Discussion Elizabeth

[Commanderaxe]

Didnt the quote Demonspeed rustled up say wings=rank, not power? I mean Galand is the same rank as Derriere, doesnt mean he's as powerful though. Elizabeth should be within AA range, especially her magic, doesnt mean she'd be able to match any of them in a fight though.

Oh shit wait was it really rank? This would explain a lot tbh, I gotta go back and check that shit

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 22, 2018 ---

Pssst you guys wanna hear a secret???

WINGS DON'T LITERALLY INDICATE POWER

When Mael was fodder he had bigger wings than tarmiel

Nerobasta has the same wings as fodder goddesses that are comparable to gray demons (and she's much stronger than them)

Honestly this is just stupid by this point.

He needs to be more specific on the wings and it's ranges. Not to mention different panels seem to make certain wings look bigger than usual. We get that shes above the average goddess but it doesnt hone in on her specific level

 

[Gojo Satoru]

Someone find the most reliable translation of the source where Nakaba-sensei stated the fact on the Goddesses Wings.

Even IF he were talking about rank rather than power level it just makes the situation all the more confusing because we haven't had many Goddesses introduced and from what we've seen all 2 winged Goddesses are fodder and can only defeat Red/Gray Demons.

The 4-winged Goddesses and Tarmiel (we know his situation in power is the same it's just split in 6 tiny wings we all know if you combined the first 2 pair you'd get 1 pair about the same size as Sariel) are all Archangels.

 

[HereNThere]

Someone find the most reliable translation of the source where Nakaba-sensei stated the fact on the Goddesses Wings.

Short of the official translation, which I haven't seen translate the questions, the FKS' quote that Demonspeed linked is the most reliable.

 

[Shutensatsu]

WHYYYY ARE WE STILL ON THIS DISCUSSIOOOOON. Both sides can be a bit bias on certain shit and both sides heavily aggrandize things to their favor but i'll try to keep things as unbiased and objective as possible

No Elizabeth is definitely not below 50k.

Yes Elizabeth was certainly in trouble against Chandlers minion.

Yes she has poor durability

Yes she did force the Indura's to amp themselves even harder.(she has high magic)

No her ark wasn't powerful enough to hurt Mael(do with that as you will)

Yes most of her praises are towards her white magic with the exception of her 1 ark praise

This is what we know. Based on all this, can we say she'd beat her fellow AA in combat? No. Can we saw that we know what she's fully capable of in a fight? Well no, as we havent actually seen it.

Does she have more magic than her fellow AA's? Can her magic keep up with their graces? Can she dodge their attacks? Can she hit Ludociel in combat? Can she dodge Ludociel in combat? Can she break through Sariels barrier? Can she damage Tarmiel? We can't f*cking answer these damn questions with absolute certainty.

Elizabeth needs more feats. I can't stretch that enough. Until we get these feats, then no, she cannot do any of those things above, and there's no scan we can pull from the manga to support that. Will there be? Perhaps. Is she fodder? Well of course not. Her magic affected Indura's and caused a massive energy surge. And of course there's the little things that others like to use like the Derriere feat or Melascula(Melascula was heavily defeated and paralyzed), while Derriere simply stood there like a f*ckin idiot so those feats are a bit circumstantial. But yea shes not fodder. That's for Howzer's tier. Let's just see how she pans out in the next few chapters

Dude, it’s mostly the Eli squad that just can’t let it go.

The flashback heavily implies Ludo was the champion of the clan.

When Mael surpassed him he became the new champ, “The strongest of the four archangels”, the only one to rival Meliodas, and the most important man in the war because he kept his team afloat according to Gowther.

Gowther based his whole plan off of removing the goddesses strongest fighter and giving it to the demons.

We still have Eli squad members writing essays on why Eli rivals AM Mel even at this stage in the manga.

That is completely off the table. It shouldn’t even be controversial and require debate. It just isn’t true. Fighting Mel was Mael’s job.

Now as for Ludo I think it’s completely clear he’s stronger than her too. The flashback which heavily implies he was the former strongest goddess, the fact that he is clearly above Tarmiel/Sariel, as well as the fact that he was the actually the only one to not be completely overpowered by the Indura’s reinforces that. Tarmiel/Sariel were oneshot. Eli was going to be overpowered had they not helped. It was literally stated. Ludo said he was going to get serious too since they want to take it all the way. Now could he have done something against them? We don’t know, but Derrerie could not beat him even with two hits, and he implied he had more power, so the people saying the Indura fodderized him are talking out of their asses. They fodderized Tarmiel/Sariel and Eli lost alone. Ludo did not lose yet to them. But since it was never directly stated he was the former strongest, you can make a argument here that she rivals him at 100K. Like I said I think it’s clear she doesn’t at all, but you can argue for it.

The best the Eli squad should be hoping for realistically with the info we have is like Tarmiel/Sariel Level. It’s entirely possible she’s on their level. I don’t think she is. They have better feats than her, better durability, magic power, and actual physical capability unlike her, but this I can live with as a realistic argument.

Maybe she does have the most powerful ark in the clan. Maybe she’s the best healer, and purifier. None of that makes her the strongest. She can be all those things and still be weaker than the AA’s. She’d be like Monspiet who is the best manipulator of darkness in the clan but not the strongest demon.

She can even have higher magic than all of the AA’s and still be weaker than all of them because they have actually physical capability, and magic too.

The squad members arguing that Eli rivals Mel, and was the strongest of the clan are being ridiclous. That just clearly isn’t true in any capacity.

The squad members that say she is 100K along with Ludo, I guess can formulate some sort of argument, only because it was never flat out stated he was the former strongest goddess. But it’s clearly heavily heavily implied that it used to be him. Not Eli.

