Seeing how more and more fights just come to: "who has the more powerful haki", did it kill the funfights we had in the series? To me it kinda feels like the powerlevelversion of OP with haki being supersaiyan. As soon as someone unlocks it, he is on another different level. But wait then we have Advanced haki, or super saiyan 2 as someone would say.
I always was not happy with the inclusion of haki, seeing how it plays out, it gets more and more frustrating.
We dont have beamstruggles, but CoC-clashes. Every topplayer uses Ki-Beams or transformations... i mean a diverse array of haki features. Some may specialise in Ultra Instinct, or... future sight for that matter. Someothers for more destructive CoA, or God of destruction mode.
It doesn't matter where power comes from in One Piece, wether it's Haki, a DF, natural strenght.
Oda isn't even remotely consistent with any visuals on Haki, clearly indicating it should not be overthought.
About aCoC, it's way to early to tell what it even does. No real difference to CoA, just another layer? If anything there can only be a dozen living people capable of this feat so it's not going to blow any scales.
I don't think so, it added more dimension to the fight, It has its uses, but it didn't kill creativity for sure given that we still have DFs, and not just DFs, they have Awakenings, so Haki didn't limit creativity.
There are different techniques to fight with, there's emotion that plays a role in fight, reasoning... character development in the case of Katakuri where he actually allowed Luffy to grow stronger, so it's not limited creativity.
If it wasn't Haki, we'd be saying "well, DFs determine everything, DFs killed creativity".
This is normal in shonen mangas, there's always a core power that is very important.
In Dragonball z, it's ki power level, here, it's Haki, I don't see what the issue is with that.
Of course, One Piece is not HxH where fighting is a lot more diverse and tactical, but One Piece has never been that, and it didn't really change much even after it introduced, fights are pretty much the same. Devil fruit weaknesses are still a thing, creativity is still there.
At the end of the day, fights end because 1 character hits harder than another, that's what it boils down to, Haki doesn't change that, it just makes it more interesting.
Well, haki was necessary with the logia DF's introduction. You need to be able to "touch" them. And ultimately, haki is just willpower. A guy like Luffy will always do better than others since he has the most will to succeed. I don't think it's quite at the level of SS in DB.
Lets face it, without haki, Luffy just could never fight Akainu or Kizaru. So haki was needed.
If you think Super Saiyan killed DB then yes. I however think Super Saiyan and all its similar transformations are what made DB what it is today. I loved it as a kid and love it to this day.
I think haki is similar but honestly much better executed. Haki did not eliminate any of the original abilities that existed. Haki did not remove any of the dynamical interactions between DF powers. Haki also has many types and degrees of control, which has introduced a creativity of its own.
Most of all, haki solved a very important problem for me as a reader - DF powers are not the end all be all. Since all people can have haki (excluding CoC) it meant that non DF users can be strong. It also solved the problem of logias intangibility which would have been dumb if it could only be solved by element advantages. It made some sense with Crocodile (to an extent...was ridiculous to think a little blood on Luffy's hands would work especially if you've ever made sand castles and know how much fluid you need to solidify sand) but there was no way to get around other elements like Fire or Light. These things are by nature never solid and have no way to become solid.
If you think Super Saiyan killed DB then yes. I however think Super Saiyan and all its similar transformations are what made DB what it is today. I loved it as a kid and love it to this day.
I think haki is similar but honestly much better executed. Haki did not eliminate any of the original abilities that existed. Haki did not remove any of the dynamical interactions between DF powers. Haki also has many types and degrees of control, which has introduced a creativity of its own.
Most of all, haki solved a very important problem for me as a reader - DF powers are not the end all be all. Since all people can have haki (excluding CoC) it meant that non DF users can be strong. It also solved the problem of logias intangibility which would have been dumb if it could only be solved by element advantages. It made some sense with Crocodile (to an extent...was ridiculous to think a little blood on Luffy's hands would work especially if you've ever made sand castles and know how much fluid you need to solidify sand) but there was no way to get around other elements like Fire or Light. These things are by nature never solid and have no way to become solid.
Lol, yes SS did make DB what it "is" today. But not everyone who liked the older DB likes what it "is" today!
To the rest though, agreed. To everything you say, Haki answered why Garp and Shanks and Roger were able to compete against all the DF using pirates and marines.
If Roger doesn't have haki, then wouldn't this "creativity" be even worse? How does he go toe to toe with someone like Akainu or other DF users in the marines if he can't touch their bodies? You need haki to make sense of the world Oda created.
Kill? No. Killing something like creativity would take more than haki. Remember that One Piece is an adventure story before it's a fighting story. The fighting takes the front lines often, but it's not suppose to be the focal point. I think if it were the focal point we'd have a much more linear progression through the story like in Fairy Tail / Dragon Ball Z.
We've seen a lot of interesting abilities since Haki's inception and haki hasn't necessarily hindered them. I mean, we have Tama, who doesn't know Haki, single-handedly turning the tide of the overall war by enslaving gifters.
