Conditional Erza vs DiMaria

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

You're saying that base Tartaros Natsu > Gajeel. Do you have any proof of this? And once again, I never said that they had exactly the same HP as their enemies. Natsu could have 2200 HP, Gajeel, 2300, Torafuza 2500, and Tempesta 2000 and they would still be on the same level.

DeS Silver > LFD Natsu and was closer to Kyoka/Erza level. DeS Gray = LFD Natsu (disregarding slayer advantage). DeS Gray dealing a lot of damage to demons means that he is a demon slayer and so does extra damage to demons.

Yeah... Natsu has always been stronger than Gajeel. Not by a lot but they are not the same. Natsu even defeated Gajeel in Phantom Lord Arc. Fine, they don't have exactly the same HP. I never even implied such a thing. So Natsu could have 2000 HP for being on par with Etherious Tempesta now and Gajeel could have 2700 HP for beating Etherious Torafusa. Still doesn't make sense. The point here is that you can spin it anyway you'd like, you still don't have a good argument here. How about DF Wendy? She defeated Ezel giving her around 1800 HP and LFD Natsu is on par with Etherious Tempesta so he has around 2000 HP. I didn't know that DF Wendy ≈ LFD Natsu...

You can talk about slayer advantage all you want. Gray's attacks still don't affect Silver and vice versa. Therefore, they would be on par which would still defy your claim.

Spoiler

Interesting. It appears that not only does lying flat on the ground count as training, it makes Chelia level characters stronger than Bluenote in one encounter!

Actually withstanding gravity is one way of training. That means your body is adapting to more weight than it normally does which is essentially like lifting heavy weights on your back. Your point is invalid. Even DragonBall Z characters train by gravity, if you've ever seen the manga/anime. Either way, Wendy and Chelia were active. Never said Chelia would be stronger than Bluenote. You're putting words into my mouth just to prove your point.

Prove that Dimaria has enough offensive power to cut off Ajeel's head. Dimaria did not perform nearly as well against far weaker opponents.

You're kidding right? How hard is it to cut a thin neck off of your opponent who is stationary? I don't need to prove anything here until you understand logic.

I rank the 7 Kin as follows: Azuma > Ultear > Rustyrose > Zancrow > Meredy > Kain. Caprico is hard to rank because the limits of his human subordination powers are unclear. Caprico could potentially be stronger than Zancrow while fighting humans. Azuma, Ultear, and Rustyrose would beat both Gajeel's opponents without too much trouble. All of the 7 Kin would beat Yomazu or Kawazu in a 1v1. This is consistent with Yomazu's statement that he (alone) stands no chance against the 7 Kin. None of this shows that Yomazu + Kawazu < Zancrow.

Gajeel is weaker than Erza. Nice of you to point that out.

First of all, your list is already faulty. No wonder you think a chicken and dog can match a God Slayer. Second of all, Caprico isn't that strong and is arguably one of the weakest in the 7 Kin of Purgatory as he is a Celestial Spirit controlled by a weak mage, Zoldeo. Third, Zancrow is by far one of the strongest of the 7 Kin of Puragtory. He would be labeled the strongest without any plot induced feats from Azuma. Even if you choose to rate Azuma, there is no way Zancrow is that low. He would be 2nd, if not 3rd on the list.

How do you go from standing no chance in a 1v1 to being able to defeat your opponent in a 2v1 when your teammate is just as weak as you are? If Zancrow can beat Yomazu with No Difficulty, than with Kawazu involved, it would be Easy Difficulty if that. You are obviously dancing around at this point.

So were the words Dimaria spoke to Chelia and Wendy also instantaneous? To use any spell, a wizard must presumably gather MP and prepare to cast the spell. The fact that Kagura sensed Dimaria's MP one page before seeing the effects of Dimaria's Age Seal attack suggests that Kagura sensed Dimaria's MP from Age Seal. Even if time stops instantaneously when Dimaria releases her MP, Kagura would sense Dimaria's MP as soon as time starts again and possibly before Kagura notices that she's been attacked.

Dimaria was never seen to prepare any spell. It is very obvious when someone is preparing it like Laxus with Fairy Law, Cana with Fairy Glitter, etc. Dimaria is a Spriggan and has enough power to use it instantaneously. Kagura already sensed Dimaria's power beforehand which is what I keep saying. It wouldn't make sense for time to start again and for her say the exact same thing about Dimaria's power because she already felt it.

Kagura and Erza were as far apart during GMG as Max was from Natsu. Would you call that a league?

I still don't see how you get that logic. The gap between Max and Natsu was way greater than Kagura and Erza has ever been.

Prove that Ajeel < God Serena. No, you are simply stating your opinion of what happened, which doesn't happen to coincide with what actually happened. Natsu attacking Ajeel failed spectacularly to prevent Ajeel from attacking them back. You then attempt to excuse this by saying Natsu is stupid. On the other hand, I interpret this scene as Natsu attacking Ajeel in order to beat him, which does not require stupidity on Natsu's part.

What kind of nonsense is this? It is very clear that God Serena is stronger than Ajeel. If you didn't get that from the manga yet, I don't know how you'll be able to interpret the rest of the Alvarez Arc. There is a reason why God Serena has 8 Dragon Lacrimas in him, more than Laxus, Sting, Rogue, and Cobra will ever have combined. There is a reason why God Serena was able to solo the Gods of Ishgar and Jura. Not because they were weak but because he was just too strong. Lastly, there is a reason why Hiro Mashima decided to take him out with the use of Acnologia.

I'm using an excuse that Natsu is stupid? Since when did I call him stupid? I said he doesn't think. That just means he chooses not to use logic in battle. Never said that he was dumb. Plus, Happy knows Natsu better than you or me and he already thinks Natsu has no brains. It is obvious that Hiro Mashima portrays Natsu as that way. Stop getting offended over little things.

The gap between Kagura and Erza is equivalent to one SO boost. Which was also the gap between Natsu and Max. Since you say that Natsu one-shots Max, logically SO Erza one-shots Kagura. And Kagura > Lyon > Chelia.

If Erza could one-shot Kagura, why didn't she just use SO from the beginning and take out Kagura before Minerva came? Sure, Erza is not weak. However, she isn't as strong as you think she is.

You keep saying that Ajeel = Dimaria in physical stats repeatedly without good evidence.

Like you can prove otherwise... If anything, I've given more proof than you even did except you're still repeating the same line that you said many posts ago.

I have showed many times that Dimaria's physical stats are lower than Ajeel's. Such as base Wendy and Chelia repeatedly kicking Dimaria in the face and tanking Dimaria's attacks. You keep bringing up Dimaria WITH AGE SEAL in your comparisons, such as saying that "Dimaria can do the same and faster than Ajeel too". Dimaria's strength WITH AGE SEAL =/= Dimaria's strength without it. So you have yet to prove TO Chelia >= Erza.

No, you haven't shown anything. No panels. Just your own thinking. Base Wendy and base Chelia did nothing to Dimaria. How did you even come up with kicking in her in the face as proof of Dimaria's power when it clearly didn't affect her. Seriously, you keep twisting my words and putting words into my mouth. Read and understand my post first before you say what is on your mind. I never brought up Age Seal in this. With Age Seal, Dimaria will this with Easy Difficulty. Medium Difficulty max. If you think Ajeel is fast, you're lying to yourself or he wouldn't need Sand Golem to catch up with a vehicle. I already proved everything you asked me to prove. Now its your turn.

Oh, I thought you wrote:

Definitely not saying that Ajeel is slow and weak. And even saying that Ajeel is slow for not dodging Erza implies that Erza is slow. If Erza was fast on the other hand, your argument would be as meaningless as if you said that God Serena was slow for not dodging Acnologia. You then use this argument of Ajeel being weak (relying on the assumption that Erza is weak) to say Ajeel = Dimaria and Dimaria > Erza. Hence, you attempt to prove that Erza is weak using the assumption that Erza is weak. This is called a circular argument.

What is your point here? Did I say Ajeel is weak anywhere? No. I said he was slow. Learn to read posts. I never implied Erza is slow. Erza is average like almost any other mage. Don't even start with comparing God Serena and Acnologia. Acnologia is fast and that is not up for debate. He can blitz anyone including Ajeel and probably leave him mutilated. A worse condition than what God Serena was in. No, compared to the other high tier mages in the Alvarez Arc, Erza is average and even then, Ajeel couldn't outclass her, so he is still on the same level as Dimaria.

You posted , saying that Dimaria fighting a 2v1, regardless of how weak those two were, was an "impressive" achievement. I countered by giving examples of 2v1s that you did not consider impressive. Such as Erza vs 2x Max and Gajeel vs "two fodders". Hence, Dimaria fighting Wendy and Chelia is also not impressive simply because its a 2v1.

Dimaria fighting a DF Wendy and a Third Origin Chelia is far more impressive than beating 2 Max or Kawazu and Yamazu. DF Wendy alone can solo 2 Max, Kawazu, and Yomazu. Actually I take that back. She can defeat those 4 multiplied by 2.

Last time I checked, Natsu =/= Wendy. Can Natsu heal other people, cure poisons, and restore MP? Natsu considering using up his one-time power-up to kill Zeref on Spriggans he could otherwise beat would be incredibly stupid, even for your interpretation of Natsu.

Haha, Natsu's one-time powerup didn't even kill Zeref like I predicted even before the chapter was out. So to imply that it was on Zeref's level is invalid. Also, considering the strengths of the Spriggans, using it on them is not a waste. In fact, it would have been more beneficial. I already stated in a thread that Natsu should have used it on Invel when he had the chance. That was even before the chapter was released. Many people disagreed thinking that it would kill Zeref. Well guess what? Zeref tanked it and healed afterwards. Natsu accomplished nothing as expected. I can't believe many people are fooled by such hype.

Show me this "portrayed to not train as much as others" you speak of. Elfman "definitely trained" too: this must mean Elfman > Makarov and Gildarts, right? You have not come close to proving that Dimaria = Ajeel or Kagura = Erza. And saying it was "comedic" or "plot" is just you making excuses. You wouldn't mind if I said that Natsu meeting Gildarts while training was for "comedic" or "plot" purposes would you? Or that all of Natsu's feats were comedic plot?

Elfman is not above GiIdarts nor Makarov because those two are leagues above him. I proved both of those power rankings. I'm not going to bother to explain to someone who is in pure denial. No, Natsu was serious in his feats and showed his power. Not comedic or plot. Natsu meeting Gildarts was to show Gildarts' power. He even proved it in feats. Not comedic or plots. Erza being Guild Master though is for comedy purposes and plot. Similar to Macao being Guild Master of Fairy Tail. Make me laugh.

Erza cutting Ajeel's head off would kill him. Name the "plenty of other arcs" where FT has killed people. And once again the "plot" excuse.

So Erza can cut off Ajeel's head but Dimaria cannot? Please. Erza has the power to cut off Ajeel's head but couldn't because of the way the scenario was played out. I don't need to name all of the people FT has killed. You can look it up. Not that hard.

Define "similar", and what is the "nature of their powers"?

Similar here meaning that they are in the same tier. Neither of them is massively more powerful than the other. And when I say that they are similar in the nature of their powers, I am talking about their fighting style and combat skills. They are not too different MP wise either.

 

[iDooom]

Yeah... Natsu has always been stronger than Gajeel. Not by a lot but they are not the same. Natsu even defeated Gajeel in Phantom Lord Arc. Fine, they don't have exactly the same HP. I never even implied such a thing. So Natsu could have 2000 HP for being on par with Etherious Tempesta now and Gajeel could have 2700 HP for beating Etherious Torafusa. Still doesn't make sense. The point here is that you can spin it anyway you'd like, you still don't have a good argument here. How about DF Wendy? She defeated Ezel giving her around 1800 HP and LFD Natsu is on par with Etherious Tempesta so he has around 2000 HP. I didn't know that DF Wendy ≈ LFD Natsu...

I showed that one possible HP configuration was Natsu at 2200 HP and Gajeel at 2300, where both of them are equal overall. I would put Tartaros DF Wendy at around the same level as LFD Natsu based on her feats.

You can talk about slayer advantage all you want. Gray's attacks still don't affect Silver and vice versa. Therefore, they would be on par which would still defy your claim.

If base Wendy fought God Serena (with only wind lacrima), this would not make Wendy = God Serena just because they are both wind Dragon Slayers. If Gray and Silver couldn't damage each other, Silver would overpower Gray in CQC due to superior speed and strength.

Actually withstanding gravity is one way of training. That means your body is adapting to more weight than it normally does which is essentially like lifting heavy weights on your back. Your point is invalid. Even DragonBall Z characters train by gravity, if you've ever seen the manga/anime. Either way, Wendy and Chelia were active. Never said Chelia would be stronger than Bluenote. You're putting words into my mouth just to prove your point.

Lying flat on the ground for a few seconds = training...

If Chelia < Bluenote, we're done here as current Erza no diffs her.

You're kidding right? How hard is it to cut a thin neck off of your opponent who is stationary? I don't need to prove anything here until you understand logic.

It's pretty hard if you're using a dull penknife and your opponent is made of metal. Dimaria's offence has been pathetic compared to that of Ajeel.

First of all, your list is already faulty. No wonder you think a chicken and dog can match a God Slayer. Second of all, Caprico isn't that strong and is arguably one of the weakest in the 7 Kin of Purgatory as he is a Celestial Spirit controlled by a weak mage, Zoldeo. Third, Zancrow is by far one of the strongest of the 7 Kin of Puragtory. He would be labeled the strongest without any plot induced feats from Azuma. Even if you choose to rate Azuma, there is no way Zancrow is that low. He would be 2nd, if not 3rd on the list.

Prove that Zoldeo/Caprico was weak. Lucy, Gray, and Cana were unable to do anything to Caprico because of his magic, which Loke was immune to. Zancrow gets one or two shotted by Azuma and had worse feats that Ultear and Rustyrose. If you want to debate this you can make another thread.

How do you go from standing no chance in a 1v1 to being able to defeat your opponent in a 2v1 when your teammate is just as weak as you are? If Zancrow can beat Yomazu with No Difficulty, than with Kawazu involved, it would be Easy Difficulty if that. You are obviously dancing around at this point.

It's called teamwork, like how Natsu and Gajeel didn't instantly get fodderized by Laxus when Natsu alone did. Zancrow cannot beat Yomazu with No diff, he beats him mid diff at best. And Yomazu + Kawazu beat Zancrow extreme diff.

Dimaria was never seen to prepare any spell. It is very obvious when someone is preparing it like Laxus with Fairy Law, Cana with Fairy Glitter, etc. Dimaria is a Spriggan and has enough power to use it instantaneously. Kagura already sensed Dimaria's power beforehand which is what I keep saying. It wouldn't make sense for time to start again and for her say the exact same thing about Dimaria's power because she already felt it.

Prove that Dimaria can cast Age Seal instantly without any preparation. Well you can't because Dimaria has to think about and send signals from her brain to her jaw and click her teeth before Age Seal goes off. You do not know that Kagura sensed Dimaria's power before Age Seal instead of during or after.

I still don't see how you get that logic. The gap between Max and Natsu was way greater than Kagura and Erza has ever been.

