Discussion Elizabeth

[Gut's is the man]

I like you.

 

[Gojo Satoru]

I like you.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2018 ---

Since no one cares about Elizabeth's feats and dismiss them how about we talk about who deserves to be her one and only

Mael or Meliodas

 

[Gut's is the man]

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2018 ---

Since no one cares about Elizabeth's feats and dismiss them how about we talk about who deserves to be her one and only

Mael or Meliodas

Mael. Meliodas is just a pervert who molests her.

Seriously, does no one bring up how aside cupping a feel, mel never says and talks about what he loves about her or how she won him over? He just says he loves her and not what he loves about her.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Mael. Meliodas is just a pervert who molests her.

Elizabeth isn't compatible with Mael considering she is a pacifist and he is hungry for demonic genocide.

Seriously, does no one bring up how aside cupping a feel, mel never says and talks about what he loves about her or how she won him over? He just says he loves her and not what he loves about her.

Huh? Why are you questioning Meliodas love for Elizabeth when he got cursed for her (basically), spent 3000 years with all of her life times, then became the Demon King just to break her curse?

 

[Gut's is the man]

Elizabeth isn't compatible with Mael considering she is a pacifist and he is hungry for demonic genocide.



Huh? Why are you questioning Meliodas love for Elizabeth when he got cursed for her (basically), spent 3000 years with all of her life times, then became the Demon King just to break her curse?

I don't see liz complaining munch about the slaughter of demons.

Because he might have been brainwashed by the SD inorder to weaken the demon clan.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2018 ---

Elizabeth isn't compatible with Mael considering she is a pacifist and he is hungry for demonic genocide.



Huh? Why are you questioning Meliodas love for Elizabeth when he got cursed for her (basically), spent 3000 years with all of her life times, then became the Demon King just to break her curse?

Also I like how you completely side steped my points about Mel not saying what he likes about Liz or how Mael has legit reason to crush on her versus just say her on a battlefield, must bang.

 

[Gallon]

Sometimes I just get the urge to say that Elizabeth would be the ideal partner to have in real life. There, I said it.

 

[revo]

Are people seriously questioning Meliodas's love for Elizabeth? We don't know much of Mael's love for her but you have Meliodas confessing he loves both of her and her Goddess side, that if she dissapears from his life he wouldn't have reasons to live, claming all the time to protect her, etc etc.
And he's only a pervert to her? I get Mael is a good guy and he doesn't deserve what's happening to him, but to say his love for Elizabeth is better than Meliodas is a lot.
And I thought this theory of Meliodas being brainwashed already died, seems that not.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Sometimes I just get the urge to say that Elizabeth would be the ideal partner to have in real life. There, I said it.

What's that based on? Also I don't recall you nominating her as waifu of the year.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

Are people seriously questioning Meliodas's love for Elizabeth? We don't know much of Mael's love for her but you have Meliodas confessing he loves both of her and her Goddess side, that if she dissapears from his life he wouldn't have reasons to live, claming all the time to protect her, etc etc.
And he's only a pervert to her? I get Mael is a good guy and he doesn't deserve what's happening to him, but to say his love for Elizabeth is better than Meliodas is a lot.
And I thought this theory of Meliodas being brainwashed already died, seems that not.

where and when would the theory have died or proven that Mel's love for her isn't selfish in nature?

 

[Gallon]

What's that based on? Also I don't recall you nominating her as waifu of the year.

Everything. She's beautiful, she's caring, she's good - close to perfection.
Why didn't I nominate her? Easy, people don't want "good." People want quirky, perverted, badass females. Being incredibly good is boring and naive to most.

 

[revo]

where and when would the theory have died or proven that Mel's love for her isn't selfish in nature?

I think Meliodas's love being created for brainwashing would make a twist in most part of the series and Elizabeth's character would change completely. Nakaba hypes their relationship everytime he can, so honestly I don't see him with this type of writing.
As for his love being selfish, I've read your posts on your opinion on why you think his love is like that, I don't really think it that way, I think that debate is more about opinions than facts.

 

[Gut's is the man]

I think Meliodas's love being created for brainwashing would make a twist in most part of the series and Elizabeth's character would change completely. Nakaba hypes their relationship everytime he can, so honestly I don't see him with this type of writing.
As for his love being selfish, I've read your posts on your opinion on why you think his love is like that, I don't really think it that way, I think that debate is more about opinions than facts.

It'd also fit the originally tristan legend which the relationship of Liz and Mel is definitely based on. (It shares just about every element aside from caused by brainwashing which I wouldn;t be surprised is a twist about their relationship at the end of the series.)

 

[Undina]

It'd also fit the originally tristan legend which the relationship of Liz and Mel is definitely based on. (It shares just about every element aside from caused by brainwashing which I wouldn;t be surprised is a twist about their relationship at the end of the series.)

