Shounen Bleach by Tite Kubo

[reesestl]

Yeah but my point was that ichigo's insecurities were about him being afraid of failing. Which then you restated. And then somehow concluded it proved ichigo was not a natural born killer.

I don't think ichigo needs to enjoy killing to be a natural born killer. Anyways, my point originally was about ichigo's willingness to kill in response to the idea that ichigo is unwilling to kill. Which as far as I can tell is objectively wrong because everything so far suggests ichigo is more than willing to end the life of his enemies (because he has gone for the kill in the vast majority if not all of his fights) and we have never seen him struggle with the idea of taking a life.

OK!! I can add more, but my buzz is wearing off and I don't think I will be able to convince you about the "hocus-pocus" part of my argument ...XD

I was thinking and one thing that makes Ichigo either more or less disturbing, depending on how you choose to look at it I suppose, is that even though he's a Shinigami and it's his duty to purify Hollows, he does kind of value their lives as they are. I mean, he might have actually been doing a favour for the human Grimmjow used to be if he actually finished him off. Maybe that guy wouldn't actually want to be a savage killing machine. But I dunno, I guess it kind of puts a different spin on it - either Ichigo is being cruel by letting lost souls continue being that, or he's ruthlessly destroying Hollows even though they're a form of life he respects. I mean, that's one way to look at it, I know I'm probably overthinking. Just a thought I had...

I also had the similar idea, like, shouldn't he kill Nel, but then put that to overthinking!! But, even with the Arrancars, I liked how each represented some cause of death, how Ulquiorra reflected emptiness. Compared to that, this arc seems to be strange, as Quincies keep claiming to be holy and good while planning to murder everyone and you don't know what to make out of it.

 

[kkck]

I was thinking and one thing that makes Ichigo either more or less disturbing, depending on how you choose to look at it I suppose, is that even though he's a Shinigami and it's his duty to purify Hollows, he does kind of value their lives as they are. I mean, he might have actually been doing a favour for the human Grimmjow used to be if he actually finished him off. Maybe that guy wouldn't actually want to be a savage killing machine. But I dunno, I guess it kind of puts a different spin on it - either Ichigo is being cruel by letting lost souls continue being that, or he's ruthlessly destroying Hollows even though they're a form of life he respects. I mean, that's one way to look at it, I know I'm probably overthinking. Just a thought I had...

Well, I think this depends on the specific hollow to an extent and arrancar as a whole are fundamentally different. Overall we should make a number of distinctions here and consider that there is plenty we don't really know. It would be a cruelty to let unintelligent hollows simply roam around as they are truly monsters that exist to eat souls. But once you have intelligent hollows we have seen beyond reasonable doubt that they are full fledged individuals capable of making their own decisions. Provided we are talking about a hollow which is not hunting down humans I don't see a reason to necessarily put it down so to speak.

And then we have arrancar. They are intelligent beings who don't even devolve as far as we know (hollows stop devolving under certain circumstances as well) and don't even need to devour souls to sustain themselves. Yami did it but so far it doesn't seem like they necessarily have to do it. I doubt SS would have been cool with the remaining arrancar just eating souls... Which makes sense with the fact that they are hybrids. I am pretty sure we have seen them at least drink stuff. And consider the arrancar that survived the war. They went on to live peaceful lives under harribel. So if they are minding their own business in a separate world without harming anyone then why harm them?

As for doing it for the person they used to be... Does that make sense? Sure, grimmjow might have been someone else who wouldn't perhaps like what grimmjow is today. But what about the person grimmjow is indeed today? Is his opinion less relevant? He probably does not even remember being human at all. As for the hollows which originally came together to form a new gillian.... couldn't we make the case that they are just dead and out of the equation? We saw the balance of the world was lost and restored with 28k souls IIRC. That could easily be a dozen or two gillians. If each one actually contained that many souls then killing them altogether would be inadvisable and yet we know shinigami are quite liberal regarding this.

 

[reesestl]

That's kind of what I thought. Actually being made up of multiple Hollows is specific to Menos, remember Grand Fisher who was just a normal Hollow, albeit a powerful one, got made into an Arrancar. But yeah, the way I imagine it is that advanced Menos (Adjuchas and VL and some Gillians) are the ones where one individual Hollow was strong enough to take over. So I guess that is the one that gets purified and sent to SS. I'd assume all the Hollows it ate that became a part of it are gone forever as soon as they're eaten, and they must be removed from the whole cycle of souls. Well, that's my speculation anyway. I guess it's also possible that every Hollow inside gets purified. I wonder about standard Gillians where no one Hollow's identity survives as well...

