Discussion Crews strength - what you expect from now on

[kkck]

Well, oda did say shanks could have knocked out all 100000 under similar circumstances but that is not actually a cap on the strength of shank's haki. As far as we know shank's would have been able to knock out all 100000 people there however that is only because there were only 100000 there to begin with. The answer of whether shanks could do 200000 or 1000000 is not quite answered so saying shanks is just about twice as strong as luffy is still inaccurate. We know luffy's cap is 50000, we do not know shank's cap at all.

 

[Fox666]

So we have WB at 100%,
Probably an Admiral at 75%-85%
DD at probably 66%
WB commanders + Ace unhurt and rested at 50%-60%
Luffy at roughly 50%+

I don't think you can compare fighting strength and Haki. And probably the Haki of the Admirals is not that great, compared to Ace or Doflamingo.

 

[vagabond87]

I'm trying to put some numbers on the current topic about Luffy's power, given the statement from Oda, which i qouted some time ago. (Regarding Shanks KOing all the 100.000 soldiers on FI)

I think it's a fair point to assume that he was hinting us to the point that Luffy is at about 50% the strength of Shanks. I also think it's a fair point to assume that all Yonkous are roughly at the same level (dunno about BB though, more regarding the old WB, Shanks, Mum and Kaido). From here on I will add my own conclusions.

1. a Yonkou is stronger than a single Admiral, given they fight 1on1 and are unhurt in the beginning.
2. the old 3 Admirals are most likely the second most powerful individuals (except Dragon, Fujitora and Mihawk, since we know nothing about their actual power, but each has a title stating vast amounts of power).
3. after that we have practically everybody else, mostly based on assumption. We some outstanding individuals, like DD, though.

So we have WB at 100%,
Probably an Admiral at 75%-85%
DD at probably 66%
WB commanders + Ace unhurt and rested at 50%-60%
Luffy at roughly 50%+

I liked your post almost as whole yet I do think that Oda didnt meant that Shanks is 2x Luffy. Haki grows with training, especially CoC needs time to develop so its like mastering abilities not strength=haki. Shanks scared off seaking(it was most probably CoC haki) how many years before action that we see now? 12 years? Luffy trained it for 2 years and is half way where Shanks stands. CoC is persons willpower and developing/ training so Luffy in just few more years can close gap. Also gaps between characters that you pointed for me are kind of smaller. Yet all in all nice post.

 

[David Rose]

Well, oda did say shanks could have knocked out all 100000 under similar circumstances but that is not actually a cap on the strength of shank's haki. As far as we know shank's would have been able to knock out all 100000 people there however that is only because there were only 100000 there to begin with. The answer of whether shanks could do 200000 or 1000000 is not quite answered so saying shanks is just about twice as strong as luffy is still inaccurate. We know luffy's cap is 50000, we do not know shank's cap at all.

Well, as far as i know Oda i would be willing to make the following assumption: If there were 200.000 men in FI and Shanks would have been able to knock them all out, then Luffy would have knocked out 100.000. C'mon, give the man some credit. After all his foreshadowing, the general insight and his well weighted qoutes we can pretty much aussme there's not a single detail he didn'nt plan and just said for fun. I think he has more of a sadistic appraoch, giving us small hints throughout to keep us babbling, just to later wrap them all up for maximum benefit. Oda's quite good at marketing, don't you forget that. :P

I don't think you can compare fighting strength and Haki. And probably the Haki of the Admirals is not that great, compared to Ace or Doflamingo.

From what we've seen so far in the series, the Haki of a logia user must be at least as strong as the Haki imbued in the attack, to maintain their elemental state. This means Haki can cancel itself out if opposed by an equal or weaker force. This could lead to the assumption, that you would even get hurt, if you attack an Admiral like Akainu with a much weaker Haki, since his defence cancels you offense and your bare fist punches his magma.

I liked your post almost as whole yet I do think that Oda didnt meant that Shanks is 2x Luffy. Haki grows with training, especially CoC needs time to develop so its like mastering abilities not strength=haki. Shanks scared off seaking(it was most probably CoC haki) how many years before action that we see now? 12 years? Luffy trained it for 2 years and is half way where Shanks stands. CoC is persons willpower and developing/ training so Luffy in just few more years can close gap. Also gaps between characters that you pointed for me are kind of smaller. Yet all in all nice post.

You mean that sea king, that Luffy defeated with a single blow, right at the beginning of his journey? :P I think we can't really take that much into the discussion, since it's too early in the manga. If Shanks Haki would've been that strong he may have done other things regarding the bandits aswell completely disarming the situation at the beginning, who knows? :P
Since the king's disposition can't be trained and is much more like a physical manifestation of the users willpower and general strength of his character it naturally increases if the person masters difficult emotional situations. In my opinion Luffy's current Haki is as strong as it was pre-timeskip, since his character itself hasn't really developed in that time. He became more of a man, but also learned to master what he already had in the first place. From now on, in time, he will actually begin to improve.

