Discussion Blackbeard's Strength

Gecko Moria

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You're using this as an argument that Blackbeard is weak? He can take hits that others need to dodge, what a weakling?

And I agree with Dice, people in one piece get chopped with swords every other minute and don't immediately drop dead. Blackbeard didn't try to dodge attacks because he doesn't have to, he doesn't need to compensate, he can take it. If Mihawk can't that's Mihawk's problem.
I agree that Blackbeard is strong and can take all sorts of attacks without much of a problem. However, Mihawk isn't "just another swordsman", he's the "greatest swordsman in the world" for a reason. Even Blackbeard won't be able to withstand many hits from him.
 

RichardMNixon

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I agree but "won't be able to withstand many hits" is a lot different from the "Blackbeard will instantly die if within 10 feet of Mihawk" that most people are suggesting. Mihawk would be one of his toughest opponents because his strength is not based on a Devil Fruit, so he can fight Blackbeard at his full power.

Additionally, couldn't most of the arguments against Blackbeard be applied to Whitebeard? Basically what you've been saying about Enel is that if you aren't Luffy, you automatically die. You don't think Whitebeard could take Enel? Or an admiral for that matter? By your logic, all we've seen of him is having his strikes blocked by a guy with one arm. What a loser, right?
 

Gecko Moria

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I agree but "won't be able to withstand many hits" is a lot different from the "Blackbeard will instantly die if within 10 feet of Mihawk" that most people are suggesting. Mihawk would be one of his toughest opponents because his strength is not based on a Devil Fruit, so he can fight Blackbeard at his full power.

Additionally, couldn't most of the arguments against Blackbeard be applied to Whitebeard? Basically what you've been saying about Enel is that if you aren't Luffy, you automatically die. You don't think Whitebeard could take Enel? Or an admiral for that matter? By your logic, all we've seen of him is having his strikes blocked by a guy with one arm. What a loser, right?
Yeah Blackbeard wouldn't die from one attack from Mihawk, the two of them would really have to fight it out and the outcome could go either way.

Indeed, many people would lose to Eneru because they are not able to stop themselves from being electrocuted. But characters like Whitebeard and the Admirals (among others) could fight him and not die instantly (probably defeat him). Whitebeard doesn't have his "stongest man in the world" title for nothing and we have already witnessed the power of 2 of the admirals. They wouldn't go down that easily either.

Furthermore, I do not think Eneru is an insurmountable god. The man has his flaws. For example, he seems pretty useless in melee combat (i.e. without his DF powers) and he's too arrogant, leading him to make devastating mistakes (e.g. thinking Luffy's attacks would pass through him). I was merely commenting that he would not lose to Blackbeard as easily as some people have described. Blackbeard is no god either.
 

RichardMNixon

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No, I agree with you, especially about Enel's physical weakness. I was referring to Razh and others.

It's like we assume that Whitebeard, Shanks, and Mihawk are all incredible because Oda told us so, but for some reason we don't apply the same lens to Ace and Blackbeard. For all we know Ace could have kicked the stuffing out of Moria without using his DF; Hogback's surprise at his capture makes that seem not too far fetched. I think Blackbeard and Ace are on a different level from the Straw Hat fights we've seen so far, and those include Enel.
 

Rotten The Wizard

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lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.
He destroyed a Galleon effortlessly. Saying BB could withstand one of those to the chest is just pure ignorance
 

Gecko Moria

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lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.
He destroyed a Galleon effortlessly. Saying BB could withstand one of those to the chest is just pure ignorance
Blackbeard survived heaps of things that would have been considered fatal for most people (e.g. Ace's fire lances), so why not Mihawk's blade? Mihawk's blade is more deadly they Ace's fire attacks, but still, I can't see Blackbeard getting killed in one hit from any sword (unless it's through the head). And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't let Mihawk strike him in the chest easily either. The problem is that it's difficult to hit someone in an important area. I was assuming that a hit meant a normal hit, say, a cut on the arm not a massive stab in the chest.

