Discussion Criticism Thread

[Undina]

So you're not saying teenagers are stupid, you're just saying teenagers are stupid. And sure, different cultures have different kinds of storytelling, but there are universal ruley that any narrative needs to follow.

While King and Diane could interact with their surroundings, this is clearly a simulation based on Dolor and Gloxinia's memories. They weren't actually immersed into the events as evidenced by the fact that they are laying comatose on the ground right now and clearly can't alter history, because if they could, whatever horrible things happened to Dolor and Gloxinia should they should have been able to undo rather easily.

See above.

I'm saying humans are diverse and the subject of development through experience(including the emotional and cultural kind). If you insist with this "teenagers are stupid" statement it's cause that is your own opinion, not mine. I'm intelligent enough to both acknowledge and embrace diversity as well as not insult myself, given that even I was once a teenager as well as many people I used to or still respect and admire . It's a no brainer.
It being a mere "simulation" is still a speculation, and whether your perspective or my opinion (of this being an act of temporal and metaphysical transcendence) turns out to be true, mine is still more closely related to the "supernatural" and "fantasy" domains admitted for this story, rather than something pertaining more to the real, tangible world or futuristic sci-fi. The characters are casting spells activated by magic words even when they're connecting separate dimensions or invading someone's mind, not using high end gadgets, intricate psychology, complex bio-chemical serums or mere "brain-waves". If you still want to pursue this contradiction, I suggest you 1st double-check with the obviously old-school Nakaba who publicly admitted to basing his work on standard folklore rather than more contemporary beliefs and teachings where the esoteric meets the empiric that have lead to works of fiction like Assassin's Creed,The Matrix and Inception. Ask him if it's a mere simulation or closer to an "out-of-body" experience or simply wait for the completion of the arc to cast strong judgement.
Immersion still occurs, whether it is a simulation or supernatural transcendence. We're discussing the abstract aspect only involving the psyche or soul. And for all the canon evidence we have, King is in Gloxinia's body and is experiencing the physical difference to his predecessor, while Diane is literally getting the chance to see how it feels to be a (giant) man.
And the story-telling process here is so far completely normal and rule abiding since it uses this metaphysical phenomenon for introducing King and Diane to the past arc and more personal development by offering a "story within a story".

?
FMA, Naruto (which I don't like but anyway), SnK, HxH, all of these are shonen that display complexity and mature content, and which did/do fine with the selling part of the product.
The main problem I, at least, have against Taizai is that it never develops its good possibilities and always go the easy route. Just pointing out a few exemples, there's way too many for my taste :
1) Nabaka had the possibility to give an authentic development to Meliodas about Liz's death. We could have seen him actually evolve or rather, become more mature. I'm not saying to make him like Guts of course, but there's an infinite continuum between that and what we have in Taizai, which is lame. The impact of Liz's death ? Pointless, because she's all but a reincarnation. How can we feel sadness about that if we know for a fact she'll come back anyway ? This makes the love story freaking lame and superficial.
2) Same thing about Meliodas' death. We could have seen the other characters develop without him, specially Ban, but no. He's damned to come back again and again, so we don't even bother about his death and its potential impact on the story anymore.
Actually, nobody ever freaking dies in this manga, except fodders. It makes everything irrelevant, specially when it comes to the sacrificial aspect that could have actually made this manga really good by adding mature content : Hawk sacrifices himself to save others ? who cares anymore, he just came back. Matrona saving Diane ? Same story.
3) Freaking no legitimacy in the actions of the important characters. I mean, the goal of the TC ? "Blabla, kill people, conquer Britannia because we lost the war and losin' ain't cool specially because Meliodas betrayed us". Uh oh. And appart from that, none of the good guys seem to have any decent reason to do something. Meliodas only wanna have some legs party with Elisabeth, same between King and Diane. All they do is always to react : first arc because they took Elisabeth, now because the TC want revenge, later because something will happen with the goddesses. It's quiet lame.