The squad members that are arguing that she is Tarmiel/Sariel level are being realistic. I think she’s definitely weaker than either personally, but I can live with this.

If they all had real expectations, the forum fights wouldn’t happen all the time.

But whenever the war comes up, or you’re talking about demons vs goddesses, or AA’s vs commandmnets you always inevitably get:

WHY ARE YOU NOT INCLUDING ELI IN YOUR DISCUSSION. SHE’S THE SD’S DAUGHTER AND THE PARALLEL TO MELIODAS. SHE’S EASILY THE STRONGEST GODDESS!!!!!!!

DID YOU NOT SEE MELIODAS WAS NEAR DEATH WHEN SHE SLAPPED HIM?

And when somebody says something like that it’s going to start a fight, when the manga doesn’t support that at all.

 

[T25]

Dude, it’s mostly the Eli squad that just can’t let it go.

The flashback heavily implies Ludo was the champion of the clan.

When Mael surpassed him he became the new champ, “The strongest of the four archangels”, the only one to rival Meliodas, and the most important man in the war because he kept his team afloat according to Gowther.

Gowther based his whole plan off of removing the goddesses strongest fighter and giving it to the demons.

We still have Eli squad members writing essays on why Eli rivals AM Mel even at this stage in the manga.

That is completely off the table. It shouldn’t even be controversial and require debate. It just isn’t true. Fighting Mel was Mael’s job.

Now as for Ludo I think it’s completely clear he’s stronger than her too. The flashback which heavily implies he was the former strongest goddess, the fact that he is clearly above Tarmiel/Sariel, as well as the fact that he was the actually the only one to not be completely overpowered by the Indura’s reinforces that. Tarmiel/Sariel were oneshot. Eli was going to be overpowered had they not helped. It was literally stated. Ludo said he was going to get serious too since they want to take it all the way. Now could he have done something against them? We don’t know, but Derrerie could not beat him even with two hits, and he implied he had more power, so the people saying the Indura fodderized him are talking out of their asses. They fodderized Tarmiel/Sariel and Eli lost alone. Ludo did not lose yet to them. But since it was never directly stated he was the former strongest, you can make a argument here that she rivals him at 100K. Like I said I think it’s clear she doesn’t at all, but you can argue for it.

The best the Eli squad should be hoping for realistically with the info we have is like Tarmiel/Sariel Level. It’s entirely possible she’s on their level. I don’t think she is. They have better feats than her, better durability, magic power, and actual physical capability unlike her, but this I can live with as a realistic argument.

Maybe she does have the most powerful ark in the clan. Maybe she’s the best healer, and purifier. None of that makes her the strongest. She can be all those things and still be weaker than the AA’s. She’d be like Monspiet who is the best manipulator of darkness in the clan but not the strongest demon.

She can even have higher magic than all of the AA’s and still be weaker than all of them because they have actually physical capability, and magic too.

The squad members arguing that Eli rivals Mel, and was the strongest of the clan are being ridiclous. That just clearly isn’t true in any capacity.

The squad members that say she is 100K along with Ludo, I guess can formulate some sort of argument, only because it was never flat out stated he was the former strongest goddess. But it’s clearly heavily heavily implied that it used to be him. Not Eli.

The squad members that are arguing that she is Tarmiel/Sariel level are being realistic. I think she’s definitely weaker than either personally, but I can live with this.

If they all had real expectations, the forum fights wouldn’t happen all the time.

But whenever the war comes up, or you’re talking about demons vs goddesses, or AA’s vs commandmnets you always inevitably get:

WHY ARE YOU NOT INCLUDING ELI IN YOUR DISCUSSION. SHE’S THE SD’S DAUGHTER AND THE PARALLEL TO MELIODAS. SHE’S EASILY THE STRONGEST GODDESS!!!!!!!

DID YOU NOT SEE MELIODAS WAS NEAR DEATH WHEN SHE SLAPPED HIM?

And when somebody says something like that it’s going to start a fight, when the manga doesn’t support that at all.

Undina had a very nice post regarding your own comments regarding Eli and zel. I had wished to see how you regarded those points. However that is up to you.

 

[Seven777]

So Elizabeth slapping Meliodas, wasn't him being off-guard then?

Fantastic. Meliodas in his 142k demon form is susceptible to a slap from a human, as he couldn't dodge Elizabeth's.

Yep, though he obviously let her slap him

Yes, he was off-guard.

He was surprised certainly, wasnt "off-guard" though

Elizabeth kept up with a second demon mark Meliodas.

So did Gloxinia, who is weaker than Derriere.

He's wayy stronger than Derriere physically.

How is friggin Gloxinia physically way stronger than Derriere?

So, to me, Goddess Elizabeth is faster than Derriere.

Makes absolutely no sense.

She probably and most certainly can.

Good, good, now we just have to wait for it to happen.

She's just too pacifistic to dodge.

lol

-She kept up with a second demon mark Meliodas when flying.

So did Gloxinia

-She was able to react fast enough and stop Mael's fall.

So? Even i could do that.

-Gloxinia, who's strength stat is literally 0, is incredibly nimble and somewhat able to keep up with Meliodas. Heck, without his spirit spear he dodged like 3-5 attacks from Meliodas consecutively. And since Elizabeth physical stat is not 0. I'm assuming she can do that and even more.

Says who? Gloxinia is a warror, like King, Elizabeth is a pacifist who as far as we can tell, has absolutely no combat experience.

Yes, it is a double standard.

How? I'm getting pretty tired of you accusing me of this, do you here me calling you a hypocrite?

I really don't know why we are arguing about this, Elizabeth was completely off-guard against Derriere.

