Discussion Blackbeard's Strength

[Razh]

i dont why people alway saying that BB doesn't mastered his df right now.. if it is becoz he cant evade attak like other logia's, i think that would be stupid coz that make 'logia type fruit' = 'paramecia type fruit'.. the only different is the user master or not his df.. so one day, some people will say that mr.3 and magellan is logia df user coz they are completely master their df power someday later on.. this is why people alway having confusing about doku-doku df and another paramecia df similar to it...

You can't master your devil fruit in a couple of months or more. And Blackbeard will never be able to evade attacks like other logias.
If Blackbeard has already mastered his devil fruit, than he's as good as gone, cause with what he has shown against Ace, he has no chance of becoming a Pirate King.

 

[RichardMNixon]

cause with what he has shown against Ace.

What he has shown is that he was completely unharmed by one of the strongest characters in the series. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/486/03/

 

[Razh]

What he has shown is that he was completely unharmed by one of the strongest characters in the series. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/486/03/

Hardly. For one thing, Blackbeard wasn't completely unharmed. Not in the version that I have read, anyway. And the pic you provided doesn't prove that he was unharmed either.
Second, Ace is hardly one of the strongest characters in the series. Well, it depends. I'd say he's among the 30 strongest or so, but that's just a rough guess. When you put in the fact that we haven't even caught a glimpse of the New World, anything is possible.

Also, don't you think that someone who wants to be a Pirate King should display a little bit more than Blackbeard has?
And do you think that Blackbeard has trained his DF usage to the highest limit?

There are still a lot of things Blackbeard could be able to do with his fruit. Like firing dark matter projectiles or making himself lighter for example.
After all, he does have an ability to release the matter that has been absorbed by him. That's not what black holes are known to do. I think he could be able to increase or decrease his own weight or mass. It would be only fair since he cannot become intangible.

 

[Rotten The Wizard]

I wont consider BB DF fully mastered until he can cover his whole body with the darkness and come up with some more convenient techniques.

Bottom line is Ace landed a ton of hits on him. Had that Been Mihawk he would be as good as dead.
Because of his weaknesses he should be able to evade and have a sound defense. He has neither.
Its a really dumb strategy to allow yourself to get hit in the chest by your opponents attacks. Some people out there only need to hit you once to kill you

case and point, thats a fact.

 

[BlackHair]

I wont consider BB DF fully mastered until he can cover his whole body with the darkness and come up with some more convenient techniques

If Blackbeard has already mastered his devil fruit, than he's as good as gone, cause with what he has shown against Ace, he has no chance of becoming a Pirate King.

I don't understand why ppl think BB went all out on Ace, that he was showing us all. Ace was clearly not strong enough, to force BB to go all out. It is about Damage lines. Those are seen if a character is losing or is getting weaker in some way. Those are defined by blood, dirt, pain etc. They can appear directly on the body of the character or just on clothes/equipment they are wearing.

Before the fight: Ace || BB After the fight : Ace || BB
Both look clean and unwounded before their fights. Right before the end, Ace is bleeding, panting and is down on the ground. Now look at BB, he is perfectly fine: not panting, no injuries and no dirt. Even though he got hit by fire. IMO Oda is clearly emphasizing that BB won the fight easily. He was forced to use his darkness ability, you can give Ace that much credit, but not more. BB didn't went all out, otherwise he would have been exhaust. So basically he wasn't showing us all of his capabilities. Which would be stupid on Oda, if he is already showing all of BB's ability, a character who will probably play major role later.

But at the same time I agree, since he isn't that long in posses of the darkness fruit, there could be still room for him to grow in that point. But on the other hand, given his age, experience on sea (serving decades under WB) and his role as the final foe of Luffy, he could be also a genius (there have been similar character in other manga, so it's not rly unlikely), who already mastered his ability. Anyway there is no way telling for sure, but at this point there are no real evidence pointing out that he hasn't mastered his fruit.

Another example on Damage Lines: Before the fight Ray||Kiz After the fight Ray||Kiz
If you compare Ray's coat before and after the fight, you can see that there is dirt on. Now if we compare that with Kizaru, we can safely assume, if Kiz and Ray would have fought without interpretation, Kiz mostly likely would have won. Since the dirt on Ray emphasise that he is getting weaker, means he is losing. But over all that fight was quite evenly, unlike that of BB vs Ace.