I think it may be better to differentiate b/w no. of souls and total soul energy. That way, we can say, even if some souls are lost total soul energy remains the same. Because, the higher level Menos' soul energy is from all the other souls which go on to make it.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Well, I think this depends on the specific hollow to an extent and arrancar as a whole are fundamentally different. Overall we should make a number of distinctions here and consider that there is plenty we don't really know. It would be a cruelty to let unintelligent hollows simply roam around as they are truly monsters that exist to eat souls. But once you have intelligent hollows we have seen beyond reasonable doubt that they are full fledged individuals capable of making their own decisions. Provided we are talking about a hollow which is not hunting down humans I don't see a reason to necessarily put it down so to speak.

And then we have arrancar. They are intelligent beings who don't even devolve as far as we know (hollows stop devolving under certain circumstances as well) and don't even need to devour souls to sustain themselves. Yami did it but so far it doesn't seem like they necessarily have to do it. I doubt SS would have been cool with the remaining arrancar just eating souls... Which makes sense with the fact that they are hybrids. I am pretty sure we have seen them at least drink stuff. And consider the arrancar that survived the war. They went on to live peaceful lives under harribel. So if they are minding their own business in a separate world without harming anyone then why harm them?

As for doing it for the person they used to be... Does that make sense? Sure, grimmjow might have been someone else who wouldn't perhaps like what grimmjow is today. But what about the person grimmjow is indeed today? Is his opinion less relevant? He probably does not even remember being human at all. As for the hollows which originally came together to form a new gillian.... couldn't we make the case that they are just dead and out of the equation? We saw the balance of the world was lost and restored with 28k souls IIRC. That could easily be a dozen or two gillians. If each one actually contained that many souls then killing them altogether would be inadvisable and yet we know shinigami are quite liberal regarding this.

Good points. I wasn't really thinking about it at the time, but it has crossed my mind in the past that Shinigami essentially fight to preserve a world where Hollows are bound to exist. In fact souls in Hueco Mundo are evidently necessary to maintain the balance of souls, hence the big fuss when the Wandenreich did that Hollow massacre right at the beginning of the arc. Could be a major part of the Quincy beef, because with their Hollow allergy (that hasn't once been brought up since we were told about it, but whatevs) it boils down to the powers that be basically siding with Hollows over Quincy. Hollows are needed and Quincy just have to deal with it and take their chances, or else be wiped out.

Anyway, yeah. I guess since Arrancar and Menos have no need for human souls they're technically harmless in the scheme of things. Still though, many of them are half-mad animals who just happen to have human shape. Remember that hell arc chapter where Szayel Aporro and Aaroniero were shown going to hell? That's because they were bastards in life, but then on the flipside Yammy (a rampaging maniac), Ulquiorra (an emotionless ghost), even Nnoitra (quite possibly the Espada's biggest dickhead) were each just a normal person in life who had the misfortune of being too miserable/angry, etc. to be dead, or too attached to something from life, to go straight to Soul Society. Guess I'm just saying it makes me wonder about the righteousness of leaving them alive, but then neither we nor Ichigo have the information to make that judgement. So it's fair enough that he'd let them live when he can, but I still would point out that he didn't really give a shit that he killed Ulquiorra, just that he didn't win the way he wanted to. Maybe his attitude is just "spare who I can, if they happen to die, no worries, they'll just go to SS".

 

[reesestl]

Good points. I wasn't really thinking about it at the time, but it has crossed my mind in the past that Shinigami essentially fight to preserve a world where Hollows are bound to exist. In fact souls in Hueco Mundo are evidently necessary to maintain the balance of souls, hence the big fuss when the Wandenreich did that Hollow massacre right at the beginning of the arc. Could be a major part of the Quincy beef, because with their Hollow allergy (that hasn't once been brought up since we were told about it, but whatevs) it boils down to the powers that be basically siding with Hollows over Quincy. Hollows are needed and Quincy just have to deal with it and take their chances, or else be wiped out.