I wrote something in a seemingly dead thread that may be a benefit to this topic. At least it gives some insight on my interpretation of Haki. If you are willing to read that bunch of text aswell. :P

Yet another interesting "old" post.

My thoughts about Shank's Haki affecting Whitebeard's ship is:
Conquerer's Haki is the manifestation of the users spirit. When you use it, it creates an invisible sphere around you and every beeing in that will be affected by your spirit. The spirit manifests as spiritual pressure, like in a pressure cooker. If you can't handle it you'll pass out and your body collapses.
The user usually sends his spirit out in a powerfull burst, overwhelming weak targets with a huge range of effectiveness.
When it comes to Shanks, we can assume he's able to controll his Haki to a nearly perfect extent, probably 95-98% (there has to be some room for Luffy to surpass him). This enables him to not only project his spirit as a burst, but constanrly emit the pressure in the form of a dome around him. The range is not as big, but the pressure is stronger, since it's lasting much much longer.
Since the normal use of Haki usually causes some kind of wind (or dust beeing stirred up) it would be only natural for this form of usage and the pressure of Shanks spirit to affect weaker structures such as wooden planks.
When he clashed his sabre with WB they both emitted their spirits on a big scale, thus the pressure grew that intense to even split the heavens. Thinking about Haoshoku Haki in this way, as a physical manifestation, like CoA, makes it much more comprehendible and gives the whole matter a frame you can apply fixed rules on. Instead of this whole mythical power thing. :P

As for combat between two Haki users i think everything has been said. :P

 

[kkck]

You know oda? OMG INTRODUCE US ALL NOW!

Jokes aside though, I don't think oda necessarily wanted to make the point that shanks is twice as strong as luffy right now. For one thing it is a bit of a limitation to the plot. Establishing a power level is invariably an issue for authors and they are kinda hard to maintain in the long run. Oveall saying that luffy has half the strength of current shanks is a pretty big statement, too big for it to be said so casually in an SBS, specially considering that oda actually seems to have made a point of hiding just how the stronger characters compare to others. The most reasonable approach we could take to this wouldn't really be "Shanks is twice as strong as luffy" but rather "Shanks is at the very least twice as strong as luffy". It makes sense in the context of the story too, luffy by the end of part 1 was incomparably stronger than he was at the beginning. Luffy will likely go through something like that as he moves through the new world.

 

[Schabrak]

Do you wanna know why it was half? Because it was the damn middle of the journey, the middle of the Grandline, it's like a progress bar in a game. Maybe. :P

Anyway it was about haki, not strength, so not saying much about the power level.

 

[kkck]

Well, if we do get into specifics regarding the haki matter there then I would argue the situation is even grimmer for luffy. Conqueror's haki is overall about strength of will more than actual strength. So the specific scenario we are discussing right now would be that shanks at the moment has willpower or whatnot AT LEAST twice as greater than luffy. Now, luffy having less than half the fighting power of shanks right now is overall a coherent development however once we get into the very specific will thing at least IMO things get scarier. Oda basically told us that luffy's overall willpower is at the most half as strong as shanks own. Luffy as a character has changed hearts, lives and nations through willpower and guts alone and right then the manga told us shanks is at least twice as awesome as luffy in that department. What the hell kind of man is shanks? Luffy should be the epitome of strength of will and whatnot considering what we have seen and yet the between the two there is a 100% difference. Of course shanks has more experience in the haki thing but still....

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

First off a bit of information before the thread goes into a wrong direction due to misinformation

D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo

O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.

Taking this piece of information into consideration, your conclusion of Shanks having twice strength or willpower or whatever is just simply wrong. Luffy on FI was just strong enough (however you want to define strength in this context) to make 50.000 people faint because those were the only ones so weak that you could not even consider them fodder. Oda pretty much introduced a new level of fighters and that´s a level even under fodder. Now, Shanks making all 100.000 faint does not equate to him being twice as strong as Luffy, it just means that the gap between his strength and all 100.000 was big enough for them to be effected by CoC. How much Luffy has to grow to reach that strength is not given at all.

 

[David Rose]

I wanted to write an initial answer to kkck yesterday, but the site went down for a short time and i to bed. I will rather catch on with the current posts now. :P

Taking this piece of information into consideration, your conclusion of Shanks having twice strength or willpower or whatever is just simply wrong. Luffy on FI was just strong enough (however you want to define strength in this context) to make 50.000 people faint because those were the only ones so weak that you could not even consider them fodder. Oda pretty much introduced a new level of fighters and that´s a level even under fodder. Now, Shanks making all 100.000 faint does not equate to him being twice as strong as Luffy, it just means that the gap between his strength and all 100.000 was big enough for them to be effected by CoC. How much Luffy has to grow to reach that strength is not given at all.

