Discussion Elizabeth

[Seven777]

Hating someone is not something I do. Passing comments or any such comments is what I use to try to determine someone’s outlook. Determining someone’s outlook helps me try to better understand someone. How you view a character, how you view a situation, how you express disappointment, anger, emotion through words whether in passing or in focus is what I use to determine what you are “saying” and why you are “saying” it before i try to express to you why I believe it is valid or invalid.

Now I would wish you to give me a better example of her “noble goals going on the back burner” than her staying with Mel. Her “noble goal” was to stop the war between the clans. After she got with Mel her noble goal was to stop the war between the clans. Where do you find indication that this declined? Furthermore, she took the enemy of her people as her lover? Did she now? A man who chose to ally himself with his people’s enemy to stop a destructive conflict. Was Eli supposed to follow her peoples actions and behavior and hate her people’s enemies? Does that make her a “good person” to you? It seems you have your facts mixed up.

Deri was already willing and was in fact negotiating with Eli. They had come to a decision. After, deri threw in Mel as a bonus to which Eli refused “without a second thought.” Deri stated “I get it” before Eli raised her hand to shake on it. See the bottom left panel? The “fwip.” They had come to an acceptable agreement. Ludo destroyed it. That is what was depicted.

I gave you a prime example, Elizabeth not agreeing to join Meliodas and help him absorb the commandments. Her current goal is all for the sake of Mel, any noble ones are put on the back burner.
What? So you think Derriere was actually about to agree? Not how i read it.

Regardless, I believe there is an even more fundamental issue here.

This is what you had once told me. Why then are you here advocating she betray the man who chose to fight alongside her and her people to accomplish her goal? To abandon her lover and ally to be killed for any reason and especially no reason. Would that make her a “good person” to you?

For fucks sake, this is exactly why i didnt want to elaborate, bringing up an old comment to try and prove im a hypocrite? This is gonna turn into accusing me of hating Elizabeth again isnt it? But since im already here i might as well reply, you're right, I do hate traitors, and what would Elizabeth be if she were fraternizing with a guy who slaughtered masses of her kith and kin? But despite that making her a traitor on paper, i dont actually think Elizabeth was a traitor, because i never believed she had any sort of loyalty to the goddess clan to begin with despite being born to them. Though i will say that normally, treating a cold blooded killer like Meliodas as anything but trash sickens me, but since i dont actually know how they got together i can give it a pass, maybe Meliodas didnt enjoy killing even as Assault Mode and just did it cause its war, maybe Eli was brainwashed into loving him, maybe AM Meliodas and normal Meliodas are two different people and she fell in love with the latter, etc.
Oh and i never said Elizabeth should kill Meliodas or turn him over to the goddesses, i said her choosing to enter into a relationship with Meliodas and choosing to stay with him after seeing the result of that relationship isnt something a "good" person would do. As for handing him over to Derriere, its not betrayal if he consents.

“Dragged her country into a war” huh. You mean the country that had already been attacked and was geared for self defense upon the attackers who were amassing troops for continued domination at a country they had taken over? This war had already started. Her goal was for her and the six to stop Mel who upon regressing became disconcerned of many matters not regarding their curse. Then ludo came into the picture. Now, she had to take him into consideration. Especially so considering he was inhabiting the body of the first princess of said country. You indicate that Eli became more selfish in that she is now more narrow minded for Mel correct? Had this been the case what then would her next actions be when given the chance to stop Mel with escanor ludo and Merlin? What she did was choose to go with that country she doomed to die to protect them instead of going to that lover she so narrowly minded abandoned everyone else for no?

How and why are you justifying yourself with this baseless hypothetical you have constructed? Mel would stop the war would he? Mel would kill his father would he? Now, upon Mel’s awakening what was it that he told the six? “I don’t want to have to kill you” I believe he said. What were his actions regarding Arthur? He told him to begone and didn’t bat an eye to his endangerment and allowed cusack to kill him I believe it was. What were his orders to the demon army regarding their continued advancement? None. He did not impede it I believe. Mel appeared to be one that would not hesitate to kill anyone who got on his way even comrades. By what contextual evidence do you have to validate your claim that Mel would care to stop the war?That he would kill his father who would be more or less on par with him? What has Mel shown for you to draw the conclusion that Mel, as he is now, would enact the best conclusion?

Yes exactly, now that she knows she loves Mel he takes priority over everything, going with the Sins still works towards her goal of preventing Mel from getting the commandments, besides if Chandler took her hostage the same way Mael did it'd mean death for everyone except Ludo. As for Ludo, she wasnt aware of his presence when she rejected Meliodas' plan, and even if she was she should be working with Meliodas and Zeldris to stop him, rather than working with the worst goddess since the Supreme Deity.