I'm partly disinclined to take your reply seriously given that you're bringing up arguments which crumble with
1)An irrelevant mention of a seinen main character(Guts) for a comparison with a shounen main, but even if you brought up one of the heroes of the aforementioned shounens, the comparison would've failed, pretty much due to a similar mathematical situation, also you're personally unable to look at the bigger picture regarding the relationship between Meliodas and Elizabeth(of whom we have no fail-proof evidence as to how she returns, but it doesn't look like "reincarnation" at all). After the Vaizel Helbram situation people should've learnt to not take minor recurring characters' observations at face value, especially when their observation is devalued by the same scene failure to properly recognise the nature of their observation's subject's powers. The impact of the repeated loss of his lover is very much there, but who knows for what personal reasons you don't see it?!
2) Uhhh, how many teenage directed adventurous supernatural comedies have killed their protagonists(the main attention and identification target for the reader) then gone on without them?! Especially when the ongoing, since the dawn of time, archetype of the young hero facing death and overcoming it, as the coming of age trial, is still the closest to most humans' hearts?! Also, you expect the mascot to stay dead?! LMAO! The mentor before offering actual lessons?! Once you've published your story, that does keep their core hero dead(stories started from "beyond the grave" or with the death of the main and are dark comedies don't count), and it's enormously popular, not to mention highly acclaimed by most academics and cultural echelons striving for the support and development of a healthy psyche in young generations, do direct me to it to see for myself if you've managed the "reinvention of the wheel". I'll honestly buy a copy for myself and each of my 2 kids(for when they're 14+ of age).
3) Double-check with real life history for "legitimacy" in predatory offensive. Also for how much of a realistic incentive for further frustration with the enemy such aggressors experience when they lose their admitted "greatest asset" to the other camp. You say the romance is superficial, I say your reading of this story is half-hearted and equally superficial, the twist Nakaba gave to his Meliodas and Elizabeth take on Romeo and Juliet has finally made me stomach the trope in 15 years. By merely having his characters acknowledging there's more to the world than their relationship and that as heirs or high ranking representatives of their clans, they're responsible with searching for the means of a permanent cease-fire, not merely given a pass for melodramatic actions to prove a point about their love.
I do have to thank you for pointing out yourself quite a mature issue touched by Nakaba: how the sanest, wisest option in life, when it comes to conflict, is to react rather than initiate aggression, even when you're, not so secretly, preparing a definitive countermeasure to the enemy's plans.

 

[Rescorlian]

I'm partly disinclined to take your reply seriously given that you're bringing up arguments which crumble with
1)An irrelevant mention of a seinen main character(Guts) for a comparison with a shounen main, but even if you brought up one of the heroes of the aforementioned shounens, the comparison would've failed, pretty much due to a similar mathematical situation, also you're personally unable to look at the bigger picture regarding the relationship between Meliodas and Elizabeth(of whom we have no fail-proof evidence as to how she returns, but it doesn't look like "reincarnation" at all). After the Vaizel Helbram situation people should've learnt to not take minor recurring characters' observations at face value, especially when their observation is devalued by the same scene failure to properly recognise the nature of their observation's subject's powers. The impact of the repeated loss of his lover is very much there, but who knows for what personal reasons you don't see it?!
2) Uhhh, how many teenage directed adventurous supernatural comedies have killed their protagonists(the main attention and identification target for the reader) then gone on without them?! Especially when the ongoing, since the dawn of time, archetype of the young hero facing death and overcoming it, as the coming of age trial, is still the closest to most humans' hearts?! Also, you expect the mascot to stay dead?! LMAO! The mentor before offering actual lessons?! Once you've published your story, that does keep their core hero dead(stories started from "beyond the grave" or with the death of the main and are dark comedies don't count), and it's enormously popular, not to mention highly acclaimed by most academics and cultural echelons striving for the support and development of a healthy psyche in young generations, do direct me to it to see for myself if you've managed the "reinvention of the wheel". I'll honestly buy a copy for myself and each of my 2 kids(for when they're 14+ of age).
3) Double-check with real life history for "legitimacy" in predatory offensive. Also for how much of a realistic incentive for further frustration with the enemy such aggressors experience when they lose their admitted "greatest asset" to the other camp. You say the romance is superficial, I say your reading of this story is half-hearted and equally superficial, the twist Nakaba gave to his Meliodas and Elizabeth take on Romeo and Juliet has finally made me stomach the trope in 15 years. By merely having his characters acknowledging there's more to the world than their relationship and that as heirs or high ranking representatives of their clans, they're responsible with searching for the means of a permanent cease-fire, not merely given a pass for melodramatic actions to prove a point about their love.
I do have to thank you for pointing out yourself quite a mature issue touched by Nakaba: how the sanest, wisest option in life, when it comes to conflict, is to react rather than initiate aggression, even when you're, not so secretly, preparing a definitive countermeasure to the enemy's plans.

