Discussion Emperors vs Admirals vs Commanders

[Windfall Island]

He was still the WSM so him being old is moot. What kind of headcanon is "but this WB was far below Yonko lvl?" The dude made the marine scared children and took em all on.

And no, he didn't temproailry Ko Akainu since the latter got up right away with no severe injuries. Just a couple scratches.

Admirals are >>>> YC1 aside from Beckmann.

How you deny and dismiss the numerous examples of Oda telling us that the 4 Yonko and 4 Admirals are on the same level is beyond me.

That is not a headcanon coz both Marco & Crocodile commented on how much he had deteriorated in strength & reaction time. All this WSM hype that he had was not backed up in MF right from the beginning & that is what Marco & Crocodile are saying. His sickness & being wired up with all medical instruments imply heavily that he had weakend.

Old WB is WSM but the Old & Sick WB is clearly weaker.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2020 ---

But wouldn't Marco regenerate?

Kizaru blew him to pieces, yet he regenerated. I don't think Kaido's weapon would do worse.

Any answer to this would be a speculation at this point.
There is a strong case for Marco to regenerate but lets not forget that a 20 years earlier kaido(potentially much weaker than the current one) his one attack on Oden was game over for Oden too.
I know Oden did not have Marco's fruit lol.
Let's wait to find it out how that goes.

 

[Ramen]

That is not a headcanon coz both Marco & Crocodile commented on how much he had deteriorated in strength & reaction time. All this WSM hype that he had was not backed up in MF right from the beginning & that is what Marco & Crocodile are saying.

And according to Sengoku then yes, it is headcanon. Crocodile wouldn't know lol.

Old WB is WSM but the Old & Sick WB is clearly weaker.

Headcanon again. He's weaker than his prime but stop making it seem like he's fodder lol.

 

[Windfall Island]

And according to Sengoku then yes, it is headcanon. Crocodile wouldn't know lol.



Headcanon again. He's weaker than his prime but stop making it seem like he's fodder lol.

Okay mate , lets agree to disagree . Luckily for us , One Piece has lot more than just powerscaling so see you in other topics & threads lol

 

[Fox666]

Any answer to this would be a speculation at this point.
There is a strong case for Marco to regenerate but lets not forget that a 20 years earlier kaido(potentially much weaker than the current one) his one attack on Oden was game over for Oden too.
I know Oden did not have Marco's fruit lol.
Let's wait to find it out how that goes.

On theory, if Kizaru blew half of Oden's head like he did to Marco, wouldn't that also be game over for Oden?

 

[Windfall Island]

On theory, if Kizaru blew half of Oden's head like he did to Marco, wouldn't that also be game over for Oden?

In one of the anime openings , a very useful aspect of CoA lvl 2 (the lvl of haki shown by sentomaru) was displayed by Luffy.
Luffy was just unaffected & went through Kaido's boro breath coz of that unharmed.

My point is that anyone who knows CoA lvl 2 haki can similarly go past Kaido's boro breath, Akainu's Magma , Kizaru's & Aokiji's long range DF based attacks.
So if Oden knew that then Kizaru won't be able to do any of that in the first place.


If we consider a character's overall strength package as one which is a combination of his base stats(raw power,raw stamina,speed,reaction time,intelligence etc) + his haki + his DF etc etc then none of these arguments that most ppl are making pop up.
Only when we go into only DF strength or only raw strength etc (basically just picking up anyone component from the entire strength package unit) is when several wrong notions get created.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2020 ---

On theory, if Kizaru blew half of Oden's head like he did to Marco, wouldn't that also be game over for Oden?

In conclusion what i am saying is that only when you pick just one component of a character's entire strength unit (like you have picked just the DF component) is when you might think such an argument is a fair one. But its not coz a character's strength is his entire package.

 

[Fox666]

In one of the anime openings , a very useful aspect of CoA lvl 2 (the lvl of haki shown by sentomaru) was displayed by Luffy.
Luffy was just unaffected & went through Kaido's boro breath coz of that unharmed.

That's an anime-only scene.

AFAIK, the manga has consistently shown that Haki doesn't protect someone from fire, lasers, freezing, etc.

 

[M3J]

Wasn't the old and sick Whitebeard still hyped and feared by other characters? He's definitely much stronger than fodder and likely could beat the current Luffy.

 

[hokageji]

But again, why can't the Emperors try to find a way to draw out the admirals and pick them off one by one?

From Kaido's description, he was a handful to the navy, perhaps even the admirals. But the reason is all the yonko have their territories in the new world. We did see Scotch in a winter island, dont think that was Wano, so Kaido has some territory outside Wano as well. Big Mama controls Fishmen along with totoland islands. Under Akainu, the navy have stepped up their game in the new world and maybe we'll see action going forward, but navy controls everything outside this realm.