You asked me to elaborate and i am, dont get up in my shit because you dont like the answer.
-Presumably, Mel said he would become the next demon king.
-Yep, he doesnt want to kill the Sins, which means he doesnt want meaningless death as long as it doesnt interfere with his goals, reasonable
-Yep, because Arthur was getting in his way, he didnt want him dead and told him to leave, a reasonable man
-True, he gave no orders to the demons, why would he? The Alliance Elizabeth formed was coming for him, which is why Elizabeth should have stayed with him and asked him to keep them contained within Camelot. Did she do that? No, strange thing too since Mel had showed thus far he was pretty reasonable as long as it didnt interfere with his goal, and if she offered him her and the Sins assistance he could become the DK that much faster.

 

[Aldan]

I have to say, I'm a tad disappointed by the way that Nakaba has been portraying Elizabeth as of late. Rereading some of the older chapters obsessively, I realise I truly was getting used to the wise and composed Goddess Elizabeth we had seen of late. Its rather difficult to reconcile the mature and powerful goddess who flummoxed two high ranking demons and the captain of the seven deadly sins with Princess Elizabeth as she has reverted to lately. I hope that Nakaba shows a bit more of Elizabeth's determined powerful side rather than this withering damsel

 

[Inuhanyou123]

I have to say, I'm a tad disappointed by the way that Nakaba has been portraying Elizabeth as of late. Rereading some of the older chapters obsessively, I realise I truly was getting used to the wise and composed Goddess Elizabeth we had seen of late. Its rather difficult to reconcile the mature and powerful goddess who flummoxed two high ranking demons and the captain of the seven deadly sins with Princess Elizabeth as she has reverted to lately. I hope that Nakaba shows a bit more of Elizabeth's determined powerful side rather than this withering damsel

I agree...i am glad she is healing, but its nowhere near enough...Elizabeth ever since she had gotten her memories back had seemed to get a lot of strength of will, even when she got kidnapped, she was facing off against 3c Estarossa by herself and she fought back with vigour. It was only after she was woken up by Derieri that she seemed to become weaker for some reason. Nakaba, give Elizabeth more credit here

 

[Gut's is the man]

Orihime just heals. Elizabeth does more than that.

She can:

-Hurt people with her ark
-Purify darkness
-Break demonic and powerful curses.
-Heal absurdly well
-Summon biblical animals for multiple purposes
-And even have a spell that can turn back "time" so people can experience the past in first person.

Now, would you still call her an Orihime clone given she does far more than just healing at every turn?

You seem to forget that Orhime could:
- Create shields to protect people.
- summons Banki spirits.
- Warp reality as munch as she can subconsciously believe so.
- bring people back from the dead.
- Restore lost limbs.

So many capabilitys all to be side lined in favor of other characters and her love interest. She is tragically a Orihime clone. You have my condolences.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 30, 2018 ---

I agree...i am glad she is healing, but its nowhere near enough...Elizabeth ever since she had gotten her memories back had seemed to get a lot of strength of will, even when she got kidnapped, she was facing off against 3c Estarossa by herself and she fought back with vigour. It was only after she was woken up by Derieri that she seemed to become weaker for some reason. Nakaba, give Elizabeth more credit here

Because a dear friend of hers' is the enemy for no fault of his own and she has to watch as her other friends have to battle and in all likelihood kill her tragedy magnet friend for a situation he didn't even consciously choose. All to end a war she is partly responsible for.

there's a lot for her to lose heart over. You know what... I'm taking back every criticism i've leveled at Elizabeth in this current situation. It's completely within reason for her to do nothing but heal.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Let's not turn this thread into a pure Elizabeth PL one.

Either way, my thoughts boil into this:

-King, Diane and Gowther regardless of power ups or strategy aren't going to defeat Mael.

-Elizabeth will absorb the blessings because that's the only way to defeat Mael and accomplish her goals.

Change my mind, if you dare.

If that were a possibility wouldn't they have noticed or brought up the graces power? I have seen no foreshadowing of elizabeth gaining a power up, no foreshadowing or hint that the graces remain. Heck as munch as I call it BS, sariel saying that no darkness or light magic can hurt Mael implies that he won't be beaten by a demon or goddess. Before you fire back the graces not being Light or darkness. Mael gained darkness abilities from the commandments, which had no dark aspects to speak of. Implying the graces are just light magic used differently.

Your counter argument?

 

[Gojo Satoru]

"Orihime Clone"
I HAVE TO LAUGH

 

[ShadowHeart]

"Orihime Clone"
I HAVE TO LAUGH

To tragic otherwise?

 

[Aldan]

You seem to forget that Orhime could:
- Create shields to protect people.
- summons Banki spirits.
- Warp reality as munch as she can subconsciously believe so.
- bring people back from the dead.
- Restore lost limbs.

