Discussion Elizabeth

[kkck]

Take her to the battlefield, he doesn't have a choice but to always be with her in order to protect her, leaving her alone when two Gods with overwhelming abilities want both of them dead is stupid.

She doesn't have any battle oriented capabilities since she isn't a fighter, what is so difficult to understand here? You want to change her entire character or persona? it is like to expect Orihime from Bleach to change her invincible barrier or heal capability into a weapon.

She was able to do the Indura thing, as well as the Mera' miasma because that is exactly her specialty, purification.
Doesn't purification need a high level of magic power? Nope since Merlin who has Infinity has 4K of magic power level, same magic power wanted by both Gods, why? Because it is hax when it is used in the right way. Hax ignores your power level.

As I said, I need that someone as powerful as a 10 Commandment or an Archangel comment on her magic power. I need the top tier's opinion. Even King since he has 40K of magic power.

but she already has feats surpassing archangels or commandments. A comment wouldn't hurt but the feats are there.

 

[LaserBeam]

but she already has feats surpassing archangels or commandments. A comment wouldn't hurt but the feats are there.

I say she is very powerful but she had never been interested into devoloping / training her powers in this weeks chapter it kinda hints this.

 

[OtakuFreak]

but she already has feats surpassing archangels or commandments. A comment wouldn't hurt but the feats are there.

According to Sobreno; those feats have no merit whatsoever because she used a ''hax'' ability. He consistently goes against manga events just to fit his narrative; just learn to not take this guy's arguments seriously

I say see is very powerful but she had never been interested into devoloping / training her powers in this weeks chapter it kinda hints this.

What do you mean?

 

[sobreno]

but she already has feats surpassing archangels or commandments. A comment wouldn't hurt but the feats are there.

Which feat? And in which category beside purification she is better than them?

Literally, everyone in this manga gets a comment about their power except her? Coincidence? I don't think so.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2018 ---

According to Sobreno; those feats have no merit whatsoever because she used a ''hax'' ability. He consistently goes against manga events just to fit his narrative; just learn to not take this guy's arguments seriously



What do you mean?

Have no merit in the battle sense of thing, nuance. You can't use a character which uses purification stuff to suddenly said: Oh she is powerful enough to fight an experienced fighter at the top tier despite having zero training or master lmao.

The narrative stated her as a non-combatant, it is you who are going against that narrative by comparing her with top tier fighter.

 

[Undina]

She outperformed them? Yes. At what? Purification. Something the Archangels never tried to do.Purge is a spell which worked on Fraudrin but does is mean that Hendrickson and Zarataras have more Magic power than him? No. Her technique was just the same, it had no offensive property. Right now Elizabeth isn't a Human, she is a Goddess.Nowhere has it been said that she got her strength sealed or anything. She is awakened. Tarmiel even pointed out that Elizabeth failing was natural since they were being pressured by them.

Spoiler

Let There Be Light is a spell which works under specific conditions. Until she shows something of note in a fight I won't consider her as someone at their level because she doesn't have the feats nor the reputation. In no way has she been portrayed as superior to Ludociel. She threatened Derrierie? But in the end she did nothing. Threats are not feats. In the previous chapter Zeldris tanked an Ark from Ludociel and retaliated, Ludociel stopped it and managed to protect the others, those are clear feats demonstrating their strengths. Elizabeth hasn't shown anything putting her at that level of power.

