Discussion Did Haki kill the creativity?

[M3J]

So, what are some of the common trait that CoC users have in common? No fear of death, ability to lead and inspire, charisma, ability to draw others to them, and what else?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

So, what are some of the common trait that CoC users have in common? No fear of death, ability to lead and inspire, charisma, ability to draw others to them, and what else?

Honestly other than ending up being strong fighters not sure there is that much in common among CoC users. Just going through your list there are exceptions for each:

• Death - Blackbeard was begging for his life against WB. Couldn't see Luffy/Roger ever doing something like that
• Ability to lead/inspire - Don't see much of this coming from Yamato (might be cuz of the newness of the character and how they've spent a lot of time imprisoned).
• Charisma - Is BM really charismatic to you? She seems to just use force to get her way...
• Ability to draw others to them - Do people like BM, Sengoku, Zoro, Yamato really draw people to them? BM is just forceful, Sengoku rose ranks in marines, Yamato has spent most her life pretending to be someone else, etc

I think overall, I think we are over reading into the personality of impacts of CoC. The only true commonality we can see is that all known CoC users get to the top tiers in fighting ability but each have wildly different personalities/ways of doing things/and goals. Heck I'm pretty sure we will end up finding out people like Mihawk have CoC too and he is as solo as a person can get in OP.

 

[M3J]

Blackbeard has CoC?
I think in Yamato's case, being new and not having the chance to lead.
well, that's a point, but there's something about her that keeps her own kids with her despite the shit she's done and does.
Zoro does, he's gotten people to support him and respect him. Sengoku probably. We haven't seen enough of him though, I guess?

Bu tone thing they do have in common is either leading or wanting to be king.

 

[hokageji]

i would say yes but Kidd and Law's fights have shown us it doesn't have to be... You would still need some armament level haki... i'm not sure if BB is confirmed but he'd be a good candidate for someone who can use awakening way better than the best forms of haki and far more dangerous

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Blackbeard not having CoC? Highly unlikely, he's an Emperor... someone who pretty much defeated Shanks. No way someone that can outdo Shanks is not a great Haki user... and this was without a fruit.

Like Rayleigh said, people at the top are likely CoC users. Blackbeard's right there, it would be weird if he didn't possess it. If character was what determined Haki... Usopp shouldn't possess it... he lacks confidence and doesn't have outstanding character.

The idea Haki is even will related... Luffy used King's Haki in a moment of fear and desperation, not with confidence or self-belief.. he thought Ace would die. If Haki was based on will and confidence or a positive mindset, then Luffy's King's Haki at Marineford should have been because he believed in himself, but he shouted "stop it" out of fear and desperation.
I really don't see why personality or character would determine CoC.

 

[McNuss]

So, what are some of the common trait that CoC users have in common? No fear of death, ability to lead and inspire, charisma, ability to draw others to them, and what else?

Megalomania

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Blackbeard has CoC?
I think in Yamato's case, being new and not having the chance to lead.
well, that's a point, but there's something about her that keeps her own kids with her despite the shit she's done and does.
Zoro does, he's gotten people to support him and respect him. Sengoku probably. We haven't seen enough of him though, I guess?

Bu tone thing they do have in common is either leading or wanting to be king.

That's true that BB is not a confirmed CoC user (likely will be revealed as one sooner or later).

My point in general is the commonality seems to be mostly around them being some of the strongest characters out there. But as far as personality traits there isn't that much in common among the known users. We have some CoC users who serve under other CoC users (Kata, Rayleigh, Oden, Zoro), we have some CoC users who's ambitions are not to be kings (WB, and I'd say Shanks), etc. Overall, the traits CoC users have in common seem to be more around what are common qualities of strong characters in OP e.g. we have powerful people that are not confirmed CoC users that behave in relatively the same way as CoC users we have seen Marine Admirals, Former Shichibukai, Supernova etc.

 

[McNuss]

That's true that BB is not a confirmed CoC user (likely will be revealed as one sooner or later).

My point in general is the commonality seems to be mostly around them being some of the strongest characters out there. But as far as personality traits there isn't that much in common among the known users. We have some CoC users who serve under other CoC users (Kata, Rayleigh, Oden, Zoro), we have some CoC users who's ambitions are not to be kings (WB, and I'd say Shanks), etc. Overall, the traits CoC users have in common seem to be more around what are common qualities of strong characters in OP e.g. we have powerful people that are not confirmed CoC users that behave in relatively the same way as CoC users we have seen Marine Admirals, Former Shichibukai, Supernova etc.