Last time I checked King Meliodas of Lyonesse and Isabelle/Elizabeth were never brainwashed into falling for each-other, they always had a normal relationship, if only for the fact that in some stories they had been originally enemies or one or another actual enemy kidnapped either him or her. Why are you assimilating their SON's fate into theirs when Nakaba went out of his way to write about the parents and their generation in the lore?! When will you understand that Meliodas=/=Tristan, they're father and son, instead?!

Ah now I remember what I said, you cut it off to the point that I forgot what I said and with a huge ass cover to everyone in a single wall of comment it confused me.
Well I mean what can she do? since she did say she cant do anything against him, so I assume she'll talk sense to a crazy bastard like him? I expect her to at least try and do something, not watch the whole damn thing unfold while her teammates are dying (well she is healing someone so I guess that counts as doin something) And I dont doubt Eli's powers, I know she can kick certain asses, thats why Im reacting this way, because I know she can do something.
Anyways thats enough of that.I usually just come in here to put my 2 cents on the chapter, not start a debate with anyone, too tiresome.

We were all already debating about Sar and Tar passing her their Graces, which she should be able to combine and should naturally be able to hold thanks to her being her mother's daughter(there's nothing in the story so far saying her ability/power has changed in anything besides the level of raw energy she can back it and its inherent skills with, ever since being turned into a human). Her moments of wondering what she could do for Mael never actually implied she doesn't have any ability she could try on him to help the effort against the abomination, it simply had her confused about what she can do to particularly save him(''his heart", "heal his psyche" more like). This could even imply that she's aware that if she gets serious, she has more chances at participating in his destruction rather than his salvation. Remember the situation with the alliance ark blades and how Elizabeth's is supposedly wider but jagged, less refined?! It always felt to me that it's because, due to the raw energy disparity Elizabeth( in a human body) may feel as opposed to what she had in her original body, she has less control over how effective her magic casting is in the present times. It follows what she also said about stopping Mel's regression, after his VS Escanor. She said "as I am now", meaning there was a time when she could do something even about AM Mel. That's why I think, when with her memory restored, she did want to try her lot before Escanor challenged him.

Nothing there that explains how the commandments could sense the demons but Mel couldnt.
What are you on about? Its not a crime to have a crush on someone, and there is nothing strange about emulating your idol/elder brother.
When was it said that Mael's envy of Mel enhanced his racism?
When has Mael ever done anything that implies he was worse than AM Meliodas?
It was clear that Mael was stalking Elizabeth? How? Beause he saw them kiss? Maybe he just went to have a chat with Elizabeth at a bad time.
So Mael is blamed for Ludo being a creep?
Nothing implies that Elizabeth wasnt still Mael's friend to the end, Sariel and Tarmiel were still her friends and they loved a good massacre.
Why is it cowardly to respect the man who raised you and taught you everything you know?
Maybe the reason Mael didnt confess was because Elizabeth already had a man.

You talk about hating Mael for what he became, but you have no idea what his personality is like, you're just assuming the worst in every situation. Sure, Mael hates demons like every other goddess, but other than that you've only seen him after he's been twisted by the commandments, and pissed at Gowther for what was done to him. And even despite his current mental state, he hasnt really done anything wrong, he's just trying to get revenge on Gowther, and rightly so. At the moment the only bad thing he's done is rough up King.
I thought i hated Mael too initially, but he turned out to be far less of an obsessive little bitch than i thought, he hasnt even given Elizabeth a second glance, everything Mael has done in the last few chapters has been quite reasonable.

Ok, so you're too lazy to read older posts, I'll say it to you once:

Spoiler: about Mel sensing/not sensing the hostages

I told Gut's that it's very possible that the AAs had the demon energy masked as long as Meliodas and the 3 other royals were around and let it out to beacon the TC in while the 4 were out on their mission for a little while then closed it off so as to not alert the Stigma royals before the demon army arrived. The TC were focused on finding their civilians' energy so that they could find them as well, so they noticed the "faint trace", while Mel didn't, cause he was searching for the troublemaking army at the human settlement. Back on their way he was surrounded by energy that should, after centuries of being a typical demon living by the belief humans, goddesses, fairies and giants were enemies and targets, have his senses confused, considering he has to live with them as allies and acknowledge them as such. In the camp, the energy of at least 1 AA, plenty of pretty powerful goddesses, fairies and giants, plus the humans, plus the energy leak being cut off again could've very well made the "faint trace" go unnoticed by Meliodas or unrecognised, due to the fact that again, he was surrounded by energy that he'd inherently consider unfriendly and had now to consider his own people's energy, whatever trace of it there was left in the air, as unfriendly. And whatever was that the AAs did to hide the hostages' presence, it was enough to even fool the main host of them, the FKF's own King, Gloxinia(and this guy was supposed to only make the "friendly demon energy" exception for Meliodas alone, yet he didn't figure out the AAs were making his own home into a torturous prison for the enemy's civilians.