According to you, gap between Max and Natsu = SO boost. Erza was on par with Kagura before SO. Are you saying that SO =/= SO?

What kind of nonsense is this? It is very clear that God Serena is stronger than Ajeel. If you didn't get that from the manga yet, I don't know how you'll be able to interpret the rest of the Alvarez Arc. There is a reason why God Serena has 8 Dragon Lacrimas in him, more than Laxus, Sting, Rogue, and Cobra will ever have combined. There is a reason why God Serena was able to solo the Gods of Ishgar and Jura. Not because they were weak but because he was just too strong. Lastly, there is a reason why Hiro Mashima decided to take him out with the use of Acnologia.

Do you have any proof that God Serena > Ajeel besides speculation?

I'm using an excuse that Natsu is stupid? Since when did I call him stupid? I said he doesn't think. That just means he chooses not to use logic in battle. Never said that he was dumb. Plus, Happy knows Natsu better than you or me and he already thinks Natsu has no brains. It is obvious that Hiro Mashima portrays Natsu as that way. Stop getting offended over little things.

Natsu "not thinking" is for "comedic purposes (see how this works?). Your interpretation of Natsu's behavior requires him not just to "not think", but to also squander the power-up he trained 1 year for on opponents (Ajeel and Brandish) he would beat easily with DF. Which is beyond idiotic.

If Erza could one-shot Kagura, why didn't she just use SO from the beginning and take out Kagura before Minerva came? Sure, Erza is not weak. However, she isn't as strong as you think she is.

Maybe because that would be stupid when Erza doesn't know how strong Kagura, Minerva, or a lot of other people in the tournament are. What if Erza used SO against Kagura and then ran into someone like Jura? Using up all your power for one opponent means you're screwed for other opponents.

Like you can prove otherwise... If anything, I've given more proof than you even did except you're still repeating the same line that you said many posts ago.

You haven't given any good evidence. You are still mixing in Dimaria's Age Seal when it is restricted.

No, you haven't shown anything. No panels. Just your own thinking. Base Wendy and base Chelia did nothing to Dimaria. How did you even come up with kicking in her in the face as proof of Dimaria's power when it clearly didn't affect her. Seriously, you keep twisting my words and putting words into my mouth. Read and understand my post first before you say what is on your mind. I never brought up Age Seal in this. With Age Seal, Dimaria will this with Easy Difficulty. Medium Difficulty max. If you think Ajeel is fast, you're lying to yourself or he wouldn't need Sand Golem to catch up with a vehicle. I already proved everything you asked me to prove. Now its your turn.

The very fact that base Wendy and Chelia landed hits on Dimaria means that Dimaria's speed is bad. You said "Dimaria can [kill DF Wendy] faster than Ajeel too", which would only holds true for Dimaria WITH AGE SEAL. Ajeel did not need Sand Golem to catch up with a vehicle when he can travel near instantly through the sand. He was attacking said vehicle with the Sand Golem. And vehicles aren't exactly slow.

What is your point here? Did I say Ajeel is weak anywhere? No. I said he was slow. Learn to read posts. I never implied Erza is slow. Erza is average like almost any other mage. Don't even start with comparing God Serena and Acnologia. Acnologia is fast and that is not up for debate. He can blitz anyone including Ajeel and probably leave him mutilated. A worse condition than what God Serena was in. No, compared to the other high tier mages in the Alvarez Arc, Erza is average and even then, Ajeel couldn't outclass her, so he is still on the same level as Dimaria.

You said "Ajeel was slow" and implied the same held true for the rest of his physical stats. So yes, you did say Ajeel was weak. "Erza is average" = an assumption, meaning that your argument is circular. You are admitting that your argument fails for someone as fast as Acnologia. Similarly, it fails if Erza's speed > Dimaria's speed. Once again, you are assuming Erza is weak to prove that Erza is weak.

Dimaria fighting a DF Wendy and a Third Origin Chelia is far more impressive than beating 2 Max or Kawazu and Yamazu. DF Wendy alone can solo 2 Max, Kawazu, and Yomazu. Actually I take that back. She can defeat those 4 multiplied by 2.

So what. You said Dimaria fighting Wendy and Chelia was impressive because it was a 2v1. I have proved that a 2v1 by itself =/= impressive.

Haha, Natsu's one-time powerup didn't even kill Zeref like I predicted even before the chapter was out. So to imply that it was on Zeref's level is invalid. Also, considering the strengths of the Spriggans, using it on them is not a waste. In fact, it would have been more beneficial. I already stated in a thread that Natsu should have used it on Invel when he had the chance. That was even before the chapter was released. Many people disagreed thinking that it would kill Zeref. Well guess what? Zeref tanked it and healed afterwards. Natsu accomplished nothing as expected. I can't believe many people are fooled by such hype.

Saying that Natsu didn't manage to kill Zeref in no way proves that Natsu has DF. When he fought Ajeel and Brandish, Natsu thought he could kill Zeref; that is all that matters.

Elfman is not above GiIdarts nor Makarov because those two are leagues above him. I proved both of those power rankings. I'm not going to bother to explain to someone who is in pure denial. No, Natsu was serious in his feats and showed his power. Not comedic or plot. Natsu meeting Gildarts was to show Gildarts' power. He even proved it in feats. Not comedic or plots. Erza being Guild Master though is for comedy purposes and plot. Similar to Macao being Guild Master of Fairy Tail. Make me laugh.

Erza > Chelia by leagues. You are just cherry-picking events you don't like as "comedic" and saying events you like are legitimate. Try harder.

So Erza can cut off Ajeel's head but Dimaria cannot? Please. Erza has the power to cut off Ajeel's head but couldn't because of the way the scenario was played out. I don't need to name all of the people FT has killed. You can look it up. Not that hard.

Erza beats Wendy and Chelia with more ease than non-Age Seal Dimaria does. So Erza's offense > Dimaria's offense. I've looked up... nobody. Yeah.

Similar here meaning that they are in the same tier. Neither of them is massively more powerful than the other. And when I say that they are similar in the nature of their powers, I am talking about their fighting style and combat skills. They are not too different MP wise either.

Prove that Erza is not a tier above Kagura. Combat wise they both use swords... so what? Laxus and Wendy were both Dragon Slayers; didn't make them close to equal. MP wise Erza has double that of Kagura due to SO.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I showed that one possible HP configuration was Natsu at 2200 HP and Gajeel at 2300, where both of them are equal overall. I would put Tartaros DF Wendy at around the same level as LFD Natsu based on her feats.

DF Wendy is no where near the level of LFD Natsu. Natsu used Lightning Flame Dragon Mode against enemies like Hades, Future Rogue, and more before he could activate DF at will. That was pretty much Natsu's strongest form until he was able to use DF. So even if Wendy is in DF, she wouldn't be able to fight evenly against Natsu.

If base Wendy fought God Serena (with only wind lacrima), this would not make Wendy = God Serena just because they are both wind Dragon Slayers. If Gray and Silver couldn't damage each other, Silver would overpower Gray in CQC due to superior speed and strength.

Yeah, Wendy would lose against God Serena because he is stronger than her. DeS Gray is pretty much equal to Silver MP wise. Plus, Gray is good at CQC. Silver never demonstrated anything to make him superior to Gray when fighting.

Lying flat on the ground for a few seconds = training...

If Chelia < Bluenote, we're done here as current Erza no diffs her.

The point here is that they are still active and not sitting at a guild hall wasting time. Plus, they did fight a little beforehand.

It's pretty hard if you're using a dull penknife and your opponent is made of metal. Dimaria's offence has been pathetic compared to that of Ajeel.

There is no way that comparison is even close to Dimaria's offense and Ajeel's defense. It's more like using the sharpest katana you can find while your opponent is made of skin.

Prove that Zoldeo/Caprico was weak. Lucy, Gray, and Cana were unable to do anything to Caprico because of his magic, which Loke was immune to. Zancrow gets one or two shotted by Azuma and had worse feats that Ultear and Rustyrose. If you want to debate this you can make another thread.

Zoldeo is weak. That is a given. Caprico was "possessed" by Zoldeo and nothing else but a mere Celestial Spirit. Gray who is stronger than Loke could obviously take him out. That Human Subordination Magic is a real magic but the reason that it makes humans weaker were all lies fed by Loke to prevent Lucy from staying there. He didn't want Zoldeo/Caprico to notice Lucy as Layla Heartfilia's daughter.

Spoiler

It's called teamwork, like how Natsu and Gajeel didn't instantly get fodderized by Laxus when Natsu alone did. Zancrow cannot beat Yomazu with No diff, he beats him mid diff at best. And Yomazu + Kawazu beat Zancrow extreme diff.

Zancrow can one-shot Yomazu if he really wanted to. With Kawazu it will take just a little more. I can't barely even see a Medium Difficulty fight let alone Extreme Difficulty. Natsu getting fodderized by Laxus was totally comedy purposes... How did you not get that? Even Gajeel was seen running away immediately afterwards with everyone chasing him down. Hiro Mashima made it as you are supposed to be laughing, not taking it seriously. Zancrow is already shown to overpower Natsu with his magic and withstand Makarov's grip when his hand is in Titan Form. There is no way two fodders can match that.

Prove that Dimaria can cast Age Seal instantly without any preparation. Well you can't because Dimaria has to think about and send signals from her brain to her jaw and click her teeth before Age Seal goes off. You do not know that Kagura sensed Dimaria's power before Age Seal instead of during or after.

It seems like every post from now on, you are asking for the impossible. I gave enough reasons for my claim. Why don't you provide me some legit reasons from your side unless you can't just like me because not everything is explained. First of all, this is not neuroscience. For all we know, Dimaria's activation of Time Magic could be just by clicking her teeth. Second of all, if we are to use real neuroscience or psychology in this discussion, the brain takes less than a second to transmit a signal. We're talking about 0.1 - 0.3 seconds here, which is comparative to blinking. So its still pretty much instantaneous if not almost instantaneous.

According to you, gap between Max and Natsu = SO boost. Erza was on par with Kagura before SO. Are you saying that SO =/= SO?

No, I agree that SO = SO. The boost is the same but when comparing Max and Natsu I use their full potentials. So their full potentials still have a far larger gap than Erza and Kagura.

Do you have any proof that God Serena > Ajeel besides speculation?

No, but we have no reason to believe that it is not the case. Anybody who says that God Serena is equal to Ajeel or below is clearly the minority. There is a reason why God Serena's role ended the way it did.

Natsu "not thinking" is for "comedic purposes (see how this works?). Your interpretation of Natsu's behavior requires him not just to "not think", but to also squander the power-up he trained 1 year for on opponents (Ajeel and Brandish) he would beat easily with DF. Which is beyond idiotic.

How would my interpretation have anything to do with denying the power-up he got during the 1 year timeskip? The example you're using to compare is different from the point that I was making. I said that comedy was used when everyone was terrified of Erza as Fairy Tail's Guild Master. It is true. If they really deemed her as a threat andl teamed up to fight her right then and there, they would have won. Nobody was really afraid. It was all for portraying Erza's character and for laughs.

Maybe because that would be stupid when Erza doesn't know how strong Kagura, Minerva, or a lot of other people in the tournament are. What if Erza used SO against Kagura and then ran into someone like Jura? Using up all your power for one opponent means you're screwed for other opponents.

Did I miss something here? When did it state that Second Origin uses up your power or zaps your magical energy? Everyone else who obtained Second Origin seemed fine the whole time. Erza only lost a lot of power because she used Nakagami Armor.

You haven't given any good evidence. You are still mixing in Dimaria's Age Seal when it is restricted.

How? I haven't even incorporated it once into any of my posts...

The very fact that base Wendy and Chelia landed hits on Dimaria means that Dimaria's speed is bad. You said "Dimaria can [kill DF Wendy] faster than Ajeel too", which would only holds true for Dimaria WITH AGE SEAL. Ajeel did not need Sand Golem to catch up with a vehicle when he can travel near instantly through the sand. He was attacking said vehicle with the Sand Golem. And vehicles aren't exactly slow.

Dimaria was rushing at Wendy and Chelia when Wendy charged at her so that tells us that she did it on purpose. She was confident that her durability would be sufficient enough to push forward.

Spoiler

Ajeel on the other hand, was blitzed and obviously wasn't planning on getting hit. It just so happens that he didn't have fast enough reaction time.

Spoiler

You said "Ajeel was slow" and implied the same held true for the rest of his physical stats. So yes, you did say Ajeel was weak. "Erza is average" = an assumption, meaning that your argument is circular. You are admitting that your argument fails for someone as fast as Acnologia. Similarly, it fails if Erza's speed > Dimaria's speed. Once again, you are assuming Erza is weak to prove that Erza is weak.

I've always said that Ajeel is comparable to Dimaria so I don't know how he'd be weak. Acnologia is fast, no doubt. Erza is average. Comparing Erza's speed with Dimaria's speed tells us nothing of Ajeel's speed. I can say that Erza is slower than Dimaria but faster than Ajeel. So that makes Dimaria faster than Ajeel. But I can also say that Erza is equal to Dimaria in speed, so if Erza is faster than Ajeel based on feats, Dimaria is also faster than Ajeel. I can even say that Erza is faster than Dimaria in which comparing Dimaria and Ajeel would be unknown.

I don't see how saying Erza is average tells us anything of Ajeel's speed when comparing it to Dimaria's speed except Ajeel lacked in his own feats.

So what. You said Dimaria fighting Wendy and Chelia was impressive because it was a 2v1. I have proved that a 2v1 by itself =/= impressive.

Exactly. You did prove that a 2v1 by itself is not impressive... with fodders. Wendy and Chelia are weak but not nearly close to fodder levels of Max or Kawazu/Yomazu.

Saying that Natsu didn't manage to kill Zeref in no way proves that Natsu has DF. When he fought Ajeel and Brandish, Natsu thought he could kill Zeref; that is all that matters.

Well, Natsu has DF now. I think it is pretty obvious based on past feats. Yeah, Natsu thought he could kill Zeref... he was dead wrong.

Erza > Chelia by leagues. You are just cherry-picking events you don't like as "comedic" and saying events you like are legitimate. Try harder.

I'm basing the comedic purposes and legitimate feats off of the context of the situation or event. They shouldn't be confused as they are pretty much black-and-white. I think Hiro Mashima does a good job of clearly stating when something is for real or when something is just used for entertainment.

Erza beats Wendy and Chelia with more ease than non-Age Seal Dimaria does. So Erza's offense > Dimaria's offense. I've looked up... nobody. Yeah.

I wouldn't agree with that. Plus, if Chelia had Third-Origin like she did against Dimaria, Erza's fate would end the same or probably worse. We just talked about Zoldeo so I can use him. There are plenty of others, look it up. Also, Leo is part of Fairy Tail. Maybe not the Loke we knew of since the beginning but he is a Celestial Spirit and part of Lucy's magic.

Prove that Erza is not a tier above Kagura. Combat wise they both use swords... so what? Laxus and Wendy were both Dragon Slayers; didn't make them close to equal. MP wise Erza has double that of Kagura due to SO.

Their fighting style is pretty much similar. Erza was stronger than Kagura in GMG and even so, not as much as you portray it to be. We are in Alvarez Arc now. Things have changed.