Specifically narrowing the scope to the higher level fighting I would say haki, yes, is pretty boring.
Araki actually had a similar system in place for the first couple parts and ditched it altogether in favor of the stand system, because he felt Hamon (Jojo's haki, whereas stands would be more like Devil Fruits) hindered his ability to innovate within his story especially when it comes to battles.
I think the difference with One Piece and say, Dragon Ball Z, is that in Dragon Ball Z about 90% of the characters became all but useless. Krillin, Tien, Yamcha.. all weak as fuck in Dragon Ball Z. The whole show centered around Goku (and sometimes Vegeta / Gohan) saving the universe while the other "fighters" cheer them on like idiots. Majin Buu doesn't come with a crew of people that give Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien fights to handle on their own. Freeza was Freeza. Goku was too powerful for his whole fleet by the time he arrived on Namek. So the need for reinforcements is just nil in that show. On the other hand with One Piece we have a clear goal (Laugh's Tale and One Piece) with many obstacles that Luffy simply cannot overcome on his own. Will Luffy's fights probably be similar to Goku's? Yes. Can Luffy achieve his dreams on his own? Hell fucking no.
He would still be twiddling his thumb (or drowned) in East Blue without Nami.
He'd be dead as fuck without Zoro (Whiskey Peak when he passed out like an idiot).
They'd all be dead without Chopper healing them up.
They'd all starve without Sanji (as witnessed on their way to Tottoland).
They'd have 100% lost the war in Dressrosa without Usopp. They'd all be toy slaves right now.
Without Brook 1/3 of the crew would have drowned on Fishman Island, and they wouldn't have the Road Poneglyph from Whole Cake Island.
Without Jinbei they'd of certainly perished on WCI, and Luffy would have died in Marineford, probably in Impel Down too (as Jinbei was launching people to the ships and showed up with Whale Sharks).
Without Robin, Luffy would not be able to achieve his dreams. Period.
No Franky? No shipwright. No ship. They'd also lose the majority of their amazing weaponry and navigation gear (like the sub).
In summary I think Haki can take away from some fights but those fights make up a very small part of what makes One Piece innovative.
Fair point. I did like the OG Dragon Ball too so I can understand how someone would be disappointed with the changes that came from DBZ and later DBS.
Although I'd argue the issues with the latter two is not necessarily from the Super transformation but the lack of a mechanism to keep up for non Saiyans, which I feel is what Haki actually provides in OP for non DF users. If people like Krillin could have gotten just as strong, there could still have been lots of variety in the fighting styles etc but alas that's not where Toriyama went with the story.
To the rest though, agreed. To everything you say, Haki answered why Garp and Shanks and Roger were able to compete against all the DF using pirates and marines.
If Roger doesn't have haki, then wouldn't this "creativity" be even worse? How does he go toe to toe with someone like Akainu or other DF users in the marines if he can't touch their bodies? You need haki to make sense of the world Oda created.
Yeah some DF powers are just too broken if one doesn't have haki. In fact I think the biggest mistake Oda made with haki is making CoC genetic especially now that we see ACoC is extremely powerful as an offensive/defensive weapon.
Small objection here, they actually were pretty much useless right after being introduced.
The anime completely bloated up the DB verse but in the Manga they pretty much lost their relevancy power-wise even way before Vegeta/Nappa appeared.
Even with the small characters, the Manga always gave them enough feats to rank them in a very linear fashion, Dragon Ball is very good at that and I also don't understand anyone saying how SSJ ruined Dragon Ball as it pretty much didn't change anything from how it always worked (in the Manga!).
Now Super is a whole other story and imho crap because it doesn't have this perfection of the Battle Shonen format. When it comes to Battle Shonen DB is perfect.
But as you said, One Piece is not a Battle Shonen. Usually.
Wano arc though is the Japan arc and even the boss looks like Shenlong. Getting stronger through shortcuts and in-fight power ups are a common theme throughout the very battle centered arc. Oda certainly let himself get inspired largely by these very common Shonen patterns for this specific arc (and below this are tons of cryptic hints, more than ever before), which also serves as a shortcut in the narrative because end of the day this Luffy has to become Pirate King and not the 40 year old one.
So I can see why people are confused but ultimately aCoC is nothing more than a tool to tell us that we've reached the end.
By the way, afaik current Oda reads Shojo. And he calculates in all this confusion. Things like Zoro vs Sanji are super annoying but it's clear as day that the story itself provokes these never ending discussions all by itself.
But another thing is: We now expect ever topplayer to have haki, dont we? The disappointment in Kid, Law and BM in their fight (even without the conclusion in the spoilers) is: They never bothered to use haki. Which makes this fight fun in my opinion, but in the end we are like: Jeah not on Luffys or Kaidous level, because of the lack of haki. Even Zoro is basically a tier above them thanks to his aCoC or however you will spell it. Cant wait for him to split the skies thou.
