Discussion Conqueror's Haki Breakdown

[Hannibal Psyche]

You are the one arguing semantics. Your entire argument depends on MS' mistranslation.

A mistranslation? Laughable claim with all the evidence.

Aohige translated it, as did Mangastream, yet you claim is wrong without even looking for raws to translate.

Spoiler

p16
Rayleigh: This is the Color of Conqueror King (Haoh-shoku) Haki… the type of haki that can intimidate the opponent…!!
Those who become extremely famous in this world is often found to use this haki….
However… this Haoushoku can be controlled, but not trained.
This power is the will of the user himself…!! Its strength only grows as the user himself

Link: http://mangaspoilerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/one-piece-597-spoiler.html

Indonesian translation calls it intimidated too.

Spoiler

One Piece Anime translates it as Intimidated too.

Spoiler

You're going to say "it's non-canon", I guess that'd include all the Jet Pistols or Asuras too being non-canon since they're Anime, it gets ridiculous.

Where is your evidence that it's a mistranslation? What are your sources and references? I can confidently say, you have nil.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2016 ---

At most I have said that when it comes to clashes we don't really know what is going on.

It's there in Black and White. It's evident that throwing a fist at someone is an attempt to hurt them, however, your logic is like saying when 2 fist clashes, and nothing significant happens, your claim we don't really know what's happening, it makes no sense to make such a claim.

We're told CoC is the power to intimidate, so when 2 people clash, of course they're trying to intimidate the other. The word clash means 2 oppoising forces trying to negate or repel the other, wouldn't need to have much scientific background to intuitively understand this, so clearly, it's the 2 powers of intimidation clashing against the other with the winner succeeding even if not knocking the opponent out, it's really not a hard deduction to make in light of the vast amount of evidence.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

A mistranslation? Laughable claim with all the evidence.

Aohige translated it, as did Mangastream, yet you claim is wrong without even looking for raws to translate.

Spoiler

Link: http://mangaspoilerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/one-piece-597-spoiler.html

Indonesian translation calls it intimidated too.

Spoiler

One Piece Anime translates it as Intimidated too.

Spoiler

You're going to say "it's non-canon", I guess that'd include all the Jet Pistols or Asuras too being non-canon since they're Anime, it gets ridiculous.

Where is your evidence that it's a mistranslation? What are your sources and references? I can confidently say, you have nil.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2016 ---

It's there in Black and White. It's evident that throwing a fist at someone is an attempt to hurt them, however, your logic is like saying when 2 fist clashes, and nothing significant happens, your claim we don't really know what's happening, it makes no sense to make such a claim.

We're told CoC is the power to intimidate, so when 2 people clash, of course they're trying to intimidate the other. The word clash means 2 oppoising forces trying to negate or repel the other, wouldn't need to have much scientific background to intuitively understand this, so clearly, it's the 2 powers of intimidation clashing against the other with the winner succeeding even if not knocking the opponent out, it's really not a hard deduction to make in light of the vast amount of evidence.

You're not being very polite here. And this discussion isn't getting anywhere. So unless you have something substantial to back up your claim, I don't see the point of having this thread up.On the contrary from the looks of it you're getting a little aggravated here because no one is agreeing with you, and that shows from your tone which is less than polite.

And again the anime isn't the best source, the subs are FAN MADE. Same as MS. So unless you have the official translation, or something close to it, then that doesn't prove much. And in the case of foreign scans, they are often translations word to word of the English ones.
And even without that you have only one word "intimidate" that was used to base your whole theory on it. So far everything shows that the real effect of CoC is to knock out weak individuals. If people get intimidated it is indirectly.

 

[kkck]

A mistranslation? Laughable claim with all the evidence.

Aohige translated it, as did Mangastream, yet you claim is wrong without even looking for raws to translate.

Spoiler

Link: http://mangaspoilerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/one-piece-597-spoiler.html

Indonesian translation calls it intimidated too.One Piece Anime translates it as Intimidated too.You're going to say "it's non-canon", I guess that'd include all the Jet Pistols or Asuras too being non-canon since they're Anime, it gets ridiculous.