So was Mael when King cheap-shotted him from behind last chapter, did he get K.O'd?

You can turn your powers off, but you can only reduce and lower your power for so much. I imagine the Gods together have a hard time not squashing insects.

Plus, let's say that the Gods did reduce their power down to something comparable to Derriere's 50k basic punch. Kindly, explain to me how Meliodas is standing there in his AA tier form all bloody and desperate? That gives the impression that the Gods used power that is much stronger than his AA tier form, and considering how Elizabeth is standing there in the same position he is, gives the impression that a fully willed Goddess Elizabeth fighting to the death WILL certainly not be knocked unconscious by a mere 50k basic punch.

Makes no sense, by this logic Meliodas should have accidentally killed Kid Gilthunder any time they trained. The Gods could attack with a PL of 10 if they wanted to

 

[OtakuFreak]

I mean, from my point of view, Elizabeth as a Goddess is at the tier of the Four Archangels minimum, or even higher than them, (TL.DR AT BOTTOM) since:

-Considering the fact that wings express power, and how they are consistent in that fashion with the hierarchy of the Goddess Clan (e.g Supreme Goddess = biggest wings. Fodder = baby wings). Elizabeth should be at the tier of the Four Archangels. Surprisingly enough, the nanatsu no taizai wiki has this under the ability section of the Goddess Elizabeth: '' As stated a Goddesses' strength is measured by the number of wings and their sizes and Elizabeth has four wings and their size surpasses even Ludociel of the Archangels showing to be more powerful. '' (http://nanatsu-no-taizai.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_(Goddess) ). So yeah, looking at wings only and ignoring everything else, Elizabeth should be stronger than Ludoshel in terms of PL wise and is only inferior to Mael with sunshine (which is natural). If you discount the graces, Elizabeth should be the strongest Goddess, second to her mother.

-She's the daughter of the Supreme Goddess, WHICH has to account for something, It's not just a coincidence that Zeldris and Meliodas happen to be the top tiers of their clan, and are also the sons of the Demon King.

-Goddess Elizabeth literally stood in front of half the Ten Commandment brigade (6 of them IIRC?) and uttered the statement that she would fight all of them by herself in the moment if they happened to go after Meliodas. Considering how Galan, with the truth commandment was standing there, what Elizabeth saying must have been the truth, that she would be able to go up against 6 of the ten commandments (who happen to be around 30-50k ranges), or at the minimum, Elizabeth herself believed it to be the truth. Since Elizabeth isn't this cocky warrior who overestimates her own strength, and even pulls away from conflict at all costs in almost all situations and has the confidence to understand the limitations of her own power, what she said is quite believable. Sure, there's the possibility that she was wrong, or she possibly might've had divine protection (from her mother against the commandments) to shield her from the truth commandment, explaining why some of the commandment members never trusted her negotiation, despite Galan's commandment presence. But in the likelihood, it's more believable that Elizabeth did have the power to defeat 6 of the Ten Commandments who were present there, since some of them were not battle types (e.g Merascylla) or were mere replacements (e.g Fraudrin) or just merely weak (e.g Galan). The strongest individuals there, were Monspeet and Derriere, and even Ludoshel in a 1v6 could destroy them all IMO unless Indura happened.

-Considering how all of the Four Archangels at one point or another, have praised Elizabeth's power (ark) or have asked for her assistance, makes me to believe that she has to be at their level at a minimum, and possibly higher. After all, why would you ask and consistently praise someone's power who was notably weaker than yourself? Hell, Ludoshel who pretty much despises Elizabeth's personality and ideals of peace and tranquillity, has yet to ever disrespect her power. In fact, he was more confident when Elizabeth was by his side against the Indura, than when Sariel and Tarmiel were. Consequently, he even asked Elizabeth for her power, and was glad for her appearance, stating that if they combined their powers, they would be able to eliminate the Indura, and considering how Ludoshel's ark individually did nothing, implies that Elizabeth's ark would've made up for his weakness or inability to affect the Indura individually, I actually believe this, considering Elizabeth's magic individually placed the Indura's so close to being purified and defeated, but with a mere small power boost from Sariel/Tarmiel, Elizabeth easily purified them after. So a combination of Elizabeth and Ludoshel's ark when being used offensively, would've definitely eliminated the Indura.

-Elizabeth's full release of her magic literally illuminated the entire battlefield, pushed everyone back (who was close), and made the Indura's pay attention to Elizabeth, given their facial expression and ''!!!!!'' at her magic being released. Why is this downplayed? Ludoshel's full magic power never did this. Granted, he didn't put his 100% into one magic spell, but his ark at full power with consecutive blasts didn't scratch Derriere, or even make her pay as close attention to him. Hell, she even allowed multiple of his blasts to make contact against her, something the Indura definitely did not allow Elizabeth to do once her drills of light made contact, as seen by their immediate resistance to her light.