-Elizabeth is awakened to her identity as a goddess, she remains a "cursed goddess to a human form etc";
-there's no need for a verbal statement about her power, Nakaba has shown it twice in the canon coloured artwork since her awakening, since, triskele aside, she still has eyes of different colours when activating her power, whereas in her goddess form they were of the same colour.
That visual split is stereotypical to at the very least shounen stories to imply either
a) partial awakening( but that is not the case, she got her curse triggering memories of her past lives and access to her abilities), or
b) lack of control of her power( again, it's not much of a case, since ever she awakened she's successfully applied her abilities/skills, granted, she hasn't had to do so in too dire circumstances);
c)or the likeliest option, she doesn't have all of her power available as a goddess, since she's bound in a human physical form, lacking her wings(which by Word of God are markers of power development for the GC) and with an incomplete change of her eyes when her power is in use, and the most glaring thing of all, under punishment.
Considering how much the demons complain about the Goddesses brainwashing people and whatever else they can do, it makes sense if the DK was the one to punish her to also deprive her of access to all of her power. That much doesn't really need stating, it's one of the typical shonen tropes for characters that started their existence in a high position in their respective universe, it's happened to Meliodas, though maybe differently from a technical standpoint. Not to mention that all of the mains(excuse me if I omit the usual comic relief and mascot) have had to either reveal/recover all their power gradually, or achieve it likewise. In no way is this form of Elizabeth the same( power wise) as her original goddess form.
Hikari Are was seen doing 2 things:
1)debuffing Monspeet and Derrieri from their Indura forbidden technique, it still counts as a disarming skill, leaving room to offense hard or impossible to block...
2) and, at Corrand,sending the corrupted souls controlling Diane forcibly to the afterlife or wherever they went, which counts as a killing blow, the souls were purified and eliminated from Britannia's plane of existence.
Tranquilize also counts as a debuffer, it took away all the PoD fueling Melascula's actions as a fighter, deprived her of access to her humanoid form and Elizabeth did that to her without breaking a sweat, while in her limited form, as others said.
Also, please don't forget that before she even awoke to her true identity, she dispelled whatever Zeldris cast on Merlin, it got her tired, but it still worked against magic of superior quality(royal demon) from a TC with 61k PL. So whatever PL she may have now and may have had as a goddess, even her type of magic(main ability) must be of a highly different quality to the AAs we know to make up for what I expect to be a quite glaring difference in PL between her current form and TCs of 50k+ PL.
These along with her feat against Derrieri in 188(which counts as clear offense) and the fact that the ark she added to her slap improved the momentum(?) and knocked Meliodas off his feet while knowing his physical prowess. With or without the element of surprise, even I was shocked that it did more than comically turn his face to the side or bounced off.
Also, why are you using Zaratras and Hendy as examples?! Zaratras used a life sacrificing version to simply extract a different, superior powerwise, life-form from his host, but that exchange was still one VS one and he was physically latched to Dreyfus/Fraudrin, in a way he couldn't have been rapidly shaken off, goddess Elizabeth was also dealing with direct pressure from 2 Induras(head-on) which she was handling pretty well while they were still in phase 1 and she a non-physical fighter.
Hendy's employments of Purge only help exemplify its use as debuffer or finishing blow( on lesser demons), as for the power reference, remind me why does it matter the magic power difference when it was used on the kind of energy you not so long ago were claiming it had no bearing on the demons' MP?! Hendy's Purge didn't work at all on Fraudrin, Elizabeth's Hikari Are had to be desperately opposed through the amplification of their PoD by the 2 Indura, she clearly was surpassing both in something, pick your poison.
As for that page example, many of you are reading it backwards if we're to trust that translation: Tarmiel is not surprised they're starting to repress her, since they had been overwhelming the 2 AAs. But that phrasing only tells us they admitted that she was expected to still require(by herself) more effort from the opponents to fight off than the 2 of them combined(with all their military experience and raw power). They acknowledged her superiority to both of them, while not falling into the extreme of believing her too far above, she's admittedly, by all parties here, inexperienced when compared to them. However, even as a noob to war...as a goddess, she's still in Ludociel's PL range(the whole wings size/number debacle) and has some abilities of pretty high potency and effect, even when she can't be backed up by very high MP(I doubt her human form's PL changed from 1925...at least, it didn't jump high... till the moment she recovered her memory)

Come on, clearly elizabeth has shown insane magic so far. Even as a human with sealed power her PL was at about 1.9k, as much as gil and howser had at the time. As a goddess elizabeth was able to suppress two induras on her own. Meanwhile even the archangels could not even put a dent on the induras. And sure, she did need help to finish removing the curse but even without the archangels help she still did more against the induras than the other 3 archangels. Add to that her more recent feat of removing melascula's miasma which she did even in her human form in which she still does not have full access to her power. If her magic was able to purify melascula then odds are her power easily exceeds melascula's 35k. And in her goddess form odds are her PL is at least in league with that of the archangels, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to hold back the induras even for a second. That said, that is still different from elizabeth being a fighter, she simply has massive magic power and the ability to use it.

There's also still that feat with dispelling whatever Zeldris cast on Merlin when he attacked her, that was before Elizabeth had recovered her memories. Merlin may have had some resistance due to the blessings(though I'm not so sure they're perfectly working), but it still put her in a coma and was gradually consuming her. So, without having a conscious grasp of her abilities, Elizabeth still used them on magic cast by Zeldris, and I suppose it's safe to say that "curse" was enabled by his "God" ability.

She outperformed the archangels because her magical power affected the Indura's whilst Ludoshel's power didn't; it's not because it's merely purification. If you don't have the fundamental power behind an ability against an opponnent than it will surely fail. Actually no; Elizabeth is not a Goddess at the current moment in the manga; chapter 224 clearly depicts that while she is cursed by her mother; the Supreme Deity; she will be reincarnated in a constant cycle over time as a human. Sure; she has her memories but that doesn't mean she's retrieved all of her power. The ''Let There Be Light'' example I used in her Goddess vs Human form illustrates this idea. It's natural that a human will not have the same equivalent power as a Goddess; even if she's fundamentally a Goddess in her original incarnation.

That statement by Tarmiel only defines that Elizabeth is struggling because Indura effortlessly took out the archangels; a powerful fighting force. In no way it is saying she's weaker than the archangels.

Also; Ludoshel clearly respects her power and position in the clan. When he was individually fighting against Indura; he was freaking out and screaming for assistance by the other archangels but the moment Elizabeth appears he's suddenly calm and wants her assistance instead. If she didn't have any notable power then he would've told her to get out of the way.



Problem with Goddess Elizabeth's character is due to how Nakaba has revealed barely any information regarding her title; power; or reputation. During the flashback arc; any information given about Elizabeth was extremely vague. For example; Ludoshel commented on her ''status'' but never directly mentioned what that specifically mean't (her being SD daughter); then you take into account Monspiet recognised her identify but didn't specifically mention who she was.

Overall; Nakaba has been very vague about any information regarding the Goddess Clan and Goddess Elizabeth is no exception. But with the reemergence of the Goddesses in the latest chapters; then we will hopefully get more information regarding Elizabeth's true position/power.

