Discussion Cross Guild discussion

[Nie Li]

To people of the OP yes. As for Mihawk role in the story ended the moment he chose to become Zoro mentor. Just like Shanks I don't think the SHs will see Mihawk again.

That makes no sense. Oda has to hype BB to the readers. There's no point to hype a Yonkou for the characters in the story: he's already one of the 4 greatest pirates alive just by being a Yonkou, and "defeating another Yonkou" is not going to do anything for his status. Of course a Yonkou can take down another Yonkou, there's no extra hype in that.

And regarding Mihawk and Shanks... ha.

 

[ShadowHeart]

That makes no sense. Oda has to hype BB to the readers. There's no point to hype a Yonkou for the characters in the story: he's already one of the 4 greatest pirates alive just by being a Yonkou, and "defeating another Yonkou" is not going to do anything for his status. Of course a Yonkou can take down another Yonkou, there's no extra hype in that.

And regarding Mihawk and Shanks... ha.

That's why he's gonna take down both Shanks and Buggy at the same time.

 

[Fox666]

Isn't weird to have Crocodile being highlighted like this?

I think all Emperors got several people on Crocodile level, what makes him special?

 

[weixiaobao]

In Dressrosa, Jean Ango the bounty hunter revealed that there are a ton of Impel Down level 6 prisoners still around and that he knew where they are. These of course are not affiliate with Black Beard. Crocodile and Jimbei are 2 members of such group. I think we may see a few more and likely they may join Buggy since Black Beard already rejected them.

 

[Demonspeed]

Isn't weird to have Crocodile being highlighted like this?

I think all Emperors got several people on Crocodile level, what makes him special?

He was a main villain once .

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

The Cross Guild is not a crew but a pirate guild which means that any member can get access to the guild resources and rewards in exchange for guild services, however any member should be able to keep most of his independence unlike pirates joining a normal crew.

This is a great deal for pirates with bounties as they get rewards for beating the Marines chasing them as long as they bring their heads to the to Cross Guild HQ. Crocodile and Mihawk which are likely hunted by famous Marines can get large cash rewards instead of nothing, and can probably use the Cross Guild HQ as a resort. As for random pirates, they can get both rewards and safety within the Cross Guild.

The guild members probably have to do some small missions like Buggy’s Delivery joiners used to with military support for countries. After all, there must be something done to maintain the Cross Guild’s cash flows and enable it to reward marine bounties. Unless Buggy manages to buy and sell the Marines to other countries who had a grudge against them or obtain some ransom from WG or families the marine bounties business must be funded by another one.

In any case, rewarding pirates or citizen to beat down Marines is a very clever way to gather strong men supporting your organization than recruiting them and making them sway allegiance to the captain. This looks much more like capitalism and personal interests than communism and collective interests. As a consequence, Buggy’s influence must have skyrocketed and he became a Yonko and a challenging entity to the WG interests.

 

[kkck]

Isn't weird to have Crocodile being highlighted like this?

I think all Emperors got several people on Crocodile level, what makes him special?

As far as combat capacity, it's likely that yonko have a lot of people stronger than him. I suppose he could have grown stronger since less than rookie level luffy handed him his ass. I think the main issue here is hype. Crocodile was still a former shichibukai and perhaps more dangerous than his combat capacity is his intellect. He did manage to create the baroque works organization and operate as he did for a long time..

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Isn't weird to have Crocodile being highlighted like this?

I think all Emperors got several people on Crocodile level, what makes him special?

He was retconned to being more powerful than his showing in Arabasta. I think Oda has essentially made him a Doffy level former warlord now which makes him comparable to YC3+ fighter.

 

[catagon87]

Isn't weird to have Crocodile being highlighted like this?

I think all Emperors got several people on Crocodile level, what makes him special?

To be fair Crocodile was in the same arc where Ace and Smoker simply cancelled each other out. From what we know of Ace now I can honestly say that Arabasta Ace would NOT have stalemated Smoker. He'd of kicked the ever-living fuck outta Smoker. I mean, hell, Blackbeard had to warn his entire crew to not engage Ace as it'd be too dangerous.

Also in Marineford Crocodile handled himself pretty well.

I think it's just that haki wasn't fleshed out yet, and general power-scaling hadn't really been figured out yet.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2022 ---

And, do you believe Mihawk's role in the story after all these years will be to be fodderized by BB or his men?

I can see it now.

Oda: I have to focus on Luffy's goals, the Yonko, and One Piece. For that reason I've decided to outsource Mihawk's story. From this point forward Hawkeye's plot line will be written by Benioff and Weiss.

Two years later we get Hawkeye's story.

Off-screened by Cabaji, who now holds the WSS title. Zoro rematch incoming.

 

[Nie Li]

I can see it now.

Oda: I have to focus on Luffy's goals, the Yonko, and One Piece. For that reason I've decided to outsource Mihawk's story. From this point forward Hawkeye's plot line will be written by Benioff and Weiss.

Two years later we get Hawkeye's story.

Off-screened by Cabaji, who now holds the WSS title. Zoro rematch incoming.

And then the Thousand Sunny burns the iron throne.