Where is your evidence that it's a mistranslation? What are your sources and references? I can confidently say, you have nil.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2016 ---

It's there in Black and White. It's evident that throwing a fist at someone is an attempt to hurt them, however, your logic is like saying when 2 fist clashes, and nothing significant happens, your claim we don't really know what's happening, it makes no sense to make such a claim.

We're told CoC is the power to intimidate, so when 2 people clash, of course they're trying to intimidate the other. The word clash means 2 oppoising forces trying to negate or repel the other, wouldn't need to have much scientific background to intuitively understand this, so clearly, it's the 2 powers of intimidation clashing against the other with the winner succeeding even if not knocking the opponent out, it's really not a hard deduction to make in light of the vast amount of evidence.

I did point out other translations which use "overpower" rather than intimidate. I don't know aohige translations but at least cnet translations tend to be more reliable than MS.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You're not being very polite here. And this discussion isn't getting anywhere. So unless you have something substantial to back up your claim, I don't see the point of having this thread up.On the contrary from the looks of it you're getting a little aggravated here because no one is agreeing with you, and that shows from your tone which is less than polite.

And again the anime isn't the best source, it's something that is FAN MADE. Same as MS. So unless you have the official translation, or something close to it, then that doesn't prove much. And in the case of foreign scans, they are often translations word to word of the English ones.
And even without that you have only one word "intimidate" that was used to base your whole theory on it. So far everything shows that the real effect of CoC is to knock out weak individuals. If people get intimidated it is indirectly.

Not at all, I'm not getting aggravated.

I'm just saying where is this claim that it's not intimidation, where's the proof or the consistent refuting from any source? Since when did Aohige's translation become good enough to disregard?

1. Aohige translated the Japanese of chapter 597 pertaining to CoC as the power to intimidate, it's not exactly Mangapanda translation.
   
2. The Anime translates it as Initmidatoin.
3. Indonesian Raw translates directly into intmidation.
4. Gorgon sisters said, "nothing to be afraid since he can't control CoC".

In all honesty, Rayleigh said if you can't control this power, you would intimidate, overwhelm or overpower the innocent. If overpowering or Overwhelming isn't intimidation, then why is rayleigh telling Luffy not to use it until he can control it?

Where exactly is your consistent implication or explicit sources that doesn't make it Intimidation? You're essentially claiming trusted translations as false simply because you disagree.

I'm simply saying there's no evidence you've provided that makes it out not to be intimidation.

Viz Translation says CoC is the power to Overwhelm, and that essentially means intimidate. What else could it mean?

Spoiler

Rayleigh also says, if not controlled, it'd overwhelm those not intending to Overwhelm. Making no distinctoin between strong or weak, so it does indeed affect everyone.

Spoiler

very translation more or less states the same thing, so it really isn't refutable except one has a completely different definition of Overwhelm.

And saying you don't see the purpose of this thread up is somewhat like saying one doesn't have the right to voice their opinion, aren;t we alloed to express simply because you disagree?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2016 ---

I did point out other translations which use "overpower" rather than intimidate. I don't know aohige translations but at least cnet translations tend to be more reliable than MS.

Your translation regardless of which you choose still alludes to intimidatoin.

The point is, can you find a panel where CoC isn't implying fear? And you simply won't, albet in clashes.

If you claim CoC is not the power to intimidate, then you have to concsistent explain how every instances its used in has nothing to do with intimidation.

If one panel contradicts your claim, then it's wrong as is the case in any logical hjypothesis.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Not at all, I'm not getting aggravated.

I'm just saying where is this claim that it's not intimidation, where's the proof or the consistent refuting from any source? Since when did Aohige's translation become good enough to disregard?

1. Aohige translated the Japanese of chapter 597 pertaining to CoC as the power to intimidate, it's not exactly Mangapanda translation.
   
2. The Anime translates it as Initmidatoin.
3. Indonesian Raw translates directly into intmidation.
4. Gorgon sisters said, "nothing to be afraid since he can't control CoC".