I'd put this down to agree-disagree (btw)

Regarding your suggestion that "Ludoshel could've told (her) to get out of the way", actually, I have to correct you, were she inferior to them powerwise, they would've put her back in that Ark shield, shoved her aside("for your own safety, lady Elizabeth") then proceeded with confronting the Indura and maybe Mel, or just the Indura, cause Mel would've likely prioritised retrieving Elizabeth. Hell, if she wasn't deemed highly competent, they would've never let the dainty flower out of the Celestial Realm and onto the battlefields of Britannia. Cause she wasn't relegated to healing, they wouldn't abide diplomacy with the demons, so I don't see why else they'd let a royal unable to fend for herself out on the violent battlefields.

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

But her Ark is pathetic compared to the Archangel's ark. Her strong point is purification.
Nope, supportive isn't offensive, supportive is the better term.
Indeed, useful as a team but useless alone by herself against a strong fighter at the top tier.

Her arc destroyed Derriere's arm while she only stopped her from her friend.That was even before her powers awakened.
Is it comparable to the AAs? Likely not.Pathetic? Now you're just degrading her

Offensive is a better term than "for battle". Supportive isn't offensive,but is battle oriented.

 

[sobreno]

Her arc destroyed Derriere's arm while she only stopped her from her friend.That was even before her powers awakened.
Is it comparable to the AAs? Likely not.Pathetic? Now you're just degrading her

Offensive is a better term than "for battle". Supportive isn't offensive,but is battle oriented.

Lol, she was like what? Human? With a power level of what? 1930.
Now try to process it, it is hax or raw power?

I am not degrading her, I am stating the truth, she has displayed nothing impressive in " offensive " part. Supportive part? Yeah, I agree.

 

[kkck]

Lol, she was like what? Human? With a power level of what? 1930.
Now try to process it, it is hax or raw power?

I am not degrading her, I am stating the truth, she has displayed nothing impressive in " offensive " part. Supportive part? Yeah, I agree.

Supporting? When has elizabeth done any support in a fight? She didn't do any support in the stigma battle at the start of king's and diane's time travel trip, she didn't do any supporting against the induras, and she certainly didn't do any support against melascula. The only thing that might barely count as support is when she healed the sins when fighting chandler however she barely took part in that fight to begin with. And banking on that one fight in which she barely took part on to claim she does support when she has done the most extreme opposite of support in most other fights she has been in would be asinine.

 

[sobreno]

Supporting? When has elizabeth done any support in a fight? She didn't do any support in the stigma battle at the start of king's and diane's time travel trip, she didn't do any supporting against the induras, and she certainly didn't do any support against melascula. The only thing that might barely count as support is when she healed the sins when fighting chandler however she barely took part in that fight to begin with. And banking on that one fight in which she barely took part on to claim she does support when she has done the most extreme opposite of support in most other fights she has been in would be asinine.

She didn't fight either like 98% of the characters of this series. She supports her them " purifying " the enemy.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I’m probably gonna regret triggering everyone but here are basically the major modern Goddess Elizabeth feats we’ve actually seen and can draw information from for comparison

Elizabeth’s durability: When she’s off her guard (even though she was looking straight at Deri) she is easy to knock out as evident by the punch. When Ludoshel, Sariel, and Tarmiel are off their guards or screwing around in battle/ being cocky they can take far greater degrees of damage and not be knocked out. 4AA have shown much more durability in the same situation. Lastly, situations do not take away from your durability. So anyone who says that a “negotiation setting” would ruin her durability really doesn’t grasp how a fight works. Being off your guard ruins ur durability, but others (except Eli) have compensated this and fought on. Again being off your guard ruins durability, not being at a tea party, or a rave, or on the field of battle affect it.

Speed: Ludoshel can outspeed two commandments before they can even react. Sariel can also outspeed Monspeet with his attacks. Elizabeth as of now was unable to dodge a punch that was coming in her general direction. Granted she was off guard, but she was looking right at Derieri and Ludoshel can dodge in an even fancier manner while also being off of his guard.

Magic: She couldn’t purify two indura, but with help she could. However, we have no magical feat comparisons because Elizabeth purified darkness while Ludoshel and the others tried to attack their physical bodies. But for those who insist- Elizabeth might have a slight advantage in magic.

Strength: 4AA are a lot stronger. There’s not even a debate about this.

Power level: King could easily detect Ludoshel and said his magic rivals or surpasses the 10C. He also was able to detect Meliodas’ magic when he first appeared 3,000 years ago. Literally no one has ever made any comments about Elizabeth’s power.

Vs the deities: Can’t say anything about this because no one knows what happened. It’s implied that the two were toyed with as a punishment, so really there’s no way to gauge the progress of it. If you wanna run with Elizabeth though, go ahead and make up a scenario and your head. I’m sure that’ll get us far

 

[OtakuFreak]

I’m probably gonna regret triggering everyone but here are basically the major modern Goddess Elizabeth feats we’ve actually seen and can draw information from for comparison

Elizabeth’s durability: When she’s off her guard (even though she was looking straight at Deri) she is easy to knock out as evident by the punch. When Ludoshel, Sariel, and Tarmiel are off their guards or screwing around in battle/ being cocky they can take far greater degrees of damage and not be knocked out. 4AA have shown much more durability in the same situation. Lastly, situations do not take away from your durability. So anyone who says that a “negotiation setting” would ruin her durability really doesn’t grasp how a fight works. Being off your guard ruins ur durability, but others (except Eli) have compensated this and fought on. Again being off your guard ruins durability, not being at a tea party, or a rave, or on the field of battle affect it.

