Discussion Elizabeth

[Shadowlord123]

It has to be Merlin. Trust me, she just forgot.

Side Note: Me too, man. At least he wasn't a bitch unlike Mael.

 

[tonyplox]

It has to be Merlin. Trust me, she just forgot.

Side Note: Me too, man. At least he wasn't a bitch unlike Mael.

No doubt. Merlin forgot who placed the curse so she lied to both clans.

That sadistic and cold hearted bastard needs to come back pls. Peronia even thought he was well endowed and Mael mustve lost that in regaining his memories XD

 

[Gojo Satoru]

There’s still no way to tell how strong Elizabeth is.

Nakaba said she’s potentially Arch-angel level or stronger in a QnA and Mael stated that she was comparable to OG Meliodas and Ludoshel and if the wing size thing in the series is still a thing her wings are about the same size as Ludoshel and Mael.

From what we’ve seen she is strong no doubt but i’d say she and Ludoshel are on roughly the same level. But remember all the Arch-angel have graces, Elizabeth doesn’t. So if she is really that close to Ludoshel and Mael in power that says something

 

[Aurelius]

There’s still no way to tell how strong Elizabeth is.

Nakaba said she’s potentially Arch-angel level or stronger in a QnA and Mael stated that she was comparable to OG Meliodas and Ludoshel and if the wing size thing in the series is still a thing her wings are about the same size as Ludoshel and Mael.

From what we’ve seen she is strong no doubt but i’d say she and Ludoshel are on roughly the same level. But remember all the Arch-angel have graces, Elizabeth doesn’t. So if she is really that close to Ludoshel and Mael in power that says something

Most of her power is magic. She’s the best healer and has some powerful ark based attacks. But if she went head to head with Ludo or Mael, she would get washed pretty easily.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Most of her power is magic. She’s the best healer and has some powerful ark based attacks. But if she went head to head with Ludo or Mael, she would get washed pretty easily.

She wouldn't get washed or defeated that easily.

Sure, since Goddesses are somewhat resistant to their own light element and the AA's have graces, Ludo and Mael could defeat her, 90% definite in a given 1v1 match since her much more powerful magic is less effective here.

It would be mid-high difficulty at most. They'd win, but who says Elizabeth couldn't make it hard for them?

 

[kkck]

From what I can tell... in terms of pure PL elizabeth easily outclasses at a minimum sariel and tarmiel. Elizabeth at her height clocks at a point where she can even push back DK zeldris (though not full power DK zeldris). That's easily among the top feats of pure power in the entirety of the series. That along with her capacity to hold back 2 induras simultaneously, which even ludoshiel couldn't do. My guess would be that elizabeth clocks at at least 200k....

 

[Shadowlord123]

Elizabeth is definitely powerful. In terms of pure power and overall PL she should be up there with Ludoshel and Mael (this last one depending on the time of the day). She made two Induras of Favor work hard to resist her power, the same Induras of Favor that were overpowering a casual Ludo (not full power though, since he was about to do something before she interrupted, not to mention the techniques he used later looked more powerful) without issues. Mael himself stated that she was among the most powerful warriors of the clan alongside him and Ludo and bitchslapped the hell out of a weakened DK Zeldris in her human form. It's safe to say that she doesn't lack the power.

The problem is still the same as always, though. How good are her battle capabilities? How durable is she? How fast is she and how fast can she react? All in all: how good is her overall battle prowess? The only thing she has done during the whole series is shooting beams of light and Ark the shit out of dudes who underestimated her and didn't even bother to take her seriously. We've never seen Elizabeth fight. She's definitely portrayed as powerful, but even as of now we don't even know how she develops in a fight 1 vs 1 and thus we can't measure her strength properly.

As of now, Mael and Ludoshel would beat her in my books. Not because she lacks the raw power, rather it would be because her lack of shown battle prowess. Hopefully we can see her fight for real even if it's only one time (even though I'm a little skeptical about that at this point).

 

[Aurelius]

She wouldn't get washed or defeated that easily.