However, Mihawk would have a major advantage in a battle against Blackbeard since Blackbeard relies heavily on is ability to draw people in towards himself and then smash them with his incredible strength. This would not be so effective against Mihawk, because being a swordsman Mihawk most likely prefers close combat more.
 
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Dice

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Kizaru didn't know the music would blow him to pieces (generally music doesn't :XD) that's why he was surprised. Any normal person would be dead after getting blown up but Kizaru isn't even though he didn't see it coming and had not already turned into his element (i.e. light).

I think the problem here is that you do not understand what I'm arguing. You think I'm saying that the logia ability to transform into their element state is extremely difficult. This is not the case. As you said above, learning to switch states is one of the easiest bits of a logia's abilities. All the logias can do it when they want to or think about it[/I]. What I'm saying is difficult is the ability to switch when they have not thought about it i.e. automatically. So even when someone launches a sneak attack on them, the attack will still unaffect them. Like the Kizaru example.



I agree with you that he couldn't know what attacks him (the music). But I wouldn't be quite clever to just stand around and enjoy it (though it's kinda funny ;)). The least he has to expect is that somethings gonna happen, who knows Apo just might distract him. That's something an Admiral should always consider.
And like you said "turning into their elements" should be a basic. If he only needs to think about it than he can do it during the whole fight I guess.

Ace and Smoker were hit by Luffy because they didn't know that there were actually a situation that could be harmful in any way. Additionally both of them should be able to resist some attacks.

Crocodile is different. I could imagine that he is always cautious and therefore able to turn in his element any time. But that's because he doesn't trust anybody (except himself).
Ace on the other hand seems to be a somewhat carefree person. So it makes sense that he doesn't expect an attack 24/7.
 

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Kizaru didn't know the music would blow him to pieces (generally music doesn't :XD) that's why he was surprised. Any normal person would be dead after getting blown up but Kizaru isn't even though he didn't see it coming and had not already turned into his element (i.e. light).
Kizaru was fighting 4-5 pirates, thus he was in "combat-mode". Consequently I believe he already had his logia switched on. About that music, Im not saying he was expecting to be attacked by music, but I believe he was expecting to be attacked in any kind of way. Though doesn't matter, since he probably was the whole time in "logia auto form" (damn we need a official word for that.. xD)

About ur second part of past, I do understand what you are saying. But I believe you are making it too complicated. I think it is more easy. Here Kizaru is attacked by a bullet, which hits his physical body, as u can the see the smoke on Kiz's neck. So even he must be aware, but in this case, he didn't bothered to switch, since those guys were too weak.

About BB vs Mwk, BB can surety take at least on hit from Mwk. If u are thinking he would go down by just one hit then u are terribly underestimating him. Though I agree, at this point I can see him only in disadvantage, same with BB vs Kuma.
 
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Rotten The Wizard

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^^^ He didnt land any attacks of that magnitude on BB. The ones he got off were WAY smaller

If you believe that BB can take this http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/49/13/ to the chest and survive then there's no point in me arguing my point. Assuming that BB can withstand an attack that can cut steel and survive sounds more like Fanboyism to me so I'm done with that particular matter.
 

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That has nothing to do with Fanboyism. Just 'cause Mwk showed some impressive footage on material things, doesn't mean the same effect will work on character. Is actually one of those shounen manga things..

Some examples:
So just cause Mwk was able to cut that giant ship without problem, doesn't mean BB would die instantly by same technique. Now you can argue if these attacks are weaker than Mwk's but that wouldn't matter. Cause damage shown on material things wouldn't be the same on character.

^^^ He didnt land any attacks of that magnitude on BB. The ones he got off were WAY smaller
Small or big doesn't matter, 'cause both have the same heat. Ace even named that with the same name. Bigger just means, that a larger field/space would be hit and destroyed and would probably consume more energy. He used a bigger hiken to destroy a larger target (a few ship) and he used the same hiken, just smaller, to hit a smaller target (BB+crew). Nothing more.
 