Spoiler: about Mael's issues

I told another poster who claimed a crush is not a crime that it becomes a crime when it devolves into a sick obsession with someone you don't truly know, understand or respect for who and what they are, and when you expect them to fall for you even when you've grown up into someone actively fighting against all they care and stand for. And emulating your brother into becoming a careless mass murderer when the supposed "object" of you affections is advocating for the opposite goes to prove he may have cared about squinty, but he didn't give a rat's ass about Elizabeth as a real person(within context, I know she's a fictional character) and he went on to become exactly not only the guy who wouldn't ascend to the position of lover/spouse, but making himself worthy of getting kicked out even from his cozy place in the friendzone, although Elizabeth is too kind for that and she'd still try to convince him of giving demons a chance to show their worth in existence.
It hasn't been said, but context implies it well enough, that Meliodas getting with the girl he wanted made the demon=filthy trash analogy more accurate than ever for Mael, as his true flashback about Estarossa shows, he knew about Melizabeth since he was barely a teen.
AM Meliodas=fights a lot for the heck of it but is willing to appreciate even members of the races he thinks beneath him if they're interesting/powerful enough. Goes and opens his perspective to different approaches to the conflict even he despised and earns the respect and love of the woman whom he is now sharing various principles and ideals with.
The Angel of Death= "All demons are trash, all demons are filth, even/especially the dude making the girl I want but who doesn't want me back happy! Deathdemons!!!"
Why could she possibly not want the sweet little guy she shared an ideal or two with that turned into a narcissistic genocidal bastard representing everything she wanted to stop and who clearly didn't try at all to also look at the situation from her perspective?!? Why, oh, ever why?! It's a forever incomprehensible mystery./s
When one is shown, in repeated cases, hiding behind different things and watching something he clearly wasn't supposed to see, more over, that being the person who doesn't like them romantically with their actual lover, it makes them a stalker and a creep.

Spoiler: First behind a tree(that 1 I admit may have been an accidental run-in, due to twisted memory context)

, then at the very Sky theater they're at rn

Spoiler: seriously, those are different scenes

, so, he followed her around even though he knew she did have a man, but couldn't face her openly and argue against her relationship the way others(including his bro) did?! That makes him a cowardly creep and worthy younger brother of squinty whom he was emulating(another cowardly creep in his own way, cornering Elizabeth to insult Mel and her tastes in men, but sweating buckets about having to face him openly)
TL; DR We have canon instances of the AoD being too much of a coward to face Elizabeth about his feelings, no instance that showed he truly knew and respected her(the true foundation of actual romance), he chose his brother's path to becoming the thing Elizabeth had the strongest issues with so while she may have tried to still be his friend, he wasn't hers in the least; he was stalking her, creeping on her and her actual lover, expected his brother to solve their relationship for him; still gives me plenty of reasons to hate him. And it's ink on paper how Gowther lost an arm over an attack beam sent by retarded Mael straight at Elizabeth's head

Spoiler: The very first panel

He chose to absorb the 4th decree and go vindictive on everyone, that was the point of no return and no forgiveness from me.

Same, for all we learned about them as people. The mechanics and relations Elizabeth had with her clan remains largely unknown. Maybe because she isn't the heir and still child of the SD she was allowed freedom practically unsupervised and went where she pleased.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 9, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 9, 2018 ---

Asking that question is the same as asking where it was stated that Mel is the strongest demon besides the Demon King. Justify to me why we shouldn't assume Mel, who was Mael equal, the heir to the Demon King, and leader of the commandments, isn't the strongest demon other then the DK. In the same way we shouldn't assume Mael is second only to the SD in the Goddess clan.

Dude, back during the AHW and now we've had all 3 very present AAs either hounding on her to become a demon hater and participate in crushing the DC(so that's far from her being allowed the freedom and independence you're claiming she had),although Ludo also declared no one else but her mother had any form of authority over her, OR holding "Elizabeth-sama"'s train: siding with her, defending her validity, backhandedly praising her power, reminding Ludo to mind his manners around her. Even in the current chapter, Sariel was begging for forgiveness from the SD for 2 very different reasons: failing to save his fellow military high echelon AND failing to protect the clan's princess and SD's own daughter. Given what we know of the curses and Elizabeth being punished in concordance with the DC's own crown prince, it goes to show she is still highly important to the clan, exiled or not. Wait, didn't this happen before?! Oh, right, the DK cursed his brat instead of obliterating him for eternity cause he was trying to break his will and get him back?! Didn't Ludo basically say that if Elizabeth changes her ways mommy forgives everything and helps her out?! That sounds awfully restrictive for an inconsequential and powerless, even if royal, offspring.
And then Sar, again, stated that their princess's Ark was supposed to work even on her demon counterpart?! Oh, Sariel, but Meliodas confirms it still does , it's just that alongside having very high endurance, this other guy is also a natural holder of said Ark and the strongest of the 4 AAs. Yes, of the "4 AAs", phrasing you guys completely ignore when it's not about discussing "why, oh, why isn't Elizabeth one", although everyone knows she doesn't want to fight, like the actual AAs do. No one has ever stated that in those times Mael was the "only" one in the GC save the SD able to match Mel, last time I checked Gowther needed "a" goddess being able to match and replace what Mel was, the strongest warrior in the DC...Yet people still squabble that that proves anything about Elizabeth's power, when, for the nth time, we know she refuses to actually fight. So, Mael being the strongest AA proves zilch about her power value because her personality had her striving to balance both sides. She failed due to her methods, Gowther Sr succeeded with his.
And all this back and forth with any of the naysayers never answered my question:
"Who the flip matched the terror that was Mel before Ellie tamed him and the AoD came to be?" No, imaginary sisters of Elizabeth's don't count.
We shouldn't assume Mael is the 2nd to the SD because, even before he ever showed up in the story, there was already a bane to the DC, although not in killing machine form, and there was someone who preceded him chronologically, in making a difference on the battleground and neutralising the heir of the DK. That person was shown to have been Elizabeth
We shouldn't assume he's the 2nd most powerful "goddess" in the entire clan, when he's only ever stated to be the most powerful in a very limited group and when the only thing canonically so far stopping Elizabeth from being a member of is her infamous hate for violence, and when, despite all of her blasphemous and traitorous actions, followed by punishment, she's still acknowledged, over and over, as matchingly powerful to her royal status and for some mysterious reason, still deserving of all respect and deference from those military high echelons, as well as very important to the SD.
No one has, either, answered if any of those who've praised Elizabeth's "crazy" power have ever done it in a derisive way. Yet, this one instance when she displayed it(mind you, she was in her cursed, human form)