Uh oh. There are many childish things I won't reply to, and you don't seem to want to understand what I tried to point out. Well, that doesn't surprise me coming from someone who still thinks "Do better and publish your own story" is a relevant argument, but anyway. I'm sure we can find a clear disagreement on something : you think the relationship between Meliodas and Elisabeth is mature and complex, I don't. That pretty much sums the all entire story up.

 

[LivewireToriko]

I'm saying humans are diverse and the subject of development through experience(including the emotional and cultural kind). If you insist with this "teenagers are stupid" statement it's cause that is your own opinion, not mine. I'm intelligent enough to both acknowledge and embrace diversity as well as not insult myself, given that even I was once a teenager as well as many people I used to or still respect and admire . It's a no brainer.
It being a mere "simulation" is still a speculation, and whether your perspective or my opinion (of this being an act of temporal and metaphysical transcendence) turns out to be true, mine is still more closely related to the "supernatural" and "fantasy" domains admitted for this story, rather than something pertaining more to the real, tangible world or futuristic sci-fi. The characters are casting spells activated by magic words even when they're connecting separate dimensions or invading someone's mind, not using high end gadgets, intricate psychology, complex bio-chemical serums or mere "brain-waves". If you still want to pursue this contradiction, I suggest you 1st double-check with the obviously old-school Nakaba who publicly admitted to basing his work on standard folklore rather than more contemporary beliefs and teachings where the esoteric meets the empiric that have lead to works of fiction like Assassin's Creed,The Matrix and Inception. Ask him if it's a mere simulation or closer to an "out-of-body" experience or simply wait for the completion of the arc to cast strong judgement.
Immersion still occurs, whether it is a simulation or supernatural transcendence. We're discussing the abstract aspect only involving the psyche or soul. And for all the canon evidence we have, King is in Gloxinia's body and is experiencing the physical difference to his predecessor, while Diane is literally getting the chance to see how it feels to be a (giant) man.
And the story-telling process here is so far completely normal and rule abiding since it uses this metaphysical phenomenon for introducing King and Diane to the past arc and more personal development by offering a "story within a story".

I'm partly disinclined to take your reply seriously given that you're bringing up arguments which crumble with
1)An irrelevant mention of a seinen main character(Guts) for a comparison with a shounen main, but even if you brought up one of the heroes of the aforementioned shounens, the comparison would've failed, pretty much due to a similar mathematical situation, also you're personally unable to look at the bigger picture regarding the relationship between Meliodas and Elizabeth(of whom we have no fail-proof evidence as to how she returns, but it doesn't look like "reincarnation" at all). After the Vaizel Helbram situation people should've learnt to not take minor recurring characters' observations at face value, especially when their observation is devalued by the same scene failure to properly recognise the nature of their observation's subject's powers. The impact of the repeated loss of his lover is very much there, but who knows for what personal reasons you don't see it?!
2) Uhhh, how many teenage directed adventurous supernatural comedies have killed their protagonists(the main attention and identification target for the reader) then gone on without them?! Especially when the ongoing, since the dawn of time, archetype of the young hero facing death and overcoming it, as the coming of age trial, is still the closest to most humans' hearts?! Also, you expect the mascot to stay dead?! LMAO! The mentor before offering actual lessons?! Once you've published your story, that does keep their core hero dead(stories started from "beyond the grave" or with the death of the main and are dark comedies don't count), and it's enormously popular, not to mention highly acclaimed by most academics and cultural echelons striving for the support and development of a healthy psyche in young generations, do direct me to it to see for myself if you've managed the "reinvention of the wheel". I'll honestly buy a copy for myself and each of my 2 kids(for when they're 14+ of age).
3) Double-check with real life history for "legitimacy" in predatory offensive. Also for how much of a realistic incentive for further frustration with the enemy such aggressors experience when they lose their admitted "greatest asset" to the other camp. You say the romance is superficial, I say your reading of this story is half-hearted and equally superficial, the twist Nakaba gave to his Meliodas and Elizabeth take on Romeo and Juliet has finally made me stomach the trope in 15 years. By merely having his characters acknowledging there's more to the world than their relationship and that as heirs or high ranking representatives of their clans, they're responsible with searching for the means of a permanent cease-fire, not merely given a pass for melodramatic actions to prove a point about their love.
I do have to thank you for pointing out yourself quite a mature issue touched by Nakaba: how the sanest, wisest option in life, when it comes to conflict, is to react rather than initiate aggression, even when you're, not so secretly, preparing a definitive countermeasure to the enemy's plans.

Wow.

Everyone's going to have different opinions, some people are going to dislike things that you like or give constructive criticism in places you disagree with.