 

[iDooom]

DF Wendy is no where near the level of LFD Natsu. Natsu used Lightning Flame Dragon Mode against enemies like Hades, Future Rogue, and more before he could activate DF at will. That was pretty much Natsu's strongest form until he was able to use DF. So even if Wendy is in DF, she wouldn't be able to fight evenly against Natsu.

Hades was different because Natsu had all of Laxus's MP and was a lot stronger than GMG LFD Natsu. LFD Natsu got stomped by F. Rogue, so that doesn't mean much. DF is Wendy's strongest form, plus she got extra ethernanos from Face so I don't see a problem.

Yeah, Wendy would lose against God Serena because he is stronger than her. DeS Gray is pretty much equal to Silver MP wise. Plus, Gray is good at CQC. Silver never demonstrated anything to make him superior to Gray when fighting.

Prove that Gray = Silver MP wise. Silver froze a Sun Village + Atlas Flame, did Gray do anything like that? Silver was holding back against Gray and still overpowered him. And as with the case with Wendy, you

The point here is that they are still active and not sitting at a guild hall wasting time. Plus, they did fight a little beforehand.

And you think fighting Orochi Fin fodders improves their strength. Interesting. Where before you said:

Fighting fodders and weakling does nothing because you are already stronger than them

And since Chelia < Bluenote, we are done.

There is no way that comparison is even close to Dimaria's offense and Ajeel's defense. It's more like using the sharpest katana you can find while your opponent is made of skin.

Please provide proof of that being the case about Dimaria's offense and Ajeel's defense.

Zoldeo is weak. That is a given. Caprico was "possessed" by Zoldeo and nothing else but a mere Celestial Spirit. Gray who is stronger than Loke could obviously take him out. That Human Subordination Magic is a real magic but the reason that it makes humans weaker were all lies fed by Loke to prevent Lucy from staying there. He didn't want Zoldeo/Caprico to notice Lucy as Layla Heartfilia's daughter.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Gray was totally beating Caprico...

Zancrow can one-shot Yomazu if he really wanted to. With Kawazu it will take just a little more. I can't barely even see a Medium Difficulty fight let alone Extreme Difficulty. Natsu getting fodderized by Laxus was totally comedy purposes... How did you not get that? Even Gajeel was seen running away immediately afterwards with everyone chasing him down. Hiro Mashima made it as you are supposed to be laughing, not taking it seriously. Zancrow is already shown to overpower Natsu with his magic and withstand Makarov's grip when his hand is in Titan Form. There is no way two fodders can match that.

Prove that Zancrow can one-shot Yomazu. Laxus fodderized Natsu in their real fight while barely trying. Which by the way was not "comedic". Zancrow barely overpowered Natsu, great. But in Tenrou arc Mira >= Freed >= Natsu >= Elfman and Rustyrose > Elfman + Evergreen and gave Freed + Bixslow trouble. Ultear easily overpowered Gray in CQC and only lost to emotions and Ur's interference. Azuma > Ultear > Rustyrose > Zancrow.

It seems like every post from now on, you are asking for the impossible. I gave enough reasons for my claim. Why don't you provide me some legit reasons from your side unless you can't just like me because not everything is explained. First of all, this is not neuroscience. For all we know, Dimaria's activation of Time Magic could be just by clicking her teeth. Second of all, if we are to use real neuroscience or psychology in this discussion, the brain takes less than a second to transmit a signal. We're talking about 0.1 - 0.3 seconds here, which is comparative to blinking. So its still pretty much instantaneous if not almost instantaneous.

I'm asking you to prove your own claims, and if that's impossible maybe you should rethink your own claims. Kagura sensed Dimaria's MP immediately (one page) before she noticed that she had taken damage from Dimaria during Age Seal. Hence, this implies that Kagura sensed Dimaria activating Age Seal, which would presumably take a lot of MP.

No, I agree that SO = SO. The boost is the same but when comparing Max and Natsu I use their full potentials. So their full potentials still have a far larger gap than Erza and Kagura.

What? Their "full potentials" are irrelevant when we're talking about their actual power levels. You argued that 7 years of Max training improved his actual power level the same amount as SO improved Natsu's actual power level. Full potential wise Max never closed the gap with Natsu. Which is what your argument depends upon. In no way does their "full potential" come into the picture.

No, but we have no reason to believe that it is not the case. Anybody who says that God Serena is equal to Ajeel or below is clearly the minority. There is a reason why God Serena's role ended the way it did.

So, prove it then. You say God Serena > Ajeel, so you have the burden of proof.

How would my interpretation have anything to do with denying the power-up he got during the 1 year timeskip? The example you're using to compare is different from the point that I was making. I said that comedy was used when everyone was terrified of Erza as Fairy Tail's Guild Master. It is true. If they really deemed her as a threat andl teamed up to fight her right then and there, they would have won. Nobody was really afraid. It was all for portraying Erza's character and for laughs.

You say that Natsu could activate DF at will. This means that Natsu could beat Brandish and Ajeel for sure without using his Igneel power up. So Natsu using his Igneel power up on Brandish or Ajeel (which Natsu thought about) would be a stupid waste of power-up.

Did I miss something here? When did it state that Second Origin uses up your power or zaps your magical energy? Everyone else who obtained Second Origin seemed fine the whole time. Erza only lost a lot of power because she used Nakagami Armor.

So if Erza were to use Nakagami and one-shot Kagura, it would use up a lot of power, yes?

How? I haven't even incorporated it once into any of my posts...

I've already shown this.

Dimaria was rushing at Wendy and Chelia when Wendy charged at her so that tells us that she did it on purpose. She was confident that her durability would be sufficient enough to push forward.

Spoiler

Ajeel on the other hand, was blitzed and obviously wasn't planning on getting hit. It just so happens that he didn't have fast enough reaction time.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Base Wendy and Chelia kicking Dimaria in the face. Not to mention that base Wendy dodged Dimaria's sword strike. And Erza >> DF Wendy in speed.

I've always said that Ajeel is comparable to Dimaria so I don't know how he'd be weak. Acnologia is fast, no doubt. Erza is average. Comparing Erza's speed with Dimaria's speed tells us nothing of Ajeel's speed. I can say that Erza is slower than Dimaria but faster than Ajeel. So that makes Dimaria faster than Ajeel. But I can also say that Erza is equal to Dimaria in speed, so if Erza is faster than Ajeel based on feats, Dimaria is also faster than Ajeel. I can even say that Erza is faster than Dimaria in which comparing Dimaria and Ajeel would be unknown.

I don't see how saying Erza is average tells us anything of Ajeel's speed when comparing it to Dimaria's speed except Ajeel lacked in his own feats.

You said "Ajeel is slow", meaning that he is weak in the speed department. "Erza is average" is an assumption you made to arrive at the conclusion that Erza is average and that Erza < Dimaria. If Erza > Dimaria in speed that totally kills your argument due to its inherently circular nature. The scenario you fail to take into account is Erza > Ajeel > Dimaria in speed. Which is the most likely scenario based on feats.

Exactly. You did prove that a 2v1 by itself is not impressive... with fodders. Wendy and Chelia are weak but not nearly close to fodder levels of Max or Kawazu/Yomazu.

Since you're trying to say Dimaria (without age seal) is Ajeel level, Wendy and Chelia are most definitely fodder (compared to someone Ajeel level). The gap between base Wendy or Chelia and Ajeel >> the gap between Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu.

Well, Natsu has DF now. I think it is pretty obvious based on past feats. Yeah, Natsu thought he could kill Zeref... he was dead wrong.

Nope, see above.

I'm basing the comedic purposes and legitimate feats off of the context of the situation or event. They shouldn't be confused as they are pretty much black-and-white. I think Hiro Mashima does a good job of clearly stating when something is for real or when something is just used for entertainment.

Still cherry-picking. Name the conditions for something to be considered "comedic".

And still, Erza > Chelia by leagues.

I wouldn't agree with that. Plus, if Chelia had Third-Origin like she did against Dimaria, Erza's fate would end the same or probably worse. We just talked about Zoldeo so I can use him. There are plenty of others, look it up. Also, Leo is part of Fairy Tail. Maybe not the Loke we knew of since the beginning but he is a Celestial Spirit and part of Lucy's magic.

Erza's casual sword strikes would wreck base Chelia and base Wendy where Dimaria's sword strikes and even some of her God Soul attacks did not. Thus, Erza's offence > Dimaria's offence. Also, we weren't talking about TO Chelia here, but Erza > TO Chelia + DF Wendy.

Leo didn't kill Zoldeo; Zoldeo died because he broke the rules and used taboo magic. Show me "plenty of others".

Their fighting style is pretty much similar. Erza was stronger than Kagura in GMG and even so, not as much as you portray it to be. We are in Alvarez Arc now. Things have changed.

Erza was stronger than Kagura in GMG by the same amount that Natsu was stronger than Max. If you disagree that Erza can one-shot Kagura, then perhaps your assumption that Natsu can one-shot Max is wrong. Just because it's a new arc does not mean previous power rankings are thrown out the window and Elfman > Makarov and Gildarts, as you have admitted.

 

[Coné]

Dimaria wins high diff.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Hades was different because Natsu had all of Laxus's MP and was a lot stronger than GMG LFD Natsu. LFD Natsu got stomped by F. Rogue, so that doesn't mean much. DF is Wendy's strongest form, plus she got extra ethernanos from Face so I don't see a problem.

It doesn't matter if DF is Wendy's strongest form. That is obvious. But she still cannot match LFD Natsu. Just look at the logic. Tempesta > Ezel. So for LFD Natsu to be on par with Tempesta and DF Wendy to be on par with Ezel, LFD Nastu has to be stronger than DF Wendy. Therefore, how can Wendy and Natsu have similar HP when one is clearly stronger than the other by a significant margin? This just proves that HP doesn't mean anything here. It is impossible to put a numerical value on characters in manga/anime. In cards? Sure.

Prove that Gray = Silver MP wise. Silver froze a Sun Village + Atlas Flame, did Gray do anything like that? Silver was holding back against Gray and still overpowered him. And as with the case with Wendy, you

Silver pretty much gave Gray his power when he obtained Ice Devil Slaying Magic. That should be enough proof there to say that DeS Gray = Silver.

Spoiler

And you think fighting Orochi Fin fodders improves their strength. Interesting. Where before you said:


And since Chelia < Bluenote, we are done.

No, there are two ways to train. To fight, and to just used magic. I agree that they didn't get any stronger by fighting fodders. That is why they didn't get immensely stronger since the timeskip. However, they did use a lot of magic and were active, so that proves that they got stronger.

I also never denied that Chelia < Bluenote. Although, Bluenote < TO Chelia.

Please provide proof of that being the case about Dimaria's offense and Ajeel's defense.

I already did. Dimaria has the strength and power that surpasses DF Wendy and is around equal to the likes of someone like Kagura. Ajeel literally has very low defense as he was slashed by Erza's basic attacks, somewhat critically injured by Jupiter Cannon, and was portrayed to have weak durability. I don't need so say more than I already did.

Spoiler

Gray was totally beating Caprico...

Did you even read my post? I said that Gray could take out Caprico. This fight means nothing. It was the very beginning of a fight and Gray didn't even use magic yet. Once Gray was getting serious, Leo stopped him. Simple as that. Not to mention, Gray wasn't even scratched by that kick from Caprico. Gray saying that Caprico is strong because he could take them on does not necessarily mean that he could beat them. Either way, Gray can beat any Celestial Spirit especially since Leo is the strongest one besides Aquarius and Gray is even stronger than Leo himself. Cana and Lucy aren't that strong so they didn't get to contribute much.

Prove that Zancrow can one-shot Yomazu. Laxus fodderized Natsu in their real fight while barely trying. Which by the way was not "comedic". Zancrow barely overpowered Natsu, great. But in Tenrou arc Mira >= Freed >= Natsu >= Elfman and Rustyrose > Elfman + Evergreen and gave Freed + Bixslow trouble. Ultear easily overpowered Gray in CQC and only lost to emotions and Ur's interference. Azuma > Ultear > Rustyrose > Zancrow.

What does Laxus beating Natsu have anything to do with this? Yomazu admitted that he is no match for Zancrow. In other words, Zancrow wins with No Difficulty. Usually, you can't trust words only but because Yomazu has feats, it supports that he is obviously weaker than any of the 7 Kin of Purgatory, even the weakest, Kain Hikaru. Yomazu is like on the level of Levy.

No, you got your list totally backwards.

• Freed is not even close to Natsu's level. Natsu is on the same level as Mirajane.
• Elfman and Evergreen are like fodders to Rustyrose so that doesn't prove his strength. Freed and Bickslow is just a notch above. Still weak. Doesn't prove anything. In fact, Rustyrose is weak for not being able to finish off those 4 quickly.
• Ultear never overpowered Gray in CQC. Gray has always had the upperhand. She only overpowered him with her Nullifying Magic which Gray overcame in the end.

Azuma has nothing but hax so he is weak compared to Zancrow. Zancrow easily defeats Rustyrose and possibly Ultear.

I'm asking you to prove your own claims, and if that's impossible maybe you should rethink your own claims. Kagura sensed Dimaria's MP immediately (one page) before she noticed that she had taken damage from Dimaria during Age Seal. Hence, this implies that Kagura sensed Dimaria activating Age Seal, which would presumably take a lot of MP.

It's not impossible. I've been proving everything I've said even when you asked for it. You can't expect me to know every specific detail unless I was the one who wrote the manga, Fairy Tail. Besides, what have you given me besides the same line, "Prove it."

No, Kagura said she noticed Dimaria's power right after the clash they had. Let me show you why your claim defies logic.

Spoiler

This is the panel I'm referencing. Now, the whole panel, Age Seal has not been activated yet. It is instantaneous, so using the phrase that she sensed it beforehand doesn't work. Looking at the background of the top and bottom panel we can see that the soldiers have obviously moved. Time has not stopped. We also see a difference in the angle of Dimaria's arm. Time has not stopped. We see the rest of Lamia Scale in shock at Dimaria. Time has not stopped yet or they wouldn't even have that sort of surprise expression. So tell me how does Age Seal have anything to do with it? Age Seal was used instantly after this panel so what Kagura sensed here was Dimaria's MP.

What? Their "full potentials" are irrelevant when we're talking about their actual power levels. You argued that 7 years of Max training improved his actual power level the same amount as SO improved Natsu's actual power level. Full potential wise Max never closed the gap with Natsu. Which is what your argument depends upon. In no way does their "full potential" come into the picture.

Full potential is your actual power level... You got it backwards. If you're not at your full-potential, you introduce errors in determining your actual power level. The only thing I argued with you from the start is that 7 years allowed Max to be on par with Post-Tenrou Base Natsu. GMG SO Natsu helped Natsu catch up with those 7 years lost or more.I already agreed at SO is the same for Erza and Natsu. Anything else we argued about was you who introduced it. Saying that the gap between Natsu and Max is not correct because they are far more apart than Kagura and Erza ever has been.

So, prove it then. You say God Serena > Ajeel, so you have the burden of proof.

I don't need to prove anything when I've already given you the information. The manga explains everything I've said already, so it's you who needs to look up the things you haven't totally grasped yet.