Anyway, yeah. I guess since Arrancar and Menos have no need for human souls they're technically harmless in the scheme of things. Still though, many of them are half-mad animals who just happen to have human shape. Remember that hell arc chapter where Szayel Aporro and Aaroniero were shown going to hell? That's because they were bastards in life, but then on the flipside Yammy (a rampaging maniac), Ulquiorra (an emotionless ghost), even Nnoitra (quite possibly the Espada's biggest dickhead) were each just a normal person in life who had the misfortune of being too miserable/angry, etc. to be dead, or too attached to something from life, to go straight to Soul Society. Guess I'm just saying it makes me wonder about the righteousness of leaving them alive, but then neither we nor Ichigo have the information to make that judgement. So it's fair enough that he'd let them live when he can, but I still would point out that he didn't really give a shit that he killed Ulquiorra, just that he didn't win the way he wanted to. Maybe his attitude is just "spare who I can, if they happen to die, no worries, they'll just go to SS".

Hollows and Hueco Mundo are not needed to maintain the balance of souls. What is important for balance is souls are not destroyed as id done by Quincies. Don't Arrancar and Menos kill people and suck there soul. When Yammy first case she sucked a large number of souls and complained about the taste. Ulquiorra said that's because he is absorbing weak souls. SUcking souls make them stronger.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Hollows and Hueco Mundo are not needed to maintain the balance of souls. What is important for balance is souls are not destroyed as id done by Quincies. Don't Arrancar and Menos kill people and suck there soul. When Yammy first case she sucked a large number of souls and complained about the taste. Ulquiorra said that's because he is absorbing weak souls. SUcking souls make them stronger.

Hollows have to factor into the balance of souls, otherwise the Quincy's destruction of them wouldn't be an issue. Plus we saw in the beginning of the arc that the Quincy slaughtering huge amounts of Hollows led to Mayuri having to disappear a load of Rukongai citizens to correct the balance. So it seems that HM weighs in on the same side as the Material World. Also Menos (which all of Aizen's Arrancar were) are Hollows that got to the point that human souls don't satisfy them any more and they go on to eat other Hollows, that's why Yammy found the human souls he ate disgusting. But it's never been made clear exactly what Arrancar eat. Yammy was shown eating a load of meat, which I assume was a load of butchered Hollows, cos what else could it be? Nel once said something about Pesche having lunch ready too now that I think about it. Anyway, Aizen's Arrancar should all be beyond eating human souls.
Makes me wonder what Aizen and pals did for food while they were living in Las Noches lol...

 

[kkck]

Well, from what I can tell HM and the hollows there are "outside" the flow of souls. Souls only flow between the spiritual and the physical world after all. The issue is that when hollows are destroyed they return to flow of souls between worlds thus upsetting the balance. In that regard perhaps HM can be said to serve a specific purpose in regards to the balance, to hold souls which can't yet access it due to a potential inbalance.

 

[reesestl]

Hollows have to factor into the balance of souls, otherwise the Quincy's destruction of them wouldn't be an issue. Plus we saw in the beginning of the arc that the Quincy slaughtering huge amounts of Hollows led to Mayuri having to disappear a load of Rukongai citizens to correct the balance. So it seems that HM weighs in on the same side as the Material World. Also Menos (which all of Aizen's Arrancar were) are Hollows that got to the point that human souls don't satisfy them any more and they go on to eat other Hollows, that's why Yammy found the human souls he ate disgusting. But it's never been made clear exactly what Arrancar eat. Yammy was shown eating a load of meat, which I assume was a load of butchered Hollows, cos what else could it be? Nel once said something about Pesche having lunch ready too now that I think about it. Anyway, Aizen's Arrancar should all be beyond eating human souls.
Makes me wonder what Aizen and pals did for food while they were living in Las Noches lol...

When Yammy first came to earth, when Ichigo cut his hand and Urahara,Yoruichi joined the fight that time he sucked the entire city's human souls practically.

HM i will check. But my problem is the implication is if world becomes a beter place, and there no hollows, that will disturb the balance!! I know about the Mayuri case, so the answer is they kill ppl from rukongai if fewer hollows are born.that is wierd.
One thing which is not clear. Humans die to go to Rukongai, so what happen when they are killed?

Plus Shinigami's job is to purify hollows as much as possible. If balance requires HM won't that they let hollows consume some plus without interfering!!

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---

Well, from what I can tell HM and the hollows there are "outside" the flow of souls. Souls only flow between the spiritual and the physical world after all. The issue is that when hollows are destroyed they return to flow of souls between worlds thus upsetting the balance. In that regard perhaps HM can be said to serve a specific purpose in regards to the balance, to hold souls which can't yet access it due to a potential inbalance.