Sure, since Goddesses are somewhat resistant to their own light element and the AA's have graces, Ludo and Mael could defeat her, 90% definite in a given 1v1 match since her much more powerful magic is less effective here.

It would be mid-high difficulty at most. They'd win, but who says Elizabeth couldn't make it hard for them?

I know you're an Elizabeth fan but check out @Shadowlord123 post. It wouldn't be that Elizabeth lacks raw power, but more about her combat prowess. Ludo could just blitz the hell out of her and it would be over, while Mael is a powerhouse. And as you said due to them having the same element, I dont really see how Elizabeth could make it hard on them. It's just not a good matchup.

 

[Merlin918]

Elizabeth is definitely powerful. In terms of pure power and overall PL she should be up there with Ludoshel and Mael (this last one depending on the time of the day). She made two Induras of Favor work hard to resist her power, the same Induras of Favor that were overpowering a casual Ludo (not full power though, since he was about to do something before she interrupted, not to mention the techniques he used later looked more powerful) without issues. Mael himself stated that she was among the most powerful warriors of the clan alongside him and Ludo and bitchslapped the hell out of a weakened DK Zeldris in her human form. It's safe to say that she doesn't lack the power.

The problem is still the same as always, though. How good are her battle capabilities? How durable is she? How fast is she and how fast can she react? All in all: how good is her overall battle prowess? The only thing she has done during the whole series is shooting beams of light and Ark the shit out of dudes who underestimated her and didn't even bother to take her seriously. We've never seen Elizabeth fight. She's definitely portrayed as powerful, but even as of now we don't even know how she develops in a fight 1 vs 1 and thus we can't measure her strength properly.

As of now, Mael and Ludoshel would beat her in my books. Not because she lacks the raw power, rather it would be because her lack of shown battle prowess. Hopefully we can see her fight for real even if it's only one time (even though I'm a little skeptical about that at this point).

The reason she lacks 1v1 capability is the same as ever, Nakaba doesn't want to draw her getting hurt, or he just doesn't want to draw her fighting evenly with an enemy. It's the Damsel in Distress syndrome. Same thing happened to Diane, with King getting the John Wick power up while she remained useless. Hell, even Merlin is somehow being super useless now against the DK, even though she should be able to stock up 100+ spells with infinity and just destroy the DK the moment he turns inversion off. And she isn't even in a direct romantic relationship with anyone.

So why does Nakaba go back and forth between Elizabeth bodying DK for exactly 1 panel to her standing in the fodder cube? Since if she fought for any extended period of time she might have to actually get hit. However, that doesn't make sense on further analysis, as others like Merascylla have been able to do this by just using overpowered magical barriers and not getting directly hit. At that rate, it's probably just due to Nakaba's bias that he wants her to be a Damsel in Distress even though she should be one of the most useful people there, being able to damage him even while inversion is on via healing.

Part of it is probably also because of fight complexity reasons, though. Just try to imagine both choreographing and drawing a 10 vs 1 fight with 1 week for every 20 pages. He should take more breaks so he has time to do it well, and I don't know why he doesn't tbh, but this is probably a major part of why Elizabeth has remained less relevant. Her doing moves like healing the others is way simpler to plan out than having her join in on the attacking.

If Nakaba does plan on showing extensive 1v1 capabilities for her, it will probably happen if the SD shows up and Elizabeth awakens to a similar 'god mode' power up as Meliodas has. It would at least be logically consistent, if their lineage is what makes them have the potential to go god mode like their parents. Moreover, it will be way easier for Nakaba to show her unique skills and fighting style if she is doing a 2v2, 2v1, or 1v1 against SD/DK or just the SD alone. Otherwise, it is not that likely he will show this.

 

[OtakuFreak]

The problem is still the same as always, though. How good are her battle capabilities? How durable is she? How fast is she and how fast can she react? All in all: how good is her overall battle prowess?