I don't think it killed the creativity, but I do believe that Oda had become a bit overreliant on it for growth. However, given Kidd and Law vs. Big Mom and, to a lesser extent, Sanji vs. Queen, I do think he's realized this and is attempting to rectify it. Just much later than we would've preferred.
Fair point. I did like the OG Dragon Ball too so I can understand how someone would be disappointed with the changes that came from DBZ and later DBS.
Although I'd argue the issues with the latter two is not necessarily from the Super transformation but the lack of a mechanism to keep up for non Saiyans, which I feel is what Haki actually provides in OP for non DF users. If people like Krillin could have gotten just as strong, there could still have been lots of variety in the fighting styles etc but alas that's not where Toriyama went with the story.
Yeah some DF powers are just too broken if one doesn't have haki. In fact I think the biggest mistake Oda made with haki is making CoC genetic especially now that we see ACoC is extremely powerful as an offensive/defensive weapon.
But another thing is: We now expect ever topplayer to have haki, dont we? The disappointment in Kid, Law and BM in their fight (even without the conclusion in the spoilers) is: They never bothered to use haki. Which makes this fight fun in my opinion, but in the end we are like: Jeah not on Luffys or Kaidous level, because of the lack of haki. Even Zoro is basically a tier above them thanks to his aCoC or however you will spell it. Cant wait for him to split the skies thou.
I've expected every big player to have it since Amazon Lily where every rando there had regular haki. If they all have it, then every marine of a certain level does.
It's time for the rest of the SH's to have it in some form.
There have been many mentions in the manga saying people with CoC are born with it. Rayleigh also said that everyone has COO and COA, even commoners and that they just needed to train to actually realize it and use it. He said that COC is something you can't train to get, you either have it or you don't, which strongly implies it's genetic.
I've expected every big player to have it since Amazon Lily where every rando there had regular haki. If they all have it, then every marine of a certain level does.
It's time for the rest of the SH's to have it in some form.
Yeah I think Oda has been pretty inconsistent with who should and should not have haki. Based on people we've seen with it, I'd say every SH is strong enough to have haki. But I think Oda chose not to do that to address the very problem this thread is about - CREATIVITY. If each SH had haki and all their fights end up focusing on haki that would feel boring. So for the sake of creativity we got this inconsistency introduced where someone should def have haki but don't just because...
But another thing is: We now expect ever topplayer to have haki, dont we? The disappointment in Kid, Law and BM in their fight (even without the conclusion in the spoilers) is: They never bothered to use haki. Which makes this fight fun in my opinion, but in the end we are like: Jeah not on Luffys or Kaidous level, because of the lack of haki. Even Zoro is basically a tier above them thanks to his aCoC or however you will spell it. Cant wait for him to split the skies thou.
I think you and @thedude are hitting on of the main problems Oda has had with haki - inconsistency in its display. When it was first introduced in Marineford Saga, there was nothing visible about it. We'd need a person in story to say Person A is using haki. This made it so confusing as a reader when watching strong people fight since you're constantly left wondering, are they using haki or not?
Post timeskip, I thought Oda introduced a solution to that problem by making haki visible. Heck he even found a way for us to see the use of COO by seeing in the minds eye of characters (particularly when the use of COO was relevant). However, he has been extremely inconsistent with this during fights. We haven't seen much use of haki in this Kid/Law v Big Mom fight where they should be using it with pretty much every attack. Heck I don't think we've seen a single panel of Kid using haki ever. But we know they have it and must be using it since they are at the top. On the other hand, with Luffy v Kaido, it seems like every single attack and panel with hits displays haki. Why has Oda chosen to go this route? Not sure tbh but it does get frustrating having people debate whether BM went all out or not because we didn't see her use ACoC against them. I'd like to think she did use it since this was a full blown fight but with Oda not having shown it even once in their fight I can't have as much confidence.
It's not. Everyone thinks so, but only one out of 85 children of Big Mom has shown it. Katakuri has triplet brother's, Oven and Daifuku, they don't have it.
Rosinante and Homing, or the unnamed mother, no one mentioned as a CoC user. Big Mom's parents also seem unlikely, etc, etc.
It's not. Everyone thinks so, but only one out of 85 children of Big Mom has shown it. Katakuri has triplet brother's, Oven and Daifuku, they don't have it.
Rosinante and Homing, or the unnamed mother, no one mentioned as a CoC user. Big Mom's parents also seem unlikely, etc, etc.
Genetic doesn't mean it has to be a dominant gene. If you have blue eyes that doesn't mean your kid will definitely have blue eyes. The same applies to CoC haki. Also Katakuri is a fraternal triplet not identical triplet so their genes aren't the same. Same can be said for the Sandersonia sisters since Boa has it but her sisters don't.
Oda has not been as explicit as he can be but there are numerous times in the manga that they indicate it is genetic.
I don't think it's genetics... probably anyone can get it, but people closer to Luffy will have it because it's convenient to the story.
I think CoC is linked to personality, the natural leaders are CoC users. At principle people are born that way. I wonder if a traumatic experience that gives someone a 180 turn on personality could change their Haki leaning.