 

[Rotten The Wizard]

S I guess my your logic BB exposed his chest and took Aces fire lances for fun of it

 

[Dice]

Only because he hasn't shown more doesn't mean he can't do more.
He wanted to show has what he is capable of and didn't want to kill him and did never try to harm him seriously (until the end of the fight). He wanted to show his superioty so that maybe Ace would acknowledge it and that he would join him.

I don't think he has mastered it now, there is still room to grow I guess. But I do think that he has more up his sleeve than he has shown so far.

And being hit by a sword does not autmatically kill you (if you are fat xD)
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/33/17/

I don't know if someone said it here or if it's another thread. But I don't think that Kuma is able to repel gravity. So far he has only been able to repel matter (and pain/fatigue). But who knows...maybe he can even repel time....

About the logia turns automatically into their element thing: I always thought that they need to be aware that they will be hit or might be hit. They need to know that there might be a situation were they might be hit.
So I'm agreeing with Blackbea...ähm sorry I mean blackhair

 

[Rotten The Wizard]

Only because he hasn't shown more doesn't mean he can't do more.
He wanted to show has what he is capable of and didn't want to kill him and did never try to harm him seriously (until the end of the fight). He wanted to show his superioty so that maybe Ace would acknowledge it and that he would join him.

I don't think he has mastered it now, there is still room to grow I guess. But I do think that he has more up his sleeve than he has shown so far.

And being hit by a sword does not autmatically kill you (if you are fat xD)
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/33/17/

I don't know if someone said it here or if it's another thread. But I don't think that Kuma is able to repel gravity. So far he has only been able to repel matter (and pain/fatigue). But who knows...maybe he can even repel time....

About the logia turns automatically into their element thing: I always thought that they need to be aware that they will be hit or might be hit. They need to know that there might be a situation were they might be hit.
So I'm agreeing with Blackbea...ähm sorry I mean blackhair

lol bad example.
Zoro was a noob then, now he can cut steel. We're talking about the big leagues now.
I would have more respect for BB's fighting still if he used Tekkai but as of right now he has a major weakness

 

[BlackHair]

S I guess my your logic BB exposed his chest and took Aces fire lances for fun of it

He took it, coz he couldn't let that bypass like other logia. (Panel 5) In this point, I highly doubt there will be any improvement, it is the price he has to pay. Anyway fact is, Oda didn't draw any damage lines on BB, so that didn't rly hurt/weakened/affected him. Now thinking like this, yes he could have taken it out of fun..but that probably wasn't the case. About his screaming, while he was hit by Ace's fire attacks: I read that as a natural reaction, like pressing on a wound if u are slapped (real life).

My point is just, that Ace clearly wasn't on BB's fighting level. Thus he wasn't able to force all out of BB and that's why BB didn't showed us all of his ability. I mean why should you go all out, if you can be beat him with just 40% ? (just an example). Also like mentioned above, it would be dumb by Oda, if BB already revealed us everything.

About swordsman vs non swordsman fights: those discussion are always tricky. Cause Oda (as far as I can remember) never let a swordsman directly hit the opponents body right at the beginning of a fight.

Dice, I mostly agree with ur post. And I'm glad that u share the same opinion like me on the auto logia thing. Also nice find with the sword-fat thing lol

 

[Gecko Moria]

I'm not fully convinced about this example as Smoker was wearing a kairouseki sword on his back.
And do you not think that Ace and Smoker are enough experienced to avoid - as you supposed it to be a failure of the both logias to prevent the damages - a surprise Luffy attack ?
This supposition about the training seems to be contradictory with your vision of this event : that both experienced logias fails at the same moment from the same attack, does it have a high probability ?


It depends on what his relatively experienced for you.
Of course, the logias users are not able to turn automatically (and even consciously) in logia mode the next minutes, not to say the next hour, after they eat their fruit.
The best example of it is the one in the Enies Lobby Arc (with Kaku and Kalifa) : it proves us that it need a little time for the DF users to understand what power they have and how to handle it at least.

Smoker is not an idiotic. He wears thick clothes and carries around the seastone-tipped weapon on his back so that the tip never comes in contact with him and nullifies his DF abilities.

Both Ace and Smoker are relatively young compared to the older generation (Whitebeard, Kizaru, Rayleigh, Kuma) and DF powers are difficult to master (especailly the logia type).

Because at that time (maybe not now) they had not yet achieved the ability to turn automatically into their element and were caught off guard they were able to be hit.