Speed: Ludoshel can outspeed two commandments before they can even react. Sariel can also outspeed Monspeet with his attacks. Elizabeth as of now was unable to dodge a punch that was coming in her general direction. Granted she was off guard, but she was looking right at Derieri and Ludoshel can dodge in an even fancier manner while also being off of his guard.

Magic: She couldn’t purify two indura, but with help she could. However, we have no magical feat comparisons because Elizabeth purified darkness while Ludoshel and the others tried to attack their physical bodies. But for those who insist- Elizabeth might have a slight advantage in magic.

Strength: 4AA are a lot stronger. There’s not even a debate about this.

Power level: King could easily detect Ludoshel and said his magic rivals or surpasses the 10C. He also was able to detect Meliodas’ magic when he first appeared 3,000 years ago. Literally no one has ever made any comments about Elizabeth’s power.

Vs the deities: Can’t say anything about this because no one knows what happened. It’s implied that the two were toyed with as a punishment, so really there’s no way to gauge the progress of it. If you wanna run with Elizabeth though, go ahead and make up a scenario and your head. I’m sure that’ll get us far

Durability: Sure; she got knocked for a few brief moments by Derriere but then again the context plays into the scenario. I'm not saying the negotiation reduced her durability - that's silly. But she was off guard when Ludoshel murdered innocent civilians right in front of her; she wasn't in a state to react to Derriere's punch. It may have been possible for Goddess Elizabeth to react and dodge/block if she wasn't caught off guard and therefore not be knocked out. We don't know; but then again it was a mere punch and not a special attack so it's more likely she would've blocked or dodged it. Then again; neither of us can say whether or not this is true or not - Its just speculation. You're also leaving out the fact that Human Elizabeth received a deep cut to her face and was able to remain conscious and heal it instantly. Also; all Goddesses have access to the innate healing that the Archangels demonstrated; so that's Elizabeth some levels of durability already. Especially when she didnt receive a permanent injury from the punch. Sure; from what the Archangels demonstrated they have higher levels of durability; but Goddess Elizabeth doesn't lack these skills either - she just has less of it.

Speed: Goddess Elizabeth hasnt demonstrated much of this skill. She might have been able to react to the punch if she was in a state ready for it. Then again; I still think the Archangels beat her in this category.

Strength: Goes to the Archangels.

Magic: Now is this where Goddess Elizabeth wins hands down. Ludoshels magic had the same opportunity she had; Indura was standing still and his magical attack had no effect on her when they weren't blocking; dodging or shielding themselves from the attack and it had no effect; not even a scratch. Yet Goddess Elizabeth with the same opportunity was able to push back both Indura's and force them to a state of desperation (Meliodas said this) and only when they started to become more demonic and strengthened themselves; did she start to suffer and her attack started to fail and with a power boost from the Archangels - she was able to purify them. This engagement demonstrates that her magical power is considerably higher than the Archangels. Ludoshel; the strongest Archangel coudnt leave a scratch on a single indura; yet Goddess Elizabeth was able to affect both and make them react and become stronger in order to not be purified by her and even then; it wasn't completely one-sided; yes she would've failed without help but it isn't as if they strengthened themselves and the attack immediately failed.

The gap in magical power must be considerate if Ludoshel was unable to affect Indura (not a scratch) before they became more demonic but Elizabeth was still able to hold them back after they became more demonic. Sure she would've failed long term without help but her magic power had conclusively considerable higher levels of effectiveness than Ludoshel. Before you give me the whole argument of "purification is better than Offensive ability in this situation" - there is nothing in the manga that hints or says this and since we are going off feats alone; you can't use that as an excuse to argue.

Elizabeth has considerably higher levels of magic power than Ludoshel; the strongest Archangel. She outperformed him against an opponent from a magical stand point.

Power level: Her background was extremely vague during the flashback arc. Monspiet and Ludoshel commented on her reputation (as the Supreme Deity's daughter) but didn't specifically say. Nakaba has been very vague about the Goddess Clan and Elizabeth is no exception.

The Gods: The Supreme Deity and the Demon King were obviously toying against their children. Nevertheless; you can clearly see that Goddess Elizabeth performed just as well as Demon mark Meliodas outside assault mode when tanking the damage. Showing she does have levels of durability. Also; the whole "they used more power on Meliodas than Elizabeth" isn't a reliable and realistic excuse for this.

She has considerably higher levels of magic power but does get out performed physically. The Archangels are warriors and have obviously refined all of their skills for battle. Elizabeth is a princess and is less suited for battle due to this and for her personality; but this doesn't mean she lacks physical ability; she just has less of it in comparison to the archangels.