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RichardMNixon

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^^^ He didnt land any attacks of that magnitude on BB. The ones he got off were WAY smaller
How about this identical attack? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/
Or this stronger one? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/18/
Blackbeard was on fire, and came out of it standing and looking just fine, are you familiar with third degree burns?

Zoro can cut steel, does that mean everyone he cuts dies? Mr. 2's swan put a clean hole in cement, surely if he got one hit on Sanji's chest then Sanji would die? Why are you giving Blackbeard a realistic human damage threshold when no one else in the manga has one?

And if Mihawk is the favorite, then how by your logic is he supposed to beat Enel or an Admiral? He'd definitely have a much harder time of it than Blackbeard. We've never seen anything from him to indicate he could even beat Crocodile.
 
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Phase

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I'm not a fan of this argument personally, but I'll bring it up anyway. BB fought Shanks and didn't die (I'm completely ignoring the fact that BB wounded Shanks here). BB did not have his DF powers at the time. Shanks fought evenly with Mihawk many times during the same era. Now that BB is much more powerful, Mihawk is supposed to one shot him? That doesn't add up at all.

The thing that makes BB special is that he can take more damage than anyone else and survive. I really don't understand where people get the idea that he can get killed so easily.

Here's another interesting point, the one of historical context. Oda likes to use the real world as a basis for his writing. Blackbeard (Teach in real life, wow), is probably the single most famous pirate this world has ever known. Laffite is also a very famous pirate captain from the same era. I personally don't know any other crew that has such a historical figure as a mere crew member. Historical context puts BB and his crew far above any other pirate crew in the manga.
 

Rotten The Wizard

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That has nothing to do with Fanboyism. Just 'cause Mwk showed some impressive footage on material things, doesn't mean the same effect will work on character. Is actually one of those shounen manga things..

Some examples:.
well for 1 Rob Lucci was using Tekkai
2. Not the same attack
3. Again, not the same attack

How about this identical attack? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/
Or this stronger one? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/18/
Blackbeard was on fire, and came out of it standing and looking just fine, are you familiar with third degree burns?
That wasnt a direct hit

Zoro can cut steel, does that mean everyone he cuts dies? Mr. 2's swan put a clean hole in cement, surely if he got one hit on Sanji's chest then Sanji would die? Why are you giving Blackbeard a realistic human damage threshold when no one else in the manga has one?
all those are circumstancial and the fact that BB doesnt use tekkai nor is he a cyborg makes your claim of him beign virtually intangible complete ridiculous especially after he said himself that he takes are much damage or more than a regular human

And if Mihawk is the favorite, then how by your logic is he supposed to beat Enel or an Admiral? He'd definitely have a much harder time of it than Blackbeard. We've never seen anything from him to indicate he could even beat Crocodile.
I have no idea what you're talking about here

I'm not a fan of this argument personally, but I'll bring it up anyway. BB fought Shanks and didn't die (I'm completely ignoring the fact that BB wounded Shanks here). BB did not have his DF powers at the time. Shanks fought evenly with Mihawk many times during the same era. Now that BB is much more powerful, Mihawk is supposed to one shot him? That doesn't add up at all.
Well for starters BB had a different fighting style when he fought shanks plus that was a long time ago

And I never claimed that Mihawk would one-hit-KO him. I'm simply stating that with his weakness 1 attack can kill him.
The same way one of the pacifista's lazers (the one used on Uroge) through the heart would also Kill BB.
But I guess by your logic He would survive that

The thing that makes BB special is that he can take more damage than anyone else and survive. I really don't understand where people get the idea that he can get killed so easily.
Baseless claim. We havent seen how those attacks do against other people but it wouldnt be a stretch to assume that Ussop Could've survived those attacks as well

Here's another interesting point, the one of historical context. Oda likes to use the real world as a basis for his writing. Blackbeard (Teach in real life, wow), is probably the single most famous pirate this world has ever known. Laffite is also a very famous pirate captain from the same era. I personally don't know any other crew that has such a historical figure as a mere crew member. Historical context puts BB and his crew far above any other pirate crew in the manga.
Irrelevant.
 