-From an individual stand point, Elizabeth performed better against the Indura's than the Four Archangels, despite her being in a 1v2 instead of a 3v2. Sure, Elizabeth failed to purify them and would've been pushed back entirely and followed up on by them after (which would've been devastating for Elizabeth), but given the fact that she was in a 1v2 battle, and was able to fend off the demons who just fodderized the Four Archangels, the strongest military force of the Goddess Clan, is nothing short of impressive. Hell, even Tarmiel said that it's not surprising that she is struggling, considering the Indura just took down 3 of the Four Archangels, and I'm sure we can all agree that 3 angels together are superior to Elizabeth's power individually. If you look even more closely as well, Elizabeth practically saved Sariel, Tarmiel and arguably Ludoshel from certain death. Monspeet basically one-shotted Sariel and Tarmiel, who were on the ground unable to heal themselves due to his tentacles holding on to them, and Derriere was able to individually fodderize Ludoshel in Phase 1. And this was all whilst the angels had the numbers advantage against the demons. But Elizabeth stepping in, means Sariel and Tarmiel were able to heal (since Elizabeth pushed Monspeet away and his grip on the angels) and stopping Ludoshel from having to fight Derriere, which is a death sentence alone, never mind Monspeet as well (lol). Why is this also downplayed and ignored? Elizabeth saves Sariel, Tarmiel and Ludoshel from certain death from demons who to me, seem only inferior to Assault Meliodas, all whilst placing them on the threshold of being purified and consequentially defeated in a 1v2, yet no one acknowledges or praises her for that, but are immediately ready to jump on the bandwagon on how Elizabeth ''always'' needs protection from literally anything (lol) or how she needled to be bubbled when she was knocked unconscious from being off-guard. Are you guys being wilfully ignorant?

-She stood in front of the Supreme Goddess and the Demon King in battle and was apparently able to keep up with Meliodas in his AA tier form. Granted, we didn't see the full battle, but considering that Meliodas in his 90-100k AA tier form is being significantly pressured, bloody, bruised, and on the verge of death from the looks of it and Elizabeth is in the same state of health as he is, implies she's somewhere near that level, otherwise, Elizabeth would've already been on the floor and most likely dead if it takes just a 50k basic demonic punch to take her down . Either way, I think we should consider this moment, as not everybody can stand in front of the 2 Gods of this series and not be fodderized immediately, even if they were holding back drastically. But, I'm fine to leave this point out when arguing for Elizabeth, since we have yet to see the full battle (Nakaba please, I want to see the Gods fodderize their children... would've been lovely to see ) and have only small clips of the fight. Still though, this should be taken into small consideration if you're saying she's weak or strong.

-Elizabeth's feats dictate that her magic is considerably stronger than the Four Archangels, since her ark has had more effectiveness, versatility and praise than anyone else in the clan. She can heal better, purify better, summon biblical animals and even offensively hurt people better from the feats we've seen with Elizabeth in comparison to the Four Archangels. Though, in feats, the angels naturally outclass her in durability, speed, and other physical capabilities since their graces improve those areas of power + I imagine magic is her speciality and since she's less of a warrior - has less refined physical skills.

TL.DR - Elizabeth's wings dictate she is AA tier, or specifically above Ludoshel and only inferior to a Mael with sunshine, especially if you consider she is the only daughter of the Supreme Goddess. Elizabeth stood in front of 6 commandments (in 30-50k ranges) and threatened to fight them, which is strange for someone who doesn't want to fight usually, so it has to prove Elizabeth is capable of doing that. The Four Archangels have praised or asked for Elizabeth's power more times than they have with each other. Elizabeth's full magic release is something none of the other angels have done, and with that she performed significantly better individually against the Indura and ended up saving Sariel, Tarmiel and Ludoshel from certain death. Stood in front of the Gods and wasn't fodderized immediately and is comparable to AA tier Meliodas, and by feats, has significantly stronger magic (ark) to the Four Archangels, and consequentially anybody else in the clan, but comes short in physical capabilities.

Just quote the TL.DR if you want to respond and not read the entire post

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 23, 2018 ---

Yep, though he obviously let her slap him

@Bøjan is triggered right now.

Are you seriously saying Assault Meliodas in battle can't dodge a human speed slap?

He was surprised certainly, wasnt "off-guard" though

It wasn't a battle, and he wasn't fully expecting it.

So did Gloxinia, who is weaker than Derriere.

He was struggling to keep up I recall?

How is friggin Gloxinia physically way stronger than Derriere?

can't remember what i said lol

Makes absolutely no sense.

yes.

Good, good, now we just have to wait for it to happen.

yes

lol

So did Gloxinia

he struggled to keep up

So? Even i could do that.

Do you have wings?

Says who? Gloxinia is a warror, like King, Elizabeth is a pacifist who as far as we can tell, has absolutely no combat experience.

Still, a PL of 0 physical stat and Gloxinia can do some pretty decent physical feats.

Heck, Elizabeth Liones has a PL of 5 physical, give her some wings and she should be able to do the same

How? I'm getting pretty tired of you accusing me of this, do you here me calling you a hypocrite?

Did I accuse you of being a double standard?

So was Mael when King cheap-shotted him from behind last chapter, did he get K.O'd?

Need to re-read the chapter.

Makes no sense, by this logic Meliodas should have accidentally killed Kid Gilthunder any time they trained. The Gods could attack with a PL of 10 if they wanted to

?

Meliodas had a PL of like 3k, and was sword training with a kid with a wooden sword, how is that comparable to a death battle with Gods?

 

[Bøjan]

@Bøjan is triggered right now.

It wasn't a battle, and he wasn't fully expecting it.

He was actually expecting a normal slap, not a giant ark slap , you can clearly see his expression when he saw the ark. In real battle it probably wouldn't have done anything though

 

[T25]

He was actually expecting a normal slap, not a giant ark slap , you can clearly see his expression when he saw the ark. In real battle it probably wouldn't have done anything though

Don’t think that’s completely true. It takes a certain amount of power to cause a reaction. For instance, death pierce was far two weak to cause a reaction to deri who didn’t really register his existence. Or Ludos two ark blasts to deris face.