 

[kkck]

To be fair Crocodile was in the same arc where Ace and Smoker simply cancelled each other out. From what we know of Ace now I can honestly say that Arabasta Ace would NOT have stalemated Smoker. He'd of kicked the ever-living fuck outta Smoker. I mean, hell, Blackbeard had to warn his entire crew to not engage Ace as it'd be too dangerous.

Also in Marineford Crocodile handled himself pretty well.

I think it's just that haki wasn't fleshed out yet, and general power-scaling hadn't really been figured out yet.

Them cancelling each other out is not THAT unreasonable though. It's ultimately devil fruit shenanigans... And smoke probably has an edge over fire. Ace was pretty strong but he also cancelled out aokiji while severely weakened even though this shouldn't be that much of a fight. Equal to jinbe is a far cry from admiral level... Stronger than jinbe is also not the same as admiral level. I would personally put jinbe a fair bit beneath doflamingo at least.

I think haki wasn't fleshed out by arabasta but to me it's a pretty hard sell that it wasn't fleshed out by marineford. Rayleigh even taught luffy in detail shortly after that. I think the issue is straight up bad storytelling. Oda intentionally misrepresented haki during marineford (most egregiously of course the literal color change induced by hardening being absent) to minimize his need to address it during the arc. Imagine if during the arc the entirety of participants in the war had constantly shifting colors. It would have distracted from the actual arc. IMO should have trusted his readers a bit more.

 

[McNuss]

Ahh, this is nice confirmation again. I told you about a series of movies a few weeks ago.

Here we have the Joker, the Riddler and Azrael is the name, I think.

The fourth installment of the series even starts with a certain character saying: "Can you return this in One Piece?"

Which is not on YouTube, btw. Nigh every other scene is, but this isn't. But I bought the movies^^

It feels really rewarding when you research something and get confirmation on it multiple times later on.

But for some strange reasons, One Piece theorists don't want to research anything, even though Oda pretty much spells out what you have to research. Instead, they base their theories on theories from other people who also spent zero time on research. Your creatitivity is impossible to come nigh Oda's if you don't at least even try to gain parts of his background knowledge.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 11, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 11, 2022 ---

He was retconned to being more powerful than his showing in Arabasta. I think Oda has essentially made him a Doffy level former warlord now which makes him comparable to YC3+ fighter.

I mean...It kind of is a retcon, but very well done:

1. Haki is Willpower. It blooms in battle and it has been implied it can also be lost upon defeat (Don Chinjao). Crocodile lost to Whitebeard in the New World and withdraw to Paradise, same as Moria who lost to Kaido.
2. The cover story of Miss Goldenweek revealed Crocodile's ambition, making way for a restoration of Haki.
3. Sea-stone cuffs are later revealed to essentially be One Piece's equivalent of the hyperbolic time chamber and Bulma's gravity simulation from Dragon Ball, a training cheat for Devil Fruit users.

Ahhh there's a "Man of Steel", too. How could I miss that one, lol.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I mean...It kind of is a retcon, but very well done:

1. Haki is Willpower. It blooms in battle and it has been implied it can also be lost upon defeat (Don Chinjao). Crocodile lost to Whitebeard in the New World and withdraw to Paradise, same as Moria who lost to Kaido.
2. The cover story of Miss Goldenweek revealed Crocodile's ambition, making way for a restoration of Haki.
3. Sea-stone cuffs are later revealed to essentially be One Piece's equivalent of the hyperbolic time chamber and Bulma's gravity simulation from Dragon Ball, a training cheat for Devil Fruit users.

Ahhh there's a "Man of Steel", too. How could I miss that one, lol.

I think its well done since it didn't disrupt the story. If there was a good time to retcon a character, Marineford was it, which Oda used well to establish a lot of the power level dynamics. Heck it is still the foundation of all the Yonko, YC, Admiral, etc power level convos we have today.

I don't know if haki being weaker after defeat is a major factor in this case. Crocodile was not a man lacking ambition when he was a villain. He was taking over one of the original 20 kingdoms, looking into poneglyphs, and trying to obtain an ancient weapon while leading a large organization, Baroque works. I think Crocodile is the most ambitious villain of the first half of the story. Also losing haki would only explain so much, it doesn't explain poor physical showing. In Crocodile's case, pre retcon he was a falls into the category of overconfident logias who lose quickly once their opponents can hit them.

 

[grey matter]

He was retconned to being more powerful than his showing in Arabasta. I think Oda has essentially made him a Doffy level former warlord now which makes him comparable to YC3+ fighter.

I don't think it's a retcon. Crocodile in Marineford was as strong as he was meant to be. It's more like Oda screwed up in Alabasta, since he had no idea how long the series would go and all.

There is no way someone who loses to pre gears Luffy that didn't know haki, would have become a well respected pirate from New World, who became a Shichibukai.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I don't think it's a retcon. Crocodile in Marineford was as strong as he was meant to be. It's more like Oda screwed up in Alabasta, since he had no idea how long the series would go and all.

There is no way someone who loses to pre gears Luffy that didn't know haki, would have become a well respected pirate from New World, who became a Shichibukai.