You say that Natsu could activate DF at will. This means that Natsu could beat Brandish and Ajeel for sure without using his Igneel power up. So Natsu using his Igneel power up on Brandish or Ajeel (which Natsu thought about) would be a stupid waste of power-up.

Yeah, so? Let's say Natsu can beat Brandish or Ajeel for sure with Dragon Force. It still might not be a one-shot. It might not be easy either, but he'll eventually defeat them. Now a possible reason on why Natsu considered using Igneel's power was because they were in a desperate situation and he wanted to one-shot them.

So if Erza were to use Nakagami and one-shot Kagura, it would use up a lot of power, yes?

Sure, but releasing Second Origin doesn't mean she has to use Nakagami Armor. That moment was purely PoF. She can still use SO, defeat Kagura, and then proceed to Minerva.

Spoiler

Base Wendy and Chelia kicking Dimaria in the face. Not to mention that base Wendy dodged Dimaria's sword strike. And Erza >> DF Wendy in speed.

How is this proof of anything? Dimaria didn't expect Ultear to appear and interfere so it doesn't count. This is equivalent of a surprise attack. Again, Wendy dodged it because Dimaria didn't expect Ultear to be there. Wendy would have died otherwise.

On the other hand, Erza was constantly being thrashed around by Ajeel. Ajeel also kept failing to dodge attacks in a similar manner.

You said "Ajeel is slow", meaning that he is weak in the speed department. "Erza is average" is an assumption you made to arrive at the conclusion that Erza is average and that Erza < Dimaria. If Erza > Dimaria in speed that totally kills your argument due to its inherently circular nature. The scenario you fail to take into account is Erza > Ajeel > Dimaria in speed. Which is the most likely scenario based on feats.

Exactly. Ajeel is slow. He has other stats to make up for his Spriggan level power including intangibility. No, I don't fail to take that scenario into account. I already did but disregarded because...

• Kagura ≤ Dimaria [Speed]
• Erza ≈ Kagura ≤ Dimaria [Speed]
• Erza > Ajeel [Speed]
• Ajeel < Erza ≤ Dimaria [Speed]

So we really can't say anything about Ajeel's speed with certainty except that he is most likely slower than Dimaria.

Since you're trying to say Dimaria (without age seal) is Ajeel level, Wendy and Chelia are most definitely fodder (compared to someone Ajeel level). The gap between base Wendy or Chelia and Ajeel >> the gap between Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu.

I completely agree with this. Never denied it. Add a TO in front of Chelia's name and the whole dynamic of it changes. One little thing can make a noticeable difference.

Still cherry-picking. Name the conditions for something to be considered "comedic".

And still, Erza > Chelia by leagues.

Do I really need to explain something so obvious that it is common sense? I thought after watching the anime or reading the manga that anyone would be able to understand such a simple thing. A scene is clearly for comedy when it shows something that contradicts the constant nature between the characters or when another character says a joke following the actual scene. Macao, Wakaba, Happy, and the other members of Fairy Tail are the most predominant characters who adds in to the already comedic plot.

Erza's casual sword strikes would wreck base Chelia and base Wendy where Dimaria's sword strikes and even some of her God Soul attacks did not. Thus, Erza's offence > Dimaria's offence. Also, we weren't talking about TO Chelia here, but Erza > TO Chelia + DF Wendy.

Dimaria never used her sword strikes on Chelia or Wendy... All the panels you're looking at was her blocking their attacks or keeping them away from her. If she were to use her sword for real, both girls would be sliced in half from the start. Erza can barely handle TO Chelia herself let alone DF Wendy helping her.

Leo didn't kill Zoldeo; Zoldeo died because he broke the rules and used taboo magic. Show me "plenty of others".

You're right, he didn't. My bad, I overlooked that. But there is still Doriate and the Cyclops Monster from Sun Village Arc before Tartaros.

Erza was stronger than Kagura in GMG by the same amount that Natsu was stronger than Max. If you disagree that Erza can one-shot Kagura, then perhaps your assumption that Natsu can one-shot Max is wrong. Just because it's a new arc does not mean previous power rankings are thrown out the window and Elfman > Makarov and Gildarts, as you have admitted.

No, Erza fought Kagura with difficulty whereas Natsu fodderizes Max. You can say the gap between Max and Base Natsu is the same as Full-Power Erza and Full-Power Kagura because SO is the same. But as a whole, Full-Power Natsu and Max have a wider gap. I never admitted such an obviously incorrect statement.

 

[iDooom]

It doesn't matter if DF is Wendy's strongest form. That is obvious. But she still cannot match LFD Natsu. Just look at the logic. Tempesta > Ezel. So for LFD Natsu to be on par with Tempesta and DF Wendy to be on par with Ezel, LFD Nastu has to be stronger than DF Wendy. Therefore, how can Wendy and Natsu have similar HP when one is clearly stronger than the other by a significant margin? This just proves that HP doesn't mean anything here. It is impossible to put a numerical value on characters in manga/anime. In cards? Sure.

DF Wendy beat Ezel fairly easily despite taking damage beforehand. So DF Wendy was not on par with Ezel, but DF Wendy > Ezel. Thus, DF Wendy is about as strong as LFD Natsu. Hence they have around the same amount of HP. These cards certainly have more accurate power levels than you do.

Silver pretty much gave Gray his power when he obtained Ice Devil Slaying Magic. That should be enough proof there to say that DeS Gray = Silver.

Spoiler

Are you saying that FDK Natsu = Igneel in power? Gray using Silver's power doesn't mean they are equal. DeS Gray < DeS Silver.

No, there are two ways to train. To fight, and to just used magic. I agree that they didn't get any stronger by fighting fodders. That is why they didn't get immensely stronger since the timeskip. However, they did use a lot of magic and were active, so that proves that they got stronger.

I also never denied that Chelia < Bluenote. Although, Bluenote < TO Chelia.

Prove that Wendy and Chelia used a lot more magic and were much more active than Erza over the timeskip.

Chelia < Bluenote means that Erza no diffs Chelia. So we are done with this argument. Bluenote < TO Chelia is irrelevant because Bluenote is fodder.

I already did. Dimaria has the strength and power that surpasses DF Wendy and is around equal to the likes of someone like Kagura. Ajeel literally has very low defense as he was slashed by Erza's basic attacks, somewhat critically injured by Jupiter Cannon, and was portrayed to have weak durability. I don't need so say more than I already did.

Erza's base attacks > Dimaria's attacks > DF Wendy's attacks and Ajeel tanked Jupiter with very little damage. Ajeel does not have weak durability. Also, Dimaria has never shown that she is equal to Kagura in physical stats. Dimaria's sneak attack was easily deflected by Kagura.

Did you even read my post? I said that Gray could take out Caprico. This fight means nothing. It was the very beginning of a fight and Gray didn't even use magic yet. Once Gray was getting serious, Leo stopped him. Simple as that. Not to metnion, Gray wasn't even scratched by that kick from Caprico. Gray saying that Caprico is strong because he could take them on does not necessarily mean that he could beat them. Either way, Gray can beat any Celestial Spirit especially since Leo is the strongest one besides Aquarius and Gray is even stronger than Leo himself. Cana and Lucy aren't that strong so they didn't get to contribute much.

That's not how celestial Spirits work. Lucy stated that all her celestial spirits get stronger as she gets more MP. And besides, Caprico was strong because of his Human Subordination magic, not because he was a celestial spirit. Prove that Gray could take out Caprico.

What does Laxus beating Natsu have anything to do with this? Yomazu admitted that he is no match for Zancrow. In other words, Zancrow wins with No Difficulty. Usually, you can't trust words only but because Yomazu has feats, it supports that he is obviously weaker than any of the 7 Kin of Purgatory, even the weakest, Kain Hikaru. Yomazu is like on the level of Levy.

Yomazu said he wasn't a match for the 7 Kin, and Azuma can certainly no diff him. He never said he was no match for Zancrow, who is mid-tier in the 7 Kin.

No, you got your list totally backwards.

• Freed is not even close to Natsu's level. Natsu is on the same level as Mirajane.
• Elfman and Evergreen are like fodders to Rustyrose so that doesn't prove his strength. Freed and Bickslow is just a notch above. Still weak. Doesn't prove anything. In fact, Rustyrose is weak for not being able to finish off those 4 quickly.
• Ultear never overpowered Gray in CQC. Gray has always had the upperhand. She only overpowered him with her Nullifying Magic which Gray overcame in the end.

Azuma has nothing but hax so he is weak compared to Zancrow. Zancrow easily defeats Rustyrose and possibly Ultear.

• Tartaros Mirajane ≈ LFD Natsu as shown by Tartaros stats. Therefore Tenrou Mirajane > Tenrou base Natsu. Freed w/ Absolute Shadow >= Natsu.
• Again we have a 2v1 here, which shows Rustyrose is "impressive". Elfman isn't much weaker than Natsu, Freed >= Natsu. Rustyrose > Zancrow.
• Ultear overpowering Gray in CQC:

Spoiler

Azuma is hax? Azuma one-shotted Lily w/ Wendy buffs ≈ Gajeel ≈ Natsu. Azuma one or two-shots Zancrow. So Azuma > Ultear > Rustyrose > Zancrow.

It's not impossible. I've been proving everything I've said even when you asked for it. You can't expect me to know every specific detail unless I was the one who wrote the manga, Fairy Tail. Besides, what have you given me besides the same line, "Prove it."

You haven't proven close to "everything". I expect you to know the specific details reasonably well before you make an argument about them. When you make claims like those, you have to provide evidence. As I have with my claims.

No, Kagura said she noticed Dimaria's power right after the clash they had. Let me show you why your claim defies logic.

Spoiler

This is the panel I'm referencing. Now, the whole panel, Age Seal has not been activated yet. It is instantaneous, so using the phrase that she sensed it beforehand doesn't work. Looking at the background of the top and bottom panel we can see that the soldiers have obviously moved. Time has not stopped. We also see a difference in the angle of Dimaria's arm. Time has not stopped. We see the rest of Lamia Scale in shock at Dimaria. Time has not stopped yet or they wouldn't even have that sort of surprise expression. So tell me how does Age Seal have anything to do with it? Age Seal was used instantly after this panel so what Kagura sensed here was Dimaria's MP.

Once again, you haven't proven that the activation of Age Seal is instantaneous. Nobody except Dimaria can notice time stopping because Ultear is not there to unfreeze them, so the passage of time doesn't prove that Age Seal wasn't active. All it shows is that we didn't see Dimaria's POV. And then you say, "Age Seal was used instantly after this panel", so what exactly prevents Kagura from sensing the MP from Age Seal?

Full potential is your actual power level... You got it backwards. If you're not at your full-potential, you introduce errors in determining your actual power level. The only thing I argued with you from the start is that 7 years allowed Max to be on par with Post-Tenrou Base Natsu. GMG SO Natsu helped Natsu catch up with those 7 years lost or more.I already agreed at SO is the same for Erza and Natsu. Anything else we argued about was you who introduced it. Saing that the gap between Natsu and Max is not correct because they are far more apart than Kagura and Erza ever has been.

What the hell is this? Full potential = actual power level... so you're saying that baby Natsu's power level = his full potential. I don't know what to say...

If pre-SO Natsu = Max and pre-SO Erza = Kagura, then the gap between SO Natsu and Max = gap between SO Erza and Kagura.

I don't need to prove anything when I've already given you the information. The manga explains everything I've said already, so it's you who needs to look up the things you haven't totally grasped yet.

The manga never says that God Serena > Ajeel. However, it does say that the Spriggan 12 are on par with God Serena.

Yeah, so? Let's say Natsu can beat Brandish or Ajeel for sure with Dragon Force. It still might not be a one-shot. It might not be easy either, but he'll eventually defeat them. Now a possible reason on why Natsu considered using Igneel's power was because they were in a desperate situation and he wanted to one-shot them.

They were in a desperate situation against Ajeel? When Ajeel alone is fighting Natsu + Gray + Erza + Lucy + Wendy + Makarov + Mest? And Natsu wanted to use Igneel's power to one-shot Ajeel and Brandish? Please provide proof.

Sure, but releasing Second Origin doesn't mean she has to use Nakagami Armor. That moment was purely PoF. She can still use SO, defeat Kagura, and then proceed to Minerva.

No, this is similar to the Jura vs Laxus vs Orga fight where Laxus >= Jura, who one-shot Orga. Hence, Laxus could one-shot Orga but chose not to in order to conserve power. At the start of the fight, Erza doesn't know how strong Kagura or Minerva are exactly, so she wouldn't waste MP like that.

How is this proof of anything? Dimaria didn't expect Ultear to appear and interfere so it doesn't count. This is equivalent of a surprise attack. Again, Wendy dodged it because Dimaria didn't expect Ultear to be there. Wendy would have died otherwise.

On the other hand, Erza was constantly being thrashed around by Ajeel. Ajeel also kept failing to dodge attacks in a similar manner.

Wendy dodged it sure, but then Wendy and Chelia kicked Dimaria in face afterwards. Then Wendy and Chelia hit Dimaria again while Dimaria failed to hit base Wendy and Chelia with sword strikes and had to go full power. Erza >>> base Chelia in speed.

Exactly. Ajeel is slow. He has other stats to make up for his Spriggan level power including intangibility. No, I don't fail to take that scenario into account. I already did but disregarded because...

• Kagura ≤ Dimaria [Speed]
• Erza ≈ Kagura ≤ Dimaria [Speed]
• Erza > Ajeel [Speed]
• Ajeel < Erza ≤ Dimaria [Speed]

So we really can't say anything about Ajeel's speed with certainty except that he is most likely slower than Dimaria.

No, Dimaria is slower and weaker, but has Age Seal to make up for her Spriggan level power.

Nope. Dimaria has not shown anything on par with Kagura and Kagura is not on par with Erza. So your argument falls apart and Ajeel's speed > Dimaria's.

I completely agree with this. Never denied it. Add a TO in front of Chelia's name and the whole dynamic of it changes. One little thing can make a noticeable difference.

You did deny this when you argued that Dimaria fighting base Wendy and Chelia was impressive. Now Dimaria has no feats of note.

Do I really need to explain something so obvious that it is common sense? I thought after watching the anime or reading the manga that anyone would be able to understand such a simple thing. A scene is clearly for comedy when it shows something that contradicts the constant nature between the characters or when another character says a joke following the actual scene. Macao, Wakaba, Happy, and the other members of Fairy Tail are the most predominant characters who adds in to the already comedic plot.

Erza > base/LFD Natsu has definitely held true for at least the first 400 chapters. Hence Erza scaring Natsu and becoming GM is not "comedic".

Dimaria never used her sword strikes on Chelia or Wendy... All the panels you're looking at was her blocking their attacks or keeping them away from her. If she were to use her sword for real, both girls would be sliced in half from the start. Erza can barely handle TO Chelia herself let alone DF Wendy helping her.

Spoiler

Why would Dimaria need to keep Chelia and Wendy away from her when Dimaria can supposedly "slice them in half"? Erza beats TO Chelia + DF Wendy.

You're right, he didn't. My bad, I overlooked that. But there is still Doriate and the Cyclops Monster from Sun Village Arc before Tartaros.

The Cyclops Monster ended up eating Doriate. So that's one kill in 400+ chapters and it's a monster, not even human.