They all have an insane ambition not found in others,

We'd have to be a bit carefull here because a large deal of top tiers aren't fleshed out enough to the point that we can deconfirm them as CoC users.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2022 ---

Among the Supernova, Bonney and Urouge aren't fleshed out, while Law still has plenty of plot left that could make him a CoC user and that seems also pretty likely if there is any further power-up for him.

Admirals aren't fleshed out by timeskip standards.

Same goes for Mihawk, Weevil and Blackbeard.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

They all have an insane ambition not found in others,

We'd have to be a bit carefull here because a large deal of top tiers aren't fleshed out enough to the point that we can deconfirm them as CoC users.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2022 ---

Among the Supernova, Bonney and Urouge aren't fleshed out, while Law still has plenty of plot left that could make him a CoC user and that seems also pretty likely if there is any further power-up for him.

Admirals aren't fleshed out by timeskip standards.

Same goes for Mihawk, Weevil and Blackbeard.

Yes its true I shouldn't assume a character doesn't have CoC. But I think my core point still stands that the commonality is about the characters being strong and not the characters being CoC users. Until the manga says that all strong fighters must be CoC users (it's honestly starting to lean this way but I haven't given up hope yet), then there will be strong characters that don't have CoC who behave in relatively the same way.

 

[M3J]

That's true that BB is not a confirmed CoC user (likely will be revealed as one sooner or later).

My point in general is the commonality seems to be mostly around them being some of the strongest characters out there. But as far as personality traits there isn't that much in common among the known users. We have some CoC users who serve under other CoC users (Kata, Rayleigh, Oden, Zoro), we have some CoC users who's ambitions are not to be kings (WB, and I'd say Shanks), etc. Overall, the traits CoC users have in common seem to be more around what are common qualities of strong characters in OP e.g. we have powerful people that are not confirmed CoC users that behave in relatively the same way as CoC users we have seen Marine Admirals, Former Shichibukai, Supernova etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blackbeard doesn't have CoC whatsoever, especially considering how unlike most (or all CoC users?), he seems to fear death and isn't loyal. Plus, he seems to be the only D that doesn't follow the traits of a D, so he could be an outlier here too. If an opponent's haki can bypass his fruit power though, then I could see him having CoC.

True, but haven't most of them shown to lead and care for others? Katakuri is loyal to his crew and seems to be the person that others look up to after Big Mom. Rayleigh is loyal as well, and so many of his crew members looked up to him. Same with Oden and Zoro, and they're all confident in their abilities as well and don't fear death.

Whitebeard and Shanks are captains though, but like the aforementioned, they're confident, loyal, and seen as leaders. Big Mom seems to be the current exception (until we get more in a flashback) in that she doesnt' seem to attract others the way other CoC users do? But then, didn't she have the Minister whatever his name is support her and help her rise to power?

 

[hokageji]

Blackbeard not having CoC? Highly unlikely, he's an Emperor... someone who pretty much defeated Shanks. No way someone that can outdo Shanks is not a great Haki user... and this was without a fruit.

having CoC is fine. but having 2 or more DFs and being able to use awakening with them would be an unbeatable combination... can't imagine how his DF awakening works but looking at how it expands the horizon for Law and Kidd makes him far more dangerous than someone who uses CoC... surely BB could be a CoC user whether it is confirmed or not, but being an advanced CoC user doesn't necessarily make it better than two DFs with awakening... or atleast cant think of... happy to hear what you think.

 

[fastfonz]

Still seeing devil fruit powers shape fights unexpectedly. Law is the latest example of this. Also haki keeps changing, so the use of haki in itself has not been static but creative. Since haki was introduced it has changed and morphed including specializations and sub-specializations. Also, since then, devil fruits have kept changing, bringing in concepts like awakening or crazy fruits like Zunesha's fruit. In that sense, I do not think it has affected the overall creativity of the series. Now, it is being overused as to how the boss or final battles are decided, yes it has, but then even in that it has been creative uses and changes to haki. I see less creativity in his arc structure than in his use of haki. Oda repeats troupes and arcs are a bit repetitive. To me that is the biggest knock on his creativity, not devil fruits or haki as much. If you mean creativity in deciding who wins the main battle, then yes, but not the overall creativity of the series. The crazy designs of smiles is another recent example of his creativity in the current arc, or Kanjuro's drawings. We just saw a reaper figure out of the blue appear in front of Zoro and aren't sure if it was a subconscious thing or a new character. There were also soo many unexpected new powers that Law just displayed. From a giant strawhat kept by Im to still not knowing what the One Piece is, One Piece remains crazy creative. I also imagine we will see further haki evolutions.