BlackHair

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Im just quoting the part which is accosted to me.

well for 1 Rob Lucci was using Tekkai
2. Not the same attack
3. Again, not the same attack
  • Why does it matter? It was still his human body which was hit.
  • Yes it is. Both are named "Hiken", which means fire fist. In the manga are used different words, due to different Edited Manga groups. But you can check it on the anime version. Ace clearly uses in both attacks "hiken" as name for the attack. Maybe the size is different, but like explained above, it is fire, so it depends on heat not size.
  • He uses his laser shooting leg in both attacks..
Anyway, I believe we share the same viewpoint on "damage shown on material things don't have the same effect on character", since u didn't replied to that. So why still the discussion?

Edit: I found those clips on Youtube. He clearly uses in both version hiken!
 
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Phase

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lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.
And I never claimed that Mihawk would one-hit-KO him.
Awesome.


The same way one of the pacifista's lazers (the one used on Uroge) through the heart would also Kill BB.
But I guess by your logic He would survive that
Urouge didn't die, neither did anyone of the other handful of people who were fried by that laser. Hell, Urouge got back up to fight after he got hit. But BB would die right? Since you think he's weaker than everyone else.


Baseless claim. We havent seen how those attacks do against other people but it wouldnt be a stretch to assume that Ussop Could've survived those attacks as well
MY statements are baseless? My god, read some of your own. I agree that Usopp could probably survive those attacks. However, he wouldn't get up smiling, that's for sure.


Irrelevant.
Ignorant. Go read Oda's interviews and SBS columns and you'll realize how much he cares about his real world connections.
 
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RichardMNixon

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all those are circumstancial and the fact that BB doesnt use tekkai nor is he a cyborg makes your claim of him beign virtually intangible complete ridiculous especially after he said himself that he takes are much damage or more than a regular human.
Phase covered most of what I would have said. I'm not sure why you'd mention tekkai or cyborg here because neither of my examples involved those. I also never mentioned intangibility. He does take more damage than a regular human BECAUSE HE CAN. You have this ridiculous assumption that Blackbeard is about as tough as a noname marine and that he beat Ace because Ace's attacks are just little spring breezes to cheer you up on a cold winter day.

My comment on Enel was on a different subject and more directed at Razh, but I should think it's pretty self explanatory. If Enel or Kizaru will kill Blackbeard before the latter can reel them in, then what is Mihawk supposed to do? The same goes for Whitebeard. They would be completely helpless against Enel or Kizaru according to your logic. I'm certain Mihawk could beat Enel, which means there's information we're missing that I'm trying to account for and you're trying to avoid, at least as long as it means Blackbeard loses.

On the history note, the crew that killed the real Blackbeard reported to have shot him five times and given him twenty "dismal cuts in several parts of his body". He didn't die until they finally cut off his head.

Edit: Also, what is a "direct hit" with a gigantic blast of fire? It's not like there was some little point at the front and it only does damage if that hits him in the pupil, Blackbeard was completely engulfed in fire. He was on fire after the attack ended.
 
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Rotten The Wizard

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lol I've grown tired of this argument.

I give up, I guess BB is Currently the strongest bastard in this manga and nobody is even near the level where they can injure him. Even without tekkai or any other defensive ability...
 

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You are exaggerating and missing our point. No one claims BB to be the strongest character. I still think at this very moment in sheer fighting power that WB is the strongest, but that is another story. BB is not invincible, which would be absurd. And there are many ppl in his equal fighting level.

Our point is that BB's physical endurance is extraordinary high, maybe he has even the highest in one piece. Through that he can take more hits than any other and could still survive/be fine. He proofed that while fighting Ace. U can take that as his defence ability, if u want. That's why the darkness fruit, which unlike other logia gives him a all-time phyiscal body, fits his character very well. Considering this, he can take, assuming Mwk would hit his chest with full power, at least 1hit without going down.

Like u I'm tired of this discussion. 3vs1 is.. well not fair and I dislike discussion like this. So let me apologize, if I hit ur nerve during our argument, wasn't my intention.
 