No, Erza fought Kagura with difficulty whereas Natsu fodderizes Max. You can say the gap between Max and Base Natsu is the same as Full-Power Erza and Full-Power Kagura because SO is the same. But as a whole, Full-Power Natsu and Max have a wider gap. I never admitted such an obviously incorrect statement.

Prove that Tenrou Natsu fodderizes Tenrou Max. What is "full-power Natsu" and "full-power Max"? You aren't using your ridiculous definitions above are you? You have admitted that Elfman << Makarov and Gildarts, even though Elfman was shown training. Hence the same applies to Chelia << Erza.

 

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DF Wendy beat Ezel fairly easily despite taking damage beforehand. So DF Wendy was not on par with Ezel, but DF Wendy > Ezel. Thus, DF Wendy is about as strong as LFD Natsu. Hence they have around the same amount of HP. These cards certainly have more accurate power levels than you do.

Fairly easily? Ezel tanked her Dragon Slayer's Secret Art like nothing. He slashed through every single attack of hers until that last one... She was on the verge of losing. Plus, he had no visible scratches until his death... Not to mention, Wendy launched him into Face... Come on, since when is that easy? Her damage beforehand doesn't matter. By sucking in the ethernano particles from Face, it restores her magic energy to an even higher level... This is also seen in Natsu's fight with Jellal in the Tower of Heaven Arc. He was being tossed around but once he was in DF, he didn't shown any signs of fatigue and beat Jellal.Fairy Tail is more based on MP than HP. So, DF Wendy does not equal Natsu.

Are you saying that FDK Natsu = Igneel in power? Gray using Silver's power doesn't mean they are equal. DeS Gray < DeS Silver.

Yes. When Natsu was using Igneel's power against Zeref, you can say it was Igneel vs. Zeref. The only difference is that Igneel has a greater magic capacity but power-wise, they were the same. I can't believe why you would believe otherwise. You thought that was Natsu's power?

On the other hand, Gray's Ice Devil Slaying Magic that he got from Silver wasn't a one-time use and didn't just last for one battle. It wasn't nearly as limited at Natsu using Igneel's power. You can say it is similar to Natsu and Igneel, except Gray was able to wield it for a longer period of time. So he was pretty much on par with Silver for the rest of the arc, until he lost all of the energy from it and had to re-learn it.

Prove that Wendy and Chelia used a lot more magic and were much more active than Erza over the timeskip.

Chelia < Bluenote means that Erza no diffs Chelia. So we are done with this argument. Bluenote < TO Chelia is irrelevant because Bluenote is fodder.

Pretty much everything that we've got from the panels depicts that...

Yeah... Erza beats Chelia with Easy Difficulty... On the contrary, TO Chelia is relevant considering we are comparing Dimaria and Erza here.

Erza's base attacks > Dimaria's attacks > DF Wendy's attacks and Ajeel tanked Jupiter with very little damage. Ajeel does not have weak durability. Also, Dimaria has never shown that she is equal to Kagura in physical stats. Dimaria's sneak attack was easily deflected by Kagura.

Saying Erza's base attacks are greater than Dimaria's is such a baseless claim. Ajeel does have somewhat low durability because he got slashed by Erza's regular attacks. Ajeel tanked Jupiter with very little damage?

Ajeel's Condition Beforehand

Spoiler

Ajeel's Condition Afterwards

Spoiler

Kagura mentioned that her power is strong. So that tells us that either Dimaria is equal to Kagura or stronger than her. This is without Age Seal.

That's not how celestial Spirits work. Lucy stated that all her celestial spirits get stronger as she gets more MP. And besides, Caprico was strong because of his Human Subordination magic, not because he was a celestial spirit. Prove that Gray could take out Caprico.

Okay, fine, you want to be technical? Loke. They're both the same anyways. Gray and Natsu has always been stronger than Loke even when he had no contracts with a celestial mage. Caprico was strong but not as strong as Gray or most of the other 7 Kin of Purgatory. I've already proved Gray being stronger than Caprico. If you want further evidence, he took out Ultear who is higher than most of the 7 Kin of Purgatory according to your list. Unless you put Caprico in between Azuma and Ultear? That would be ridiculous.

Yomazu said he wasn't a match for the 7 Kin, and Azuma can certainly no diff him. He never said he was no match for Zancrow, who is mid-tier in the 7 Kin.

Yeah, no match for the 7 Kin of Purgatory. Meaning all of them...

• Tartaros Mirajane ≈ LFD Natsu as shown by Tartaros stats. Therefore Tenrou Mirajane > Tenrou base Natsu. Freed w/ Absolute Shadow >= Natsu.
• Again we have a 2v1 here, which shows Rustyrose is "impressive". Elfman isn't much weaker than Natsu, Freed >= Natsu. Rustyrose > Zancrow.
• Ultear overpowering Gray in CQC:

Spoiler

Azuma is hax? Azuma one-shotted Lily w/ Wendy buffs ≈ Gajeel ≈ Natsu. Azuma one or two-shots Zancrow. So Azuma > Ultear > Rustyrose > Zancrow.

No, Mirajane is not approximately equal to LFD Natsu... She is close, but not that close. Natsu fought Franmalth and then proceeded to fight Tempesta. Mirajane fought Seilah and had Elfman to back her up. So Base Natsu and Mirajane are about equal. There is no way Freed's strongest form would even be on par with Natsu, let alone greater than him. Yeah, we have a 2v1 but against two mages of the lesser tiers in Fairy Tail? If Rustyrose is that strong, he should have fodderized both. I don't see how you came up with Elfman being comparable to Natsu...

Ultear overpowering Gray? They seemed very close in powers to me so nobody overpowered anybody unless you want to say they both overpowered each other... Which cancels out, meaning nobody still...

Spoiler

Azuma's magic is hax. If you don't agree, then we just disagree. Pantherlily with Wendy's buffs is no where near Gajeel or Natsu either... How do you even see that possible? So no, Azuma doesn't one-shot anything but himself when he got defeated by Erza.

Once again, you haven't proven that the activation of Age Seal is instantaneous. Nobody except Dimaria can notice time stopping because Ultear is not there to unfreeze them, so the passage of time doesn't prove that Age Seal wasn't active. All it shows is that we didn't see Dimaria's POV. And then you say, "Age Seal was used instantly after this panel", so what exactly prevents Kagura from sensing the MP from Age Seal?

If Age Seal is not instantaneous, why did we see her freeze time immediately after she hints about attacking Kagura/Wendy? There must be a reason if it happens more than one time, right? It's not a coincidence. Time-stopping is pretty much instantaneous unless you want to argue that Brandish shrinking is not either? I can say that Brandish used her Manipulation Magic to shrink the island before she stepped on it, but it took 2 whole chapters for it to activate. See any logic to it? So that still pretty much prevents Kagura from sensing it.

What the hell is this? Full potential = actual power level... so you're saying that baby Natsu's power level = his full potential. I don't know what to say...

If pre-SO Natsu = Max and pre-SO Erza = Kagura, then the gap between SO Natsu and Max = gap between SO Erza and Kagura.

You're using it backwards again... Baby Natsu's Full Potential = Actual Power Level. That is his power level as a kid. We see this in Sun Village Arc when Doriate makes Erza and Gray a kid. They got weaker because they were using their actual powers as a kid... I don't know how else to explain this either.

I already agreed with that in the last post... But the overall range between Natsu and Max is still not the same as Erza and Kagura.

The manga never says that God Serena > Ajeel. However, it does say that the Spriggan 12 are on par with God Serena.

So? I believed that in the beginning of the Alvarez Arc... Now? Not so much considering that we have feats... That expression was solely for hype But as I've said already, Feats > Hype. Anyways, are you going to say that all Spriggans are on par with God Serena? If so, you'll be in for a surprise when August appears.

They were in a desperate situation against Ajeel? When Ajeel alone is fighting Natsu + Gray + Erza + Lucy + Wendy + Makarov + Mest? And Natsu wanted to use Igneel's power to one-shot Ajeel and Brandish? Please provide proof.

Yes, the situation was tense. Your comment just proves my claim. Ajeel was alone fighting all of them, yet they were scared? Why? Because he was stronger than them... Nobody there knew if Ajeel was alone or if there were more Spriggans lingering around to trap them so that is why they were worried. They needed to escape ASAP. One of the chapter titles "Battle to Escape" should give you an idea of what the scene would feel like. So that could explain Natsu's thinking.

No, this is similar to the Jura vs Laxus vs Orga fight where Laxus >= Jura, who one-shot Orga. Hence, Laxus could one-shot Orga but chose not to in order to conserve power. At the start of the fight, Erza doesn't know how strong Kagura or Minerva are exactly, so she wouldn't waste MP like that.

This is not even close to that fight. I never said for Erza to use Nakagami Starlight off the bat... I said for her to use Second Origin. The reason she didn't use it was not because it zaps MP because it doesn't. Natsu, Gray, Juvia, and Lucy would be in for some major trouble if it did. Erza probably wanted to show it off to people or didn't think it was that necessary at the time. I don't know.

Wendy dodged it sure, but then Wendy and Chelia kicked Dimaria in face afterwards. Then Wendy and Chelia hit Dimaria again while Dimaria failed to hit base Wendy and Chelia with sword strikes and had to go full power. Erza >>> base Chelia in speed.

Yeah, because there was interference and it was a surprise attack. You're the one who keeps making a big deal about surprise attacks in Dimaria vs Kagura, except Kagura blocked it. When did Dimaria get hit by them again? She blocked all their attacks from then on and she only went God Soul because of Ultear's interference...

So Erza > Base Chelia in Speed, but what about TO Chelia?

No, Dimaria is slower and weaker, but has Age Seal to make up for her Spriggan level power.

Nope. Dimaria has not shown anything on par with Kagura and Kagura is not on par with Erza. So your argument falls apart and Ajeel's speed > Dimaria's.

So you keep asking me for proof. Now it's your turn. My evidence still stands. You can't disprove anything except using your own opinions to change the argument.

You did deny this when you argued that Dimaria fighting base Wendy and Chelia was impressive. Now Dimaria has no feats of note.

What? I never said that the gap between Ajeel and Chelia is smaller than Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu. Saying that Dimaria vs Wendy and Chelia is more impressive just means that Dimaria was holding her own against Wendy/Chelia better than Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu. Plus, the gap between Dimaria and Wendy/Chelia is larger than Gajeel and Yomazu/Kawazu. If anything, this proves that Dimaria is better. Now if you were talking about TO Chelia, it would be different. I still can't see how you would include Ajeel into this...

Erza > base/LFD Natsu has definitely held true for at least the first 400 chapters. Hence Erza scaring Natsu and becoming GM is not "comedic".

Well then, I guess you just don't have a good sense of humor. I have nothing else to say or add here.

Spoiler

Why would Dimaria need to keep Chelia and Wendy away from her when Dimaria can supposedly "slice them in half"? Erza beats TO Chelia + DF Wendy.

She was obviously playing around with them then... How did you not see that? She only became serious the moment she decided to kill them which was when she used her Time Magic.

The Cyclops Monster ended up eating Doriate. So that's one kill in 400+ chapters and it's a monster, not even human.

That is true. I was wrong about Doriate. However, it doesn't matter if the enemy is a monster or a human... Fairy Tail still killed it. Anyways, you want to know why Zeref's words are not true? Wahl was smashed to pieces. And this is the current Alvarez Arc... That again proves that words don't mean anything when we've seen actual feats.

Prove that Tenrou Natsu fodderizes Tenrou Max. What is "full-power Natsu" and "full-power Max"? You aren't using your ridiculous definitions above are you? You have admitted that Elfman << Makarov and Gildarts, even though Elfman was shown training. Hence the same applies to Chelia << Erza.

What? How many times do I need to explain this before you understand? Full-power obviously means that the character uses their strongest form, attacks, power-ups, etc. Of course Makarov and Gildarts are above Elfman... Why? Because the gap between them was ridiculously large to begin with. It is almost impossible for Elfman to catch up now unless Makarov and Gildarts don't train for 10 years while Elfman trains for 24 hours everyday of the year.

Since when did I say Chelia > Erza? Are you even reading my posts? If you don't understand what my post is saying, just ask. Don't just twist my words. Yes, Chelia < Erza. But TO Chelia does not lose to Erza.

 

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Fairly easily? Ezel tanked her Dragon Slayer's Secret Art like nothing. He slashed through every single attack of hers until that last one... She was on the verge of losing. Plus, he had no visible scratches until his death... Not to mention, Wendy launched him into Face... Come on, since when is that easy? Her damage beforehand doesn't matter. By sucking in the ethernano particles from Face, it restores her magic energy to an even higher level... This is also seen in Natsu's fight with Jellal in the Tower of Heaven Arc. He was being tossed around but once he was in DF, he didn't shown any signs of fatigue and beat Jellal.Fairy Tail is more based on MP than HP. So, DF Wendy does not equal Natsu.

Spoiler

DF Wendy completely outmaneuvered Ezel, who couldn't keep up with her speed whatsoever, The only reason Ezel did so well is because Wendy had to beat him quickly before Face activated, and so Wendy used a brute force attack that Ezel could overpower. And then Wendy ended up overpowering Ezel with brute force anyway. Ezel was not on par with DF Wendy, so DF Wendy ≈ LFD Natsu is quite reasonable.

Yes. When Natsu was using Igneel's power against Zeref, you can say it was Igneel vs. Zeref. The only difference is that Igneel has a greater magic capacity but power-wise, they were the same. I can't believe why you would believe otherwise. You thought that was Natsu's power?

On the other hand, Gray's Ice Devil Slaying Magic that he got from Silver wasn't a one-time use and didn't just last for one battle. It wasn't nearly as limited at Natsu using Igneel's power. You can say it is similar to Natsu and Igneel, except Gray was able to wield it for a longer period of time. So he was pretty much on par with Silver for the rest of the arc, until he lost all of the energy from it and had to re-learn it.

FDK Natsu < Igneel in power. There is no way FDK Natsu could have done to Acnologia what Igneel did.

DeS Gray was not on par with DeS Silver when DeS Gray ≈ LFD Natsu < Silver (disregarding slayer advantage).

Pretty much everything that we've got from the panels depicts that...

Yeah... Erza beats Chelia with Easy Difficulty... On the contrary, TO Chelia is relevant considering we are comparing Dimaria and Erza here.

So, Show me panels that PROVE Erza used significantly less magic magic was was significantly less active than Chelia.

TO Chelia has no feats except against Dimaria and Dimaria has no impressive feats except against TO Chelia. Using TO Chelia alone to gauge Dimaria's power is thus circular reasoning. Base Chelia and base/DF Wendy have feats so we can compare Dimaria to them.

Saying Erza's base attacks are greater than Dimaria's is such a baseless claim. Ajeel does have somewhat low durability because he got slashed by Erza's regular attacks. Ajeel tanked Jupiter with very little damage?

Ajeel's Condition Beforehand

Spoiler

Ajeel's Condition Afterwards

Spoiler

On the contrary, Erza slashing Ajeel means that Erza has really powerful attacks. Saying that Ajeel has low durability requires that you prove that Erza has low offense. What is baseless is you saying WITHOUT EVIDENCE, that Dimaria has comparable stats to Ajeel simply because she is a Spriggan.