As a military, Kaido's might isnt likely to be strong enough to take over paradise, but surely, the alliance with Mama makes them a threat. The people who take up the admiral title are amongst the strongest, but we know a lot of other VA who could be as strong, so them united will pose a strong defense to Kaido.

 

[XXGenesis]

But again, why can't the Emperors try to find a way to draw out the admirals and pick them off one by one?

SO basically, the Emperors are not > admirals because even if they won, they'd likely suffer losses. An entire organization shouldn't stop the Emperors if they really are as strong as readers hype them up to be, especially if they can try to draw out an admiral to come alone or with a small fleet.

I mean, I mentioned Whitebeard being sick and injured in the post you quoted.

This nuance shouldn’t be so complicated. Forget what READERS hype up. Follow the context and actual facts of the Story.

WG controls the World. How? Initially it’s unknown, aside from Alliances/Cooperation of dozens of Countries; They have an Army. It’s called the Navy. Their soldiers are called Marines.

They have the worlds resources to plunder & at their finger tips. I.e Ships, Weapons, Technology(Vega Punk or not), Bases, Command post etc...

Admiral is a Title. Not a power level, there are none in One Piece. But Top tiers hold some type of title that is relevant to their status in the World.

An Admiral is 1 of 3 of the Navy’s Strongest Soldier. Other stronger Marines may exist but they will be acknowledged for being capable of holding such title..I.E Garp, Tokkiko, forgot the other VA’s name.

Pirates are literally outlawing individuals who set sail, & fly a Jolly Roger flag. Whatever their adventure & endeavors not getting snuffed out before gathering strong crew mates to survive the world in and of itself is a feat, whether it’s other Pirates, Marines, bandits or Armed forces from a Country .

Rocks had the most dangerous crew ever! This Pirate crew was straight bad news! They were disbanded because of The future PK, & his Rival in the Marines Garp. Also I’m sure what WB mentioned about having too many Chief like personalities screwed the crew over...

Those same Chief like personalities of that Crew became Great Pirate Captains themselves. They became so great they established territories, allies & Armada Size Crew to the point they are referred to as Emperors.

The Emperors have relation to each other but they are Pirates/Criminals/Outlaws. Each control their own territories & mini army with their own goals & ambitions; Plus they are rivals to each other.

Sorry if this seemed asinine. But you are ranking the Titles it seems & not the individuals.

An Emperor is either equal to or greater than an Admiral. As for the power of the Title & it’s full brunt. Admirals have more because they are backed by the World & not just a giant crew & few commanders.

Assassinating a Admiral through plotting would be hard as hell. & would disrupt the power balance.

The question more so lies on the Wolrd Governmet. As to why they haven’t found a way to dismantle the Yonkou’s. It’s because they are too many Yonkou’s who can & will retaliate with the power structure now shifted; The loser will have to run a gauntlet, start to lose in an arms race; & be vulnerable.

Yonkou won’t risk it. Aside from Ace execution. WG won’t risk it, by losing their grip on the world.

 

[M3J]

From Kaido's description, he was a handful to the navy, perhaps even the admirals. But the reason is all the yonko have their territories in the new world. We did see Scotch in a winter island, dont think that was Wano, so Kaido has some territory outside Wano as well. Big Mama controls Fishmen along with totoland islands. Under Akainu, the navy have stepped up their game in the new world and maybe we'll see action going forward, but navy controls everything outside this realm.

As a military, Kaido's might isnt likely to be strong enough to take over paradise, but surely, the alliance with Mama makes them a threat. The people who take up the admiral title are amongst the strongest, but we know a lot of other VA who could be as strong, so them united will pose a strong defense to Kaido.

I feel he was more than that because the Marines were unable to execute him no matter what they tried.

This nuance shouldn’t be so complicated. Forget what READERS hype up. Follow the context and actual facts of the Story.

WG controls the World. How? Initially it’s unknown, aside from Alliances/Cooperation of dozens of Countries; They have an Army. It’s called the Navy. Their soldiers are called Marines.

They have the worlds resources to plunder & at their finger tips. I.e Ships, Weapons, Technology(Vega Punk or not), Bases, Command post etc...

Admiral is a Title. Not a power level, there are none in One Piece. But Top tiers hold some type of title that is relevant to their status in the World.

An Admiral is 1 of 3 of the Navy’s Strongest Soldier. Other stronger Marines may exist but they will be acknowledged for being capable of holding such title..I.E Garp, Tokkiko, forgot the other VA’s name.

Pirates are literally outlawing individuals who set sail, & fly a Jolly Roger flag. Whatever their adventure & endeavors not getting snuffed out before gathering strong crew mates to survive the world in and of itself is a feat, whether it’s other Pirates, Marines, bandits or Armed forces from a Country .