In all honesty, Rayleigh said if you can't control this power, you would intimidate, overwhelm or overpower the innocent. If overpowering or Overwhelming isn't intimidation, then why is rayleigh telling Luffy not to use it until he can control it?

Where exactly is your consistent implication or explicit sources that doesn't make it Intimidation? You're essentially claiming trusted translations as false simply because you disagree.

I'm simply saying there's no evidence you've provided that makes it out not to be intimidation.

Viz Translation says CoC is the power to Overwhelm, and that essentially means intimidate. What else could it mean?

Spoiler

Rayleigh also says, if not controlled, it'd overwhelm those not intending to Overwhelm. Making no distinctoin between strong or weak, so it does indeed affect everyone.

Spoiler

very translation more or less states the same thing, so it really isn't refutable except one has a completely different definition of Overwhelm.

And saying you don't see the purpose of this thread up is somewhat like saying one doesn't have the right to voice their opinion, aren;t we alloed to express simply because you disagree?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2016 ---

Your translation regardless of which you choose still alludes to intimidatoin.

The point is, can you find a panel where CoC isn't implying fear? And you simply won't, albet in clashes.

If you claim CoC is not the power to intimidate, then you have to concsistent explain how every instances its used in has nothing to do with intimidation.

If one panel contradicts your claim, then it's wrong as is the case in any logical hjypothesis.

Well that's weird, because reading your posts it seemed you were, even disregarding kkck's posts as fallacy.

All I'm trying to say here, is that there are tons of translations, and one word can be used for another, which is why we can't take it at face value.
One word alone is not enough to make a whole theory, or to make it sound like your cracked the secret of Conqueror's haki.
As for the examples you showed they can be explained in different ways, especially if we take Oda's comments about Haki into account.

So there isn't much substance to your whole theory at this point. Perhaps we need more data about CoC, that could suggest that it can normally intimidate. If not then I don't see how you can make your point here.

At any rate, please try to stay as civil as possible.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

All I'm trying to say here, is that there are tons of translations, and one word can be used for another, which is why we can't take it at face value.

The point is the Japanese translatin has one word, so it can't be disregarded. Words, have synonyms, but regardless, the context in which the synonym would be used in, will always mean the same thing, that's the point.

Soi, regardless of translation, the Word Intimidate, Overwhelm, Overpower mean the same thing.

Indonesian Raw translates as intimidate.

Can you honestly say that 2 words can't have the same meaning or imply the same thing? What is the difference between Intimidate, Overpower or Overwhelm.

I can easily use all three sentences and still have the same meaning:

1. That individual is intimidating/Overpowering/Overwhelming.
2. That individual has an overwhelming/Overpowering/Intimidating presence.
3. That individual's character is overpowering/Overwhelming/Intimidating.

What exactly makes this sentence different from what it means simply because of the word swap?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

The point is the Japanese translatin has one word, so it can't be disregarded. Words, have synonyms, but regardless, the context in which the synonym would be used in, will always mean the same thing, that's the point.

Soi, regardless of translation, the Word Intimidate, Overwhelm, Overpower mean the same thing.

Indonesian Raw translates as intimidate.

Can you honestly say that 2 words can't have the same meaning or imply the same thing? What is the difference between Intimidate, Overpower or Overwhelm.

I can easily use all three sentences and still have the same meaning:

1. That individual is intimidating/Overpowering/Overwhelming.
2. That individual has an overwhelming/Overpowering/Intimidating presence.
3. That individual's character is overpowering/Overwhelming/Intimidating.

What exactly makes this sentence different from what it means simply because of the word swap?

I don't think you or I know enough about languages to start arguing about why each translator uses a different word. Japanese to English translation can be quite difficult, and you won't find two translations that are exactly the same word to word.
Then you have other language teams who are so lazy they just take the english one, and translate it to their own language, whether it's Spanish or Indonesian or French.
What do you think happens when they do that? The original meaning gets lost. That is very common.