Whilst we haven't been shown these capabilities, which is definitely an issues, Nakaba has implied through multiple characters that she is a competent fighter. Apparently Meliodas seemed to not take her serious and ended up regretting his decision in a ''world of pain''. Sure, Meliodas holds back pretty much all the time, but for him to regret that choice heavily implies she pretty much had comparable skills to a top tier fighter.

She is also nicknamed ''Bloody Eli'' - which may be just a reference to slaughtering fodder demons, but it does suggest she's also a competent fighter.

I get the questioning, but when Nakaba confirmed she's AA tier, which encompasses raw power and overall fighting ability, and she's been told to have fought Meliodas and other top tier characters, why underestimate her?

At minimum she'd be at the same level combat wise with Sariel/Tarmiel, but in my eyes she's equal/very comparable to Ludoshel. The only issue Elizabeth has is her attitude to battle, she has the skills/power, but due to her peaceful attitude to others, it hinders her capabilities usually.

I mean she went from peaceful mode getting one-tapped by base derriere to hypothetically taking multiple hits from 2 Gods, even if one of them is utterly pathetic.

know you're an Elizabeth fan but check out @Shadowlord123 post. It wouldn't be that Elizabeth lacks raw power, but more about her combat prowess. Ludo could just blitz the hell out of her and it would be over, while Mael is a powerhouse. And as you said due to them having the same element, I dont really see how Elizabeth could make it hard on them. It's just not a good matchup.

I think people place too much emphasis on the ''well Ludoshel's faster, so she can't do anything''. Sure, he can outmanoeuvre her due to his grace which embodies immense speed, but a fight doesn't just involve speed.

Additionally, Ludoshel's ark is just as ineffective against Elizabeth as it is vice-versa, but even at a weaker level due to having inferior magical power. Besides his magic which has been formed into blades/swords, what does Ludoshel have that can be effective against Elizabeth? We've seen him use his grace offensively, but that was once and it was against Zeldris, who had magical immunity... so how effective is his grace for power (I.E we know it's good for speed, but what about attacking?)

Sure, Ludoshel would win most of the time against Elizabeth, but it wouldn't be easy. In fact, I'd argue Elizabeth could just play on the defensive and be untouchable, but that's a reach.

As for Mael, if it's noon or even close to it (10 AM - 11 AM) - Yeah, Elizabeth can't do much against the sun grace, but if it's midnight or a period of the day where sun isn't active or very influential, then he has a worse time than Ludoshel given he has no active grace/has weaker ark. Base Mael VS Elizabeth seems pretty equal to me.

TL.DR - Ludoshel would win against Elizabeth 7/10 times I'd say. Mael (Noon) 10/10 (Duh). Base Mael, equal chance (5/5)

 

[Aurelius]

Whilst we haven't been shown these capabilities, which is definitely an issues, Nakaba has implied through multiple characters that she is a competent fighter. Apparently Meliodas seemed to not take her serious and ended up regretting his decision in a ''world of pain''. Sure, Meliodas holds back pretty much all the time, but for him to regret that choice heavily implies she pretty much had comparable skills to a top tier fighter.

She is also nicknamed ''Bloody Eli'' - which may be just a reference to slaughtering fodder demons, but it does suggest she's also a competent fighter.

I get the questioning, but when Nakaba confirmed she's AA tier, which encompasses raw power and overall fighting ability, and she's been told to have fought Meliodas and other top tier characters, why underestimate her?

At minimum she'd be at the same level combat wise with Sariel/Tarmiel, but in my eyes she's equal/very comparable to Ludoshel. The only issue Elizabeth has is her attitude to battle, she has the skills/power, but due to her peaceful attitude to others, it hinders her capabilities usually.

I mean she went from peaceful mode getting one-tapped by base derriere to hypothetically taking multiple hits from 2 Gods, even if one of them is utterly pathetic.



I think people place too much emphasis on the ''well Ludoshel's faster, so she can't do anything''. Sure, he can outmanoeuvre her due to his grace which embodies immense speed, but a fight doesn't just involve speed.