Spoiler: the skill appeared dual in element, just like combined Graces

So, a graceless daughter of the SD, even in her punished, exiled state, displays a skill comparable in theme and elemental coverage to her mother's(because the Graces are essentially her power manifested, lent to other people) and in her goddess form she displayed the largest number of wings ever shown on a goddess, save for the same mother, however temporary that was. Yet she's inconsequential and left to her devices. Even though Ludoshel literally screamed about how they simply went along with the appearance of letting her to her own devices for a while and couldn't bear it any longer. But hey, he had no power to stop her, only her mommy did and he admitted to it.
She keeps getting cryptic praises or backhanded ones from some of the most consequential characters in the story, yet her hype is invisible to you cause "muh soldiers being soldiers is all that matters, it is known" She gets a confrontation named literally a "fight" by the author where she does 90% of the work in far more complex ways than traditional fighting, but that doesn't matter either.
She gets hype from the DK who wouldn't even utter her name, that's how begrudgingly impressive she is to him, but doesn't forget to mention she is his counterpart's offspring, the 2 most powerful warriors in both clans praised her, but nah, it was only about the ideals and values the 2 didn't quite/at all agree with her on. Mmmyeah, just like Imma praise a communist for taking extreme measures to uphold their ideology. I will, he's just so pweetty.
So, tell me, where in the series does it say Mael was the only goddess known to the AHW clans who had the most power, next to the SD?! Where does it say that the AAs were more powerful than Elizabeth?! Where does it say that being a warrior, like Mel, didn't matter when Gowther selected his victim? Cause I remember the Gowthers specifically discussing that Mael being used would end the war. Yes, because he was very important, but did the GC still have Elizabeth and Mel around, anyway?!
How would "killing" the GC's princess instead while leaving her 2 crazy fans, also very vicious OP fighters behind to want more bloodshed make the GC use the CoED?! Taking him from the GC and putting him in the DC would only have restored the power balance with Meliodas and Elizabeth on the other side available to try and stop him, or kept the disparity, if Elizabeth was left to live with the knowledge her old friend was murdered...yet Jelamet said that Mel and Ellie died before Estarossa was "acknowledged", i.e. the brainwashing happened. What Gowther said about Mael's importance is irrelevant in establishing Elizabeth's lack of, since she:
1. Refused to get involved in the war the way Mel and Mael did;
2. She was dead, just like Mel, by the time Gowther had the chance to do anything about the war.
Unlike Mel and Ellie, Mael was still alive and available for the brainwash And very willing to scare the goddesses into using the CoED..

Well if Meliodas is the strongest Demon after the DK (And we know this to be true)it could only mean that Mael is the second strongest Goddess. Gowther said he manipulated Mael because he was the closest to a Meliodas equivalent.

If Meliodas is the second strongest Demon and Gowther replaces him with the closest goddess it would stand to reason that Mael is the second strongest Goddess.

Not really, Mael was the closest goddess to Mel's level he could use and a dedicated fighter as well. From how Jelamet recounted what happened in the AHW, Mel and Elizabeth had both died before Mael, the only memory alteration there seems to be "Estarossa" appearing just as Mel betrayed the demons and switched to the GC. We saw that Gowther had only escaped during the Indura ruckus, when Mel and Ellie were still alive, but it sounds like things escalated from there and it's not impossible that the whirls shown in the distance when Sr asks for Jr's assistance are actually the storm raging during the Gods' confrontation with Melizabeth.
That reasoning also only works when ignoring completely Elizabeth's existence, the fact that she was acknowledged as powerful, demanded of to fight, but persistently refused to and only shows that Mael was the strongest military(and the "hope" of the clan in the war, alluding to those with the same military and xenophobic visions like the AAs'), not the 2nd most powerful goddess regardless of their views. Most of the brainwashing was simplistic enough to flip around details and identities, not feelings, emotions or ideas/values. Implying that, even with his sacrifice, there was a limit to what Gowther could've changed in the main target to make it work.