Even if it's nitpicking, since it's assumption alltogether and we can only do with the english translation, you conclusion is not entirely right. It's nice to see the complete Quote though.

In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000.

This is a single statement regarding the question, saying the Haki of Shanks and Rayleigh may (he's not even putting a sole number on it) be able to. This means that there is indeed some kind of cap to the actual number of people you can knock out, which is limited by the sole strength of your Haki.

Oda then goes on about how the process of overpowering someone works in detail. This, in short, only says that despite the strenght of your Haki you also have to have a vast difference in power to succeed.
If you would raise the individual power of every fighter from the 100.000, the number of people Luffy would've knocked out would go down to 0 rather fast, while Shanks would still be able to keep his record entirely. This doesn't mean he is that much stronger. It rather lays in the defined concept of how Haki works, that Shanks as one of the most powerful individual can pull off a sufficient power gap on much more individual people.

I guess we now have to all learn japanese and then discuss on. :P I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just one of those matters of interpretation where you can sport a whole different opinion, easily. All in all we'll never really know at all. :P

Do you wanna know why it was half? Because it was the damn middle of the journey, the middle of the Grandline, it's like a progress bar in a game. Maybe. :P

Anyway it was about haki, not strength, so not saying much about the power level.

This is not that a bold statement at all, given one of the longer shots in One Piece is Luffys "hunt" for Shanks, to fullfill the promise. So he's about half way through and achieved half of the desired power. Again, it fits in a rather simple but cunning way.

According to Rayleigh, while this type of Haki cannot be attained through training, it can be improved through training, as it grows as the user's spirit grows.

In the translation on Mangareader it also says: It is the user's very spirit manifest. It can only be strengthened by the individual's person growth.
This also means it's not a sole expression of willpower, but also a complete package out of cunning, experience emotions and so on. Given Luffy was more of a boy and now is a young man it's not that surprising that he's inferior to Shanks in that matter who is both, older and stronger. He also has much longer journey behind him.

 

[vagabond87]

David Rose - I would go along with what MiyamotoMusashi posted, saying that we all should learn japanese and then discuss is pointless as we have really good translators around internet. Beside using Mangareaders translation to prove something is not best option to use. MiyamotoMushashi with one quote proven your statement/theory to be far from accurate. Give it up

 

[kkck]

First off a bit of information before the thread goes into a wrong direction due to misinformation

D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo

O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.

Taking this piece of information into consideration, your conclusion of Shanks having twice strength or willpower or whatever is just simply wrong. Luffy on FI was just strong enough (however you want to define strength in this context) to make 50.000 people faint because those were the only ones so weak that you could not even consider them fodder. Oda pretty much introduced a new level of fighters and that´s a level even under fodder. Now, Shanks making all 100.000 faint does not equate to him being twice as strong as Luffy, it just means that the gap between his strength and all 100.000 was big enough for them to be effected by CoC. How much Luffy has to grow to reach that strength is not given at all.

I did by no means conclude shanks was twice as strong as luffy. The point I tried to make was that in that scenario luffy's highest capacity was 50000 people however the scenario did not provide enough information to see shank's full capacity. My point was that the manga has suggested shanks is at minimum at twice the capacity of luffy in regards to the whole haki thing with the actual top of his powers being massively unclear. It's plausible shanks would actually only be able to do those 100000 people however it is just as plausible that he could do 200000 or 10000000000 under similar circumstances. My entire point was that oda left enough room there for shanks to still be massively stronger than luffy, not just twice as strong.

 

[vagabond87]

So I think that current small(maybe it will turn out to be pretty big) fight with Admiral that Law just started in last chapter will help us to see how Luffy(who I think is bit stronger than Law) would fair in fight with Admiral.
Maybe we will also get to see some exchange between Doflamingo and Law so it will be fuel for further discussion when it comes to how Luffy compares to Doflamingo.
If Law can stand his ground to Admiral and be able to escape him then in my opinion would make Zoro be capable of doing as good as Law in same situation.

 

[Sproumfch]

So I think that current small(maybe it will turn out to be pretty big) fight with Admiral that Law just started in last chapter will help us to see how Luffy(who I think is bit stronger than Law) would fair in fight with Admiral.
Maybe we will also get to see some exchange between Doflamingo and Law so it will be fuel for further discussion when it comes to how Luffy compares to Doflamingo.
If Law can stand his ground to Admiral and be able to escape him then in my opinion would make Zoro be capable of doing as good as Law in same situation.

Big +1 !

In my mind Zoro is Law level and so Luffy is quite above.