On the picture, you can see that Ajeel has slight additional damage on his arm from Jupiter. The marks on his chest were from Erza's slashes.

Kagura mentioned that her power is strong. So that tells us that either Dimaria is equal to Kagura or stronger than her. This is without Age Seal.

Erza said Kagura was strong during GMG, yet Erza > Kagura so your argument is disproven. Kagura said that Dimaria's MP was overwhelming, and MP is used for Age Seal. Kagura never said that Dimaria's physical stats were overwhelming nor was Kagura overwhelmed in their first encounter.

Okay, fine, you want to be technical? Loke. They're both the same anyways. Gray and Natsu has always been stronger than Loke even when he had no contracts with a celestial mage. Caprico was strong but not as strong as Gray or most of the other 7 Kin of Purgatory. I've already proved Gray being stronger than Caprico. If you want further evidence, he took out Ultear who is higher than most of the 7 Kin of Purgatory according to your list. Unless you put Caprico in between Azuma and Ultear? That would be ridiculous.

Once again, Loke does not have Human Subordination magic. Caprico did not even summon his warriors against Gray, so he didn't go all out.

Gray < Ultear and only won because of Ur's interference and Ultear's emotions. There is no proof that Gray > Caprico.

Yeah, no match for the 7 Kin of Purgatory. Meaning all of them...

You think that Kain and Meldy could no diff Yomazu? If so, your power levels are ridiculous.

No, Mirajane is not approximately equal to LFD Natsu... She is close, but not that close. Natsu fought Franmalth and then proceeded to fight Tempesta. Mirajane fought Seilah and had Elfman to back her up. So Base Natsu and Mirajane are about equal. There is no way Freed's strongest form would even be on par with Natsu, let alone greater than him. Yeah, we have a 2v1 but against two mages of the lesser tiers in Fairy Tail? If Rustyrose is that strong, he should have fodderized both. I don't see how you came up with Elfman being comparable to Natsu...

Mira took over all of Hell's Core and destroyed it. Natsu got help from Lucy against Franmalth and it was a "comedic" fight according to your standards. Mira used Seilah's Macro to summon Elfman, much as Bickslow did against Rustyrose. LFD Natsu ≈ EF Tempesta ≈ EF Sayla, except Natsu didn't actually beat Tempesta. Hence, Mira ≈ LFD Natsu > base Natsu. Tenrou Freed >= Tenrou base Natsu, who wasn't even that strong. I don't know how you think that the other S-class candidates weren't even comparable to base Natsu. Rustyrose > Zancrow handily.

Ultear overpowering Gray? They seemed very close in powers to me so nobody overpowered anybody unless you want to say they both overpowered each other... Which cancels out, meaning nobody still...

Spoiler

Ultear beat the crap out of Gray and tanked Gray's red ice move with little damage. Ultear lost because of emotions.

Azuma's magic is hax. If you don't agree, then we just disagree. Pantherlily with Wendy's buffs is no where near Gajeel or Natsu either... How do you even see that possible? So no, Azuma doesn't one-shot anything but himself when he got defeated by Erza.

Azuma's magic isn't hax, it's just really powerful. Which aspect exactly is "hax"? Erza one-shots Tenrou Gajeel and Natsu.

Pantherlily tanked Gajeel's roar with little damage and fought Gajeel evenly in CQC in Edolas Arc. Therefore Lily ≈ Gajeel.

If Age Seal is not instantaneous, why did we see her freeze time immediately after she hints about attacking Kagura/Wendy? There must be a reason if it happens more than one time, right? It's not a coincidence. Time-stopping is pretty much instantaneous unless you want to argue that Brandish shrinking is not either? I can say that Brandish used her Manipulation Magic to shrink the island before she stepped on it, but it took 2 whole chapters for it to activate. See any logic to it? So that still pretty much prevents Kagura from sensing it.

Prove that her freezing time was immediate and that Dimaria didn't have to prepare to cast the spell. When she clearly clicked her teeth before activating it. No, but Brandish could have started using her Magic ONE PANEL before we see its effects. Your arguments are invalid.

You're using it backwards again... Baby Natsu's Full Potential = Actual Power Level. That is his power level as a kid. We see this in Sun Village Arc when Doriate makes Erza and Gray a kid. They got weaker because they were using their actual powers as a kid... I don't know how else to explain this either.

I already agreed with that in the last post... But the overall range between Natsu and Max is still not the same as Erza and Kagura.

Your definition of "Full Potential" is silly and unnecessary. If you are referring to their actual power level, then you say actual power level. Since you say that Max = pre-SO Natsu and Kagura = pre-SO Erza, the gap between Max and SO Natsu = gap between Kagura and SO Erza. Is this really hard to understand?

So? I believed that in the beginning of the Alvarez Arc... Now? Not so much considering that we have feats... That expression was solely for hype But as I've said already, Feats > Hype. Anyways, are you going to say that all Spriggans are on par with God Serena? If so, you'll be in for a surprise when August appears.

You say that Serena > Ajeel. Nobody in the manga said so. So burden of proof is on you.

Yes, the situation was tense. Your comment just proves my claim. Ajeel was alone fighting all of them, yet they were scared? Why? Because he was stronger than them... Nobody there knew if Ajeel was alone or if there were more Spriggans lingering around to trap them so that is why they were worried. They needed to escape ASAP. One of the chapter titles "Battle to Escape" should give you an idea of what the scene would feel like. So that could explain Natsu's thinking.

Ajeel > all of them combined? When you have admitted that DF Natsu would eventually beat him in a 1v1. That's funny.

Now you are resorting to baseless speculations. If they were truly afraid of multiple Spriggans, why did they turn and stop running? You still have no evidence that Natsu had to one-shot Ajeel. In fact, it's a ridiculous claim to justify your incorrect beliefs.

This is not even close to that fight. I never said for Erza to use Nakagami Starlight off the bat... I said for her to use Second Origin. The reason she didn't use it was not because it zaps MP because it doesn't. Natsu, Gray, Juvia, and Lucy would be in for some major trouble if it did. Erza probably wanted to show it off to people or didn't think it was that necessary at the time. I don't know.

If Erza wanted to "show it off" or "didn't think it was necessary", then you concede that SO Erza could have one-shot Kagura, yes?

Yeah, because there was interference and it was a surprise attack. You're the one who keeps making a big deal about surprise attacks in Dimaria vs Kagura, except Kagura blocked it. When did Dimaria get hit by them again? She blocked all their attacks from then on and she only went God Soul because of Ultear's interference...

Base Wendy and Chelia are so weak compared to an Ajeel level Spriggan that Wendy and Chelia kicking her in the face, even in a surprise attack, doesn't make sense. Kagura blocked Dimaria's sneak attack, so Dimaria should have been able to react to Wendy and Chelia, right?

So Erza > Base Chelia in Speed, but what about TO Chelia?

As I have proven, even if TO > SO it wouldn't be enough to close the gap between Erza and Chelia. So given TO Chelia's lack of feats, TO Chelia < Erza.

So you keep asking me for proof. Now it's your turn. My evidence still stands. You can't disprove anything except using your own opinions to change the argument.

I've already given lots of proof. And I have a lot more evidence than you to support my "opinions".

What? I never said that the gap between Ajeel and Chelia is smaller than Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu. Saying that Dimaria vs Wendy and Chelia is more impressive just means that Dimaria was holding her own against Wendy/Chelia better than Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu. Plus, the gap between Dimaria and Wendy/Chelia is larger than Gajeel and Yomazu/Kawazu. If anything, this proves that Dimaria is better. Now if you were talking about TO Chelia, it would be different. I still can't see how you would include Ajeel into this...

The gap between Ajeel and Wendy/Chelia >> gap between Gajeel and Yomazu/Kawazu. Therefore, Ajeel would destroy Wendy + Chelia, unlike Dimaria "holding her own". I am including Ajeel because you say that Dimaria (without Age Seal) = Ajeel. Except Ajeel would have performed better against Wendy and Chelia than Dimaria did. Ajeel > base Natsu (according to you) who >> Bluenote > Chelia, so Ajeel would no diff base Wendy and Chelia.

Well then, I guess you just don't have a good sense of humor. I have nothing else to say or add here.

So you're conceding that Natsu doesn't have better hype than Erza, yes?

She was obviously playing around with them then... How did you not see that? She only became serious the moment she decided to kill them which was when she used her Time Magic.

Dimaria had already used her Time Magic and had already tried to kill Wendy. Still doesn't explain Dimaria having to use God Soul against them.

That is true. I was wrong about Doriate. However, it doesn't matter if the enemy is a monster or a human... Fairy Tail still killed it. Anyways, you want to know why Zeref's words are not true? Wahl was smashed to pieces. And this is the current Alvarez Arc... That again proves that words don't mean anything when we've seen actual feats.

Prove that Wahl is dead.

What? How many times do I need to explain this before you understand? Full-power obviously means that the character uses their strongest form, attacks, power-ups, etc. Of course Makarov and Gildarts are above Elfman... Why? Because the gap between them was ridiculously large to begin with. It is almost impossible for Elfman to catch up now unless Makarov and Gildarts don't train for 10 years while Elfman trains for 24 hours everyday of the year.

Since when did I say Chelia > Erza? Are you even reading my posts? If you don't understand what my post is saying, just ask. Don't just twist my words. Yes, Chelia < Erza. But TO Chelia does not lose to Erza.

In the same way, it's impossible for Chelia to catch up to Erza unless Erza "doesn't train for 10 years and Chelia trains 24 hours everyday of the year". Not that Chelia was shown training more than Erza over the 1 year timeskip. TO is not nearly enough to close the gap.

 

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Spoiler

DF Wendy completely outmaneuvered Ezel, who couldn't keep up with her speed whatsoever, The only reason Ezel did so well is because Wendy had to beat him quickly before Face activated, and so Wendy used a brute force attack that Ezel could overpower. And then Wendy ended up overpowering Ezel with brute force anyway. Ezel was not on par with DF Wendy, so DF Wendy ≈ LFD Natsu is quite reasonable.

Being outclassed by your opponent's speed is one thing but being able to match them with other stats is another. Sure, Ezel was slower than Wendy. However, he proved to have far better durability over her. Like I said, Ezel tanked one of Wendy's strongest attacks like it was nothing. Not to mention, he was able to fight Wendy on equal terms for quite a while.

FDK Natsu < Igneel in power. There is no way FDK Natsu could have done to Acnologia what Igneel did.

DeS Gray was not on par with DeS Silver when DeS Gray ≈ LFD Natsu < Silver (disregarding slayer advantage).

What? Aren't we talking about magical power? By definition, Igneel literally gave Natsu his power... Yes, I know FDK Natsu would lose to Igneel. What is your point? I already stated that the main difference between them is magic capacity. Igneel has far greater flames than the limited amount he gave to Natsu but the power is the same. That is the reason why Igneel could damage Acnologia. Because he has enough flames to attack Acnologia with whereas Natsu does not even come close to a sufficient amount. Plus, Igneel has far better physical attacks or force.

DeS Gray is not equivalent to LFD Natsu... DF Natsu couldn't kill Etherious Mard Geer... DeS Gray killed Etherious Mard Geer with Slayer Advantage. That means without Slayer Advantage, Gray would be on par with DF Natsu because he wouldn't be able to kill Etherious Mard Geer either. So DeS Gray would be stronger than DF Natsu with Slayer Advantage but on par without it.

So, Show me panels that PROVE Erza used significantly less magic magic was was significantly less active than Chelia.

TO Chelia has no feats except against Dimaria and Dimaria has no impressive feats except against TO Chelia. Using TO Chelia alone to gauge Dimaria's power is thus circular reasoning. Base Chelia and base/DF Wendy have feats so we can compare Dimaria to them.

If you would look at the panels I've already posted, you would see that by portrayal, Erza hasn't trained as much as others.

No, it is not circular reasoning. That is only in your mind. Dimaria has already been comparable to various characters and seen to overwhelm quite a few of them. The fact that feats and hype have proven that Dimaria is strong like most of the Spriggans, that means TO Chelia is ranked up there. Sure, Base Chelia and DF Wendy has feats but those can be ignored as they clearly lose to Dimaria. Meanwhile, TO Chelia destroyed her. What you're doing here is being bias and only comparing characters that support your argument without taking the whole context into consideration.

On the contrary, Erza slashing Ajeel means that Erza has really powerful attacks. Saying that Ajeel has low durability requires that you prove that Erza has low offense. What is baseless is you saying WITHOUT EVIDENCE, that Dimaria has comparable stats to Ajeel simply because she is a Spriggan.

On the picture, you can see that Ajeel has slight additional damage on his arm from Jupiter. The marks on his chest were from Erza's slashes.

Yeah, Erza is strong. But notice this is her regular, base slashes that haven't shown to finish off enemies, let alone critically damage them. We know for a fact that one of Erza's little attacks are no where compared to the attacks of the Spriggans or other characters. Erza's strongest attack couldn't even kill one... So while Erza has high offense overall, that single attack should be classified as low offense. That is pretty much evidence as long as you understand reasoning. You just admitted Dimaria is similar to Ajeel.

So? That damage on his arm looks pretty grave. You can also see his clothes rip which added damage to his chest. Not to mention, he was screaming and stuttering which indicates immense pain...

Erza said Kagura was strong during GMG, yet Erza > Kagura so your argument is disproven. Kagura said that Dimaria's MP was overwhelming, and MP is used for Age Seal. Kagura never said that Dimaria's physical stats were overwhelming nor was Kagura overwhelmed in their first encounter.

My argument still stands. Kagura didn't sense Age Seal at the time or she would have reacted in defense for not knowing what the upcoming attack was. Instead, she just stood there, appalled by Dimaria's power.

Once again, Loke does not have Human Subordination magic. Caprico did not even summon his warriors against Gray, so he didn't go all out.

Gray < Ultear and only won because of Ur's interference and Ultear's emotions. There is no proof that Gray > Caprico.

So? Loke doesn't need Human Subordination Magic. It did not weaken humans... That was Loke trying to trick Lucy so she wouldn't witness their fight because Loke knew the true identity of Caprico. The warriors were obviously weak... They did nothing to Loke... Gray sill wins this.

Ur never made an interference. Ultear's emotions has got nothing to do with it. She lost fair and square. Plus, the motions didn't get to her until the battle ended. If anything, the emotions before the fight ended triggered anger in her so she should have been stronger and defeated Gray. But she didn't... Because she is weaker than Gray.

You think that Kain and Meldy could no diff Yomazu? If so, your power levels are ridiculous.

No, the weakest of the 7 Kin of Purgatory would beat Yomazu with Easy Difficulty. First, Meredy is more of a support mage. Second, Kain is not very smart in fights... You take someone like Zancrow with attack damage comparable to Natsu or possibly greater than him along with enhanced durability, CQC, and speed, he would destroy Yomazu. This is literally a no contest fight. I don't see what is so debatable here except that you are in denial.