Additionally, Ludoshel's ark is just as ineffective against Elizabeth as it is vice-versa, but even at a weaker level due to having inferior magical power. Besides his magic which has been formed into blades/swords, what does Ludoshel have that can be effective against Elizabeth? We've seen him use his grace offensively, but that was once and it was against Zeldris, who had magical immunity... so how effective is his grace for power (I.E we know it's good for speed, but what about attacking?)

Sure, Ludoshel would win most of the time against Elizabeth, but it wouldn't be easy. In fact, I'd argue Elizabeth could just play on the defensive and be untouchable, but that's a reach.

As for Mael, if it's noon or even close to it (10 AM - 11 AM) - Yeah, Elizabeth can't do much against the sun grace, but if it's midnight or a period of the day where sun isn't active or very influential, then he has a worse time than Ludoshel given he has no active grace/has weaker ark. Base Mael VS Elizabeth seems pretty equal to me.

TL.DR - Ludoshel would win against Elizabeth 7/10 times I'd say. Mael (Noon) 10/10 (Duh). Base Mael, equal chance (5/5)

I think you’re underestimating Ludos speed advantage, it is a massive advantage. Zeldris with his swordsmanship(before Ominous Nebula) was at a slight disadvantage against him. I just think Ludoshel is an awful matchup for her. But that doesn’t mean she isn’t in the same tier as him. Both can be true. Kinda like Ban and King, both are similar in power, but Ban can’t use his abilities on King due to King having no physical strength.

What you said about Mael is right, and I was thinking Mael with Sun.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Whilst we haven't been shown these capabilities, which is definitely an issues, Nakaba has implied through multiple characters that she is a competent fighter. Apparently Meliodas seemed to not take her serious and ended up regretting his decision in a ''world of pain''. Sure, Meliodas holds back pretty much all the time, but for him to regret that choice heavily implies she pretty much had comparable skills to a top tier fighter.

She is also nicknamed ''Bloody Eli'' - which may be just a reference to slaughtering fodder demons, but it does suggest she's also a competent fighter.

I get the questioning, but when Nakaba confirmed she's AA tier, which encompasses raw power and overall fighting ability, and she's been told to have fought Meliodas and other top tier characters, why underestimate her?

At minimum she'd be at the same level combat wise with Sariel/Tarmiel, but in my eyes she's equal/very comparable to Ludoshel. The only issue Elizabeth has is her attitude to battle, she has the skills/power, but due to her peaceful attitude to others, it hinders her capabilities usually.

I mean she went from peaceful mode getting one-tapped by base derriere to hypothetically taking multiple hits from 2 Gods, even if one of them is utterly pathetic.

I get your point. Multiple statements from the story suggest that she's also a competent fighter, but we don't know to which extent. As you said, Meliodas has always been holding back, he has never fought seriously (at least on panel) so Elizabeth actually damaging him when he's fucking around is a good feat that says that she isn't helpless at all in battle, but it doesn't serve to determine how good are her battle capabilities IMO.

Regarding the versus, it's one of these bad matchups that don't really show the true extent of her power. Ludoshel's PoL magic is useless on Elizabeth, and the opposite is true too. If magic is useless, the only thing that remains that can be effective is physical strength, battle skill, durability, speed. etc. I don't think you're going to deny that Ludoshel surpasses her in all of these categories going by current feats. That's why I say that if Ludo and Eli would engage in a battle (with the current feats we have) I see Ludo always winning. The same goes for Mael too. If those two were actually demons, Eli could actually win since her magic would be effective against them. The problem with Eli is that the little she has shown has been always magic. We don't have anything that makes us assume that she's a monster on the other departments. If her magic is useless on battle, she'll probably be useless too. She doesn't have more cards to play that we know as of now. Of course, I could be wrong and maybe she's a monster too on the other areas, but as of now, it is what it is.

Nonetheless, I still put her on the same level as Ludo, since like I said, this matchup doesn't really reflect the true extent of her power. When she shows more (Nakaba said she's potentially above the AA, which makes me think he has something in mind for her) she may go up.