Gecko Moria

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I agree with you that he couldn't know what attacks him (the music). But I wouldn't be quite clever to just stand around and enjoy it (though it's kinda funny ;)). The least he has to expect is that somethings gonna happen, who knows Apo just might distract him. That's something an Admiral should always consider.
And like you said "turning into their elements" should be a basic. If he only needs to think about it than he can do it during the whole fight I guess.

Ace and Smoker were hit by Luffy because they didn't know that there were actually a situation that could be harmful in any way. Additionally both of them should be able to resist some attacks.

Crocodile is different. I could imagine that he is always cautious and therefore able to turn in his element any time. But that's because he doesn't trust anybody (except himself).
Ace on the other hand seems to be a somewhat carefree person. So it makes sense that he doesn't expect an attack 24/7.
Kizaru was fighting 4-5 pirates, thus he was in "combat-mode". Consequently I believe he already had his logia switched on. About that music, Im not saying he was expecting to be attacked by music, but I believe he was expecting to be attacked in any kind of way. Though doesn't matter, since he probably was the whole time in "logia auto form" (damn we need a official word for that.. xD)

About ur second part of past, I do understand what you are saying. But I believe you are making it too complicated. I think it is more easy. Here Kizaru is attacked by a bullet, which hits his physical body, as u can the see the smoke on Kiz's neck. So even he must be aware, but in this case, he didn't bothered to switch, since those guys were too weak.

About BB vs Mwk, BB can surety take at least on hit from Mwk. If u are thinking he would go down by just one hit then u are terribly underestimating him. Though I agree, at this point I can see him only in disadvantage, same with BB vs Kuma.
I presumed that Kizaru was experienced enough with his Devil Fruit to not need to think about it to turn into his element i.e. he turns automatically. But since he was fighting against 4 captains, he might've decided to be more careful, so your theory works as well.

Take a careful look at my previous posts:
Blackbeard survived heaps of things that would have been considered fatal for most people (e.g. Ace's fire lances), so why not Mihawk's blade? Mihawk's blade is more deadly they Ace's fire attacks, but still, I can't see Blackbeard getting killed in one hit from any sword (unless it's through the head). And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't let Mihawk strike him in the chest easily either.
I do not believe Blackbeard would die in one hit from Mihawk. I merely think that Blackbeard is at a disadvantage because Mihawk, as a swordsman, would have an advantage in close combat.

PS: However, if Mihawk manages to land a critical attack on Blackbeard's chest or a a powerful hit on his neck or head, Blackbeard will die. No human being can withstand a hit like that.

lol I've grown tired of this argument.

I give up, I guess BB is Currently the strongest bastard in this manga and nobody is even near the level where they can injure him. Even without tekkai or any other defensive ability...
Are you kidding me? You are completely over-rating Blackbeard. Not only are many characters near and at his leve, but still more surpass him. lHe may be the last opponent but he still has a ways to go before being the strongest character in One Piece. What about the Admirals? The rest of the Shichibukai? (who, for many of them, we have not seen the full extent of their powers yet) What about the Yonkou?


You are exaggerating and missing our point. No one claims BB to be the strongest character. I still think at this very moment in sheer fighting power that WB is the strongest, but that is another story. BB is not invincible, which would be absurd. And there are many ppl in his equal fighting level.

Our point is that BB's physical endurance is extraordinary high, maybe he has even the highest in one piece. Through that he can take more hits than any other and could still survive/be fine. He proofed that while fighting Ace. U can take that as his defence ability, if u want. That's why the darkness fruit, which unlike other logia gives him a all-time phyiscal body, fits his character very well. Considering this, he can take, assuming Mwk would hit his chest with full power, at least 1hit without going down.

Like u I'm tired of this discussion. 3vs1 is.. well not fair and I dislike discussion like this. So let me apologize, if I hit ur nerve during our argument, wasn't my intention.
Thank you. For God's sake: Blackbeard is not a god.
Where is the 3 vs. 1 discussion? I believe while people agree with each other, I think everyone has their own unique opinion.
 
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