So many capabilitys all to be side lined in favor of other characters and her love interest. She is tragically a Orihime clone. You have my condolences.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 30, 2018 ---

Because a dear friend of hers' is the enemy for no fault of his own and she has to watch as her other friends have to battle and in all likelihood kill her tragedy magnet friend for a situation he didn't even consciously choose. All to end a war she is partly responsible for.

there's a lot for her to lose heart over. You know what... I'm taking back every criticism i've leveled at Elizabeth in this current situation. It's completely within reason for her to do nothing but heal.

CHaracter wise, they are substantially different. For one thing, Elizbeth actually fights when her life is in danger and she is certainly more charismatic and determined than Orihime was. Plus, her devotion to Meliodas definitely trumps Orihime's schoolgirl crush...

As for her losing her heart, i agree, but considering the bold statement that she just made, i do expect her to play a significant role in Mael's defeat. The only rwason I now argue with the Eli fandom is because I dont expect her to become a demigoddess through convenient grace absorbtion and sideline the sins + I expect it after the sins get a few more hits in

 

[OtakuFreak]

Calling Elizabeth a clone of Orihime is like calling Meliodas a clone of Ichigo....

Makes 0 sense, and is really just embarrassing to read.

 

[Gut's is the man]

"Orihime Clone"
I HAVE TO LAUGH

Mind offering how all my points weren't spot on?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 30, 2018 ---

Calling Elizabeth a clone of Orihime is like calling Meliodas a clone of Ichigo....

Makes 0 sense, and is really just embarrassing to read.

No Mel and Ichigo are completly different in every way.
* Mel isn't someone who would do anything necessary for his friends.
* His entire character arc is about his past and dealing with it.
* Mel in battle is far comer then Ichiago.
* Meliodas is a experienced veteran, ichiago is a rookie.
* Ichiago would never turn on his friends for any reason, Mel did so to keep his promise and end his suffering.
* Ichiago would never betray his siblings, Meliodas hurt his brother in a way that good cause or not, he should have acted differently.

How about instead of just calling the idea laughable you actually tackle the root of the argument instead of screaming and throw bricks at the branches.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 30, 2018 ---

CHaracter wise, they are substantially different. For one thing, Elizbeth actually fights when her life is in danger and she is certainly more charismatic and determined than Orihime was. Plus, her devotion to Meliodas definitely trumps Orihime's schoolgirl crush...

As for her losing her heart, i agree, but considering the bold statement that she just made, i do expect her to play a significant role in Mael's defeat. The only rwason I now argue with the Eli fandom is because I dont expect her to become a demigoddess through convenient grace absorbtion and sideline the sins + I expect it after the sins get a few more hits in

Those are three detail without addressing how they are both handled and written the exact same way wiht the same issues.

 

[Aldan]

Those are three detail without addressing how they are both handled and written the exact same way wiht the same issues.

What? I've already detailed Elizabeth's courage and unique ability to be chqarismatic to both friend and foe. Definitely not qualities orihime possessed. Her willingness to battle and composure in battle are also findamentally different.But frankly, I cbs writing more so I'll just stick to my interpretation

 

[Gojo Satoru]

Mind offering how all my points weren't spot on?

I see where this is is coming from honestly. They do share similarities however, they are not the same hence why the 'clone' moniker just can't work there.
So let's see.

Similarities
• Both characters are essentially the main female protagonist of their series - ok bleh

• Both characters have 'healing' abilities - it isn't the 1st a female lead has healing powers in fact the role of healing in manga/anime is always giving to a female, lead or not. - WHERE MY SAKURA FANS? (LOL/Let me not mention that tragedy of a character)

• Both characters started out at the absolute bottom in power even the support cast could whoop their ass since they were powerless.

• Both have or had the damsel in distress personality or at least made to seem like one.

So now pass the similarities now to ask the question. What makes Elizabeth not an Orihime Clone?
So what makes her indifferent to Orihime?

Orihime has an OP power. The ability to reject God's limitations, but Kubo legit just made that a fancy way of putting

"My powers are actually OP but I just can't seem to use hone in on thatOP side, which am not even sure how I resurrected that one dude cause it's not like I'll ever do it again"

That's the difference right there.
Orihime's powers aren't just inconsistent they are nowhere near the level in which it was hyped to become.

Has Orihime done nothing other than healing?
Yes she has made barriers but that's it.
Her attacking ability has only ever been used 3 times.
ORIHIME WENT OFFENSIVE ONLY 3 TIMES IN 686 CHAPTERS

That's a fucking disappointment blank line.