 

[grey matter]

Blackbeard not having CoC? Highly unlikely, he's an Emperor... someone who pretty much defeated Shanks. No way someone that can outdo Shanks is not a great Haki user... and this was without a fruit.

Like Rayleigh said, people at the top are likely CoC users. Blackbeard's right there, it would be weird if he didn't possess it. If character was what determined Haki... Usopp shouldn't possess it... he lacks confidence and doesn't have outstanding character.

The idea Haki is even will related... Luffy used King's Haki in a moment of fear and desperation, not with confidence or self-belief.. he thought Ace would die. If Haki was based on will and confidence or a positive mindset, then Luffy's King's Haki at Marineford should have been because he believed in himself, but he shouted "stop it" out of fear and desperation.
I really don't see why personality or character would determine CoC.

Agree with the overall point, but a nitpick.

Blackbeard (pre fruit) never defeated Shanks.
The injury could've been from a battle, but with no conclusive outcome. We don't know how it played out

Regardless, I would be extremely surprised if BB doesn't have conqueror's haki.
He's a Yonko and has the drive/willpower to reach the top.

 

[King nenenorth]

Haki just expanded the stages of progression and the toolbox. I find it absurd to generalize "haki" when the real accusation obviously recently hits Conqueror's or King's Haki in particular. All established strength differences are annulled, no matter how great ("strongest creature"), and no other factors matter (aside from "I punch you first" stuff).
But as we've seen sufficiently now, Oda doesn't need that to annul differences and effects, sort of like Law using "Silence" but more totally and backhandedly. Suddenly Law is an endurance monster who can get punched incessantly right in the head by Big Mom herself. Maybe not "suddenly", but it happens without noticing and only for arbitrary characters. Oda uses that trick all the time, blows seem bad, but characters just have to hold on a while and it won't matter. Though I find Wano entertaining, it might be where Oda most reveals his weaknesses in balancing and portraying character growth in a believable way. Still mostly affecting Luffy, due to the aforementioned CoC, but also in how he suddenly is literally as strong and fast as Kaido, and also vastly more enduring than before when hit (already right before the CoC unlock). After Luffy's beating from Katakuri lay the groundwork for that (though there was still something "gritty" about that, and I think the anime made it look more unbalanced).
I wonder if Oda sometimes feels like Usopp or Buggy thinking about that possible exposure, but he's probably too sure of himself for that.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Blackbeard (pre fruit) never defeated Shanks.
The injury could've been from a battle, but with no conclusive outcome. We don't know how it played out

Reason I say defeated is because of this:

1. https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/yonko-commander-bounty.3009334/post-4643169

Whenever a character has a scar that aches whenever they are reminded by whom they acquire it from, it's either due to humiliation or defeat. If you do look at that, it seems Shanks did get defeated by Blackbeard pre-fruit.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 16, 2022 ---

Yes its true I shouldn't assume a character doesn't have CoC. But I think my core point still stands that the commonality is about the characters being strong and not the characters being CoC users. Until the manga says that all strong fighters must be CoC users (it's honestly starting to lean this way but I haven't given up hope yet), then there will be strong characters that don't have CoC who behave in relatively the same way.

It's evident as you say, not all strong fighters are CoC users. Marco isn't as far as we know and he may not be. King doesn't have it, Queen doesn't have it. Lacking King's Haki just means there's a limit to one's potential, but it doesn't mean you aren't strong.
When you get to the level of Admiral or Emperor, chances are you have King's Haki.
It would be like being amongst the best chess players in the world, chances are they all have insane memory that even the most gifted would pale in comparison to if I had to guess.

having CoC is fine. but having 2 or more DFs and being able to use awakening with them would be an unbeatable combination... can't imagine how his DF awakening works but looking at how it expands the horizon for Law and Kidd makes him far more dangerous than someone who uses CoC... surely BB could be a CoC user whether it is confirmed or not, but being an advanced CoC user doesn't necessarily make it better than two DFs with awakening... or atleast cant think of... happy to hear what you think.

At the end of the day, no matter how many DFs Blackbeard has, he will be defeated by a punch that was too strong to recover from. I highly doubt he won't be a CoC user especially when he was able to scar Shanks who said he was already an experienced Pirate.
In fact, Shanks was scarred few months before he met Luffy in East Blue as stated by the Ace Novel, so Blackbeard really must be a beast of a character if Shanks had to approach Whitebeard just because he acquired 1 fruit.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Though I find Wano entertaining, it might be where Oda most reveals his weaknesses in balancing and portraying character growth in a believable way.