 

[OtakuFreak]

He was actually expecting a normal slap, not a giant ark slap , you can clearly see his expression when he saw the ark. In real battle it probably wouldn't have done anything though

If a Goddess Elizabeth did the slap it would do some damage, but good luck getting through Full Counter and those thick abs which are basically a shield by themselves anyway

 

[Seven777]

I mean, from my point of view, Elizabeth as a Goddess is at the tier of the Four Archangels minimum, or even higher than them, (TL.DR AT BOTTOM) since:

-Considering the fact that wings express power, and how they are consistent in that fashion with the hierarchy of the Goddess Clan (e.g Supreme Goddess = biggest wings. Fodder = baby wings). Elizabeth should be at the tier of the Four Archangels. Surprisingly enough, the nanatsu no taizai wiki has this under the ability section of the Goddess Elizabeth: '' As stated a Goddesses' strength is measured by the number of wings and their sizes and Elizabeth has four wings and their size surpasses even Ludociel of the Archangels showing to be more powerful. '' (http://nanatsu-no-taizai.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_(Goddess) ). So yeah, looking at wings only and ignoring everything else, Elizabeth should be stronger than Ludoshel in terms of PL wise and is only inferior to Mael with sunshine (which is natural). If you discount the graces, Elizabeth should be the strongest Goddess, second to her mother.

-She's the daughter of the Supreme Goddess, WHICH has to account for something, It's not just a coincidence that Zeldris and Meliodas happen to be the top tiers of their clan, and are also the sons of the Demon King.

-Goddess Elizabeth literally stood in front of half the Ten Commandment brigade (6 of them IIRC?) and uttered the statement that she would fight all of them by herself in the moment if they happened to go after Meliodas. Considering how Galan, with the truth commandment was standing there, what Elizabeth saying must have been the truth, that she would be able to go up against 6 of the ten commandments (who happen to be around 30-50k ranges), or at the minimum, Elizabeth herself believed it to be the truth. Since Elizabeth isn't this cocky warrior who overestimates her own strength, and even pulls away from conflict at all costs in almost all situations and has the confidence to understand the limitations of her own power, what she said is quite believable. Sure, there's the possibility that she was wrong, or she possibly might've had divine protection (from her mother against the commandments) to shield her from the truth commandment, explaining why some of the commandment members never trusted her negotiation, despite Galan's commandment presence. But in the likelihood, it's more believable that Elizabeth did have the power to defeat 6 of the Ten Commandments who were present there, since some of them were not battle types (e.g Merascylla) or were mere replacements (e.g Fraudrin) or just merely weak (e.g Galan). The strongest individuals there, were Monspeet and Derriere, and even Ludoshel in a 1v6 could destroy them all IMO unless Indura happened.

-Considering how all of the Four Archangels at one point or another, have praised Elizabeth's power (ark) or have asked for her assistance, makes me to believe that she has to be at their level at a minimum, and possibly higher. After all, why would you ask and consistently praise someone's power who was notably weaker than yourself? Hell, Ludoshel who pretty much despises Elizabeth's personality and ideals of peace and tranquillity, has yet to ever disrespect her power. In fact, he was more confident when Elizabeth was by his side against the Indura, than when Sariel and Tarmiel were. Consequently, he even asked Elizabeth for her power, and was glad for her appearance, stating that if they combined their powers, they would be able to eliminate the Indura, and considering how Ludoshel's ark individually did nothing, implies that Elizabeth's ark would've made up for his weakness or inability to affect the Indura individually, I actually believe this, considering Elizabeth's magic individually placed the Indura's so close to being purified and defeated, but with a mere small power boost from Sariel/Tarmiel, Elizabeth easily purified them after. So a combination of Elizabeth and Ludoshel's ark when being used offensively, would've definitely eliminated the Indura.

-Elizabeth's full release of her magic literally illuminated the entire battlefield, pushed everyone back (who was close), and made the Indura's pay attention to Elizabeth, given their facial expression and ''!!!!!'' at her magic being released. Why is this downplayed? Ludoshel's full magic power never did this. Granted, he didn't put his 100% into one magic spell, but his ark at full power with consecutive blasts didn't scratch Derriere, or even make her pay as close attention to him. Hell, she even allowed multiple of his blasts to make contact against her, something the Indura definitely did not allow Elizabeth to do once her drills of light made contact, as seen by their immediate resistance to her light.

-From an individual stand point, Elizabeth performed better against the Indura's than the Four Archangels, despite her being in a 1v2 instead of a 3v2. Sure, Elizabeth failed to purify them and would've been pushed back entirely and followed up on by them after (which would've been devastating for Elizabeth), but given the fact that she was in a 1v2 battle, and was able to fend off the demons who just fodderized the Four Archangels, the strongest military force of the Goddess Clan, is nothing short of impressive. Hell, even Tarmiel said that it's not surprising that she is struggling, considering the Indura just took down 3 of the Four Archangels, and I'm sure we can all agree that 3 angels together are superior to Elizabeth's power individually. If you look even more closely as well, Elizabeth practically saved Sariel, Tarmiel and arguably Ludoshel from certain death. Monspeet basically one-shotted Sariel and Tarmiel, who were on the ground unable to heal themselves due to his tentacles holding on to them, and Derriere was able to individually fodderize Ludoshel in Phase 1. And this was all whilst the angels had the numbers advantage against the demons. But Elizabeth stepping in, means Sariel and Tarmiel were able to heal (since Elizabeth pushed Monspeet away and his grip on the angels) and stopping Ludoshel from having to fight Derriere, which is a death sentence alone, never mind Monspeet as well (lol). Why is this also downplayed and ignored? Elizabeth saves Sariel, Tarmiel and Ludoshel from certain death from demons who to me, seem only inferior to Assault Meliodas, all whilst placing them on the threshold of being purified and consequentially defeated in a 1v2, yet no one acknowledges or praises her for that, but are immediately ready to jump on the bandwagon on how Elizabeth ''always'' needs protection from literally anything (lol) or how she needled to be bubbled when she was knocked unconscious from being off-guard. Are you guys being wilfully ignorant?

