details, you sure missed an important one , you see that " Twitch " (which means twitching eyebrows or eyelids in genreal), it usually used to indicate the anger of a character in most of mangas. And it have been used in One Piece a lot of times to show anger.