 

[Undina]

I get your point. Multiple statements from the story suggest that she's also a competent fighter, but we don't know to which extent. As you said, Meliodas has always been holding back, he has never fought seriously (at least on panel) so Elizabeth actually damaging him when he's fucking around is a good feat that says that she isn't helpless at all in battle, but it doesn't serve to determine how good are her battle capabilities IMO.

Regarding the versus, it's one of these bad matchups that don't really show the true extent of her power. Ludoshel's PoL magic is useless on Elizabeth, and the opposite is true too. If magic is useless, the only thing that remains that can be effective is physical strength, battle skill, durability, speed. etc. I don't think you're going to deny that Ludoshel surpasses her in all of these categories going by current feats. That's why I say that if Ludo and Eli would engage in a battle (with the current feats we have) I see Ludo always winning. The same goes for Mael too. If those two were actually demons, Eli could actually win since her magic would be effective against them. The problem with Eli is that the little she has shown has been always magic. We don't have anything that makes us assume that she's a monster on the other departments. If her magic is useless on battle, she'll probably be useless too. She doesn't have more cards to play that we know as of now. Of course, I could be wrong and maybe she's a monster too on the other areas, but as of now, it is what it is.

Nonetheless, I still put her on the same level as Ludo, since like I said, this matchup doesn't really reflect the true extent of her power. When she shows more (Nakaba said she's potentially above the AA, which makes me think he has something in mind for her) she may go up.

The issues I find with these backs and forths is not acknowledging the likely potency of various individual skills, if not abilities. Goddesses have been shown to also use different skills from one another so far, and the Graces themselves are in and of themselves individual abilities bestowed on the AAs by Elizabeth's mother. Ludo definitely has magic based speed, just like Elizabeth's enhanced strength(like for carrying Hawk and Diane around) are also magic imbued. Which means that even if both use magic, they can use it to different ends and with different levels of effectiveness. So far we haven't seen other goddesses employing skills like Hikari Are, which looks like Purge taken to 11, The Ordeals of Jonah, or that emotional persuasion skill that is not BoB. Nor Tranquilise, IIRC. We've seen Elizabeth enchanting her Ark into a Demon's attack, it's closer to a Demon X Goddess merged skill than even the attack their parents used to kill them in their first lives.
There is diversity among Goddesses' power and skills and even extent of ability. I refuse to believe Elizabeth wasn't verging on a further PU during her life as a Goddess until Nakaba officially takes back those eight wings he drew her with when she cast her energy triskele to fuel her Hikari Are used on the 2 Induras.
And with so many(basically double the number) and rather big wings, Elizabeth should manage to top even the 2 top AAs and that's what Nakaba meant as "equal or superior".

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 29, 2019 ---

her 2 OG abilities are

1. Getting Kidnapped

2. Being saved

3. Repeat

Oh wait that's 3

1. Based on Chandler's and most of the Demon Clan's knowledge, y'know, those who dubbed her Bloodstained Ellie in the first place, she is the ultimate kidnapper and hostage holder, even if Meliodas is confirmed to be the ultimate masochist as well. It's your word against the Demon Clan's
2. They're only paying her back for the saving she does in turn Besides, they all owe her interests, based on how crazy powerful her healing is.
3. She's only been kidnapped twice canonically, plenty fewer times than Meliodas...again, if we're to believe your favourite clan.
4. The fact that she twice spanked AM Mel, who, in turn, is able to spank The One, who, in turn, needs a very specific time of day to be able to do something similar against said AM Mel says a lot on the humanoid characters' power ranking in Nabaka's opinion. Nabaka didn't take back the "equal or superior to the AAs" matter at all.
5. Her main abilities remain those listed above so far. And apparently, Mel needs at least one of them to support his DK OPnessWhile she's not even SD

Spoiler: Why are you feeding my post?!

