Black Clover Chapter 196 Discussion/197 Predictions

Rikudou King

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Ok, but now it turned out that they did it because of a bigger design, for me it's a clear attempt by the author to clear his conscience.

In this cap even Yuno saves the one who killed the Wizard King.
Or more likely, to set up further plot threads and the future conflict. Again, the fact that someone gave them the idea doesn't absolve them of their crimes. If you murder someone and then it's discovered it was a hit ordered by another person, that doesn't let you off the hook for the murder. All it means is that another person to take justice/revenge against.

Yeah, Yuno saved him because, as you have clearly forgotten, the elves are possessing the bodies of their fellow knights. The good guys are trying to free their allies from the possession, this has been shown multiple times. So why wouldn't Yuno save him when he doesn't want the body he's possessing to be killed?

Because in the eyes of readers now no longer seem a threat.

And as if on Namek at the beginning of the saga appeared a super powerful character who humiliates Freeza before he can even see our heroes. Would you have the same found him or his subordinates threatening after this?
Maybe for you perhaps, but not everyone, and that doesn't change that the fights are literally already happening right now! Not to mention, the elves still have to be defeated to free their host from the possessions.

I don't even understand your point here - This isn't the beginning of the saga, it's nearing the climax. The fight against the Apostles was the final boss fight, and originally the end of their role. They lose, the possession is broken, and they're gone to the underworld or wherever dead elves go. The introduction of this demon means at worst the elves' role get extended past this arc, but in no way is he interfering with the progression as far as we've been shown. You speak as if we haven't seen Patolli go all out already, when we've seen him in multiple fights. So I don't see why you believe he would have had any role beyond this arc and therefore must continued to be hyped up. I also don't understand how someone dodging his attack is a humiliation. If that's the case, then he was humiliated long before this point when he fought Julius and Yami...
 

Ice King

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Or more likely, to set up further plot threads and the future conflict. Again, the fact that someone gave them the idea doesn't absolve them of their crimes. If you murder someone and then it's discovered it was a hit ordered by another person, that doesn't let you off the hook for the murder. All it means is that another person to take justice/revenge against.
Too complex for a manga like Black Clover, the author will choose the most simplistic way. Also because this would make the plot excessively complex, when the appearance of the demon is clearly a simplification.

Maybe for you perhaps, but not everyone, and that doesn't change that the fights are literally already happening right now! Not to mention, the elves still have to be defeated to free their host from the possessions.
But the plot has changed now.

We have gone from "we prevent the elves from stealing the bodies of our friends" to "evil demons deceive two races".

After such a twist, what sense does it have to keep fighting?

- This isn't the beginning of the saga, it's nearing the climax. The fight against the Apostles was the final boss fight, and originally the end of their role. They lose, the possession is broken, and they're gone to the underworld or wherever dead elves go.
But it did not happen, we only saw unfinished fights.

Those that until a few chapters ago were the enemies to face now are no longer threatening.

Yuno treats as two newborns two of the strongest enemies, now suddenly a superpowerful enemy suddenly appears, Yuno saves the one who killed the Wizard King and who surely understood his mistakes will eventually help the two wonder boy against the mega villain (also because who would it perceive as a threat after this chapter?).

Let it be clear that the non-critical involvement of the demon per se, criticizes its introduction now and how it fits.

It had to be inserted after this elves thing had ended and especially placed in a context that is not trivialized.
 

Rikudou King

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Too complex for a manga like Black Clover, the author will choose the most simplistic way. Also because this would make the plot excessively complex, when the appearance of the demon is clearly a simplification.
How is any of that complex? Unless you think the author was gonna end the series this arc, obviously there would be set up for the next arc.

But the plot has changed now.

We have gone from "we prevent the elves from stealing the bodies of our friends" to "evil demons deceive two races".

After such a twist, what sense does it have to keep fighting?
The plot hasn't changed. They still have to stop the elves from taking the bodies and the elves still want revenge. You keep acting as if the reveal this chapter was the demon killed the elves and framed the innocent humans, instead of what it's actually is, that there was simply another involved in the humans plot to kill the elves and steal their magic. The reasons both sides are fighting haven't been changed with this revelation. And again, they're already fighting! More importantly, they have no way to learn this new information. Everyone's separated and they can't meet up until their fights have been completed.

But it did not happen, we only saw unfinished fights.

Those that until a few chapters ago were the enemies to face now are no longer threatening.

Yuno treats as two newborns two of the strongest enemies, now suddenly a superpowerful enemy suddenly appears, Yuno saves the one who killed the Wizard King and who surely understood his mistakes will eventually help the two wonder boy against the mega villain (also because who would it perceive as a threat after this chapter?).

Let it be clear that the non-critical involvement of the demon per se, criticizes its introduction now and how it fits.

It had to be inserted after this elves thing had ended and especially placed in a context that is not trivialized.
Yeah, the fights that are currently still happening. And the threats are still there.

Strongest enemies? I think you're overestimating them. Patolli already lost to Asta and Yami once, and only won against Julius because he chose to save the citizens instead of himself. Patolli was never implied to be the "strongest". Licht was the one implied to be the strongest elf, but he's not currently around. Inversely, Yuno has always been treated as being powerful. We've only seen him lose once, against Licht. And again, Yuno saved him because they're trying to save the knights that have been possessed by the elves. He literally states this as the reason when he saved him!

You're criticizing things that haven't even happen yet, or even possibly will. Nothing is being trivialized, and you can't say how this should have been done before you even see the results of it.
 

Ice King

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This twist is undoubtedly a net change of texture, let's not joke.

Up to three chapters the situation was totally different.

I do not say that the twist of the demon should not be done, it was simply inserted badly.