Mira took over all of Hell's Core and destroyed it. Natsu got help from Lucy against Franmalth and it was a "comedic" fight according to your standards. Mira used Seilah's Macro to summon Elfman, much as Bickslow did against Rustyrose. LFD Natsu ≈ EF Tempesta ≈ EF Sayla, except Natsu didn't actually beat Tempesta. Hence, Mira ≈ LFD Natsu > base Natsu. Tenrou Freed >= Tenrou base Natsu, who wasn't even that strong. I don't know how you think that the other S-class candidates weren't even comparable to base Natsu. Rustyrose > Zancrow handily.

Taking over all of Hell's Core? Is that really more notable of a feat than killing off one of the Nine Demon Gates? No, Natsu's fight with Franmalth was serious. His intent was to destroy Tartaros and save his friends. How is that "comedic" according to my standards? Lucy barely did anything anyways except fed him with Aries. On the other hand, Mirajane got help from Elfman. So Natsu didn't beat Etherious Tempesta. Your point? Mirajane defeated Seilah with help... If Natsu isn't that strong, than Freed is very weak. There is no way he is greater than or equal to Natsu. Which S-class candidates are you talking about specifically? Gray? Probably. Freed? No. Zancrow can take Rustyrose on anyday. That guy is a fool.

Ultear beat the crap out of Gray and tanked Gray's red ice move with little damage. Ultear lost because of emotions.

Last time I checked, Gray defeated Ultear without much difficulty thanks to his intelligence. At this point, you're just making up excuses.

Azuma's magic isn't hax, it's just really powerful. Which aspect exactly is "hax"? Erza one-shots Tenrou Gajeel and Natsu.

Pantherlily tanked Gajeel's roar with little damage and fought Gajeel evenly in CQC in Edolas Arc. Therefore Lily ≈ Gajeel.

His power to uproot the Tenrou Tree is haxed. Erza doesn't one-shot anybody like Gajeel and Natsu in Tenrou... You take that word too lightly. Yes, she's stronger than them but not to that extent. No, Pantherlily is not even close to Gajeel. He can only stay in that form for so long while Gajeel would defeat immediately after Pantherlily runs out of power.

Prove that her freezing time was immediate and that Dimaria didn't have to prepare to cast the spell. When she clearly clicked her teeth before activating it. No, but Brandish could have started using her Magic ONE PANEL before we see its effects. Your arguments are invalid.

Okay, so how about two panels? Three? I can do this all day if I wanted to. You're just making assumptions now.

Your definition of "Full Potential" is silly and unnecessary. If you are referring to their actual power level, then you say actual power level. Since you say that Max = pre-SO Natsu and Kagura = pre-SO Erza, the gap between Max and SO Natsu = gap between Kagura and SO Erza. Is this really hard to understand?

No, it's very easy to understand. You need to answer your own question. Full-potential is relevant in the sense that it displays the true power gap. I already said that SO is the same. You keep arguing and contradicting yourself.

You say that Serena > Ajeel. Nobody in the manga said so. So burden of proof is on you.

Well, I think it is fairly clear. If you were to ask 10 people, 9 of them would say God Serena is more powerful. By the way, that one person who thought otherwise is you. Proof is the feats shown from both characters. I've already stated it. It is up to you to read and understand it.

Ajeel > all of them combined? When you have admitted that DF Natsu would eventually beat him in a 1v1. That's funny.

Now you are resorting to baseless speculations. If they were truly afraid of multiple Spriggans, why did they turn and stop running? You still have no evidence that Natsu had to one-shot Ajeel. In fact, it's a ridiculous claim to justify your incorrect beliefs.

No, Ajeel is not stronger than all of the combined. I never said combined. I said that he is stronger than all of them meaning he can take any of them on in a one-on-one battle. They turned and stopped running away because they thought they couldn't escape from Ajeel. Not only did they have to focus on being chased, they were oblivious to any other Spriggan movement nearby if there were any. As it turned out, August was there, so they could have nearly died.

The point here is that Natsu had to react quickly if they wanted to survive. I couldn't care less about Natsu having to one-shot Ajeel. That was just an alternative way of explaining Natsu's reasoning.

If Erza wanted to "show it off" or "didn't think it was necessary", then you concede that SO Erza could have one-shot Kagura, yes?

No, again, you use that term with little meaning to it. Erza can barely one-shot anybody and that goes for virtually almost every character. Yes, Erza is stronger than Kagura during GMG. Why she didn't go SO from the start? That is only known by Erza herself. A reasonable explanation would be that she didn't want anyone to know she had that trump card or they could counter it. Another reason would be that Hiro Mashima decided to use PoF and Nakama Power.

Base Wendy and Chelia are so weak compared to an Ajeel level Spriggan that Wendy and Chelia kicking her in the face, even in a surprise attack, doesn't make sense. Kagura blocked Dimaria's sneak attack, so Dimaria should have been able to react to Wendy and Chelia, right?

Dimaria stood in one place the whole time and she did react to Wendy + Chelia. She blocked every single attack. The only one she didn't was the surprise attack. Dimaria even received no damage from getting hit by them. I'm not talking about Base Wendy and Base Chelia. They are clearly weaker than the Spriggans. I'm talking about TO Chelia's power and Dimaria's power. Stop diverting from the topic.

As I have proven, even if TO > SO it wouldn't be enough to close the gap between Erza and Chelia. So given TO Chelia's lack of feats, TO Chelia < Erza.



I've already given lots of proof. And I have a lot more evidence than you to support my "opinions".

I didn't see any proof except random statements. Saying TO > SO isn't even an "if". It is a fact. Given TO Chelia's lack of feats yet very impressive ones, she does indeed compare to Erza.

The gap between Ajeel and Wendy/Chelia >> gap between Gajeel and Yomazu/Kawazu. Therefore, Ajeel would destroy Wendy + Chelia, unlike Dimaria "holding her own". I am including Ajeel because you say that Dimaria (without Age Seal) = Ajeel. Except Ajeel would have performed better against Wendy and Chelia than Dimaria did. Ajeel > base Natsu (according to you) who >> Bluenote > Chelia, so Ajeel would no diff base Wendy and Chelia.

How did you come up with that from the previous statement? The gap between Ajeel and Chelia/Wendy being greater than Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu doesn't tell us that Ajeel is better than Dimaria. I can say that the gap between Dimaria and Chelia/Wendy is greater than Ajeel and Chelia/Wendy. Nothing here proves or hints that Ajeel would perform better than Dimaria.

When did I say that Chelia and Wendy would beat Ajeel? You are so far from the discussion at this point and just keep opening your mouth to deviate from losing. Stop putting words into my mouth and give credible information instead of just giving nonsense. TO Chelia would beat Ajeel. Wendy and Chelia get destroyed by Ajeel... So simple, not hard to understand.

So you're conceding that Natsu doesn't have better hype than Erza, yes?

I don't care. Both of these characters already have feats so hype is ignored and doesn't mean anything here.

Dimaria had already used her Time Magic and had already tried to kill Wendy. Still doesn't explain Dimaria having to use God Soul against them.

Dimaria used God Soul because her Time Magic didn't work. This was because of Ultear. So, she still doesn't have a problem with defeating Chelia or Wendy unless either of them have Third Origin.

Prove that Wahl is dead.

I can't believe this statement is brought up...

First, Wahl disappeared from the radar.

Second,

Spoiler

In the same way, it's impossible for Chelia to catch up to Erza unless Erza "doesn't train for 10 years and Chelia trains 24 hours everyday of the year". Not that Chelia was shown training more than Erza over the 1 year timeskip. TO is not nearly enough to close the gap.

No, the gap between them is far less, so that same logic doesn't apply. You're just underestimating TO here. Either that, or you don't understand it.

 

[iDooom]

Being outclassed by your opponent's speed is one thing but being able to match them with other stats is another. Sure, Ezel was slower than Wendy. However, he proved to have far better durability over her. Like I said, Ezel tanked one of Wendy's strongest attacks like it was nothing. Not to mention, he was able to fight Wendy on equal terms for quite a while.

Ezel didn't tank Wendy's strong attack, he cut it up. There's a difference. Wendy was destroying Ezel before and after that attack. So DF Wendy > Ezel.

What? Aren't we talking about magical power? By definition, Igneel literally gave Natsu his power... Yes, I know FDK Natsu would lose to Igneel. What is your point? I already stated that the main difference between them is magic capacity. Igneel has far greater flames than the limited amount he gave to Natsu but the power is the same. That is the reason why Igneel could damage Acnologia. Because he has enough flames to attack Acnologia with whereas Natsu does not even come close to a sufficient amount. Plus, Igneel has far better physical attacks or force.

DeS Gray is not equivalent to LFD Natsu... DF Natsu couldn't kill Etherious Mard Geer... DeS Gray killed Etherious Mard Geer with Slayer Advantage. That means without Slayer Advantage, Gray would be on par with DF Natsu because he wouldn't be able to kill Etherious Mard Geer either. So DeS Gray would be stronger than DF Natsu with Slayer Advantage but on par without it.

So you admit that FDK Natsu < Igneel? And since Silver probably didn't give Gray all his MP, DeS Silver > DeS Gray. And Silver's physicals > Gray's.

DeS Gray not being able to kill Mard Geer without slayer advantage in no way means he is equal to DF Natsu. Wendy can't kill Mard Geer either, so Gray = Wendy?

If you would look at the panels I've already posted, you would see that by portrayal, Erza hasn't trained as much as others.

Cherry-picked panels =/= proof. I've provided more relevant panels that "show" Erza trained more than Wendy and Chelia.

No, it is not circular reasoning. That is only in your mind. Dimaria has already been comparable to various characters and seen to overwhelm quite a few of them. The fact that feats and hype have proven that Dimaria is strong like most of the Spriggans, that means TO Chelia is ranked up there. Sure, Base Chelia and DF Wendy has feats but those can be ignored as they clearly lose to Dimaria. Meanwhile, TO Chelia destroyed her. What you're doing here is being bias and only comparing characters that support your argument without taking the whole context into consideration.

Dimaria (non-Age Seal) has never been compared favorably to a character close to Ajeel level, whom you claim Dimaria matches without using Age Seal. Dimaria's feats < Ajeel's feats, and Dimaria's hype takes into account Age Seal, so it is irrelevant. You must prove that Dimaria matches other Spriggans without the use of Age Seal.

Yeah, Erza is strong. But notice this is her regular, base slashes that haven't shown to finish off enemies, let alone critically damage them. We know for a fact that one of Erza's little attacks are no where compared to the attacks of the Spriggans or other characters. Erza's strongest attack couldn't even kill one... So while Erza has high offense overall, that single attack should be classified as low offense. That is pretty much evidence as long as you understand reasoning. You just admitted Dimaria is similar to Ajeel.

"We know for a fact that one of Erza's little attacks are no where compared to the attacks of the Spriggans or other characters." This is False. This is only your assumption and is why your argument is circular. "Erza's strongest attack couldn't even kill [Ajeel]" means you are using Ajeel to judge the strength of Erza's attacks. But you are judging Ajeel's durability using Erza's base sword slashes. Which is a blatantly circular argument. Nope, I am saying that you were arguing that Dimaria (without Age Seal) = Ajeel because they were both Spriggans.

So? That damage on his arm looks pretty grave. You can also see his clothes rip which added damage to his chest. Not to mention, he was screaming and stuttering which indicates immense pain...

It doesn't even look as "grave" as the damage Erza took from Ajeel when Marin was blocking her magic. And Ajeel didn't expect it coming.

My argument still stands. Kagura didn't sense Age Seal at the time or she would have reacted in defense for not knowing what the upcoming attack was. Instead, she just stood there, appalled by Dimaria's power.

Kagura obviously doesn't know Dimaria's abilities, she can only sense Dimaria's MP. Dimaria's MP =/= Dimaria's physical stats.

So? Loke doesn't need Human Subordination Magic. It did not weaken humans... That was Loke trying to trick Lucy so she wouldn't witness their fight because Loke knew the true identity of Caprico. The warriors were obviously weak... They did nothing to Loke... Gray sill wins this.

Loke doesn't need that magic? He doesn't HAVE that magic. Caprico's magic definitely weakened humans so that they could not hit him with attacks. Prove that Gray can win when Caprico is using Human Subordination Magic.

Ur never made an interference. Ultear's emotions has got nothing to do with it. She lost fair and square. Plus, the motions didn't get to her until the battle ended. If anything, the emotions before the fight ended triggered anger in her so she should have been stronger and defeated Gray. But she didn't... Because she is weaker than Gray.

Please reread that fight.

No, the weakest of the 7 Kin of Purgatory would beat Yomazu with Easy Difficulty. First, Meredy is more of a support mage. Second, Kain is not very smart in fights... You take someone like Zancrow with attack damage comparable to Natsu or possibly greater than him along with enhanced durability, CQC, and speed, he would destroy Yomazu. This is literally a no contest fight. I don't see what is so debatable here except that you are in denial.

You said that Yomazu's statement meant that any of the 7 Kin could no diff him. So you're contradicting yourself now. If Meredy and Kain can't no diff him, then there is no guarantee that Zancrow could either. You must provide proof that Zancrow could no diff him.

Taking over all of Hell's Core? Is that really more notable of a feat than killing off one of the Nine Demon Gates? No, Natsu's fight with Franmalth was serious. His intent was to destroy Tartaros and save his friends. How is that "comedic" according to my standards? Lucy barely did anything anyways except fed him with Aries. On the other hand, Mirajane got help from Elfman. So Natsu didn't beat Etherious Tempesta. Your point? Mirajane defeated Seilah with help... If Natsu isn't that strong, than Freed is very weak. There is no way he is greater than or equal to Natsu. Which S-class candidates are you talking about specifically? Gray? Probably. Freed? No. Zancrow can take Rustyrose on anyday. That guy is a fool.

You said that something was "comedic" if it had jokes or was drawn in a funny way. Natsu + Lucy vs Franmalth had many jokes and was drawn that way. Hence it was a "comedic" fight (by your definition). Mira took over and used Macro to call Elfman; hence she caused Elfman to help her out. Gajeel got free help from Levy against EF Torafusa, so ISD Gajeel < EF Torafusa? Natsu didn't beat EF Tempesta so you can't say LFD Natsu >= Tempesta. Freed's feats in FF arc are very impressive and I would put Freed >= Natsu. Whereas you don't even think Freed is comparable... Rustyrose beats Zancrow.

Last time I checked, Gray defeated Ultear without much difficulty thanks to his intelligence. At this point, you're just making up excuses.

"Without much difficulty"? I think you need to reread the fight. Ultear lost because of Ur's emotional interference.

His power to uproot the Tenrou Tree is haxed. Erza doesn't one-shot anybody like Gajeel and Natsu in Tenrou... You take that word too lightly. Yes, she's stronger than them but not to that extent. No, Pantherlily is not even close to Gajeel. He can only stay in that form for so long while Gajeel would defeat immediately after Pantherlily runs out of power.

Yes Tenrou Erza one-shots Tenrou Natsu/Gajeel. Just like BoS Erza one-shots BoS Natsu. Natsu didn't get much stronger, and Erza got stronger as well, so the power gap is unchanged. Azuma defeated Lily in his combat form when said Lily ≈ Gajeel ≈ Natsu.

Okay, so how about two panels? Three? I can do this all day if I wanted to. You're just making assumptions now.

You argued that Age Seal is "instantaneous", so you have to prove it.