But that whole speech was some painfully cringey stuff right there.

1. From the way you desperately tried to establish yourself as the "adult" in the room, and his intellectual superior.

2. To the way you tried to paint this manga as some sort of masterpiece.

This is a generic shonen battle manga. With generic themes, and generic romance.

If you like that, that's fine. If he's criticizing it because he thinks it could be better that's fine too.

"Meliodas and Elizabeth's romance is extremely well written. We have several instances of referral from which we can draw from to deduce that the wear of his psyche due to the repeated loss of his lover has resulted in excruciating pain for Meliodas. When we also add in the temporal attribute from which he has lost her many times for thousands of years it becomes a heart wrenching journey of redemption for Meliodas as he seeks to protect Elizabeth from harm and finally grasp that which he has never been able to obtain, true happiness at his lovers side. It is also rejuvenating to observe as they overcome these trials and tribulations as they desperately wish to be with one another, but are also forced to bare witness to and observe the cruelty of their own clans and try to change them from the outside. By acknowledging things happening outside of their romance it shows a sense of maturity and intelligence very uncommon in a majority of shonen manga. All of this put together produces one of the best romantic relationships I have ever seen in a shonen manga for the last 15 years".

You are trying way too hard.

I think even Nakaba would cringe if he read that.

 

[Gallon]

I'm hoping this argument doesn't escalate to the generic "boohoo, my opinion is better than yours, you suck, yadda yadda" - it's okay for now, but please keep it civil.

 

[overlordpringerx]

I can't believe this. Nakaba keeps retconning major elements in the series just to make Meliodas stronger. He wrote Meliodas to be like Saitama, who always wins and is the most OP character in his universe. However Saitama's writing is pretty self aware and clever, while Meliodas is neither of those. A character that wins even when he loses just makes the rest of the cast feel absolutely pointless. The fact that literally everyone loves him makes it even more irritating because his inner conflict comes off as whining that his life isn't 100% perfect. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Ash Ketchum is a way better protagonist than Meliodas. Meliodas is literally the only character were the plot doesn't simply revolve around him, but he straight up is the plot in character-form.

 

[LaserBeam]

I can't believe this. Nakaba keeps retconning major elements in the series just to make Meliodas stronger. He wrote Meliodas to be like Saitama, who always wins and is the most OP character in his universe. However Saitama's writing is pretty self aware and clever, while Meliodas is neither of those. A character that wins even when he loses just makes the rest of the cast feel absolutely pointless. The fact that literally everyone loves him makes it even more irritating because his inner conflict comes off as whining that his life isn't 100% perfect. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Ash Ketchum is a way better protagonist than Meliodas. Meliodas is literally the only character were the plot doesn't simply revolve around him, but he straight up is the plot in character-form.

You started good i lost you where you said that saitama is clever but meliodas is idiot in comparison to saitama.
Care to explain to me why you think a smart leader who actually uses his brain in fights is dumber than saitama?

 

[overlordpringerx]

You started good i lost you where you said that saitama is clever but meliodas is idiot in comparison to saitama.
Care to explain to me why you think a smart leader who actually uses his brain in fights is dumber than saitama?

You misunderstood what I said. I didn't say Saitama was a clever character. I said his WRITING is clever. Huge difference. Saitama himself is quite dense at times.
Here's the difference between Meliodas and Saitama. ONE knew how to handle OP main characters in a way that made them feel relatable. Saitama became a hero because his life used to be terribly boring, and he looked for the thrill of heroics. However he became too strong, meaning even that ended up boring him. And unlike Meliodas, who is beloved by everyone Saitama only gets recognition from some of his closer pals, like genos and mumen rider, and from boros. Meliodas on the other hand gets everything. Recognition from friends and enemies alike, being the strongest character ever in the universe, it's never acknowledged that he messed up on several occasions... Nothing about him is relatable. Also, Saitama being OP works because it's both a deconstruction as well as a running gag throughout. Hell, the show is called one punch man. With Meliodas it doesn't because there is supposed to be seriousness and tension, but it's ruined if you know that he could just wipe the floor with everyone. Another set of op protagonists that is written way better than Meliodas is Taichi/Zeromaru from Digimon V-Tamer. These guys are only really strong as a team, while being just above average on their own. Taichi is a brilliant strategist, but at the end of the day just a human child. Zeromaru is an above average Digimon when it comes to strength, but he's also pretty dumb, and he evolves rather slowly.