Honestly this is a good question. I wonder if Liz was deemed unfit to succeed the SD from a young age and was generally ignored by the rest of the Clan and she grew up lacking the supervision Meliodas had.

Where on Earth do you even pull such ideas from?! Sariel just admitted that the 4 generals of the GC also had as duty looking after their princess(even during her cursed existence), he just confirmed they were supposed to acknowledge her status and protect her, like loyal elites serving her family. He stated she was still important to her mother and their failure at protecting her would also be unforgivable, just like the failure in saving the most powerful AA. So far, so good, the story places Elizabeth and Mael on equal grounds of importance, just in different ways; which leaves you with the sole excuse that Mael was not only extremely OP, he was also an established soldier, something Elizabeth refused to be, but was never stated to be inapt for. On the contrary.

If she was such a non-obessive free range parent. Why did she curse and kill Elizabeth just for getting with Mel.

If the gods are immortal why is the DK obsessed with making Mel the king.

Exactly for my point, she is the heir, mommy dearest wants to force her into her role and the GC philosophy, so she went for a similar route to her demon counterpart. You got Otaku all dizzy

Canon? Which chapter? Which page?
Sorry, I never saw any panel or bubble saying this. Where is it implied?
I'm not baiting or leading, I really just want answers.

I never saw any bubble claiming many things you guys do, like when most people talking about Mael and Mel in a comparison made it beyond clear they ignored the necessary military career and that Mael was only ever addressed as "strongest of the AAs", not the strongest of all goddesses save for the SD. The context made it clear it was all about finding Mel a contemporary military counterpart, but most of you forget Mael rose to power and renown after Mel's downfall started. Who kept the balance before Mael?! When the rest of the AAs clearly feared him?! Who stopped Mel and his forces plowing through the GC army till nothing but the TC(with Mel) and Masters and army vs the 3 AAs were left?!

How do we even know Elizabeth was heir to the throne ? It may not be by bloodline for the Goddesses

Like clearly she doesn’t have what it takes to run the Goddesses compared to Mel and the Demons

Look at the DK, he’s doing everything in his power to make Mel the next deity while the SD isn’t even attempting to associate with her own daughter or prep her up for being next in line LMFAO

The SD literally doesn’t give a fuck about anyone/anything at this point

Poor Elizabeth

This sounds very much like trolling, Elizabeth's literally shown stealing both fodder and elites from under the current DK's rule, both in the past and in her cursed state, half of the AAs are all "Elizabeth-sama" and even go against their directives to support her, the one AA who hates her guts begs, bargains demands and threatens(but only with the SD's retaliation, cause no one else has any authority over her) for her to align to their clan's ideology and crush the demons, the one AA whom you guys worship was said to have been praising her, also within a context debating power and influence and Sariel clearly said that he needed to be forgiven by the SD for failing to protect her daughter(no one expects any great love lost between mother and daughter, but that slaps you in the face with Elizabeth being important to the SD, and how that could otherwise be than the same way Mel is to the DK?!) The SD wasn't directly introduced yet, so you can't claim what she is or isn't trying to do, but I can claim I find it highly suspicious that we don't know yet who the very arrogant goddess talking through the Horn is and why she claims that all the people Mel cares about would leave him, nor what Elizabeth's mystery earring deal is, especially since it holds all the symbols representative of the GC and when we learned from Jelamet that there are still goddesses residing in the CR she was trying to summon it became apparent that the SD may very well be talking through the Horn from the CR.
There are still unsolved mysteries about Elizabeth, although chapter after chapter where she's involved, there's more and more insinuation that she holds just as much importance in the GC as Meliodas in the DC and that her power is that of a true royal goddess. The only difference that was ever made is that Mael covered what she refused to, proficiency as a military to compete with Mel in.
You go all "poor Elizabeth" after claiming she's not a match to Mel in leadership, even though she was shown to be in fact comparable to your "best boi" Idk how hard you were laughing, but what you caused me is painful, gut busting level laughter.

Wait.......

Are we really doubting Mael’s the strongest Angel ?

LITERALLY WHAT LMFAO ?

Wasn’t there awhole damn chapter confirming the Goddesses needed him just to maintain the power balance against the Demons ?

Like why do you guys keep nitpicking information and combing them with your headcannon just to make your fav character so better than they already are ?

Gowther mind fucked Mael, faked his death which literally caused his ENTIRE CLAN to commit SUPER SUICIDE because they knew for a fact they couldn’t win against the Demons

Like at this point it’s evident Ludociel and Elizabeth pale in comparison to whatever Mael was in the past

Oh yeah if Ludociel, Eli or any other angel were stronger, wouldn’t it makes sense for the SD give them “Sunshine” opposed to Mael who is apparently the weakest AA according to some of you guys logic ?