Physically = Archangels.
Magically = Goddess Elizabeth.
Overall = Who knows?? Maybe the Archangels physically ability helps them have an overall higher PL or Elizabeth's magic ability instead puts them above them. We don't know overall.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Durability: Sure; she got knocked for a few brief moments by Derriere but then again the context plays into the scenario. I'm not saying the negotiation reduced her durability - that's silly. But she was off guard when Ludoshel murdered innocent civilians right in front of her; she wasn't in a state to react to Derriere's punch. It may have been possible for Goddess Elizabeth to react and dodge/block if she wasn't caught off guard and therefore not be knocked out. We don't know; but then again it was a mere punch and not a special attack so it's more likely she would've blocked or dodged it. Then again; neither of us can say whether or not this is true or not - Its just speculation. You're also leaving out the fact that Human Elizabeth received a deep cut to her face and was able to remain conscious and heal it instantly. Also; all Goddesses have access to the innate healing that the Archangels demonstrated; so that's Elizabeth some levels of durability already. Especially when she didnt receive a permanent injury from the punch. Sure; from what the Archangels demonstrated they have higher levels of durability; but Goddess Elizabeth doesn't lack these skills either - she just has less of it.

Speed: Goddess Elizabeth hasnt demonstrated much of this skill. She might have been able to react to the punch if she was in a state ready for it. Then again; I still think the Archangels beat her in this category.

Strength: Goes to the Archangels.

Magic: Now is this where Goddess Elizabeth wins hands down. Ludoshels magic had the same opportunity she had; Indura was standing still and his magical attack had no effect on her when they weren't blocking; dodging or shielding themselves from the attack and it had no effect; not even a scratch. Yet Goddess Elizabeth with the same opportunity was able to push back both Indura's and force them to a state of desperation (Meliodas said this) and only when they started to become more demonic and strengthened themselves; did she start to suffer and her attack started to fail and with a power boost from the Archangels - she was able to purify them. This engagement demonstrates that her magical power is considerably higher than the Archangels. Ludoshel; the strongest Archangel coudnt leave a scratch on a single indura; yet Goddess Elizabeth was able to affect both and make them react and become stronger in order to not be purified by her and even then; it wasn't completely one-sided; yes she would've failed without help but it isn't as if they strengthened themselves and the attack immediately failed.

The gap in magical power must be considerate if Ludoshel was unable to affect Indura (not a scratch) before they became more demonic but Elizabeth was still able to hold them back after they became more demonic. Sure she would've failed long term without help but her magic power had conclusively considerable higher levels of effectiveness than Ludoshel. Before you give me the whole argument of "purification is better than Offensive ability in this situation" - there is nothing in the manga that hints or says this and since we are going off feats alone; you can't use that as an excuse to argue.

Elizabeth has considerably higher levels of magic power than Ludoshel; the strongest Archangel. She outperformed him against an opponent from a magical stand point.

Power level: Her background was extremely vague during the flashback arc. Monspiet and Ludoshel commented on her reputation (as the Supreme Deity's daughter) but didn't specifically say. Nakaba has been very vague about the Goddess Clan and Elizabeth is no exception.

The Gods: The Supreme Deity and the Demon King were obviously toying against their children. Nevertheless; you can clearly see that Goddess Elizabeth performed just as well as Demon mark Meliodas outside assault mode when tanking the damage. Showing she does have levels of durability. Also; the whole "they used more power on Meliodas than Elizabeth" isn't a reliable and realistic excuse for this.

She has considerably higher levels of magic power but does get out performed physically. The Archangels are warriors and have obviously refined all of their skills for battle. Elizabeth is a princess and is less suited for battle due to this and for her personality; but this doesn't mean she lacks physical ability; she just has less of it in comparison to the archangels.

Physically = Archangels.
Magically = Goddess Elizabeth.
Overall = Who knows?? Maybe the Archangels physically ability helps them have an overall higher PL or Elizabeth's magic ability instead puts them above them. We don't know overall.

Again you're missing the point.

Ludoshel, Sairel, and Tarmiel were also off their guards during that fight as well. All three of them were cocky and inattentive, but they did not get knocked out. Why should Elizabeth get special treatment? Did you not read that part that I purposely spent the majority of my focus on for that segment to draw the comparison?

I mean I've been fighting/ sparring with others for over two years and I can assure you that the antics that the 4AA pulled would've put them in the same risk as Elizabeth for being knocked out. In a fight if you're off your guard your body is more susceptible to damage due to shock and being overall relaxed. Elizabeth was off her guard and so were the other four AA. But for the last time only one of them got KO'ed in the exact situation. The fact that she was negoating doesn't change a thing because situations don't affect your durability. Some people are able to stay completely off guard in fights because they're cocky, while others get really tense. That doesn't matter, what matters is your guard for durability. Because that all depends on how an individual chooses to process threats, as compared to reflexes which are just well... reflexive.

Also that cut wasn't really deep to human Elizabeth. Chandler knew it probably wouldn't do much as a whole, that's why he sent out two familiars. And of course the cut didn't leave a mark, she healed it. Healing doesn't affect durability, it just patches you up.

Again for speed: Ludoshel was neither in a state where he could react to an attack because his back was literally turned. Derieri could have literally attacked from any angle, but Ludoshel still processed it while being very cocky. Elizabeth can't even do that while facing her opponent, so again, Why does she get special treatment?

Again no, that's speculation. Chandler vs King and Gowther shows us that certain attacks affect the body differently. The combined attack they used didn't really do much damage to his body, but it destroyed his spirit stat. This is definite proof that specialized attacks work better in certain situations, which elizabeth did. Her attack was designed for the job, The others weren't. Not to mention the spirit effects bypassed the defenses because of its specialty while the physical barely did. So this further proves my case.

Her power level isn't vague. There's nothing vague about it. She's the supreme deity's daughter so they address her as such, but no one respects her power. What exactly was vague about her?