And also I don't think in any big fight has she ever offered offensive support.
She's just a walking healer and her powers takes a good while to work and she has actually the inconsistent healing speed one second restoring limbs the other taking a long ass time to heal Ichigo's normal wounds which Elizabeth hasn't displayed (Its just taking longer cause she has to break the curse the commandment made)

Bottom Line

Orihime's healing ability doesn't have shit on Elizabeth's (Just because she resurrected someone once doesn't mean shit if its a one time thing)

Elizabeth contributes more to a fight than healing and shielding.

She's healed countless times, she's purified top ranked demons, harmed top ranked demons and has a mind blowing back story, she has her own goals and ambitions and won't just listen to Meliodas because he's main Mc (I guarantee you Inoue would listen to Meliodas and make him sacrifice his self to become the Demon King and she wouldn't do shit) Elizabeth is actually unofficially the captain of the Seven Deadly Sins actually
Why?

Because she can be trusted and depended on as to why someone like Derieri would go to her for protection because she has abilities other than healing to provide to the table and she's working independent of Meliodas which is something I admire.

Orihime doesn't compare and this is 686 chapters of character 'development' vs Taizai 279, a 407 difference yet Elizabeth is clearly beyond Orihime's character now.

Thanks if you read to the end

 

[HereNThere]

We talkin' Bleach? Orihime's healing ability is superior to Elizabeth's, mainly due to the fact that it isn't healing, but "rejection" of damage. Elizabeth has yet to be shown regrowing limbs and whatnot, Orihime has done so on multiple occasions. Plus, Orihime's abilities are dependent on her Willpower, like Break. It's implied that a fully willful Orihime is on some next level 'ish. Unfortunately, the series never capitalizes on her or Chad's implied potential. Despite that, what we've seen from Orihime implies that her ability to heal is superior to Elizabeth's. And she's revived more than one person from Death. She revived fodder Shinigami that got merked by Ulquiorra during her kidnapping and she revived Menoly after Grimmjow 'sploded her upper body.

That being said, they aren't clones of one another. They have major similarities on a surface level and even in terms of some characterization and trajectory. Had she not gotten lost in the shuffle of the millions of Bleach characters, I imagine that the comparisons between the two would be a lot closer as current Elizabeth is probably what Orihime's end result was supposed to resemble. The end of Bleach kinda had her there when she went with Ichigo to fight Ywach, but she once again got lost when other people came to help Ichigo. And even then, we didn't see her journey to reach that state. So in that regard, Elizabeth is the better character because she's fully realized.

 

[Mythoclast]

I can't take NNT serious anymore,so imma jump on board the Elizabeth hype train and wank the shit out of her.

#UltraGod:Valkyriemode Elizabeth
Spread the word...

 

[OtakuFreak]

I can't take NNT serious anymore,so imma jump on board the Elizabeth hype train and wank the shit out of her.

#UltraGod:Valkyriemode Elizabeth
Spread the word...

@MrSchmitty7 Elizabeth's power-up is going to be the must-pick status of Mercy Valkyrie

 

[MrSchmitty7]

@MrSchmitty7 Elizabeth's power-up is going to be the must-pick status of Mercy Valkyrie

"Sins never die!"

 

[Mythoclast]

Can't believe people actually think Mael is the second strongest Goddess.
Pfft,he ran like biatch from Demon mark Mel.Eli on the other hand,naah,she was unflinching infront of two Gods while not even using her ult(UltraGod:Valkyriemode).

If that isn't evidence enough,then I don't know what is...smh

 

[OtakuFreak]

Can't believe people actually think Mael is the second strongest Goddess.
Pfft,he ran like biatch from Demon mark Mel.Eli on the other hand,naah,she was unflinching infront of two Gods while not even using her ult(UltraGod:Valkyriemode).

If that isn't evidence enough,then I don't know what is...smh

The latest chapter really broke you didn't it...

 

[Mythoclast]

The latest chapter really broke you didn't it...

 

[T25]

I cant really say i buy into the "surprise attack=X10 damage" or whatever, i mean it makes sense for you to be hurt more by an attack if you dont brace for it, but it shouldnt make an attack do an extra 50k worth of damage. When you have a certain level of durability you should be above bracing for certain attacks.
As for Elizabeth slapping Meliodas, knocking him on his ass doesnt make it powerful, Arthur smashed Mel far further than Elizabeth did and unlike her attacks, Arthur's sword isnt super effective against him. Mel's bruise impressed me more than him falling over.

Elizabeth just isnt suited for CQC imo, durability and agility arent her thing, she can tank magic attacks fine and should be able to heal from any stab or slash wound, so as long as she keeps her distance or uses an ark barrier she should be able to keep herself alive. Still dont think she can beat any top tiers 1v1 though, not in a conventional sort of fight anyway, she seems way better as a support combatant

Arthur slashed Mel mid air. Eli slapped Mel off one of a physical fighters greatest supports: the ground.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 20, 2018 ---

By the way king has also been knocked out in a very similar manner to eli I believe