So it’s either the SD is an idiot or Mael was the strongest at base hence why he got the Strongest Grace

Like cmon, this whole “let’s lowball Mael” has become a meme at this point

Well, Elizabeth had that precise meme since before Mael was revealed, so it's only fair he got one too. The fanboys still prickle he's not the only one acknowledged.
Though she'd been presented as the bane of the DC and personally, the DK's, since way before that.
Nowhere in the series was Mael stated to have been the most powerful outside the AA group who were over and over represented as warrior parallels to Mel and the TC.
Yet we have a context regarding power and ability where it was stated that Mael, the most powerful of the AAs, was himself praising Elizabeth, and his ideas about "salvation" clearly tell us his praises weren't about her personality. His ideals went straight up against hers.
No one doubts he's the strongest AA, but that's exactly it, he was referred to as exactly that, no more. With heavy emphasis on his alignment to the "cause" and military activity in abundance. And he reached the AoD and "balancing" out level after Melizabeth was established and certainly, thanks to increasing doubts about his loyalties, after Meliodas started his downfall.
No one actually explained how the GC wasn't left but naked with only its AAs, till Mael got all big and powerful and blessed with a Grace, because Meliodas the midget terrorist and his TC and all the other military members of their clan were running wild. You make claims about how some people don't consider that clashes never happened evenly, but have you actually considered any scenario where all TC, despite their diverse PLs and talents, logically survived to the AAs, but lost members only when Mel was involved, not the AoD Mael(they didn't actively lose 1 friggin' TC to a fight with Mael, despite his reputation, so let me laugh at him like Cussack laughed at the human heroes inside Excalibur), at least the DC lost their crown prince to the GC's princess And 2 more TCs with that, wait, there goes the 3rd cause Mel and the "wench" and their new friends went to back up some measly humans. And then 1 TC finally fell when not only messing with the AoD and the "hope" of the GC but to fix the consequences of Elizabeth's, not Mael's actions. By the time Gowther Sr brainwashed Mael, ofc the Goddess Clan would use the CoED, their princess and the unwanted ally were already dead, so, lol, what? Mael was supposed to balance himself out? Well, Maelstarossa did "kill" Mael...like a dog. And then the only chance at balance was going to sleep, for everyone.
The SD was long ago confirmed to be an idiot, even if she's yet to officially utter a word for herself, she killed and cursed her own child, she adhered to the idea of genocide, she couldn't appreciate the solution to the war her daughter brought to her doorstep after going herself to face the strongest and vilest demon on the battlefront, whose reign of terror preceded her pet Mael by a quite a while. Should I continue?! But it wasn't stupid to not grant Elizabeth Sunshine if Elizabeth had inherent gifts of her own she was supposed to develop without mommy's interference and would've helped her just fine if she chose to apply them for violence.
No matter how you guys try to twist this around, the info revealed does nothing to state Mael was 2nd most powerful in the entire clan, he was only clearly the most powerful AA and arguably more powerful than Elizabeth at that point in her development, thanks to Sunshine.
There's nothing in this story going against Elizabeth standing to develop to her mother's level and then inherit the throne and the power to create, grant or take away Graces like Sunshine and spank The One and AM Mel to the edges of the universe.
So, why would she need a Grace in the first place?! Why is this argument even being made?

Mael has Sunshine?
Meliodas the greatest evil?
Pfffft get outta here, Elizabeth makes a massacre using peace

No, Elizabeth massacres the fandom by holding power and not using it in stupid ways like for killing people.
It's yet to be explained how she survived that first meeting with Meliodas who seemed to be in AM, and how she persuaded him to change his mind, and all that long before Mael got out of the corner goddesses like Sariel kept shoving him into.
So, excuse me if, although I admire Elizabeth's beauty and kind soul, I find them irrelevant against Mel before she managed to change his outlook.

If Elizabeth was really AA tier she would’ve contributed to the plan but she didn’t

If Elizabeth was being saved for bigger feats, she wouldn't have(she didn't participate), especially since it's been stated over and over that Elizabeth, as she is now, isn't at the level of her goddess incarnation. And the AAs and Derrieri already showed that they all planned to protect Elizabeth from getting any more hurt. No one forgot she's on a timer, but now Nakaba has different ideas.

 

[Seven777]

Ok, so you're too lazy to read older posts, I'll say it to you once:

Spoiler: about Mel sensing/not sensing the hostages

I told Gut's that it's very possible that the AAs had the demon energy masked as long as Meliodas and the 3 other royals were around and let it out to beacon the TC in while the 4 were out on their mission for a little while then closed it off so as to not alert the Stigma royals before the demon army arrived. The TC were focused on finding their civilians' energy so that they could find them as well, so they noticed the "faint trace", while Mel didn't, cause he was searching for the troublemaking army at the human settlement. Back on their way he was surrounded by energy that should, after centuries of being a typical demon living by the belief humans, goddesses, fairies and giants were enemies and targets, have his senses confused, considering he has to live with them as allies and acknowledge them as such. In the camp, the energy of at least 1 AA, plenty of pretty powerful goddesses, fairies and giants, plus the humans, plus the energy leak being cut off again could've very well made the "faint trace" go unnoticed by Meliodas or unrecognised, due to the fact that again, he was surrounded by energy that he'd inherently consider unfriendly and had now to consider his own people's energy, whatever trace of it there was left in the air, as unfriendly. And whatever was that the AAs did to hide the hostages' presence, it was enough to even fool the main host of them, the FKF's own King, Gloxinia(and this guy was supposed to only make the "friendly demon energy" exception for Meliodas alone, yet he didn't figure out the AAs were making his own home into a torturous prison for the enemy's civilians.