-She stood in front of the Supreme Goddess and the Demon King in battle and was apparently able to keep up with Meliodas in his AA tier form. Granted, we didn't see the full battle, but considering that Meliodas in his 90-100k AA tier form is being significantly pressured, bloody, bruised, and on the verge of death from the looks of it and Elizabeth is in the same state of health as he is, implies she's somewhere near that level, otherwise, Elizabeth would've already been on the floor and most likely dead if it takes just a 50k basic demonic punch to take her down . Either way, I think we should consider this moment, as not everybody can stand in front of the 2 Gods of this series and not be fodderized immediately, even if they were holding back drastically. But, I'm fine to leave this point out when arguing for Elizabeth, since we have yet to see the full battle (Nakaba please, I want to see the Gods fodderize their children... would've been lovely to see ) and have only small clips of the fight. Still though, this should be taken into small consideration if you're saying she's weak or strong.

-Elizabeth's feats dictate that her magic is considerably stronger than the Four Archangels, since her ark has had more effectiveness, versatility and praise than anyone else in the clan. She can heal better, purify better, summon biblical animals and even offensively hurt people better from the feats we've seen with Elizabeth in comparison to the Four Archangels. Though, in feats, the angels naturally outclass her in durability, speed, and other physical capabilities since their graces improve those areas of power + I imagine magic is her speciality and since she's less of a warrior - has less refined physical skills.

TL.DR - Elizabeth's wings dictate she is AA tier, or specifically above Ludoshel and only inferior to a Mael with sunshine, especially if you consider she is the only daughter of the Supreme Goddess. Elizabeth stood in front of 6 commandments (in 30-50k ranges) and threatened to fight them, which is strange for someone who doesn't want to fight usually, so it has to prove Elizabeth is capable of doing that. The Four Archangels have praised or asked for Elizabeth's power more times than they have with each other. Elizabeth's full magic release is something none of the other angels have done, and with that she performed significantly better individually against the Indura and ended up saving Sariel, Tarmiel and Ludoshel from certain death. Stood in front of the Gods and wasn't fodderized immediately and is comparable to AA tier Meliodas, and by feats, has significantly stronger magic (ark) to the Four Archangels, and consequentially anybody else in the clan, but comes short in physical capabilities.

Just quote the TL.DR if you want to respond and not read the entire post

Wasnt really directed at me but ill mention a few things.
-First, i can buy Elizabeth being AA tier, at least in terms of PL
-Wings equal rank, not power, right? Besides, Ludociel's wings are a fair bit larger than Elizabeths when you consider the vast height difference.
-All AA wings are more or less comparable to each other anyway, which would make sense since they're all the same rank.
-Elizabeth is a pacifist, Zel and Mel are warriors. If Elizabeth were to give up her ideals maybe she could reach their level, but with them intact? I'd say they weaken her just as much as Meliodas' emotions weaken him.
-Galan not turning her to stone when she said she'd fight them doesnt mean she'd be able to win or even that she thought she could, just means that if it came down to it she'd fight for her man, which she obviously would.
-Eli went from being barely able to maintain the purification beam, with both Indura extracting it from their bodies and holding it with their hands. to shooting it right through their stomachs in an instant, Sariel and Tarmiel's back up made a massive difference
-Let There Be Light is certainly a powerful move, but its incredibly situational. An ability like Fox Hunt works equally well against foes 10 times more powerful than the user, but without the same restrictions as Eli, dont make Ban more than his 3k though, like i said, having an OP ability doesnt make the character overall OP, Break, Snatch, Love Drive, etc, are powerful abilities that can defeat opponents much more powerful than the wielders, doesnt make the wielders 100k+ or whatever though.

@Bøjan is triggered right now.

Are you seriously saying Assault Meliodas in battle can't dodge a human speed slap?

Uh... no, did you not read the part where i said Meliodas let it happen?

He was struggling to keep up I recall?

Nah, Diane said "wait for me", but that just cause they flew off pretty suddenly

he struggled to keep up

No he didnt, he was having a casual chat with Diane while flying behind him.

Do you have wings?

Ha, no, but if the person carrying me suddenly fell, i'd react be able to react to it, maybe even catch them before the distance got too wide, though i'd fall to my death regardless.

Still, a PL of 0 physical stat and Gloxinia can do some pretty decent physical feats.

Battle experience comes in handy, especially for honing reflexes.

Heck, Elizabeth Liones has a PL of 5 physical, give her some wings and she should be able to do the same

Probably, but staying back and avoiding Derriere the entire fight? Not likely, you'd have to be much faster than her to do that, and Eli isnt from what we've seen.

Did I accuse you of being a double standard?

Yep, or at least most of the comments you quote me with mention it

Need to re-read the chapter.

Go ahead, but i'll tell you the answer now anyway, no, Mael didnt get K.O'd from King's attack despite being completely "off-guard" and not seeing the attack coming, he laughed it off.

?

Meliodas had a PL of like 3k, and was sword training with a kid with a wooden sword, how is that comparable to a death battle with Gods?

3k Meliodas with a twig cleaved a hill in two in the first chapter, him not killing Gilthunder while training means he can regulate his powerlevel to be as weak as he wants it to be. The gods can obviously do the same, how do you think Wild has survived all the years?

 

[kaiiruuu]

Its funny how I started reading this thread, and keep on seeing the same, repeated things you guys throw to each other from both sides.