However, had they seen it coming they could have turned into their element, since they would have had time to turn. This is different to how Crocodile and Kizaru don't need to will it to happen because it happens automatically, even when they are taken by surprise.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/

No Ace already had the ability to automatically turn into his element. As u can see he fought Smoker in a complete fire form. Also Smoker himself, who proofed in Loguetown that he can automatically turn into his element, was crashed alongside Ace by Luffy.

My explanation, they need to be aware that get attacked, so they switch from "physical" to "automatically turn into element form".

Having the ability to completely turn into fire or smoke does not mean they also have the ability to automatically turn into their element without thinking about it themselves. Your explanation that they need to be aware of the attack on order for them to be able to switch form is correct for Ace and Smoker. However, people like Kizaru and Crocodile do not need to be aware, as it is an automatic response since they have reached higher levels of power with their fruits.

 

[Rotten The Wizard]

He took it, coz he couldn't let that bypass like other logia. (Panel 5) In this point, I highly doubt there will be any improvement, it is the price he has to pay. Anyway fact is, Oda didn't draw any damage lines on BB, so that didn't rly hurt/weakened/affected him. Now thinking like this, yes he could have taken it out of fun..but that probably wasn't the case. About his screaming, while he was hit by Ace's fire attacks: I read that as a natural reaction, like pressing on a wound if u are slapped (real life).

that's exactly my point. He should've figured out a way to compensate for that considering he cant evade attacks.

Are you seriously saying that you dont think BB can master his powers to the point where his whole body is covered in darkness?
Cause thats the next logical step IMO

I know he was clearly superior to ace but He's not invincible.
You say you cant see anymore improvements so that means you believe that BB right now is at the Level of an admiral? Or he's the most powerful pirate out there. Atleast thats what you're implying.

If he doesnt have any room for improvement then by all means He's already the most powerful person in the manga since he's the ultimate villain

 

[BlackHair]

I see, then there was a misunderstanding. I do think like u there is room for improvement (like said before, u guys convinced me on this). Since he isn't long in posses of his fruit, but that is only a assumption. We don't know for sure, if there is still room, maybe he already mastered it too all extent. But didn't showed us, cause Ace didn't forced him to. So we can't base that on merely his fight with Ace (this was my point).

Are you seriously saying that you dont think BB can master his powers to the point where his whole body is covered in darkness?
Cause thats the next logical step IMO

hm. I don't think so, cause that makes him intangible like other logia. But he is different, a special case. I rather expect him to be able to create sth like Chibaku Tensei. A black hole which he could threw and create in whatever place he likes. But well u can't predict Oda :P

However, people like Kizaru and Crocodile do not need to be aware, as it is an automatic response since they have reached higher levels of power with their fruits.

On what are u basing this on?

 

[Rotten The Wizard]

Covering his body with darkness wouldnt make him intangible, in a sense. In a sense it would but not like the other logia's, he still wont be able to let things pass through him.
Him covering his body in darkness would mean that Touching him would be lethal, since you would get sucked in. He can improve to a style more like Magellans, which is sound.

We know that Luffy will Master haki so BB wont be invincible

 

[Razh]

I'm more in favor of some other powers since that would make him too powerful. Drawing in stuff that is in the field of his darkness is a nice way to balance out things.

But as I wrote before I think he should be able to do something more interesting. Nobody bothered to discuss about it though.

Well, since he is darkness and can produce dark holes, why not produce dark matter projectiles? Like small dark matter comets. He can produce darkness anyway.
And since he can do stuff that black holes can't do, like release absorbed objects, maybe he can do some other interesting stuff. Like increase or decrease his own weight or mass, making himself heavier or lighter. You know, manipulate gravity in order to make himself more mobile. That would be interesting. And it would compensate a little for his inability to avoid attacks.

 

[Gecko Moria]

On what are u basing this on?

They have evidently had their fruits for a longer period of time, therefore having more experience with it.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/
Example of Kizaru being taken by surprise (i.e. not being aware) but still surviving~
And I'm certain if you take a good look through the Baroque Works saga, you can find an example of Crocodile automatically turning as well.

 

[BlackHair]

We had a similar discussion months ago (Tenryuken, Onomatopoeia and me).

Like u said, out of surprise (out of nowhere) means if the logia user is not aware (prepared) of what is coming next. As Luffy crashed into Smoker and Ace, both were not prepared, since they were focused on each other. Now about Appo and Kizaru, I wouldn't count that as "out of nowhere". As u can see, he revealed himself from hiding and started to play music (Panel 5). In the next panels he is playing that music, Oda even focused on that for about a page, only then he hits him. Kizaru had plenty of time to "switch". It is not out of surprise, if u reveal urself and start to play music and I also don't think "switching" takes a lot of time.