This is my biggest takeaway. There's loud minorities in the fandom that either HATE or LOVE Wano but I find myself square in the middle on it. Powerscaling and quality of haki consistency in narrative aside, the only thing I've 'hated' about it so far are the constant fakeout deaths. I can't judge that entirely until the end of the arc, but it's already downright silly how many times the emotional rug has been pulled out from under the reader.

I always knew that CoC would have some role to play in equalizing the playing field between Luffy and the top-tiers, but just... coating it like Armament feels like the laziest possible answer. It still feels like a last minute thing by Oda throwing his hands up. At least with futuresight we got a small flashback retconning Rayleigh as having mentioned 'some strong opponents are capable of seeing a bit in the future', but nothing to suggest Rayleigh even mentioning 'hey that special form of haki I've been teaching you about? Next time you're in a life-and-death battle try simply coating yourself with it like normal CoA, it's apparently something you can just do'.

CoA: an invisible suit of armor you coat on yourself or weapons
CoO: a sensory enhancement you use for superhuman perception
CoC: a mysterious emanation of willpower and intimidation, until it's also revealed to just be a really fancy version of CoA

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I wouldn't be surprised if Blackbeard doesn't have CoC whatsoever, especially considering how unlike most (or all CoC users?), he seems to fear death and isn't loyal. Plus, he seems to be the only D that doesn't follow the traits of a D, so he could be an outlier here too. If an opponent's haki can bypass his fruit power though, then I could see him having CoC.

I'd always hoped he wouldn't so we can have some variety in the Yonko but I think he will end up having it. As for your reasoning on why he may not have it, I don't think personality will matter much so long as he was born with it. At the end of the day BB is trying to become pirate king and he has taken lots of risks to make it this far, which does line up with a lot of the Ds. Plus nothing in the haki rule book that says a person can't be a cowardly villain if they have CoC.

True, but haven't most of them shown to lead and care for others? Katakuri is loyal to his crew and seems to be the person that others look up to after Big Mom. Rayleigh is loyal as well, and so many of his crew members looked up to him. Same with Oden and Zoro, and they're all confident in their abilities as well and don't fear death.

Whitebeard and Shanks are captains though, but like the aforementioned, they're confident, loyal, and seen as leaders. Big Mom seems to be the current exception (until we get more in a flashback) in that she doesnt' seem to attract others the way other CoC users do? But then, didn't she have the Minister whatever his name is support her and help her rise to power?

Well there are people like Kata and Rayleigh that achieved similar levels of strength and leadership but don't have CoC e.g. Marco, King, Jozu, Vista, Queen etc. None of these guys appear to fear death, they have leadership qualities, are powerful,...the whole nine yards.

As for WB and Shanks, they are both some of the most powerful people out there but there ambitions are actually pretty tame. WB just wanted to have a family. Unlike other characters he chose to not go for OP even though he could. Shanks similarly doesn't seem to want to get to OP (maybe because he knows he isn't meant to) and instead has invested in the future, which he sees as Luffy. If being ambitious is a prerequisite of CoC then why are two people who are capable of more settling for less?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

True, but haven't most of them shown to lead and care for others?

Leadership isn't a factor, Rayleigh and Katakuri are subordinates to someone.
Joker was also subordinate to Kaido.

People look up to Vivi, should she be a King's Haki user? How about Crocodile? Moriah? All leaders. Why aren't they Haki users?

Compare Luffy to any of them, he's not a competent leader, doesn't know how to lead. Even Nami is a better leader than Luffy in terms of skill. Zoro is a subordinate willing to sacrifice himself for Luffy, it has nothing to do with leadership or character.
It's as simple as you got it or you don't.
Sengoku has it and he is pretty much under someone too.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2022 ---

I always knew that CoC would have some role to play in equalizing the playing field between Luffy and the top-tiers

What exactly did you expect in a series where bad guys are defeated by strongest punch philosophy the further you go?
What projection in power did you see besides hitting harder after over 1,000 chapters?

 

[M3J]

I'd always hoped he wouldn't so we can have some variety in the Yonko but I think he will end up having it. As for your reasoning on why he may not have it, I don't think personality will matter much so long as he was born with it. At the end of the day BB is trying to become pirate king and he has taken lots of risks to make it this far, which does line up with a lot of the Ds. Plus nothing in the haki rule book that says a person can't be a cowardly villain if they have CoC.


Well there are people like Kata and Rayleigh that achieved similar levels of strength and leadership but don't have CoC e.g. Marco, King, Jozu, Vista, Queen etc. None of these guys appear to fear death, they have leadership qualities, are powerful,...the whole nine yards.