And no, I can't see that she performed just as well as Mel because No one saw the fight. That's just something you made up. How do you know that Mel, didn't take more damage, or that Mel did something different? Or that Elizabeth didn’t come running into the fight when she senses Mel was in danger? The only thing we saw was that they took one combined attack and both died. You can't gauge durability from a dead corpse. I could literally say that the two gods had tea with them before they killed them and no one would be able to disprove me because no one knows how the fight went. But it doesn't change the fact that it's still speculation. I don’t run off the speculations of others. We can’t draw conclusions when we haven’t seen 90% of the fight

 

[OtakuFreak]

Again you're missing the point.

Ludoshel, Sairel, and Tarmiel were also off their guards during that fight as well. All three of them were cocky and inattentive, but they did not get knocked out. Why should Elizabeth get special treatment? Did you not read that part that I purposely spent the majority of my focus on for that segment to draw the comparison?

I mean I've been fighting/ sparring with others for over two years and I can assure you that the antics that the 4AA pulled would've put them in the same risk as Elizabeth for being knocked out. In a fight if you're off your guard your body is more susceptible to damage due to shock and being overall relaxed. Elizabeth was off her guard and so were the other four AA. But for the last time only one of them got KO'ed in the exact situation. The fact that she was negoating doesn't change a thing because situations don't affect your durability. Some people are able to stay completely off guard in fights because they're cocky, while others get really tense. That doesn't matter, what matters is your guard for durability. Because that all depends on how an individual chooses to process threats, as compared to reflexes which are just well... reflexive.

Also that cut wasn't really deep to human Elizabeth. Chandler knew it probably wouldn't do much as a whole, that's why he sent out two familiars. And of course the cut didn't leave a mark, she healed it. Healing doesn't affect durability, it just patches you up.

Again for speed: Ludoshel was neither in a state where he could react to an attack because his back was literally turned. Derieri could have literally attacked from any angle, but Ludoshel still processed it while being very cocky. Elizabeth can't even do that while facing her opponent, so again, Why does she get special treatment?

Again no, that's speculation. Chandler vs King and Gowther shows us that certain attacks affect the body differently. The combined attack they used didn't really do much damage to his body, but it destroyed his spirit stat. This is definite proof that specialized attacks work better in certain situations, which elizabeth did. Her attack was designed for the job, The others weren't. Not to mention the spirit effects bypassed the defenses because of its specialty while the physical barely did. So this further proves my case.

Her power level isn't vague. There's nothing vague about it. She's the supreme deity's daughter so they address her as such, but no one respects her power. What exactly was vague about her?

And no, I can't see that she performed just as well as Mel because No one saw the fight. That's just something you made up. How do you know that Mel, didn't take more damage, or that Mel did something different? Or that Elizabeth didn’t come running into the fight when she senses Mel was in danger? The only thing we saw was that they took one combined attack and both died. You can't gauge durability from a dead corpse. I could literally say that the two gods had tea with them before they killed them and no one would be able to disprove me because no one knows how the fight went. But it doesn't change the fact that it's still speculation. I don’t run off the speculations of others. We can’t draw conclusions when we haven’t seen 90% of the fight

I'm not giving Elizabeth special treatment. I'm merely stating that she might have been able to dodge or block the punch from Derriere if not taken off-guard. That doesn't take anything away from the Archangels being physically superior to Elizabeth.

The cut was still significant; regardless if it was specifically deep or not.

Once again I'm not giving Elizabeth special treatment. I'm not denying Ludoshel is faster than her in terms of speed; I'm just explaining that we haven't seen much of this skill so we can't draw much conclusion.

What I was trying to explain with the idea of ''Purification > Offense'' is the fact that both abilities will use the same amount of magical power. Purification will not be stronger magically (in terms of PL) than offensive power. These abilities just have different end goals when used. Purification will obviously purify the enemy while offensive ability will harm or cause damage to the enemy. King & Gowther's attack was strong enough to affect Chandler; it bypassed his defences but that wouldn't affect him once he unleashed his true power - because it lacks the power behind it. That's what I'm saying here; regardless if the attack is purification or offensive ability; unless it has the raw strength or power behind it - it will surely fail. If purification was stronger then Ludoshel would've immediately switched tactics and used an ability that could've purified them instead of keep launching offensive attacks. Before you give me ''He wanted to kill them; not purify them'' - we clearly saw that once they were purified they were unconscious; and easily kill-able.

There isn't any definite proof that purification is specifically superior to offensive ability against Demons - there's no statement or hints/tips that suggest this; there is only speculation - and since we're going off conclusive feats that have happened in the manga; you can't use this as an argument. The same as I can't use the Gods vs Elizabeth as an item to support her physical strength; because it isn't conclusive.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I'm not giving Elizabeth special treatment. I'm merely stating that she might have been able to dodge or block the punch from Derriere if not taken off-guard. That doesn't take anything away from the Archangels being physically superior to Elizabeth.

The cut was still significant; regardless if it was specifically deep or not.

Once again I'm not giving Elizabeth special treatment. I'm not denying Ludoshel is faster than her in terms of speed; I'm just explaining that we haven't seen much of this skill so we can't draw much conclusion.