If they are outside, then why does it matter if the QUincies destroy the Hollows? I think the balance b/w living and total dead souls. Living on one hand and SS,HM and Hell on the other.

 

[kkck]

If they are outside, then why does it matter if the QUincies destroy the Hollows? I think the balance b/w living and total dead souls. Living on one hand and SS,HM and Hell on the other.

Well, as my post says once hollows are destroyed they return to the flow of souls and thus are relevant again.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Well, from what I can tell HM and the hollows there are "outside" the flow of souls. Souls only flow between the spiritual and the physical world after all. The issue is that when hollows are destroyed they return to flow of souls between worlds thus upsetting the balance. In that regard perhaps HM can be said to serve a specific purpose in regards to the balance, to hold souls which can't yet access it due to a potential inbalance.

afaik the problem with Quincy is they completely destroy Hollows, removing them from the flow of souls, leading to the numbers on the SS side becoming too high relative to the other side. When a Shinigami purifies a Hollow, then that souls goes to SS as a Plus. In that sense it makes sense that they only deal with Hollows who go on the rampage in the Material World. Given how long souls in SS live they have to have higher numbers than Earth, so HM would also need to weigh against SS. Or that's my understanding of the whole thing. HM would indeed effectively work as a kind of storage ground as souls in SS keep stacking up.
Since the SK exists to regulate the flow of souls perhaps he's the one actually blocking souls from entering SS, leading to the birth of more Hollows.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---

When Yammy first came to earth, when Ichigo cut his hand and Urahara,Yoruichi joined the fight that time he sucked the entire city's human souls practically.

HM i will check. But my problem is the implication is if world becomes a beter place, and there no hollows, that will disturb the balance!! I know about the Mayuri case, so the answer is they kill ppl from rukongai if fewer hollows are born.that is wierd.
One thing which is not clear. Humans die to go to Rukongai, so what happen when they are killed?

Yammy did eat those souls, but he didn't enjoy it, so humans likely weren't a part of his usual diet. Shinigami do purify Hollows, but only ones that raid the Material World for human souls, like Grand Fisher. They never made a policy of invading HM and slaying Hollows there. In fact they didn't even seem to know how to get into SS until they had Urahara work out the Garganta - they just left Hollows in HM to mind their own business.
On souls in Rukongai, IIRC once they die, they get reincarnated in the Material World as a new person, same for Shinigami. Presumably that's as long as they aren't eaten by a Hollow or killed by a Quincy, but then I don't know if Quincy arrows only destroy Hollows and affect Shinigami differently.

 

[Holt]

For me the main issue with this is context. Unohana was in it in order to get kenpachi to his full power but towards the end the point was also made that she wanted to enjoy battle once again. I am not so sure that killing kenpachi would ultimately be tiresome for her considering how little effort she put into it at first. And we know for a fact that healing someone uses reiatsu from the user and the target as well, unohana explained that much to ichigo. And towards the end of the fight both of them went at it full strength. I would think this was representative of both their powers. If there is a handicap here I would think it is more likely that zaraki is the one suffering it.

I don't think the fight between kenpachi and unohana when kenpachi was a kid is very relevant here.

Well, but KOing multiple sternriter is not much of an indication of anything. It depends on which ones you face after all. Byakuya is able to do this as well for instance. And he did it to freaking robert, the guy who seemingly fought on par with shunsui and shot his eye. And right now we are seeing byakuya along with hitsugaya (whose bankai remains relevant here) and other captains getting owned here (although byakuya has not yet used senkei) and even then shikai kenpachi was basically the only one able to do anything against gerard and easily overpowered him with bankai.

I'd say reiatsu can indeed be used to resist the flames. If the heat is reiatsu based then reiatsu can definitely resist it, that is how the manga works. Otherwise the implication would be that this heat works as heat works with normal living things and everything would have been destroyed regardless of reiatsu.

And the heat is not an attack, it is simply how yamamoto's reiatsu manifests itself. Literally pure reiatsu. I don't think zaraki needs an overwhelming amount of reiatsu greater than yamamoto to resist this. He would definitely need it to not get obliterated by yamamoto's actual attacks or reiatsu cloak but he could probably still attack with his own weapons.

Well of course she enjoyed the battle. She's a Kenpachi, that stuff is literally in their blood. We saw Kenpachi smiling like a psycho despite being nearly bifurcated by Gerard's blade. Their actual state/condition hardly impairs their enjoyment.