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

I did by no means conclude shanks was twice as strong as luffy. The point I tried to make was that in that scenario luffy's highest capacity was 50000 people however the scenario did not provide enough information to see shank's full capacity. My point was that the manga has suggested shanks is at minimum at twice the capacity of luffy in regards to the whole haki thing with the actual top of his powers being massively unclear. It's plausible shanks would actually only be able to do those 100000 people however it is just as plausible that he could do 200000 or 10000000000 under similar circumstances. My entire point was that oda left enough room there for shanks to still be massively stronger than luffy, not just twice as strong.

See, that´s why i said you did not understand it correctly and quoted your post. Let´s use an analogy because it´s a lot easier to explain it that way.
For opponents to be effected by Haoushoku Haki, there has to be a certain gap between the one who uses it and the opponents.
Let´s just say Luffy has a strength of 100 (completely random number, does not really have a meaning) and there has to be at least a difference of 50 for opponents to faint, meaning that the 50000 fishmen who fainted were as strong as 50 at best. This also entails that Luffy´s capacity was not 50.000 in general, it just means that the other 50.000 were stronger than 50 and thus not effected by CoC.
Here comes the most important factor. Since we don´t actually know how strong the other 50.000 fishmen were, we can not draw a conclusion at all from the fact that Shanks could make all 100.000 faint. As far as we know, the rest of the fishmen could have a strength of 51-60, so Shanks could also have only a strength of 110, meaning Shanks could easily be massively stronger than Luffy but also only by a small margin.
The actual number of people fainting is secondary which was basically my point.

 

[Sproumfch]

Another line is not exploited :
Imagine Luffy would have been ultra pissed off (Hodi killing the King or something like that), would he have knocked-down all the 100 000 fighters?

 

[DutchPhoenix]

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_71
O: It's these three. Their specialty haki color is in the parentheses.


Luffy (Haoshoku Haki), Conqueror's Haki
Zoro (Busoshoku Haki), Color of Arms Haki
Sanji (Kenbunshoku Haki) Color of Observation Haki

I would love to see some pwnage haki skills from sanji and zoro

 

[MBVC]

Hmm, so Robin doesn't know how to use one but she knows about their existences, I'm quite disappointed. It's understandable that Sanji is good at COO, well at least he has to run far far away from those freaking beautiful ladies for sure. Zoro needs COA to fight against logica users and other great swordsmen who know how to use COA.

 

[Ninomiya]

Big +1 !

In my mind Zoro is Law level and so Luffy is quite above.

I wouldn't say Zoro is Law level, and I wouldn't say Luffy is quite above Law honestly.
The gap between them all is really, really small I think.

 

[TheLuffySmile]

Gah I would love to see Luffy and Zoro battle it out, rly hard to say who would win honestly, though we haven't seen much from either, but still a hell of a lot more from Luffy than Zoro, I WANNA SEE ZORO FCK SOME SHIT UP SOON ODA!

 

[Der Namenlose]

Re: One Piece 719 Discussion/ 720 Predictions

Luffy would have lost if it wasn't for the [mental]support of his crew mates on EL. Luffy and Zoro have always been presented of very similar in strength, how you conclude that Luffy almost reached Mihawk's power[the one rivaling Shanks], with Zoro still being far below him is ungraspable.

Sorry, but I didn't conclude that at all, which means the bolded passage in your comment is a very strange straw man argument. What I said is that The Dark King -- i.e., Rayleigh, not Luffy -- may be just as strong as Mihawk. Although we can't know that for sure, it's certainly a possibility, and it's what I said it was.

As for Zoro being just as strong as Luffy, I'm sorry to say that I don't believe in it, nor have I any reason to do so. Although Luffy defeated Lucci with the determination he gained from his friends, he was still fighting with him on almost equal grounds, even though -- as I myself conceded -- Lucci probably had a slight advantage. Even though Zoro was not so damaged in his fight with Kaku as Luffy was while fighting Lucci, it was still a struggle for him to win, in a way more similar to Sanji's own battle against Jabura than to Luffy's combat against Lucci. The difference between Lucci and Kaku/Jabura is not so small as you seem to believe, and, although saying he had almost half of Luffy's strength may have been an exaggeration on my part, he is in no way in the same level as the captain, been much closer to Sanji. Perhaps he has something close to 60% or 70% of Luffy's overall capacity, perhaps even 80% -- who knows? What is certain, however, is that he is not as strong as his captain.

The evidence I presented is one of the few quantifiable criteria of comparison exhibited in the manga about how Luffy, Zoro and Sanji stand in relation to each other when it comes to physical strength -- i.e., the doriki of enemies who fought with them almost on the same level. If you find that ungraspable, I would like to know which kind of evidence you would have to consistently stand against my view. The chapter you posted was a mostly comical quarrel with few, if any serious implications, which, to make things even worse, does not even have a satisfactory conclusion. Since they didn't even had any serious intent for victory in that fight, I don't see how it would be even close to a consistent source of comparison.