What I was trying to explain with the idea of ''Purification > Offense'' is the fact that both abilities will use the same amount of magical power. Purification will not be stronger magically (in terms of PL) than offensive power. These abilities just have different end goals when used. Purification will obviously purify the enemy while offensive ability will harm or cause damage to the enemy. King & Gowther's attack was strong enough to affect Chandler; it bypassed his defences but that wouldn't affect him once he unleashed his true power - because it lacks the power behind it. That's what I'm saying here; regardless if the attack is purification or offensive ability; unless it has the raw strength or power behind it - it will surely fail. If purification was stronger then Ludoshel would've immediately switched tactics and used an ability that could've purified them instead of keep launching offensive attacks. Before you give me ''He wanted to kill them; not purify them'' - we clearly saw that once they were purified they were unconscious; and easily kill-able.

There isn't any definite proof that purification is specifically superior to offensive ability against Demons - there's no statement or hints/tips that suggest this; there is only speculation - and since we're going off conclusive feats that have happened in the manga; you can't use this as an argument. The same as I can't use the Gods vs Elizabeth as an item to support her physical strength; because it isn't conclusive.

Well personally I saw it as special treatment because people would often say "Well that doesn't count for Elizabeth because she wasn't on her guard." Meanwhile the 4AA do the same thing and people ignore that for the sake of Elizabeth. Might've doesn't matter. She couldn't do it, but the 4AA could. By basic power scaling from their off guard tactics they are better. Scaling is scaling. Elizabeth failed in the same situation, the 4AA succeeded. There's nothing more to it.
If the 4AA can surpass Elizabeth's physical abilities while off guard, then they can also do it while on guard. It doesn't make sense for Elizabeth to get a credit boost because she's on guard, but the same doesn't apply to the 4AA.

As for the cut it's a cut. The human head has tons of blood vessels where she was slashed at. It wasn't really much of a deep cut because Chandler knew one familiar wasn't enough to even kill a human

And it's not a matter of purification> offense it's more of one ability is the right tool for a certain situation. One does not need the same amount of power because it works easier. For example the combo attack of king and gowther. It had the same power backing it, but physically it did nothing, but spiritually it did more. This shows that it's a lot easier for one to work over the other. The proof is in this example.

Same power, physically it did less. Spiritually it did more. So we can't gague Elizabeth's power in this comparison because one aspect clearly can do more with less. Chandler's form doesn't matter at this case because it doesn't change the numbers. In a proportion they would go down, but the effects are still the same. Bee venom will kill an ant, but not a human. This doesn't change the fact that venom still operates in a certain way, it's just not effective on humans. If Chandler powered up, King and Gowther's attack wouldn't do much, but the fact is by numeric calculation, no matter how small, physical damage was less and spiritual damage was more.
Ludoshel's attack might've taken 100% of his magic power to do something, while Elizabeth's might have only required 50% because it's attacking something different. Yes, power is required, but the amount needed changes drastically

Lastly, Ludoshel was opposed to purification because he wanted them dead. Even while Elizabeth was doing it he still opposed the idea.

 

[kkck]

As far as elizabeth's speed goes... Why would she be slow? She managed to keep up with demon mark meliodas, dolor and gloxinia when heading towards the battle. There is no reason for us to think she isn't fast. Going by the flyers we have seen so far, their speed relies on magic not their physical prowess. It's hard to say how fast goddess elizabeth is of course however what she has shown is that she can easily keep up with commandment level threats. How that would work out in combat is slightly different of course though.

And purifying not being evidence... Come on, purification is one of the magics that the manga has shown works within the constraints of PL. It is true some light based spells have a "super effective" quality against demons but even then PL makes a huge difference. Hendricksen and zaratras saw how futile purge was against fraudrin and zaratras' response to that was basically to pour every ounce of his 1000 magic pl into a massive purge which barely managed to draw fraudrin out. Clearly PL played a factor here. None of elizabeth's purification feats are even vaguely plausible unless she has monstrous PL to back her up. Goddess elizabeth PL is at a minimum comparable to archangels... And her current power is enough to easily purify the lower tier of commandments meaning her power is at least somewhere close to that tier.

As for elizabeth lacking leadership skills... How can a reasonable case be made for something this astonishingly absurd? Within the context of the manga elizabeth has been getting people to follow her basically from day 1. Day 2 if we start counting from where diane started following her rather than meliodas. And this isn't even the helpless princess elizabeth, this is goddess elizabeth with 100 other lives worth of experience and the power to easily purify commandments. It's absurd to suggest elizabeth doesn't have leadership skills when everywhere she goes people willingly follow her against any logic. And they follow her because of who she is, not because she is a princess or a goddess... There is a reason meliodas bragged to ban that elizabeth talked a bloodthirsty army of soul devouring demons out of destroying a human settlement.

 

[sobreno]

As far as elizabeth's speed goes... Why would she be slow? She managed to keep up with demon mark meliodas, dolor and gloxinia when heading towards the battle. There is no reason for us to think she isn't fast. Going by the flyers we have seen so far, their speed relies on magic not their physical prowess. It's hard to say how fast goddess elizabeth is of course however what she has shown is that she can easily keep up with commandment level threats. How that would work out in combat is slightly different of course though.