Rocks had the most dangerous crew ever! This Pirate crew was straight bad news! They were disbanded because of The future PK, & his Rival in the Marines Garp. Also I’m sure what WB mentioned about having too many Chief like personalities screwed the crew over...

Those same Chief like personalities of that Crew became Great Pirate Captains themselves. They became so great they established territories, allies & Armada Size Crew to the point they are referred to as Emperors.

The Emperors have relation to each other but they are Pirates/Criminals/Outlaws. Each control their own territories & mini army with their own goals & ambitions; Plus they are rivals to each other.

Sorry if this seemed asinine. But you are ranking the Titles it seems & not the individuals.

An Emperor is either equal to or greater than an Admiral. As for the power of the Title & it’s full brunt. Admirals have more because they are backed by the World & not just a giant crew & few commanders.

Assassinating a Admiral through plotting would be hard as hell. & would disrupt the power balance.

The question more so lies on the Wolrd Governmet. As to why they haven’t found a way to dismantle the Yonkou’s. It’s because they are too many Yonkou’s who can & will retaliate with the power structure now shifted; The loser will have to run a gauntlet, start to lose in an arms race; & be vulnerable.

Yonkou won’t risk it. Aside from Ace execution. WG won’t risk it, by losing their grip on the world.

All this says to me is that Yonkou are not superior to the admirals, or at least to the original three admirals. They might win, but they're not strong enough to try and plan to get an admiral isolated and take them out with their armies.

 

[XXGenesis]

All this says to me is that Yonkou are not superior to the admirals, or at least to the original three admirals. They might win, but they're not strong enough to try and plan to get an admiral isolated and take them out with their armies.

Exactly. Any Scenario leads to a break in the power balance. WG will use 3 Admirals vs 1 Yonkou. It’s too hard to isolate 1 Admiral for assassination. In an isolated 1 vs 1 A Yonkou should win(my opinion).

Either way I say the Yonkou have better showings than the Admirals. OG admirals were strong & their logia’s are top tier. They are fearsome. But to achieve the title Yonkou is much much more difficult than raising ranks inside the Marine’s.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Wasn't the old and sick Whitebeard still hyped and feared by other characters? He's definitely much stronger than fodder and likely could beat the current Luffy.

Him being old and sick was just a narrative function to make him not wipe the floor with the opponents he had. It was a way for Oda to make his legacy save face- there is NO chance we see anything about Prime Whitebeard beyond his clashes with Roger and Oden. The legend of the World's Strongest Man can forever remain intact while at the same time showing that NOBODY is truly invincible.

Shame about his actual face, though.

 

[HereNThere]

Shame about his actual face, though.

So what your saying is he saved face, but couldn't save his face?

 

[M3J]

Exactly. Any Scenario leads to a break in the power balance. WG will use 3 Admirals vs 1 Yonkou. It’s too hard to isolate 1 Admiral for assassination. In an isolated 1 vs 1 A Yonkou should win(my opinion).

Either way I say the Yonkou have better showings than the Admirals. OG admirals were strong & their logia’s are top tier. They are fearsome. But to achieve the title Yonkou is much much more difficult than raising ranks inside the Marine’s.

It can't be that hard. Didn't WG just send admirals to different locations from each other? And while they did use 3 admirals against Whitebeard, Whitebeard was unable to beat any of them.

you can't compare becoming an Emperor to becoming an admiral, though. Apparently you could be the strongest but still not be considered an emperor without territories, although I would say it's extremely difficult because as soon as you set foot in the New World, you'll have Emperors keeping an eye and ready to gun for you if you annoy them.

At least, I'm sure it was harder for Shanks and possibly Kaidou and Blackbeard to become Emperors as they had at least two others to deal with.

Him being old and sick was just a narrative function to make him not wipe the floor with the opponents he had. It was a way for Oda to make his legacy save face- there is NO chance we see anything about Prime Whitebeard beyond his clashes with Roger and Oden. The legend of the World's Strongest Man can forever remain intact while at the same time showing that NOBODY is truly invincible.

Shame about his actual face, though.

I'm not too sure about this because Oda could have just had Whitebeard outnumbered significantly without making him sick. Though, I can see that we won't get any fight with prime Whitebeard against his equals, as Oda might not be creative enough for this and to keep the hype up for other fights.

At least his face is burned in our memories for a long time. v.v

 

[XXGenesis]

It can't be that hard. Didn't WG just send admirals to different locations from each other? And while they did use 3 admirals against Whitebeard, Whitebeard was unable to beat any of them.

Marines under Akainu’s Leadership are more Violent & aggressive.