Besides Kizaru was fighting those guys. He was must have been prepared to be get hit in anyway, since he was fighting more than one opponent, with different DF ability, of which he didn't had any knowledge.

They have evidently had their fruits for a longer period of time, therefore having more experience with it.

I agree with u. But I think to learn switching is one of the easiest things of the logia abilitys. If we consider that Kalifa and Kaku, who just eaten their fruits before fighting the SHs, had plenty of control over their ability, especially Kaku, who could already transform into all forms of zoan.

About Croco, Im too lazy to check right now, but Im planing on re-watching the Alabasta arc, so I will pay attention to that. But atm I don't recall any events which could disprove my viewpoint.

 

[Dice]

Well you could still say that he was in "combat-mode"...ready to be hit. He couldn't see the attack coming so he couldn't react by himself but his body was still able to do it.

Just imagine that Ace saw the bullets coming and the very moment they were about to hit him he choose to let them through. Between each bullet there was a little intervall that must be to short to react. So it's reasonable that he stayed in his "let them through"-mode. And I guess for a logia it shoudn't be to difficult to stay in this mode for the time of fight.

"Why could Luffy hit him anyway if he just could stay in this mode 24/7?" you might ask. Well my answer would be that it's just to stressful to think that you could be hit every second of a day. You need some time to relax. And most of the high tier should be able to handle an attack (though this makes ambushes on logia possible).


A little bit offtopic. But maybe somebody knows the Thief-series. You could knock out your opponents with the black jack as long they didn't know you were around. As soon they were cautious because of something (a sound, a corpse) it wasn't possible to knock them out like before (if I remeber correctly).

 

[BlackHair]

I actually had pretty similar thoughts like u Dice. About switching into different modes. At this point I don't see any other logical explanation.

I forget to write that above about Kiz's statement. In stephen translation Kizaru said: "Ooooh...That was a surprise...". I interpret that as he wasn't expecting to get blown up by just music. It is not like the crash with Ace/Smoker. He saw an attack coming, since he was right in front of his eyes.

 

[Gecko Moria]

We had a similar discussion months ago (Tenryuken, Onomatopoeia and me).

Like u said, out of surprise (out of nowhere) means if the logia user is not aware (prepared) of what is coming next. As Luffy crashed into Smoker and Ace, both were not prepared, since they were focused on each other. Now about Appo and Kizaru, I wouldn't count that as "out of nowhere". As u can see, he revealed himself from hiding and started to play music (Panel 5). In the next panels he is playing that music, Oda even focused on that for about a page, only then he hits him. Kizaru had plenty of time to "switch". It is not out of surprise, if u reveal urself and start to play music and I also don't think "switching" takes a lot of time.

Besides Kizaru was fighting those guys. He was must have been prepared to be get hit in anyway, since he was fighting more than one opponent, with different DF ability, of which he didn't had any knowledge.

I agree with u. But I think to learn switching is one of the easiest things of the logia abilitys. If we consider that Kalifa and Kaku, who just eaten their fruits before fighting the SHs, had plenty of control over their ability, especially Kaku, who could already transform into all forms of zoan.

About Croco, Im too lazy to check right now, but Im planing on re-watching the Alabasta arc, so I will pay attention to that. But atm I don't recall any events which could disprove my viewpoint.

Kizaru didn't know the music would blow him to pieces (generally music doesn't ) that's why he was surprised. Any normal person would be dead after getting blown up but Kizaru isn't even though he didn't see it coming and had not already turned into his element (i.e. light).

I think the problem here is that you do not understand what I'm arguing. You think I'm saying that the logia ability to transform into their element state is extremely difficult. This is not the case. As you said above, learning to switch states is one of the easiest bits of a logia's abilities. All the logias can do it when they want to or think about it[/I]. What I'm saying is difficult is the ability to switch when they have not thought about it i.e. automatically. So even when someone launches a sneak attack on them, the attack will still unaffect them. Like the Kizaru example.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Bottom line is Ace landed a ton of hits on him. Had that Been Mihawk he would be as good as dead.

You're using this as an argument that Blackbeard is weak? He can take hits that others need to dodge, what a weakling?

And I agree with Dice, people in one piece get chopped with swords every other minute and don't immediately drop dead. Blackbeard didn't try to dodge attacks because he doesn't have to, he doesn't need to compensate, he can take it. If Mihawk can't that's Mihawk's problem.