 

[Commanderaxe]

The issues I find with these backs and forths is not acknowledging the likely potency of various individual skills, if not abilities. Goddesses have been shown to also use different skills from one another so far, and the Graces themselves are in and of themselves individual abilities bestowed on the AAs by Elizabeth's mother. Ludo definitely has magic based speed, just like Elizabeth's enhanced strength(like for carrying Hawk and Diane around) are also magic imbued. Which means that even if both use magic, they can use it to different ends and with different levels of effectiveness. So far we haven't seen other goddesses employing skills like Hikari Are, which looks like Purge taken to 11, The Ordeals of Jonah, or that emotional persuasion skill that is not BoB. Nor Tranquilise, IIRC. We've seen Elizabeth enchanting her Ark into a Demon's attack, it's closer to a Demon X Goddess merged skill than even the attack their parents used to kill them in their first lives.
There is diversity among Goddesses' power and skills and even extent of ability. I refuse to believe Elizabeth wasn't verging on a further PU during her life as a Goddess until Nakaba officially takes back those eight wings he drew her with when she cast her energy triskele to fuel her Hikari Are used on the 2 Induras.
And with so many(basically the double number) and rather big wings, Elizabeth should manage to top even the 2 top AAs and that's what Nakaba meant as "equal or superior".

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 29, 2019 ---

1. Based on Chandler's and most of the Demon Clan's knowledge, y'know, those who dubbed her Bloodstained Ellie in the first place, she is the ultimate kidnapper and hostage holder, even if Meliodas is confirmed to be the ultimate masochist as well. It's your word against the Demon Clan's
2. They're only paying her back for the saving she does in turn Besides, they all owe her interests, based on how crazy powerful her healing is.
3. She's only been kidnapped twice canonically, plenty fewer times than Meliodas...again, if we're to believe your favourite clan.
4. The fact that she twice spanked AM Mel, who, in turn, is able to spank The One, who, in turn, needs a very specific time of day to be able to do something similar against said AM Mel says a lot on the humanoid characters' power ranking in Nabaka's opinion. Nabaka didn't take back the "equal or superior to the AAs" matter at all.
5. Her main abilities remain those listed above so far. And apparently, Mel needs at least one of them to support his DK OPnessWhile she's not even SD

Spoiler: Why are you feeding my post?!

Ah, yes, Superior or equal to the AA's and then proceeds to have to hide behind the sins the majority of the fight. My my is she so OP. PS:, he said rival, not superior

 

[Undina]

Ah, yes, Superior to the AA's and then proceeds to have to hide behind the sins the majority of the fight. My my is she so OP

Well, she's doing what DK Mel is doing, letting the kids play. Was there supposed to be a point to your retort?!

 

[Commanderaxe]

Well, she's doing what DK Mel is doing, letting the kids play. Was there supposed to be a point to your retort?!

Yea but Mel is actually still fighting with his fellow sins and not hiding behind his bodyguards

 

[Undina]

Yea but Mel is actually still fighting with his fellow sins and not hiding behind his bodyguards

Nope, Mel is standing around pretending to be a windshield. He wouldn't want Ellie or Gelda-nee-san's hair to get dissarrayed, there'd be hell to pay for him and Zel afterwards

 

[OtakuFreak]

Ah, yes, Superior or equal to the AA's and then proceeds to have to hide behind the sins the majority of the fight. My my is she so OP. PS:, he said rival, not superior

Mel is god tier and can 1v1 the DK

Yet stands around doing nothing

Does it mean hes weak? No, just nakabas shitty writing.

Same applies to elizabeth

 

[Commanderaxe]

Mel is god tier and can 1v1 the DK

Yet stands around doing nothing

Does it mean hes weak? No, just nakabas shitty writing.

Same applies to elizabeth

There's a difference between holding back and doing jack shit. Mel is fighting, but holding back

 

[OtakuFreak]

There's a difference between holding back and doing jack shit. Mel is fighting, but holding back

How does jack shit refer to Elizabeth when:

-She already embarrassed the Demon King individually.

-Helped Meliodas with a combo attack

-Jebaited the DK and allowed Merlin a free hit

-Is holding Gelda.