WB was sick. Why does that not matter? Even while sick showed prowess & extreme durability

you can't compare becoming an Emperor to becoming an admiral, though. Apparently you could be the strongest but still not be considered an emperor without territories, although I would say it's extremely difficult because as soon as you set foot in the New World, you'll have Emperors keeping an eye and ready to gun for you if you annoy them.

At least, I'm sure it was harder for Shanks and possibly Kaidou and Blackbeard to become Emperors as they had at least two others to deal with.

^^^Harder life than a Marine soldier. We know of 2 new admirals that got drafted. Their endeavors won’t surpass a Yonkou’s.[/QUOTE]

 

[M3J]

Marines under Akainu’s Leadership are more Violent & aggressive.

WB was sick. Why does that not matter? Even while sick showed prowess & extreme durability




^^^Harder life than a Marine soldier. We know of 2 new admirals that got drafted. Their endeavors won’t surpass a Yonkou’s.

[/QUOTE]

True, but what about before? It seems Garp was usually going after Roger by himself, and he didn't seem to have any other powerful Marines with him when he and Roger fought the Rox Pirates.

I did mention that few posts ago... and because even when he was sick and on the verge of death, it still took tremendous amount of damage to take him down, and I didn't feel that needed mentioning.


We'll see, because Akainu really held his own against Whitebeard. I'd like to bring up Aokiji too as it was an extremely close match against Akainu, but matchup matters, and ice may not be as inconvenient for high-tier opponents as magma is.

 

[XXGenesis]

True, but what about before? It seems Garp was usually going after Roger by himself, and he didn't seem to have any other powerful Marines with him when he and Roger fought the Rox Pirates.

I did mention that few posts ago... and because even when he was sick and on the verge of death, it still took tremendous amount of damage to take him down, and I didn't feel that needed mentioning.


We'll see, because Akainu really held his own against Whitebeard. I'd like to bring up Aokiji too as it was an extremely close match against Akainu, but matchup matters, and ice may not be as inconvenient for high-tier opponents as magma is.

Well Roger had a strong ass crew. Yonkou have Empire’s..........Luffy doesn’t just have 9 strong reliable Crewmates, he has 6000 fodder to throw at someone & other strong Pirates to support him. With every Kingdom he saved as his territories(eventually)

So that’s why Garp stalked Roger. He was able to. We don’t know which Marines supported Garp while chasing Roger. Sure he had a named Marine or 2 helping with his crew.

WB not killing a Admiral keeps getting mentioned. It’s an argument that keeps coming up even after it’s been settled. WB showed how dangerous a Sick & injured Yonkou is. Akainu & BB did not face him unscathed.

 

[M3J]

Whitebeard showed how dangerous he was despite being sick and injured, not necessarily other emperors.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I don't really see any reason to think akainu was a match to WB. Not one of their confrontations ended with akainu having the upper hand. And WB had already been through a lot of shit when akainu melted half of WB's face. The only thing that can be said for akainu is that WB couldn't one shot him but otherwise every confrontation between them ended with WB pretty much instantly pummeling akainu. Akainu never actually held his own against him.

There is definitely a limit to how much marco can regenerate... But its impossible to tell how exactly the limit would work. Or what even counts as more or less damage in this case. As in, hypothetically, if two different people stab marco... does it matter which of the two people was stronger or is a stab just a stab? What happens if marco is hit by something strong enough to break him into many pieces?

because aikainu did far worse damage to whitebeard then wb did to him

AND AGAIN THE ONLY TIME WB WAS ABLE TO GET THE BETTER OF HIM WAS THROUGH A SNEAk ATTACK and even at that wb took the worse damage imo by losing damn near half his face in the exchange

you think if akainu if given the same opportunity , a clean blow to wb head, he'd have killed him, melted his entire skull and brain



honestly the admirals were damn near bossing wb in a lot of their exchanges , kizaru also did super well

kizaru pinned wb bisento , that's crazy impressive, using one foot/leg


while the admirals weren't holding back per say,but they couldn't go all out, their goal was containment and protecting marineford , see what happened to punk hazard when they went all out


and the whole demolished akainu is such a terrible take
akainu was up and ready to go , he just fell down a platform , he was able to take on the entire wb's remanents and crocodile got past them , and imiedatelty after the war chased BB's crew of which they ran away from him

( people hype shanks for getting blackbeard to stand down with his entire crew with him when a lone akainu did the same thing )

 

[Shasha23]

True, but what about before? It seems Garp was usually going after Roger by himself, and he didn't seem to have any other powerful Marines with him when he and Roger fought the Rox Pirates.

I dont know about when he fought the Rox Pirates but during chapter 0, it was shown every time Garp went after Roger he took Tsuru, Akainu, Aokiji and some of the vice admirals who were there at the war, so pretty much Garp went with a crew of powerful people with him.