And purifying not being evidence... Come on, purification is one of the magics that the manga has shown works within the constraints of PL. It is true some light based spells have a "super effective" quality against demons but even then PL makes a huge difference. Hendricksen and zaratras saw how futile purge was against fraudrin and zaratras' response to that was basically to pour every ounce of his 1000 magic pl into a massive purge which barely managed to draw fraudrin out. Clearly PL played a factor here. None of elizabeth's purification feats are even vaguely plausible unless she has monstrous PL to back her up. Goddess elizabeth PL is at a minimum comparable to archangels... And her current power is enough to easily purify the lower tier of commandments meaning her power is at least somewhere close to that tier.

As for elizabeth lacking leadership skills... How can a reasonable case be made for something this astonishingly absurd? Within the context of the manga elizabeth has been getting people to follow her basically from day 1. Day 2 if we start counting from where diane started following her rather than meliodas. And this isn't even the helpless princess elizabeth, this is goddess elizabeth with 100 other lives worth of experience and the power to easily purify commandments. It's absurd to suggest elizabeth doesn't have leadership skills when everywhere she goes people willingly follow her against any logic. And they follow her because of who she is, not because she is a princess or a goddess... There is a reason meliodas bragged to ban that elizabeth talked a bloodthirsty army of soul devouring demons out of destroying a human settlement.

Managed to keep up? Dude, the speed ( that interest us ) here is fighting speed. Meliodas didn't go all out in travel speed.

Monstruous PL that no one stated with the balor eye? No one being impressed? Yeah right.

In leadership, it is clear that she has zero experience since the beginning. Meliodas followed her because he knows her and that she is his lover. The rest is due to her title ( princess of Liones ).
Re-read the first saga, Ban followed them because of Mel, same for Diane in that forest.
King followed them due to his Sister's request to protect Ban, and so one.

 

[kkck]

Managed to keep up? Dude, the speed ( that interest us ) here is fighting speed. Meliodas didn't go all out in travel speed.

Meliodas at that point still has well over 60k PL and was rushing enough that he activated his demon powers to fly. And the gang was initially far enough from the battlefield they didn't even notice the potentially hundreds of demon fighting. Without a substantial amount of power elizabeth wouldn't have been able to keep up at all here, she absolutely needs substantial PL to keep up. And even dolor-diane look like he is making at least some effort there. We are talking about people who can jump miles in a single jump (remember galan?). Even for something a small a keeping up elizabeth would need substantial power.

 

[sobreno]

Meliodas at that point still has well over 60k PL and was rushing enough that he activated his demon powers to fly. And the gang was initially far enough from the battlefield they didn't even notice the potentially hundreds of demon fighting. Without a substantial amount of power elizabeth wouldn't have been able to keep up at all here, she absolutely needs substantial PL to keep up. And even dolor-diane look like he is making at least some effort there. We are talking about people who can jump miles in a single jump (remember galan?). Even for something a small a keeping up elizabeth would need substantial power.

No, Battle speed is different from travel speed, everyone knows that in shonen.
Elizabeth's speed is pathetic compared to Meliodas, Meliodas has several speed feat throughout this manga which put her into shame. Meliodas didn't go full speed, same as to how Goku fly with his friend without going all out.

What I need is battle speed, speed able to blitz your opponent without him noticing a single thing, reaction speed etc.

 

[Rigel]

We have seen that the demons have their own magic and still have the commandments.

The goddesses have so far not shown any magic of their own, but the Supreme Deity is able to use various spells. Being an exception within the Clan itself. Elizabeth being her daughter and having no grace could come to have her own magic, which symbolizes her birthright as the daughter of the Supreme Deity.

If Nakaba is eager to exploit Elizabeth in this war by being more than a supporter, I believe that this magic fits her:

"In Christianity, the balance appears in many graves, moreover, it is the object insured by St. Michael, the Archangel of judgment, an object destined to weigh good and bad deeds on earth." Similarly, in the Qur'an (holy book of Islam ), white and black stones are placed on the scale, designed to confer good and bad people.
The balance symbolizes justice, right, balance, prudence and correct behavior. "

Elizabeth's magic could be inspired by the balance and follow with similar effects of Jugram's The Balance (Bleach). With some nerfs or not.

 

[Demonspeed]

We have seen that the demons have their own magic and still have the commandments.

The goddesses have so far not shown any magic of their own, but the Supreme Deity is able to use various spells. Being an exception within the Clan itself. Elizabeth being her daughter and having no grace could come to have her own magic, which symbolizes her birthright as the daughter of the Supreme Deity.

If Nakaba is eager to exploit Elizabeth in this war by being more than a supporter, I believe that this magic fits her:

"In Christianity, the balance appears in many graves, moreover, it is the object insured by St. Michael, the Archangel of judgment, an object destined to weigh good and bad deeds on earth." Similarly, in the Qur'an (holy book of Islam ), white and black stones are placed on the scale, designed to confer good and bad people.
The balance symbolizes justice, right, balance, prudence and correct behavior. "

Elizabeth's magic could be inspired by the balance and follow with similar effects of Jugram's The Balance (Bleach). With some nerfs or not.

Flash, Tornado and Ocean are their magics. It doesn't matter if the origin is the SD. Ludociel used spells too. There is no way the other Goddesses don't have magics, even Humans have them and Ark their equivalent of the PoD. IIRC, it's been said that Elizabeth awakened her magic already in the fan book but there is no name for it.

EDIT: We do know the magics of more Goddesses: Jenna and Zaneli.