Does it matter that it takes from both? Point is, in a proper fight, she would be using that to heal herself instead. That was actually why she learnt healing arts to begin with. It was to prolong her fights.

How can Zaraki be the one with a handicap? He was literally getting stronger each time (well more unsealing his powers but same thing). It doesn't matter how easy Unohana had it at the beginning. It would steadily gotten harder each time she killed him until the time he eventually did kill her. It's more reiatsu for zaraki with time, and less for unohana as well as her healing his wounds with each passing. Yes, towards the end, they went at it with full strength but that doesn't mean they both automatically were restored to their peak, well, except Zaraki.

True, KOing multiple SRs might not be a clear decisive thing anymore but it isn't exactly irrelevant. Also, it's not really that Byakuya and Hitsugaya have been helpless or useless. The thing is that they're not a quarter as reckless as Zaraki. Zaraki came here to have a great time and damn the consequences. Byakuya and Hitsugaya are considering possible repercussions. We also saw that despite Gerard's numerous attacks on Byakuya, the latter is relatively unscathed. Also, Byakuya did block Gerard's attack aimed at Hitsugaya iirc. It's not that Byakuya hasn't been helpless, he knows that cutting up Gerard isn't going to do anything but make him stronger so he wouldn't indulge in that and as mentioned. Zaraki nearly got killed due to his bullheaded attacks. Right before Yachiru showed up and offered bankai, Zaraki was pretty much done but Hitsugaya and Byakuya were still up and about. Zaraki didn't exactly fare any better against Gerard. He just opted for straight attacks regardless.

Actually, the heat itself aren't flames. That's just the form his reiatsu appears at. Further more, I checked and it's actually a technique, it's West of Zanka no Tachi. It's not the flames that induce the heat, that's the appearance of his reiatsu. The actual heat is a technique.

Spoiler

As seen there, haschwalth correctly states that such heat wouldn't be expressed in flames. Yama allowed that to show in order to give a visual representation. So the flames that appear is indeed his reiatsu which can indeed be resisted. As in, Zaraki wouldn't start gasping or anything. But the heat of the technique itself isn't visible but it still in effect. Fake Bach makes the point that he literally feels like he's burning. He states that it's only because of Blut Vene that he isn't dead yet but that doesn't prevent him from feeling the effects of the intense heat. It's not something that can be bulldozed by reiatsu. Also, all attacks are based on reiatsu, even up to kido. To say that they can be resisted like that literally means that Zaraki is impervious to attacks of any pretty much any nature. I'm not saying Zaraki would get obliterated by ZnT West but it's a pretty key point. He has no actual defense to shield him from the heat and its effects.

 

[kkck]

Well of course she enjoyed the battle. She's a Kenpachi, that stuff is literally in their blood. We saw Kenpachi smiling like a psycho despite being nearly bifurcated by Gerard's blade. Their actual state/condition hardly impairs their enjoyment.

Does it matter that it takes from both? Point is, in a proper fight, she would be using that to heal herself instead. That was actually why she learnt healing arts to begin with. It was to prolong her fights.

How can Zaraki be the one with a handicap? He was literally getting stronger each time (well more unsealing his powers but same thing). It doesn't matter how easy Unohana had it at the beginning. It would steadily gotten harder each time she killed him until the time he eventually did kill her. It's more reiatsu for zaraki with time, and less for unohana as well as her healing his wounds with each passing. Yes, towards the end, they went at it with full strength but that doesn't mean they both automatically were restored to their peak, well, except Zaraki.

True, KOing multiple SRs might not be a clear decisive thing anymore but it isn't exactly irrelevant. Also, it's not really that Byakuya and Hitsugaya have been helpless or useless. The thing is that they're not a quarter as reckless as Zaraki. Zaraki came here to have a great time and damn the consequences. Byakuya and Hitsugaya are considering possible repercussions. We also saw that despite Gerard's numerous attacks on Byakuya, the latter is relatively unscathed. Also, Byakuya did block Gerard's attack aimed at Hitsugaya iirc. It's not that Byakuya hasn't been helpless, he knows that cutting up Gerard isn't going to do anything but make him stronger so he wouldn't indulge in that and as mentioned. Zaraki nearly got killed due to his bullheaded attacks. Right before Yachiru showed up and offered bankai, Zaraki was pretty much done but Hitsugaya and Byakuya were still up and about. Zaraki didn't exactly fare any better against Gerard. He just opted for straight attacks regardless.