 

[Isaiah Thomas]

I don't know to what extent he can power up but he is definitely able to do it. Diane did when she was in his body before fighting Zeldris.

Baring there’s no typo with Diane power level this is kinda depressing because Nakaba sacrifice tension for hype.

It started with Escanor first official appearance. Having him toy with Galán was fine because we seen all he could do but once Merascylla got it as well it started us down this current rabbit hole. Right now as a fan you kinda want the Goddess seal to be completely gone & all the Demons run while at full power & start the real Holy War for the Goddess could come.

 

[danh]

The problem I have had with this series recently is that I don't /can't feel any intense feeling/threatens anymore. Just read and read and wait for the main character's side defeat the final boss....oh.... I forgot that we're in the final arc already.

 

[Demonspeed]

Baring there’s no typo with Diane power level this is kinda depressing because Nakaba sacrifice tension for hype.

It started with Escanor first official appearance. Having him toy with Galán was fine because we seen all he could do but once Merascylla got it as well it started us down this current rabbit hole. Right now as a fan you kinda want the Goddess seal to be completely gone & all the Demons run while at full power & start the real Holy War for the Goddess could come.

Since the first saga Nakaba has been doing that.With Hunter Fest Ban could have beaten Hendrickson alone. And none of the Sins with a ST had used their Release. To this day we still don't know what is Gideon's ability.

 

[Isaiah Thomas]

Since the first saga Nakaba has been doing that.With Hunter Fest Ban could have beaten Hendrickson alone. And none of the Sins with a ST had used their Release. To this day we still don't know what is Gideon's ability.

I disagree with what you’re talking bout because in fact Nakaba doing the opposite. Now that we know all of the things the sins could do before their power up. Nakaba gave us fake tension against Guila, Gilthunder, Helbram, Dreyfus & Hendrickson & even had people die unnecessarily for it because the sins could’ve one shotted Hendrickson whenever.

 

[overlordpringerx]

FUCK YOU, NAKABA!

 

[kkck]

FUCK YOU, NAKABA!

eh, what?

 

[overlordpringerx]

eh, what?

Nah, forget it. I had misunderstood something

 

[Escanorzoldyck]

FUCK YOU, NAKABA!

Can't see the pic
.

 

[Piety]

Can't see the pic
.

It's only Ban getting rekt. Nothing special/new to see

 

[Marco Polo]

Wow.



"Meliodas and Elizabeth's romance is extremely well written. We have several instances of referral from which we can draw from to deduce that the wear of his psyche due to the repeated loss of his lover has resulted in excruciating pain for Meliodas. When we also add in the temporal attribute from which he has lost her many times for thousands of years it becomes a heart wrenching journey of redemption for Meliodas as he seeks to protect Elizabeth from harm and finally grasp that which he has never been able to obtain, true happiness at his lovers side. It is also rejuvenating to observe as they overcome these trials and tribulations as they desperately wish to be with one another, but are also forced to bare witness to and observe the cruelty of their own clans and try to change them from the outside. By acknowledging things happening outside of their romance it shows a sense of maturity and intelligence very uncommon in a majority of shonen manga. All of this put together produces one of the best romantic relationships I have ever seen in a shonen manga for the last 15 years".

You are trying way too hard.

I think even Nakaba would cringe if he read that.

"To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Nanatsu no Taizai"

OT, here's some criticisms of the past few months of chapters:

1. Everything Ban-related that's happened since he tried to kill Meliodas, except for when he 2v1'd Galan and Scylla: his character is very mopey emo boy and it's kind of painful to read. In this "arc" since Meliodas told everyone what he was really after, he's gone from being mopey about Elaine potentially dying (which she probably won't), to being mopey for being angry at his best buddy. The bits where he hasn't been written in have been his best bits.

2. Elaine magically sprouting full-blown wings in an instant: I don't really need to say much about this, other than it's a massive asspull

3. The limit of the "three days" curse on Elizabeth and the subsequent rushing of character development and power-ups that may come with it: I'll hold back on this for now since Nakaba may write around it later

 

[kkck]

I don't see how Elaine growing wings or Elizabeth's curse giving her 3 days qualifies as asspull. It doesn't conflict with any stablished lore nor were there rules stablished about it to begin with. The only weird bit about elaine is that her power grew to about 20k while most fairies we have seen with wings did not even vaguely approach that, including gerhard, a fairy that was a part of stigma. However it is worth noting that elaine had about as much power as gerhard even without wings meaning there was some precedent for her growing very strong once her wings grew, which we knew for a fact would make her stronger.