Also you have to remember that Japanese Kanji have two readings, and that they can thus being translated differently. Because of that it's not often to see the same word in Japanese being used in puns, like the word ******. Most people know it as "Pervert", but it also means "Transformation".
So because Japanese is such a unique language, one word can be used instead of another, and it's not rare to see teams use different words for the same meaning. It shouldn't be a literal translation, it's the meaning that matters. So overpower, overwhelm, intimidate, all serve the same purpose here. Because this is a Japanese to English translation, so it's not about translating things literally, but about preserving the original meaning.

But regardless, you're deliberatly ignoring my point, that you can't base an entire theory on just one word. That is the issue here, because you have only assumptions and your own interpretation about CoC and certain events. So your whole theory is build on the use of the word "intimidate".

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But regardless, you're deliberatly ignoring my point, that you can't base an entire theory on just one word. That is the issue here, because you have only assumptions and your own interpretation about CoC and certain events. So your whole theory is build on the use of the word "intimidate".

It's not assumptions, it's fact. Are you saying simply because I'm basing my analysis on a statement made by a character whose purpose was defining Haki ability? that I'm wrong? That's somewhat paradoxical. You're literally saying nothing in the Manga can be understood if you're not reading Japanese or almost literally a Japanese native.

Because this is a Japanese to English translation, so it's not about translating things literally, but about preserving the original meaning.

Then, why do you have any opinon on anything in the Manga since this is your reasoning? It's fair for me to say anything you claim about One Piece is wrong since you're not a native Japanese speaker which means any translation you've given lacks authenticity preservation.

With that said, I'll simply regard your opinion on this matter as nothing more than your impossibility to understand the Manga as you don't believe sources of translation cam preserve authenticity even if they're Viz; if by any chance you do have an opinion or absolute stance, it'd be a bit of a double standard since there are no credible translations according to yourself.

You've essentially said it's impossible for anyone who isn't reading the Manga in Japanese to have any understanding of One Piece.

Except you of course only read in Japanese.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Moderator Notice:
Locked because this whole thread isn't getting anywhere.~ ladylola

 

[ProGoddess]

It's good topic for discussion. However it's unfortunate that it has turned out negatively.

Everyone has different opinion and it should be respected regardless, even if it differs from one to the other. The saying, "No spark, no fire". However if the spark ignites the fire, then put it out instead of adding fuel.

I'm looking through the entire thread and read all the posts, and trying to comprehend how far-fetched and differences in the word play (so to speak) in terms of getting the closest meaning. I checked the translation in the Chinese version, which is pretty close to the Japanese language since both languages use the similar root. It appears that the Chinese version translated the word "intimidation" or "intimidate" as "deterrence" - that is to instill doubt or fear in order to prevent someone from doing something. If this is so, then CoC is indeed a kind of ability that would affect someone if it is cast on him/her. Perhaps the only difference is the degree of influence. For example, someone can have a higher tolerance of alcohol, while another gets knock out after a glass. However if a person drinks often, his/her tolerance of alcohol would increase (I'm talking about generally and in normal circumstances).

Rayleigh also explained about it using one's willpower, which I think if one has a stronger willpower than the caster, then the degree of influence will be lesser. While those who do not or has less willpower will fall prey to it. It's like people who have gone through very hard training in martial art for example, they usually have stronger will, concentration and determination.

I don't deny the premise of basing on just one word to conclude the whole meaning of CoC, but to look at the overall context of the definition. I wouldn't say it's wrong to link "overwhelm" or "overpower". These words are actually used to describe the meaning of the power of CoC and what it does, and how much its effects is after encountering it. In the Japanese and Chinese culture,
氣 (Ki / Qi) is described as a form of material energy, life force or energy flow in a person's body. Someone in this thread mentioned the term life force. Therefore in order to use such ability effectively, one would need to learn to control it well. This was probably why Rayleigh warned Luffy on not using it loosely until he can control it, so as not to hurt people around him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm opening the thread for further discussion (if any). I have noted that there are some others who may be interested in the topic. I know it's not new, but it's for the sake of those who may have some more insights, and for members who are new.