Actually, the heat itself aren't flames. That's just the form his reiatsu appears at. Further more, I checked and it's actually a technique, it's West of Zanka no Tachi. It's not the flames that induce the heat, that's the appearance of his reiatsu. The actual heat is a technique.

As seen there, haschwalth correctly states that such heat wouldn't be expressed in flames. Yama allowed that to show in order to give a visual representation. So the flames that appear is indeed his reiatsu which can indeed be resisted. As in, Zaraki wouldn't start gasping or anything. But the heat of the technique itself isn't visible but it still in effect. Fake Bach makes the point that he literally feels like he's burning. He states that it's only because of Blut Vene that he isn't dead yet but that doesn't prevent him from feeling the effects of the intense heat. It's not something that can be bulldozed by reiatsu. Also, all attacks are based on reiatsu, even up to kido. To say that they can be resisted like that literally means that Zaraki is impervious to attacks of any pretty much any nature. I'm not saying Zaraki would get obliterated by ZnT West but it's a pretty key point. He has no actual defense to shield him from the heat and its effects.

My point is not that she enjoyed the battle. But rather that she went seriously at it, that she went to win. And neither would have found it a satisfying ending if the battle was ruined by such handicaps. So it makes sense that the result is a representative one.

Yes, it certainly matters because it would still be taking away strength from kenpachi. As the fight went on what we had was kenpachi taking wounds and being healed. Unohana merely healed the wounds. The one that was worst off from that exchange was definitely kenpachi even if he was stronger. If they fought to death after the training then the situation would either be the same as we saw or kenpachi would even have a greater advantage as he wouldn't have been borderline killed god knows how many times. We know for a fact that healing isn't outright magic, it takes time to fully recover.

It doesn't mean zaraki is impervious to damage. It might be hot but it is still reiatsu and can be resisted like any other reiatsu like attack. In this case what probably won't happen is zaraki getting outright obliterated from the heat around yamamoto. I wasn't talking about zaraki resisting the actual reiatsu flame armor around yamamoto, that one would be plenty lethal for kenpachi. I do think kenpachi with his sword can potentially exchange blows with yamamoto though. Bach did make the point that blut vene allowed him to survive but we have to consider kenpachi is probably well stronger than fake bach. Blut vene increases defense but if kenpachi is stronger he can potentially resist as well.

 

[Holt]

My point is not that she enjoyed the battle. But rather that she went seriously at it, that she went to win. And neither would have found it a satisfying ending if the battle was ruined by such handicaps. So it makes sense that the result is a representative one.

I didn't say she didn't go seriously at it. She certainly did. The handicaps mean little to her provided she gets a good fight and restore Zaraki. She didn't give squat about how many times she had to kill and heal him. It's indeed a representative one. The implication is that Zaraki is stronger, but it's not like the conditions should be ignored. She was able to basically 'kill' Zaraki how many times and restore him from wounds that might've been lethal. She can channel that to herself instead.

Yes, it certainly matters because it would still be taking away strength from kenpachi. As the fight went on what we had was kenpachi taking wounds and being healed. Unohana merely healed the wounds. The one that was worst off from that exchange was definitely kenpachi even if he was stronger. If they fought to death after the training then the situation would either be the same as we saw or kenpachi would even have a greater advantage as he wouldn't have been borderline killed god knows how many times. We know for a fact that healing isn't outright magic, it takes time to fully recover.

Except Zaraki didn't actually suffer from that because the strength and reiatsu that came with each death was always greater. He was constantly getting stronger in addition to her healing him.
Well getting killed borderline numerous time actually only resulted in positive effects. Heck we even saw what happened before when Zaraki almost died vs nnoitora. He went from basically dead to being stronger. The reversals end up restoring Zaraki despite his injuries and he had Unohana healing him on top of that.

It doesn't mean zaraki is impervious to damage. It might be hot but it is still reiatsu and can be resisted like any other reiatsu like attack. In this case what probably won't happen is zaraki getting outright obliterated from the heat around yamamoto. I wasn't talking about zaraki resisting the actual reiatsu flame armor around yamamoto, that one would be plenty lethal for kenpachi. I do think kenpachi with his sword can potentially exchange blows with yamamoto though. Bach did make the point that blut vene allowed him to survive but we have to consider kenpachi is probably well stronger than fake bach. Blut vene increases defense but if kenpachi is stronger he can potentially resist as well.