Isn't that a retcon? If either the present story or the past story have to be "redone" for there to be consistency between them, then that to me is a retcon by definition. I agree Alabasta would need to be redone for present Crocodile to make sense, which is why I think the character has been retconned. You can maybe extend this out retconning to the title of Shichibukai as a whole since it seems Moria was stronger than what pre time skip feats led us to believe.

 

[Nie Li]

Isn't that a retcon? If either the present story or the past story have to be "redone" for there to be consistency between them, then that to me is a retcon by definition. I agree Alabasta would need to be redone for present Crocodile to make sense, which is why I think the character has been retconned. You can maybe extend this out retconning to the title of Shichibukai as a whole since it seems Moria was stronger than what pre time skip feats led us to believe.

Well, Moria was dismissed in the end by the WG for having become too weak/useless, so I think he's not exactly the same case as Crocodile.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Well, Moria was dismissed in the end by the WG for having become too weak/useless, so I think he's not exactly the same case as Crocodile.

That's true they did say Moria had gotten weaker. I guess I was just surprised to see him so confidently attack a BB a Yonko on his home turf by himself post time skip. But then again that didn't end well for him so other than attitude he wasn't exactly impressive.

 

[Super Sonic]

Like I said before this like a lesser Rocks crew but their leader is a joke. Buggy might be as lucky as Luffy. To be honest it would be awesome if there were more ex shichibukais but I would not be okay with them calling Buggy their leader. They probably banded together to stay safe and also because they can all mutually benefit from each other.

Personally, I think this is awesome that they formed the Cross Guild. It seems like everything is coming together. As many have predicted, the strong are all vying for power their own way. Ex Shichibukais band together. Bb is hunting dfs. The marines got the Science division and even more powerful pacifistas now. The Cross Guild have some exciting members plus some members we don't know yet. I'm sure there will be a lot of familiar faces I wonder what Galdino's reaction was like to meet Crocodile again lol. I'm sure we will see moreof these guys soon because A. They are now a pivotal force and B. The manga don't have that much "room" left to not explain the rest of the plot holes. In other words I hope Oda will be given no choice but to show us more given his time constraints hehehe.

Buggy is not a joke. Doflamingo is more a joke than Buggy will ever be.

 

[grey matter]

Isn't that a retcon? If either the present story or the past story have to be "redone" for there to be consistency between them, then that to me is a retcon by definition. I agree Alabasta would need to be redone for present Crocodile to make sense, which is why I think the character has been retconned. You can maybe extend this out retconning to the title of Shichibukai as a whole since it seems Moria was stronger than what pre time skip feats led us to believe.

I think we have slightly different views about what a retcon is.

Technically, yes it's a retcon. Since Marineford Crocodile is objectively > Alabasta Crocodile.

But, which narratively makes sense? Alabasta or Marineford? Assume both arc didn't happen, a hypothetical. Given that Crocodile was a well respected veteran from New World, where would you place such a character without knowing anything about them? We would certainly have him at a level where he no diff'd pre TS pre gears Luffy?
That is what I am saying. It is merely Oda "correcting" instead of "retconning".

For me, if a character who narratively has no business being that powerful becomes one, it's a retcon. For example, assume Bellamy was in Marineford and suddenly stronger than G2 Luffy. That wouldn't make sense, would it? Not just because of feats, but because there is no narrative support for him being that strong as well.
I would also count some plot related stuff, such as Nika fruit, Sabo shenanigans etc as retcons as well. Because narratively, things don't add up.

Moria is a different scenario though,
He was incredibly strong, being able to excite Kaido in battle (at min YC1 tier in prime). But then he lost all his will (haki = will), stopped taking care of himself and got out of shape.
Moria eventually became weak by NW standards, hence WG wanting to kick him out of Shichibukai. This isn't a retcon at all IMO

 

[Nie Li]

I think we have slightly different views about what a retcon is.

Technically, yes it's a retcon. Since Marineford Crocodile is objectively > Alabasta Crocodile.

But, which narratively makes sense? Alabasta or Marineford? Assume both arc didn't happen, a hypothetical. Given that Crocodile was a well respected veteran from New World, where would you place such a character without knowing anything about them? We would certainly have him at a level where he no diff'd pre TS pre gears Luffy?
That is what I am saying. It is merely Oda "correcting" instead of "retconning".

For me, if a character who narratively has no business being that powerful becomes one, it's a retcon. For example, assume Bellamy was in Marineford and suddenly stronger than G2 Luffy. That wouldn't make sense, would it? Not just because of feats, but because there is no narrative support for him being that strong as well.
I would also count some plot related stuff, such as Nika fruit, Sabo shenanigans etc as retcons as well. Because narratively, things don't add up.

Moria is a different scenario though,
He was incredibly strong, being able to excite Kaido in battle (at min YC1 tier in prime). But then he lost all his will (haki = will), stopped taking care of himself and got out of shape.
Moria eventually became weak by NW standards, hence WG wanting to kick him out of Shichibukai. This isn't a retcon at all IMO

A retcon for the better is still a retcon. Arabasta did happen after all and it wasn't exactly a minor event.

You guys are only arguing semantics now, though, since you agree on what was changed, just not on the term.