I hope to read more of your opinion or ideas.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Well I simply do not agree, this thread doesn't have much substance to it, and it arrived to a point where all Hannibal Psyche would argue about is the word "Intimidate" which is not used in all translations.

When making a thread, people should consider that it has to be something meaningful, something that is sure to garner the interest of the readers. Not just that but when theory-crafting, one should always verify the translations, even compare them to the original text, if he's able to read Japanese. And even without that, there are various tools on the internet that can help translate Japanese. And the anime is hardly a source for the canon, we should always go by the manga, and go to the better translation if it's available to us. Also one could argue that you can't base an entire theory on just one word, and then try to justify it by using some examples that are pretty vague, that could be at best be seen as circumstantial evidence.

But since @ProGoddess believes that our newer members deserve to take a look at this theory, which in my eyes doesn't hold, I'll let it pass. If really people are interested in this theory, despite its obvious flaws, then so be it. After all there's plenty of people online who enjoy tinfoil theories.

I'm not, so that is why I don't believe I will continue to take part in this discussion, but I'll simply address the issue that @Hannibal Psyche had raised about the translations, and whether or not one should be able to read Japanese in order to get a good grasp of the manga.
First of all, as usual, you like to twist my words. I never said that we can't absolutely trust any form of translation, just that we can't expect two translators to have the same exact translation at all times. Take Mangastream for example, while surely they are better than Mangapanda, whose translations tend to be confusing, but also inaccurate(like lately with Capone's bounty) they are said to often add other sentences and such that aren't always there in the original text. So in short they're not the most accurate team when it comes to translation, and this was particularily apparent when comparing their translation with that of the late Red Hawk scans who used to translate Nanatsu no Taizai. Because one of the members of RHS would post spoilers and such on our site, we got to interact with him and he would often point out to us the weird wording that MS would use, even adding stuff that wasn't there in the original text. So in short not every translator would choose the same wording, even though they work with the same text. Japanese to English(and any other language) translation is very tricky, because of the differences between the Japanese language and others, and because it is a very peculiar language in itself.

So how are we supposed to know anything about the manga? Like I said as long as the meaning is preserved, we can get the gist of it, and nothing prevents us to double check with other translations or even the Japanese raws. Yes I believe it can be interesting to check the Japanese text, and see if the translation is an accurate one, but that's not an easy task. Since even if you know the kana, and can use a Japanese dictionary, it won't be enough to explain the expressions and colloquial words that are unique to the Japanese culture. And it can't be a literal translation too .So you have to try to find out about the Japanese language and expressions.Obviously it's not something anyone can do.So that itself is a pretty much impossible task, for someone who is a noob to Japanese culture, and language.

So in the end we're left with wondering if we can completely rely on translations. To me that's not 100% accurate all the time, so we have to accept a certain degree of doubt about the translations, and not always take it a face value. Which is why to me it is absolutely preposterous that you would base your entire theory on just one word, when we have a rather lengthy explanation that followed, and that showed what CoC does, and that is certainly not intimidation, and if there was one it was indirectly, due to how the person is perceived.And you don't have much evidence of it, in fact it can be argued how these examples are either due to shock(Gorgon sisters) and some of the examples you've shown don't even qualify as CoC.Not just that but I showed that some words can be misleading, and we always have to look at the long explanation, case in point with Marco.

So as far as I'm concerned this discussion doesn't have much appeal, if all we're going to discuss if whether or not Rayleigh used the word intimidate, and based on it we should assume that CoC can be used to intimidate stronger opponents, when we have yet to see that happen. Because so far we haven't seen someone who is strong getting intimidated, so that pretty much proves that this theory isn't sound.

 

[GodOfDestruction]

Who do you think could be future Conquer's Haki users?
Here's mine
Blackbeard
All the Gorosei
Akainu
Aokiji
Robin
Ussop
Dragon
Kaido
Big Mom

If you have any put it in the comments.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Kaidou, Big Mam, and Dragon are the only ones I can see being shoe-ins for CoC. I don't think Marines will have it, it seems antithetical to their concepts of "Justice" (no matter how individually different they all are). It makes sense for the yonkou to have a conqueror's will (except BB, see below), and the leader of the RA who is also a D. definitely has the drive and bloodline to alter the will of others.