The Commandments would have arrived before Meliodas did if they were close enough to sense the demons but Mel wasnt.
Why would there being a mix of different races in stigma matter? Didnt confuse the commandments, they could still sense such an abundant energy leak.
King didnt know about the demons being stored, not Gloxinia, and there is no reason for either to be able to sense them in the first place, they're not demons.

I told another poster who claimed a crush is not a crime that it becomes a crime when it devolves into a sick obsession with someone you don't truly know, understand or respect for who and what they are, and when you expect them to fall for you even when you've grown up into someone actively fighting against all they care and stand for.

Sick obsession? Wtf? He falls in love with a girl who was nice to him and now all of a sudden he's some sicko? Mael became a hero of the clan, nothing strange about him expecting a girl to notice him for it. Was it foolish for him to not understand her stance on it? Sure, doesnt make him a bad dude though. And nothing suggests he knew Elizabeth's stance on demonkind, his love for her clearly stems from her being one of the only two people who didnt laugh at him for being weak, but her being kind to him doesnt mean they were close enough to start sharing ideals. He was going through a rough time and Elizabeth was kind to him, so he developed a crush based on that kindness alone, nothing strange about it.

And emulating your brother into becoming a careless mass murderer when the supposed "object" of you affections is advocating for the opposite goes to prove he may have cared about squinty, but he didn't give a rat's ass about Elizabeth as a real person(within context, I know she's a fictional character) and he went on to become exactly not only the guy who wouldn't ascend to the position of lover/spouse, but making himself worthy of getting kicked out even from his cozy place in the friendzone, although Elizabeth is too kind for that and she'd still try to convince him of giving demons a chance to show their worth in existence.

Oh please, Elizabeth killed infinitely more people just by falling in love with Meliodas. And why wouldnt Mael emulate his brother? His mentor, his idol, the man who raised him and taught him him how to live. You're acting like he should for some reason take Elizabeth's ideals over Ludociel's, ridiculous, only a lovestruck fool would respect the wishes of some girl he likes, more than the wishes of the man who raised him.

It hasn't been said, but context implies it well enough, that Meliodas getting with the girl he wanted made the demon=filthy trash analogy more accurate than ever for Mael, as his true flashback about Estarossa shows, he knew about Melizabeth since he was barely a teen.

Demons=Filth is the company motto in the goddess clan, he and every other goddess already thought that long before MelXEli became a thing.

AM Meliodas=fights a lot for the heck of it but is willing to appreciate even members of the races he thinks beneath him if they're interesting/powerful enough. Goes and opens his perspective to different approaches to the conflict even he despised and earns the respect and love of the woman whom he is now sharing various principles and ideals with.

Sparing people he thinks is interesting doesnt make him less evil, it makes him more selfish. Dont know how Eli and Mel fell in love, but when Mel has emotions he isnt AM Meliodas anymore.

The Angel of Death= "All demons are trash, all demons are filth, even/especially the dude making the girl I want but who doesn't want me back happy! Deathdemons!!!"
Why could she possibly not want the sweet little guy she shared an ideal or two with that turned into a narcissistic genocidal bastard representing everything she wanted to stop and who clearly didn't try at all to also look at the situation from her perspective?!? Why, oh, ever why?! It's a forever incomprehensible mystery./s

Jesus christ, your acting like Mael is somehow obligated to adopt Elizabeth's ideals just because he loved her, he isnt. Why should Mael turn his back on everything the society he was born into stands for, everything his mentor told and taught him, just because the girl he wants to get with holds the occasional protest? Did she ever come to him personally and say stop killing demons? I havent seen it. Barring that there is no reason Mael should think Eli would have a problem with him slaying demons when her lover does it too.

When one is shown, in repeated cases, hiding behind different things and watching something he clearly wasn't supposed to see, more over, that being the person who doesn't like them romantically with their actual lover, it makes them a stalker and a creep.