As for WB and Shanks, they are both some of the most powerful people out there but there ambitions are actually pretty tame. WB just wanted to have a family. Unlike other characters he chose to not go for OP even though he could. Shanks similarly doesn't seem to want to get to OP (maybe because he knows he isn't meant to) and instead has invested in the future, which he sees as Luffy. If being ambitious is a prerequisite of CoC then why are two people who are capable of more settling for less?

Personality might matter, or at least conditions to him unlocking CoC. Like, Luffy and Ace wouldn't have been able to unlock CoC if they were selfish and didn't care about others. Blackbeard doesn't seem to care about others. I know, hence why the conjectures and discussions. I don't care if he does have CoC or not, it makes no difference to me either way.

I mean, I'm not saying it's impossible to be born with CoC, just that it could be more to it than just that.

But they're also emperors and captains, and Whitebeard was ambitious, but in a different way. He was ambitious in creating a family and protecting them, to the point that he sacrificed his own life to save his family. As for Shanks, who knows. Maybe his ambition is peace, as he tries his best to avoid violence or further violence, especially in others' wars.

Leadership isn't a factor, Rayleigh and Katakuri are subordinates to someone.
Joker was also subordinate to Kaido.

People look up to Vivi, should she be a King's Haki user? How about Crocodile? Moriah? All leaders. Why aren't they Haki users?

Compare Luffy to any of them, he's not a competent leader, doesn't know how to lead. Even Nami is a better leader than Luffy in terms of skill. Zoro is a subordinate willing to sacrifice himself for Luffy, it has nothing to do with leadership or character.
It's as simple as you got it or you don't.
Sengoku has it and he is pretty much under someone too.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2022 ---

What exactly did you expect in a series where bad guys are defeated by strongest punch philosophy the further you go?
What projection in power did you see besides hitting harder after over 1,000 chapters?

As I said, their own crew members looked up to Rayleigh and Katakuri as well and saw them as the leaders after their respective captains. Doflamingo is also the captain of his own crew.

He doesn't care to be the captain or lead as much unless necessary, both simply out of choice and because of his personality. But when he does have to lead, he is a good leader, if not a motivational one. It's because of Luffy's character that Zoro's willing to sacrifice himself. Luffy's character is what wins people over, especially since he motivates others and inspires them. That's probably another thing most CoC users have in common.

Sengoku was a fleet admiral, so he was still a leader. You don't have to be the highest leader or captain to be a leader, especially in a large organization.




THough, I suppose how CoC has been unlocked so far could also indicate the trait needed? Ace and Luffy used it unconsciously to protect the ones that they cared about. I don't remember who else unlocked CoC for the first time on panel other than those two, though. Katakuri could have unlocked CoC as well trying to protect someone he cared about. But also, so far the users have also been confident, whether from early on or at the time of unlocking CoC.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

As I said, their own crew members looked up to Rayleigh and Katakuri as well and saw them as the leaders after their respective captains. Doflamingo is also the captain of his own crew.

So, why is it that less than 1 in a million have King's Haki?

If that were the case, all kings in the series should surely be King's Haki users no?

1. People look up to Smoker.
2. People even look up to Tashigi.
3. People look up to someone.

Literally if that were the requirement, everyone would use King's Haki.

THough, I suppose how CoC has been unlocked so far could also indicate the trait needed? Ace and Luffy used it unconsciously to protect the ones that they cared about. I don't remember who else unlocked CoC for the first time on panel other than those two, though. Katakuri could have unlocked CoC as well trying to protect someone he cared about. But also, so far the users have also been confident, whether from early on or at the time of unlocking CoC.

So, protection, if it is also another requirement... Who does Big Mom want to Protect other than herself? Or Joker who happily sacrifies people for his own gain?

If being looked up to is what determined having King's Haki.. ALL Pirate captains would have it. There are millions of people that are looked up to. People look up to Kings and Kings care about people (some do). King Cobra, King Riku... they're not King's Haki users.

And if you had to care for others, Big Mom and Joker wouldn't have it. They care for no one. In fact, Katakuri might not have it if caring was the requirement, the man killed innocent people just for seeing his face. But then I guess if you were certain this was a criteria, then how is the level of caring defined?

Rebecca should have it since she wanted to protect her family, VIvi would also be a King's Haki user if protect was the foundation for King's Haki. Literally everyone in the series would be King's Haki users if personality was what determined Kings' Haki.

Care for someone? Check.
Someone looks up to you? Check.
That's literally everyone.

There's literally nothing to debate about this as we've been told, you're born with it unless we're saying Garp's wrong. This pretty much explains why only certain people have it. People are not all born equal.