Anyway, I don't believe in this Eli=Mel or Eli is above 100k BUT we can't deny there has been a lot of hype and indication about Eli's power (I mean, the Eli squad pretty much enumerated everything) so I hope Eli-antis won't overlook them. By the way, you can have a very high power level and not invest your stats into attacking enemies. If Eli were in a MMORPG, she'd definitely be the cleric, support type. Can she fight and kill 1 v 1? Maybe no. Can she be killed? Given her OP healing, i think not. Can she win 2 v 1 as support? Definitely yes.

Eli WILL NOT definitely defeat Zeldris, Deri, Mons and other high tier demons 1 v 1 per se. BUt she most definitely can dispel most of their magic and debuffs, which is already a great feat. IMO she can tag team with any sins and defeat any commandment, 2 v 1 by just playing the support role.

Also, are we forgetting that NNT is a shonen manga and caters more to male readers? It's toxic enough that females in shonen are always regarded as damsels in distress and, more so are being viewed as sexual objects (which should stop btw). Nakaba Suzuki isnt an exception of course. I have yet to see a lead female in NNT who doesn't need any help from males (except Merlin maybe). So my expectations for Eli being a fighter type has already worn down, the golden rule in most shonen is the female chars shouldn't be stronger than the male ones (except if you're Erza or Mirajane btw)

Another interesting point to note is how NS keeps on delaying Eli's PL ever since the return of her memories, if that isn't enough hype about her potential, I dont know what will.

Anyway guys continue with your repetitive discussions LOL

 

[Commanderaxe]

Its funny how I started reading this thread, and keep on seeing the same, repeated things you guys throw to each other from both sides.

Anyway, I don't believe in this Eli=Mel or Eli is above 100k BUT we can't deny there has been a lot of hype and indication about Eli's power (I mean, the Eli squad pretty much enumerated everything) so I hope Eli-antis won't overlook them. By the way, you can have a very high power level and not invest your stats into attacking enemies. If Eli were in a MMORPG, she'd definitely be the cleric, support type. Can she fight and kill 1 v 1? Maybe no. Can she be killed? Given her OP healing, i think not. Can she win 2 v 1 as support? Definitely yes.

Eli WILL NOT definitely defeat Zeldris, Deri, Mons and other high tier demons 1 v 1 per se. BUt she most definitely can dispel most of their magic and debuffs, which is already a great feat. IMO she can tag team with any sins and defeat any commandment, 2 v 1 by just playing the support role.

Also, are we forgetting that NNT is a shonen manga and caters more to male readers? It's toxic enough that females in shonen are always regarded as damsels in distress and, more so are being viewed as sexual objects (which should stop btw). Nakaba Suzuki isnt an exception of course. I have yet to see a lead female in NNT who doesn't need any help from males (except Merlin maybe). So my expectations for Eli being a fighter type has already worn down, the golden rule in most shonen is the female chars shouldn't be stronger than the male ones (except if you're Erza or Mirajane btw)

Another interesting point to note is how NS keeps on delaying Eli's PL ever since the return of her memories, if that isn't enough hype about her potential, I dont know what will.

Anyway guys continue with your repetitive discussions LOL

It's rare to see an Elizabeth fan who isn't on the 100k+ warrior Elizabeth hype train. I must say you are right about the way mangakas portray females however, especially their main female leads. They certainly are almost never on par with the male leads such as Lucy, Sakura,Nami, Urakaka(mha), Shiemi(blue exorcist)etc. Some female leads done right however would be Morgiana(magi), Maka(Soul eater), Mikasa(AOT). Note I don't mean personality wise per se, but in strength. Those 3 were for the most part always on par with their fellow male leads.(Except for Morgiana since Aladdin and Alibaba kinda got OP af powerups, but that was EOS.)

 

[Shutensatsu]

I think what has happened here is that because Mael has been confirmed to be the equal to Mel on the opposite side that it is now near impossible to claim that Elizabeth and Mel are on the same level. So now Mael has pushed Elizabeth out of that top spot who is next in line after Mel that can be used to compare Elizabeth?

Zeldris. Come on don't drag his reputation in the mud because certain people don't like Elizabeth /or think she is not top tier.

@Demonspeed - I'm not entirely sure what occurred on the last page I apologise if my post does violate your notice.

Nakaba made a pair of demon brothers.

The older brother is the strongest demon.

The younger brother is portrayed as the next strongest.

Nakaba made a pair of goddess brothers.

The younger brother is the strongest goddess.

The older brother is portrayed as the next strongest goddess.

There’s the parallel.

People are trying to shove Eli into this parallel and that’s why she keeps disappointing. She has no role there.

 

[Gut's is the man]

People get that post was sarcasm right?

 

[revo]

Its funny how I started reading this thread, and keep on seeing the same, repeated things you guys throw to each other from both sides.

Anyway, I don't believe in this Eli=Mel or Eli is above 100k BUT we can't deny there has been a lot of hype and indication about Eli's power (I mean, the Eli squad pretty much enumerated everything) so I hope Eli-antis won't overlook them. By the way, you can have a very high power level and not invest your stats into attacking enemies. If Eli were in a MMORPG, she'd definitely be the cleric, support type. Can she fight and kill 1 v 1? Maybe no. Can she be killed? Given her OP healing, i think not. Can she win 2 v 1 as support? Definitely yes.

Eli WILL NOT definitely defeat Zeldris, Deri, Mons and other high tier demons 1 v 1 per se. BUt she most definitely can dispel most of their magic and debuffs, which is already a great feat. IMO she can tag team with any sins and defeat any commandment, 2 v 1 by just playing the support role.