Ah, well, it's the flame armor I was referring to. Yes, Zaraki is well stronger than fake Bach but it's not like Zaraki has a defence ability. In the end, he's still going to have to go against the heat head on. Blut Vene certainly counts for a lot. We saw that with Ichigo when he barely got a scratch from an attack that would've likely beheaded him. Put Yama in the same situation and that head will likely roll even though his strength and reiatsu are clearly miles beyond that of SR Invasion Ichigo.

 

[Kiki]

Dear beloved Bleach members. Our upcoming event, Husbando Wars, is coming soon! It starts on August 22nd, 2016. Be sure to join!

 

[ninjabot]

Vid perfectly explains some things about the manga. Give it a watch anyone out there who's still wondering why Bleach got so much shit over the years lol.

 

[Kiki]

Finally! The most anticipated event has begun! Be sure to join, nominate your husbando here!​

 

[ninjabot]

One thing I want to say regarding the video. In Kubo's defense, he shouldn't be the only person getting shit for repeating his ideas. Just thinking about Toriyama's "I'm going to take the super Saiyan transformation, give it a different color and a new bullshit title" ass makes me want to hit something. And it's not like Kishimoto is free of that crap either. Mister, "I have to make every one of my major villains past a certain point have the sharingan eye or some form of it"

Funny thing about that though is that Toryiyama wasn't copying anyone else's work when he kept redoing super saiyain forms. He was also forced by his editor to do things like make the new forms and keep characters alive he otherwise wouldn't have. And for Kishimoto, doujutsu directly came from the strongest source of power in the ENTIRETY of the manga. The odds of any villains being higher than S class threats without that power would break his own story and simply not fit.

I say this every time the constant use of doujutsu is frowned upon because consistency matters. Anything less would've been an asspull. If say, a hidden clan we never heard of just wandered to Konoha from across the planet? And they were all threats against an Ashura or Indra incarnation? THAT would make more sense than someone showing up with a Sharingan or Rinnegan?

Fuck no it wouldn't. Aliens showing up in DBZ to rival the saiyains isn't quite the same because the story never made them out to be the universe's greatest power.

Now compare all of that to the fact that Bleach was essentially Yu Yu Hakusho 2.0 and trust me. There was a lot more shit people could call Kubo on than Kishimoto or Toriyama or Oda. Even with Naruto being likened to HunterXHunter a bit.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Funny thing about that though is that Toryiyama wasn't copying anyone else's work when he kept redoing super saiyain forms. He was also forced by his editor to do things like make the new forms and keep characters alive he otherwise wouldn't have. And for Kishimoto, doujutsu directly came from the strongest source of power in the ENTIRETY of the manga. The odds of any villains being higher than S class threats without that power would break his own story and simply not fit.

I say this every time the constant use of doujutsu is frowned upon because consistency matters. Anything less would've been an asspull. If say, a hidden clan we never heard of just wandered to Konoha from across the planet? And they were all threats against an Ashura or Indra incarnation? THAT would make more sense than someone showing up with a Sharingan or Rinnegan?

Fuck no it wouldn't. Aliens showing up in DBZ to rival the saiyains isn't quite the same because the story never made them out to be the universe's greatest power.

Now compare all of that to the fact that Bleach was essentially Yu Yu Hakusho 2.0 and trust me. There was a lot more shit people could call Kubo on than Kishimoto or Toriyama or Oda. Even with Naruto being likened to HunterXHunter a bit.

Okay, putting aside for a second that the issues with the eye techniques was a minor point. I will still say that Shin is the epitome of bullshit. Even if I agree with you that the concept of what you speak of makes sense. In that, given the origin of the eyes it would stand to reason that every major threat would have them. Which is a point that I never disagreed with, it just got really… Really tiresome. Consistency does matter, that doesn't mean things won't get damn repetitive and exhausting.

Also, I never likened the eyes in Naruto to the aliens in Dragon ball. The issue I find with that situation is bringing Freeza's irrelevant ass back and bumping him up to current standards of strength to essentially do the Namek arc over again. Right down to Vegeta getting killed, Freeza blowing up the planet and Goku having to kill him all because, according to the Internet fact check me if necessary (meaning I'm not sure this is entirely true which is why the phrase 'according to the Internet' was used), this mofo heard a damn song that wasn't something the editors forced upon him was it?