Gorosei... maybe one or two of them, if not then definitely some other characters we haven't met that have noble blood, especially if Doffy got it for that reason.

Any SHs that get surprise haki development won't be CoC, it doesn't need to be further watered down. Ussop got CoO already, and I suspect Robin will get CoA at some point- it'd be astoundingly useful with her DF.

I can see BB struggling to unlock it and failing, despite being a D. and being quite a conqueror of sorts. His underhanded tactics don't really match other CoC users' will to subvert the wills of others. All he does is to get his own way, not to change other people.

 

[Fox666]

Color of armament is a characteristic of natural-born leaders. That's true for all characters so far.

Gol D. Roger, Dragon or Blackbeard are obvious candidates. Despite Blackbeard despicable means, his original crew was loyal to him. In the World Government side, perhaps the Gorosei. But at principle the high-ranking Marines aren't natural leaders, they hold a position of authority, their subordinates have not chosen them.

 

[Tonix]

From the Strawhats I would say:
Zoro, because he has shown capable on several occasions of making the crew/Luffy take things a little more serious/see things his way.

Franky, because he has also proven himself as a strong charismatic leader, like when he gathered all the outcasts of W7 into his own gang, and when he rallied the dwarves into his own little army during the Dressrosa fighting. (Also not sure if this was in the manga, but he was a big source of motivation for the inhabitants of Dressrosa to try and stop the bird cage in the Anime.)

Brook, I see the power of his music as a sort of CoC, the ability to force people to dance or lull them to sleep with his music seems to match the description of CoC to me, but Oda may be going another direction with that power.

Non-Strawhats:
Smoker, I feel like as one of Luffy's longest nemeses, it would make sense for Smoker to have CoC, especially since he has always been shown to take the hard paths if it means accomplishing his goals.

Mihawk, tbh I can't really think of a strong argument for Mihawk having CoC, since he travels the seas alone in a coffin, although I suppose beating those wild gorillas on his island into submission could be considered a sign (like when Luffy tamed all the fighting seals on Alabasta) but if Zoro gets CoC I think it would be nice for Mihawk to have it as well, if only so that when Zoro finally takes the World's Strongest Swordsman title it will be based on his swordplay and not with a special power Mihawk doesn't have.

I'm not to sure any of the other Shichibukai will have CoC, none of their crews besides Boa and Dofla's have shown much loyalty/love for their leader. Crocodile had a bunch of people betray him without much thought. Perona tried to steal all the treasure and food Moriah had, and even went to live with Mihawk (I guess that could be another point in favor of Mihawk being a Conqueror), although Absalom and Hogback did show a lot of loyalty. Kuma is a mindless robot now. And Weebo seems to just do what his mom tells him, even though he obviously wants to kill different people than his mom wants him to kill. I'm not sure about Law yet

All of the Yonkou, I'm not sure this needs explanation, Chinjao described the fight for the title of Pirate King as all the Conqueror's clashing until only one remains, and the Yonkou definitely seem to be the closest to winning that clash.

 

[King Aegon 1]

Dragon
Garp
Kong
Another Rev Commander
Benn Becckman

 

[kkck]

Honestly, I would like to see all monster trio members being able to use conqueror's haki. Of course, not to the same degree as luffy considering luffy does have an affinity towards its. And we know rogers crew had at least 2 conqueror haki users, it would be an interesting way of having the strawhat crew as "surpassing" rogers.

 

[M3J]

Zoro at the very least, hopefully Sanji (though I don't see it) and/or Jinbei as well.

 

[Freid]

Zoro because he definitely has the King's quality that Chinjao spoke of, and in a different universe where he doesn't join the SHs but still becomes a pirate, he'd probably be one of Luffy's biggest rivals.

 

[FetherMan]

Whitebeard jr and Luffy will have an all out battle for Pirate King by the end of this series.