Also, are we forgetting that NNT is a shonen manga and caters more to male readers? It's toxic enough that females in shonen are always regarded as damsels in distress and, more so are being viewed as sexual objects (which should stop btw). Nakaba Suzuki isnt an exception of course. I have yet to see a lead female in NNT who doesn't need any help from males (except Merlin maybe). So my expectations for Eli being a fighter type has already worn down, the golden rule in most shonen is the female chars shouldn't be stronger than the male ones (except if you're Erza or Mirajane btw)

Another interesting point to note is how NS keeps on delaying Eli's PL ever since the return of her memories, if that isn't enough hype about her potential, I dont know what will.

Anyway guys continue with your repetitive discussions LOL

I thought I was the only Elizabeth fangirl who doesn't see and doesn't care her to be the fighter most people claim her to be
Also you're 100% right about the shonen rule. I thought Nakaba was going to make the exception when Goddess Elizabeth showed up but in the end that's not the case.
I think everyone wants to make Eli be 100k or wathever to make the character look important when her role in the plot is different yet just as important and relevant as the other main characters. In fact, Elizabeth isn't a very disliked character as her fandom think she is, but she's still forced to be in discussions where she doesn't belong to which makes people react. Her magic is still powerful and important but most of things about her are just speculations that I don't think will happen in the manga.
I think she needs character development, but not about her powers or strenght.

 

[Inuhanyou123]

I think what has happened here is that because Mael has been confirmed to be the equal to Mel on the opposite side that it is now near impossible to claim that Elizabeth and Mel are on the same level. So now Mael has pushed Elizabeth out of that top spot who is next in line after Mel that can be used to compare Elizabeth?

Zeldris. Come on don't drag his reputation in the mud because certain people don't like Elizabeth /or think she is not top tier.

This is not a well reasoned argument IMO. Mael and Mel were both known as equals in their destructive dealing to the other clan. That is why their power and legend are so well known. Elizabeth as far as we know, has always been a pacifist, so has never had that reputation. It doesn't say anything about her power and positioning in the war. To begin, Elie and the other archangels are much older than mael. When mael was not around, there had to be a buffer from the Demon clan somehere. My point is, Mael was not always around

 

[Aldan]

Frankly, I see eli as a superb glass cannon. She's certainly shown immense raw power in her goddess form against the indura and it was implied through Rudociel and the other AAs comments. Regardless, while I do think she is AA tier in magic this does not put her at the 100k range. Her light simply seems potent, but not at all catered to offensive uses. She specialises in purification, healing and dispelling demonic magic and inclination. This doesn't mean she can't participate in battles. In fact, she could very well.play an immense offensive role in coming battle, but it doesn't change the fact that she has never shown regen on par with the AAs. She specialises in healing others, and her biggest weaknesses are simply lack of killing intent and physical frailty.

 

[Inuhanyou123]

Frankly, I see eli as a superb glass cannon. She's certainly shown immense raw power in her goddess form against the indura and it was implied through Rudociel and the other AAs comments. Regardless, while I do think she is AA tier in magic this does not put her at the 100k range. Her light simply seems potent, but not at all catered to offensive uses. She specialises in purification, healing and dispelling demonic magic and inclination. This doesn't mean she can't participate in battles. In fact, she could very well.play an immense offensive role in coming battle, but it doesn't change the fact that she has never shown regen on par with the AAs. She specialises in healing others, and her biggest weaknesses are simply lack of killing intent and physical frailty.

"regen"? She has shown the power to instantly regen pretty much everyone in an entire army simultaneously over and over throughout an entire large scale battle without breaking a single sweat or sign of exertion of her power, what does that have to do with healing herself? she's never been put in a position where she's had to heal herself from major damage in the first place.

I am also confused by your statement that "she is AA tier in magic but this doesnt put her in 100k range"? That doesnt mean anything in particular...if her magic is insane and we find out her total PL is like 80 or 90k, that makes her AA level, regardless of whether her magic stat is her biggest asset or not.

 

[Aldan]

"regen"? She has shown the power to instantly regen pretty much everyone in an entire army simultaneously over and over throughout an entire large scale battle without breaking a single sweat or sign of exertion of her power, what does that have to do with healing herself? she's never been put in a position where she's had to heal herself from major damage in the first place.

I am also confused by your statement that "she is AA tier in magic but this doesnt put her in 100k range"? That doesnt mean anything in particular...if her magic is insane and we find out her total PL is like 80 or 90k, that makes her AA level, regardless of whether her magic stat is her biggest asset or not.

Regeneration in this case refers to the ability to passively heal damage done to oneself without the need for movement or a specific technique. She clearly has the ability which is indicated when she is hit by Chandler's Enkonjin, but unlike the AAs who can rapidly heal their human bodies being shattered or even bisected in mere seconds, Elizabeth was incapable of passively healing a single head wound, and was forced to resort to "actively" healing herself by hand. So yes, she has been in occasions where the more "passive" form of regeneration would be necessary in battle and failed to employ it as effectively as the AAs. Therefore it is inconsequential in a solo battle if she is capable of healing an entire army if her ability to heal herself is rendered useless due to the pain from a wound or simple surprise. If all her bones were broken, its clear she wouldn't have been able to save herself the way sariel did.

And actually, my statement does mean something if you had read the post in it's entirety: I reiterated the common argument that Elizabeth possessing magical ability or raw power in the realm of or even exceeding the AAs does not automatically mean that she has a power level of 100k. Even a magic pl of 70000 for example would exceed anything we have seen from any character so far. She would have greater raw power than the AAs but again this does not mean she could fight with opponents on ludociel's level without assistance because a single hit could disable her, especially in her current form. Against mid tier commandments I think she would do very well against tho, hence why I believe she would have been capable of fending off the 5 commandments.