It seems clear to me that there has been an acceleration, it reminds me so much Toriko.

I do not know if the author was forced or did everything on his own initiative, but it seems too sudden.

How is any of that complex? Unless you think the author was gonna end the series this arc, obviously there would be set up for the next arc.
Black Clover has always been a very simplistic manga in all respects.

I doubt that the author wants to make the plot too complex, already what we have done in this chapter is a huge simplification (we have gone from "war between races because of an ancient wrong" to "all the fault of a demon".


The plot hasn't changed. They still have to stop the elves from taking the bodies and the elves still want revenge.
But for how long?


Now that the one who caused all this mess has discovered that his revenge is groundless and has been saved by Yuno, how much do you think can remain an enemy?

As for the others, now their fights have lost all meaning after the appearance of the mega boss.

Strongest enemies? I think you're overestimating them. Patolli already lost to Asta and Yami once,
He lost a 3 on 1 fight, he was not completely reincarnated and his powers were sealed. Even so in his last shot was considered infermatile by three commanders .....


Julius because he chose to save the citizens instead of himself.
Drawing off a spell that can potentially kill an entire country. How many characters have a similar feat?


Patolli was never implied to be the "strongest". Licht was the one implied to be the strongest elf, but he's not currently around.
I repeat, a spell capable of killing an entire country.

Not to mention that it was at the pre-incarnation captain level (therefore a Yami peer), the head of what was the enemy group of the manga and especially the one that caused the greatest crisis ever seen by Clover.


Inversely, Yuno has always been treated as being powerful.
There is a difference from being treated as strong to being treated as a god descended to earth

Make him Wizard King directly at this point.
 

Franckie

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This was a pretty good chapter. We're at the endgame now and I'm looking forward to seeing how Asta's Grimoire relates to the Devil's appearance.
 

Tragicdeath

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This is a very interesting chapter. I wonder how the demon reacts seeing Asta having the anti magic demon. Pretty much they know each other.
 

Ice King

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I did not understand why Kishimoto should be insulted from here to eternity for the twist of Kaguya, while this equal is greeted as the genius of the century. Mah.
 

Seraph

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I wonder what'll happen to Asta if this Devil takes his Grimoire/Anti Magic away,perhaps this is the situation that we discussed before with Magic being granted to someone when they just wish strongly enough for it and Asta achieves his own actual Grimoire. I mean that is what the Devil wants right? Take back the Five Clover Grimoire of Despair that he himself created.

As for the fight,it'll be Yuno,Asta and Patri against the Devil with Mimosa providing the necessary BackUp in the healing department. I'm not sure if the fighters in the other Chambers will immediatly realize/recognize the new dark Mana that has appeared in the Palace so i don't know if this becomes a everyone vs Devil fight to be honest,it would feel a bit much but we'll see.
 

Ice King

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As for the fight,it'll be Yuno,Asta and Patri against the Devil
Unfortunately, also because I do not see what Patri could do now otherwise.
 

Rikudou King

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Black Clover has always been a very simplistic manga in all respects.

I doubt that the author wants to make the plot too complex, already what we have done in this chapter is a huge simplification (we have gone from "war between races because of an ancient wrong" to "all the fault of a demon".
Sure, it's a shounen. But that doesn't answer the question of how setting up future plot threads is "complex"? The simplification hasn't changed. It went from "the humans massacre the elves out of greed" to "a demon helps the humans massacre the elves out of greed". The Background is still the same as before.

But for how long?


Now that the one who caused all this mess has discovered that his revenge is groundless and has been saved by Yuno, how much do you think can remain an enemy?

As for the others, now their fights have lost all meaning after the appearance of the mega boss.
Except his revenges isn't groundless. Again, you keep acting as if this chapter revealed the humans didn't do anything or something like that. The humans still massacred the elves out of greed for their magic. Just because another was involved doesn't change what they did. The elves still have a reason to hate the humans, who literally stole their magic. And Yuno made it very clear why he was saved, which had nothing to do with himself, but the body he was possessing. Why would someone not giving a damn about him make him go to their side?

Their fights haven't lost meaning: The elves will still want revenge and the knights still want their hosts free.

He lost a 3 on 1 fight, he was not completely reincarnated and his powers were sealed. Even so in his last shot was considered infermatile by three commanders .....
What? Asta barely did anything against him, having to handle Valtos. So at best, it was a two verse two fight. And Gauche literally only came in at the end. He was still losing to Yami, who wasn't even serious yet. I don't know what "infermatile" is suppose to mean.

Drawing off a spell that can potentially kill an entire country. How many characters have a similar feat?
In this series, quite a few have shown that possibility.

I repeat, a spell capable of killing an entire country.

Not to mention that it was at the pre-incarnation captain level (therefore a Yami peer), the head of what was the enemy group of the manga and especially the one that caused the greatest crisis ever seen by Clover.
And again, plenty of characters in this series have insane magic that could potentially do that. We have even seen some of this with the ones who get possessed by the elves. And nothing said he was "captain-level". Even he acknowledged both Yami and Julius was better then him. And causing a crisis does not mean unbeatable He wasn't even treated as the boss, that was Licht, who was actually implied to be a real threat.

There is a difference from being treated as strong to being treated as a god descended to earth

Make him Wizard King directly at this point.
I feel like we're not even reading the same series. How is dodging an attack and then attacking with a move that didn't appear to actually do any damage "god-like"? It's not as if he even took any of them out with it.
 

Tiko

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Maybe Asta will surpass his magic defection due to the appearance of the demon.
 

JellalF

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welp, that scalated quickly :oh
 

Ice King

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Can you please open the thread of 197 ?
 
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