Spoiler: First behind a tree(that 1 I admit may have been an accidental run-in, due to twisted memory context)

, then at the very Sky theater they're at rn

Spoiler: seriously, those are different scenes

, so, he followed her around even though he knew she did have a man, but couldn't face her openly and argue against her relationship the way others(including his bro) did?! That makes him a cowardly creep and worthy younger brother of squinty whom he was emulating(another cowardly creep in his own way, cornering Elizabeth to insult Mel and her tastes in men, but sweating buckets about having to face him openly)
TL; DR We have canon instances of the AoD being too much of a coward to face Elizabeth about his feelings, no instance that showed he truly knew and respected her(the true foundation of actual romance), he chose his brother's path to becoming the thing Elizabeth had the strongest issues with so while she may have tried to still be his friend, he wasn't hers in the least; he was stalking her, creeping on her and her actual lover, expected his brother to solve their relationship for him; still gives me plenty of reasons to hate him.

He watched her sure, doesnt mean he was following her though, he was clearly surprised in the second page. As for him being too much of a coward to face Elizabeth about his feeling? Where? Because he accepted Ludo's help? Ludo knows her better, nothing wrong with wanting a wing man.

And it's ink on paper how Gowther lost an arm over an attack beam sent by retarded Mael straight at Elizabeth's head

Spoiler: The very first panel

He chose to absorb the 4th decree and go vindictive on everyone, that was the point of no return and no forgiveness from me.

So? He is right to want revenge and he already had 3 commandments in him at the time.

 

[OtakuFreak]

It'd also fit the originally tristan legend which the relationship of Liz and Mel is definitely based on. (It shares just about every element aside from caused by brainwashing which I wouldn;t be surprised is a twist about their relationship at the end of the series.)

Elizabeth brainwashing Meliodas implies:

A) Their love isn't authentic

B) Elizabeth is powerful enough to brainwash the future Demon King to the point of betrayal and 3000 years of love. Guessing you don't like this option since it suggests that Elizabeth's magic is powerful enough to have a lasting impact on Meliodas.

C) Would undermine the relationship and impact of their relationship which nullifies a lot of the plot points. The whole Elizabeth vs Meliodas controversery in this war would be redundant.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Meliodas was cursed by his father, the Demon King with eternal life for loving Elizabeth and betraying the Demon Clan which resulted in the death of two commandments and the destruction of the demonic realm.

Elizabeth was cursed by her mother, the Supreme Goddess with perpetual reincarnation for loving Meliodas and saving the lives of the enemy, Monspeet and Derriere as Indura.

In chapter 224, this is revealed, but it's also shown that Elizabeth practically figured out that she and Meliodas were cursed by the Gods. But how?

I could understand her saying that her and Meliodas were cursed, but she understood the full conditions, criteria and requirements to break the curse. Wouldn't this take experimentation or decades of experience with the curse to understand? Elizabeth's curse not only reincarnates her, but makes her always meet Meliodas and fall in love, how did she know this?

I'm puzzled by the fact that Meliodas didn't even conceive the idea of being cursed by his father, he just presumed that Elizabeth died and he didn't. In fact, when he was cursed he almost didn't believe it.

So how did Elizabeth figure out the curses? I think it could be:

A) Plot.

B) Elizabeth anticipated that her mother would curse her as a punishment (Ludoshel told her that the SG would not forgive her, and she was accepting to not apologise for her actions) and presumed this applied to herself and Meliodas. But how did she understand the full conditions of both curse? Even if one child knew the powers of their parent and what they are capable of, Elizabeth figured out what the Demon King's curse does.

C) Elizabeth being reincarnated for the first time, cursed, gave her an indication of what the curse might do. After all, Elizabeth by "fate" met Meliodas, fell in love, and awakened her 3 day life span (which shouldn't be figured out at the first reincarnation) because of her memories. I wouldn't say Elizabeth isn't smart or intelligent to a degree, she seems fairly knowledgeable, so she might've just connected the dots. Unlike Meliodas, Kind of difficult to figure out you're immortal if you never die

D) Other - explain below

Poll above for votes

 

[Arjuna]

"Connected the Dots"

 

[OtakuFreak]

"Connected the Dots"

Makes sense, except it doesn't explain how she knew that she was even going to die after awakening her memories, and when.

Connected the dots would mean Elizabeth is 900 IQ since I'm pretty sure none predicted that she would did after 3 days

 

[Arjuna]

Makes sense, except it doesn't explain how she knew that she was even going to die after awakening her memories, and when.

Connected the dots would mean Elizabeth is 900 IQ since I'm pretty sure none predicted that she would did after 3 days

She probably knows what her mother can do and what her abilities are.She knew that she reincarnated so yeah she can connect the dots.

 

[revo]

I think that between her death and the brith of her first life the SD somehow made contact and talked with her, like the last interaction between them (that would be really cool actually).
That, or when in her first reicarnation she started to remember the memories of her first life, her mother put that information in her mind.

 

[OtakuFreak]

I think that between her death and the brith of her first life the SD somehow made contact and talked with her, like the last interaction between them (that would be really cool actually).
That, or when in her first reicarnation she started to remember the memories of her first life, her mother put that information in her mind.

It would be an interesting premise if the Supreme Goddess visited Elizabeth at each of her life times, just like how the Demon King and Meliodas talk when he dies and is sent to purgatory.

Question is, has Elizabeth Liones talked to her mother yet, or is it coming up?