Just because Toriyama was essentially copy pasting from his own work doesn't make it better, not even a little bit. The video basically said that the point where Orihime screwed off and joined Aizen was essentially the same as the rescue Rukia arc. It's not something that I disagree with structurally. Putting aside whether or not he copied Togashi in overall concept, the main point that I was commenting on was him repeating his own plots. The biggest perpetrator of that that I see, that doesn't get half as much shit is Toriyama. Yeah, there could be a lot of other things that Kubo could be called out for. I don't deny that. The thing that pisses me off is Toriyama getting away with some of the same shit. Hell, even before I saw the video I knew that the guy went on record saying that he didn't have an overall plan for things. This is the same thing that I have seen people accuse Kubo of. And at some point an author has to take responsibility for their own work, it can't be the fault of the editors for everything. In saying that, I'm not implying that Toriyama doesn't deserve some slack for what some of his editors forced upon him. However, when does the fault fall with him? I'm also not implying that Kubo does not deserve shit for some of the things that he has done. Just to make that clear

People will sit here and eat up, super Saiyan God, super Saiyan blue, super Saiyan rose, super Saiyan Berry blast, super saiyan sparking silver, super Saiyan sunset orange and all other manner of super Saiyan bullshit. I swear Toriyama can get away with some shit that people eat other authors alive for. At least people over here. It irks the hell out of me.

 

[ninjabot]

Okay, putting aside for a second that the issues with the eye techniques was a minor point. I will still say that Shin is the epitome of bullshit. Even if I agree with you that the concept of what you speak of makes sense. In that, given the origin of the eyes it would stand to reason that every major threat would have them. Which is a point that I never disagreed with, it just got really… Really tiresome. Consistency does matter, that doesn't mean things won't get damn repetitive and exhausting.

*shrugs* My only regret with Shin was that we didn't get any unique team of clones with unique doujutsu. We could've had a cell of completely unique Sharingan wielders, all with badass Susanoo with their own unique weapons and the like. We got none of that. As for repetitiveness, that just depends on what you enjoy most about the manga. The doujutsu wielders were the coolest characters in the series sans Obito and Nagato IMO.

Also, I never likened the eyes in Naruto to the aliens in Dragon ball. The issue I find with that situation is bringing Freeza's irrelevant ass back and bumping him up to current standards of strength to essentially do the Namek arc over again. Right down to Vegeta getting killed, Freeza blowing up the planet and Goku having to kill him all because, according to the Internet fact check me if necessary (meaning I'm not sure this is entirely true which is why the phrase 'according to the Internet' was used), this mofo heard a damn song that wasn't something the editors forced upon him was it?

I know you didn't liken the eyes to the aliens. I did because it fits my argument about the repetitiveness of the doujutsu appearing in new threats. Super powerful badguy shows up, turns out they have one of the 3 legendary doujutsu (or two, or all of them), reveals a gamebreaking technique with it. Not only was this. In DBZ it was just "Badguy shows up looking for a fight/they're really strong." And so on and so on. Both Kishi and Tori have excuses for their arcs having similarities though. Kishi because at that point in the manga the threats, in order to be actual threats, had to have power comperable to Sasuke and Naruto, and that could only be done via doujutsu. For DBZ, every time Toriyama wanted to do something different the editors made him do what they thought was best. Things got repetitive because of their input. The over abundance of Super Saiyains even though Goku was always meant to be the only one. Vegeta even existing past the Frieza saga was also not his choice. Nor was making Goku the hero of the Buu Saga (that was supposed to be Gohan's official point where he surpasses dad fully. Like in the Cell saga.

Kubo had editors demanding things of him too, but they weren't demanding that he do the exact same thing in one arc as he did in the other. Shit's on him.

As for Fuukatsu no F, you're kinda right. Goku beats up Frieza, he lets his guard down and gets wounded by a random goon. Vegeta kills the guy then beats up Frieza as well. Frieza's about to be killed but gets angry and destroys Earth before Vegeta can deliver the final blow. Whis stops time and reverses it a few seconds before that, scolds Goku for being too lax (cause it resulted in earth being blown to smithereens), and playing around with Frieza, then he sends him back to the point where Frieza was about to destroy earth and Goku hits him with a lethal Kamehameha before it can happen.

Bringing Frieza back was kinda a fanservice thing as he's the most famous of DBZ villains (I'd always thought it was Broli, but that's only in the movies), Liken it to the entire Edo Tensei part of the Ninja World War in Naruto.

 

[Hakuteiken]

Moved this convo to here, it's less related to final discussion and more about a flexible topic, so, it should be fitting.