No, it's very easy to understand. You need to answer your own question. Full-potential is relevant in the sense that it displays the true power gap. I already said that SO is the same. You keep arguing and contradicting yourself.

There's a "true" power gap as in there is a "false" power gap? What is this? Pre-SO Natsu = Max, pre-SO Erza = Kagura. Pre-SO Natsu + SO = SO Natsu. Pre-SO Erza + SO = SO Erza. Hence gap between SO Natsu and Max = SO = gap between SO Erza and Kagura.

Well, I think it is fairly clear. If you were to ask 10 people, 9 of them would say God Serena is more powerful. By the way, that one person who thought otherwise is you. Proof is the feats shown from both characters. I've already stated it. It is up to you to read and understand it.

Nice made-up statistic by the way. God Serena beating the GOI doesn't PROVE that Serena > Ajeel. It could mean that Erza > GOI. You say that God Serena is significantly stronger than Ajeel. You have to prove it.

No, Ajeel is not stronger than all of the combined. I never said combined. I said that he is stronger than all of them meaning he can take any of them on in a one-on-one battle. They turned and stopped running away because they thought they couldn't escape from Ajeel. Not only did they have to focus on being chased, they were oblivious to any other Spriggan movement nearby if there were any. As it turned out, August was there, so they could have nearly died.

The point here is that Natsu had to react quickly if they wanted to survive. I couldn't care less about Natsu having to one-shot Ajeel. That was just an alternative way of explaining Natsu's reasoning.

You just said that DF Natsu beats Ajeel in a 1v1 fight... Prove that they were worried about other Spriggans and not just worried about Ajeel.

No, again, you use that term with little meaning to it. Erza can barely one-shot anybody and that goes for virtually almost every character. Yes, Erza is stronger than Kagura during GMG. Why she didn't go SO from the start? That is only known by Erza herself. A reasonable explanation would be that she didn't want anyone to know she had that trump card or they could counter it. Another reason would be that Hiro Mashima decided to use PoF and Nakama Power.

I define a one-shot to be when one character defeats another character in one hit while both are using a comparable amount of effort. A no-diff is where one character casually one-shots another character. BoS Erza one-shots BoS Natsu. Erza in Phantom Lord arc one-shot Aria. GMG Jura one-shot Orga. The reason one-shots do not happen more often is because characters generally fight opponents in their power range.

SO =/= POF or Nakama Power, which aren't even relevant to this fight. Your explanations don't disprove Erza one-shotting Kagura.

Dimaria stood in one place the whole time and she did react to Wendy + Chelia. She blocked every single attack. The only one she didn't was the surprise attack. Dimaria even received no damage from getting hit by them. I'm not talking about Base Wendy and Base Chelia. They are clearly weaker than the Spriggans. I'm talking about TO Chelia's power and Dimaria's power. Stop diverting from the topic.

Why did Dimaria block every attack instead of no diffing Wendy and Chelia? The answer is that Dimaria can't no diff them.

I didn't see any proof except random statements. Saying TO > SO isn't even an "if". It is a fact. Given TO Chelia's lack of feats yet very impressive ones, she does indeed compare to Erza.

TO Chelia's feats are only impressive if Dimaria (no Time Magic) is impressive. Which you have yet to prove.

How did you come up with that from the previous statement? The gap between Ajeel and Chelia/Wendy being greater than Gajeel and Kawazu/Yomazu doesn't tell us that Ajeel is better than Dimaria. I can say that the gap between Dimaria and Chelia/Wendy is greater than Ajeel and Chelia/Wendy. Nothing here proves or hints that Ajeel would perform better than Dimaria.

You can say that the gap between Dimaria and Chelia > gap between Ajeel and Chelia IF you prove it.

Bluenote almost performed as well as Dimaria against Wendy and Chelia. Ajeel >> Bluenote and no diffs both Wendy and Chelia. Dimaria didn't come close to no diffing Wendy and Chelia.

When did I say that Chelia and Wendy would beat Ajeel? You are so far from the discussion at this point and just keep opening your mouth to deviate from losing. Stop putting words into my mouth and give credible information instead of just giving nonsense. TO Chelia would beat Ajeel. Wendy and Chelia get destroyed by Ajeel... So simple, not hard to understand.

How do you explain Wendy and Chelia not getting "destroyed" by Dimaria then? When Dimaria is supposedly Ajeel level.

I don't care. Both of these characters already have feats so hype is ignored and doesn't mean anything here.

Backtracking, I see. You were the one who brought up Natsu's vs Erza's hype in the first place. And you are saying Dimaria's hype should be ignored because she has feats and so her hype doesn't mean anything, yes?

Dimaria used God Soul because her Time Magic didn't work. This was because of Ultear. So, she still doesn't have a problem with defeating Chelia or Wendy unless either of them have Third Origin.

You said "Dimaria can cut them in half" without Time Magic, so why didn't she? Why resort to God Soul against base Wendy and Chelia?

I can't believe this statement is brought up...

First, Wahl disappeared from the radar.

Second,

Spoiler

Dimaria's signal disappeared from the radar, so she is dead as well? Laxus did a lot of damage to Wahl, but that doesn't mean he's dead.

No, the gap between them is far less, so that same logic doesn't apply. You're just underestimating TO here. Either that, or you don't understand it.

No, the gap between Erza and Chelia is comparable to that between Makarov and Elfman. You're overestimating TO here.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Ezel didn't tank Wendy's strong attack, he cut it up. There's a difference. Wendy was destroying Ezel before and after that attack. So DF Wendy > Ezel.

No, he clearly tanked it and then proceeded to slice through it in order to make physical contact with Wendy. You need better proof to be able to make your claim. If you don't believe me in this panel, watch the anime. Ezel clearly used his hands and arms to block it in the anime.

Spoiler

Meanwhile, in this panel, his body was engulfed in that attack. The only reason DF Wendy beat Ezel was because she launched him into Face, a structure with high amounts of magical energy.

So you admit that FDK Natsu < Igneel? And since Silver probably didn't give Gray all his MP, DeS Silver > DeS Gray. And Silver's physicals > Gray's.

DeS Gray not being able to kill Mard Geer without slayer advantage in no way means he is equal to DF Natsu. Wendy can't kill Mard Geer either, so Gray = Wendy?

No, you misunderstood my post. I stated that Igneel beats FDK Natsu due to the difference magic capacity and brute/physical force. However, the attack that Natsu used on Zeref is equivalent to Igneel's MP provided that you're comparing it to the same amount of magical energy if Igneel were to use it himself. When Silver died, he pretty much gave Gray the rest of his MP so I don't see your point here.

Before you propose such an idea to prove your point, be realistic about it. Wendy doesn't even close to damaging Mard Geer like DF Natsu did so Gray is obviously not at that level. Slayer advantage gives the user a boost but not to a scale of basically a one-shot. I've explained this to others before and I won't repeat this anymore. If you still don't understand, I'm sorry. Because Gray got his MP from Silver who is many times stronger than Ezel, it is technically impossible for Gray to be that weak.

Cherry-picked panels =/= proof. I've provided more relevant panels that "show" Erza trained more than Wendy and Chelia.

Thank you for just contradicting and proving your own actions wrong. You did the same thing as me, so don't act like you're innocent of it. I really haven't seen any panels from you besides ones that don't mean anything as they are already proven wrong by feats.

Dimaria (non-Age Seal) has never been compared favorably to a character close to Ajeel level, whom you claim Dimaria matches without using Age Seal. Dimaria's feats < Ajeel's feats, and Dimaria's hype takes into account Age Seal, so it is irrelevant. You must prove that Dimaria matches other Spriggans without the use of Age Seal.

The Age Seal in Chelia's fight is compensated for by Ultear's magic. In this discussion thread, it is obvious that Erza is getting the same benefit or advantage as Chelia. So if Erza couldn't beat Ajeel, why can she beat Dimaria when they are equal in feats and power? Age Seal doesn't affect Dimaria's overall MP, especially when it is a secondary magic that is used as support to defeat her opponents. Plus, an attack that is not used cannot be sensed prior to the activation of it. Hence, Dimaria was not at full power when she fought Kagura and Erza would have felt the same amount of power Kagura did at the time.

"We know for a fact that one of Erza's little attacks are no where compared to the attacks of the Spriggans or other characters." This is False. This is only your assumption and is why your argument is circular. "Erza's strongest attack couldn't even kill [Ajeel]" means you are using Ajeel to judge the strength of Erza's attacks. But you are judging Ajeel's durability using Erza's base sword slashes. Which is a blatantly circular argument. Nope, I am saying that you were arguing that Dimaria (without Age Seal) = Ajeel because they were both Spriggans.

No, it is not circular argument. It is pure logic. It would be circular argument if I said that Erza's strongest attack couldn't kill Dimaria because it couldn't kill Ajeel. However, I specifically noted that Erza was not even using a quarter of her strength. So what you're saying here is that...

• Dimaria = Less than 1/4 Ajeel [Durability]

That is such a ridiculous statement. I will make it clear once again that Dimaria = Ajeel not only because of Spriggan hype but because of the feats against respected characters in relation to the side characters shown.

It doesn't even look as "grave" as the damage Erza took from Ajeel when Marin was blocking her magic. And Ajeel didn't expect it coming.

That is pure denial. He was in far worse condition than when Erza slashed him. He was still standing when Erza slashed him but the moment that the Jupiter Cannon hit Ajeel, he was falling from the sky in which Erza immediately seized the chance to use Nakagami Starlight on him.

Kagura obviously doesn't know Dimaria's abilities, she can only sense Dimaria's MP. Dimaria's MP =/= Dimaria's physical stats.

Her stats are incorporated into her overall MP. That is pretty much the definition of Magical Power... The only attribute that is not included is fighting style and technique/strategy.

Loke doesn't need that magic? He doesn't HAVE that magic. Caprico's magic definitely weakened humans so that they could not hit him with attacks. Prove that Gray can win when Caprico is using Human Subordination Magic.

For the last time, Human Subordination Magic is magic that allows the caster to essentially "possess" humans in order to control them. It was already stated that Loke made up the lie to save Lucy. Don't believe everything the Fairy Tail Wikia says. Some of it is written by amateurs. It is already proven in the manga. Loke still beats Zoldeo and Caprico as he is Lucy's 2nd strongest Celestial Spirit. On top of that, Gray is stronger than Loke.

Please reread that fight.

I did. Show me a panel where Ultear says she lost solely because of her emotions.

You said that Yomazu's statement meant that any of the 7 Kin could no diff him. So you're contradicting yourself now. If Meredy and Kain can't no diff him, then there is no guarantee that Zancrow could either. You must provide proof that Zancrow could no diff him.

In case you didn't know, one thing that I really dislike is criticizing others unfairly. You need to show me the sentence where I said any of the 7 Kin can beat him with No Difficulty. I said Zancrow can beat him with No Difficulty. At this point, I recommend you stop the bias and denial. Apparently, re-reading it won't help.

You said that something was "comedic" if it had jokes or was drawn in a funny way. Natsu + Lucy vs Franmalth had many jokes and was drawn that way. Hence it was a "comedic" fight (by your definition). Mira took over and used Macro to call Elfman; hence she caused Elfman to help her out. Gajeel got free help from Levy against EF Torafusa, so ISD Gajeel < EF Torafusa? Natsu didn't beat EF Tempesta so you can't say LFD Natsu >= Tempesta. Freed's feats in FF arc are very impressive and I would put Freed >= Natsu. Whereas you don't even think Freed is comparable... Rustyrose beats Zancrow.

No, when did that scene have many jokes? The intention was obviously to kill. Sure, there are always drama relief but it is clearly not comedic. My definition is pretty clear. I know Mira used her Macro on Elfman. But tell me, what would happen if she had nobody to use her Macro on? See? You get what I'm saying here? Yes, Gajeel got help from Levy. Levy didn't contribute to the defeat of Torafusa though. You can say that Gajeel was supported by Levy but the difference is that she didn't even touch Torafusa once. I never said that LFD Natsu was defiintely greater than or equal to Tempesta. I said he was on par. No, Freed didn't have impressive feats during the Battle of Fairy Tail Arc. He utterly lost against Mirajane.

"Without much difficulty"? I think you need to reread the fight. Ultear lost because of Ur's emotional interference.

She was clearly overwhelmed in the fight. There is no panels that shows Ultear losing only because of her emotions. That is such a baseless statement.

Yes Tenrou Erza one-shots Tenrou Natsu/Gajeel. Just like BoS Erza one-shots BoS Natsu. Natsu didn't get much stronger, and Erza got stronger as well, so the power gap is unchanged. Azuma defeated Lily in his combat form when said Lily ≈ Gajeel ≈ Natsu.

Tenrou Erza can never one-shot Gajeel or Natsu. That is absurd. Azuma defeating Pantherlily means nothing when comparing to Gajeel or Natsu. It is very obvious that Natsu and Gajeel can kill off Pantherlily if they wanted to.

You argued that Age Seal is "instantaneous", so you have to prove it.

I won't say anymore when you choose to ignore the facts.

There's a "true" power gap as in there is a "false" power gap? What is this? Pre-SO Natsu = Max, pre-SO Erza = Kagura. Pre-SO Natsu + SO = SO Natsu. Pre-SO Erza + SO = SO Erza. Hence gap between SO Natsu and Max = SO = gap between SO Erza and Kagura.

You don't understand English if you think there is a false power gap. The context of that phrase means that there is a difference between looking at the overall power level of both characters and only at specific points within their power range.

Nice made-up statistic by the way. God Serena beating the GOI doesn't PROVE that Serena > Ajeel. It could mean that Erza > GOI. You say that God Serena is significantly stronger than Ajeel. You have to prove it.

It is very much accurate whether you deny it or not. Erza can't beat all of the Gods of Ishgar and Jura because she isn't at the level of taking 4 opponents of that power by herself. God Serena was able to defeat them not because they were weak but because he was too strong.

You just said that DF Natsu beats Ajeel in a 1v1 fight... Prove that they were worried about other Spriggans and not just worried about Ajeel.

The proof was in the urgency and look on their faces. If you don't think DF Natsu can beat Ajeel, just wait for the upcoming chapters. You'll see DF Natsu's true power and make sure you take note of it instead of just disregarding it because it doesn't back up your claim.

I define a one-shot to be when one character defeats another character in one hit while both are using a comparable amount of effort. A no-diff is where one character casually one-shots another character. BoS Erza one-shots BoS Natsu. Erza in Phantom Lord arc one-shot Aria. GMG Jura one-shot Orga. The reason one-shots do not happen more often is because characters generally fight opponents in their power range.

SO =/= POF or Nakama Power, which aren't even relevant to this fight. Your explanations don't disprove Erza one-shotting Kagura.

Your definition of one-shot doesn't even come close to the examples you used. You need to check on that.

Second Origin is not PoF or Nakama Power when Ultear released it in Natsu, Gray, Juvia, and Lucy. However, Erza's Second Origin was never explained so yes, it was. Look at my definition of PoF and Nakama Power again.

Why did Dimaria block every attack instead of no diffing Wendy and Chelia? The answer is that Dimaria can't no diff them.

I never said Dimaria defeats them with No Difficulty. Once again, you're putting words into other people's mouths. It is very low of you to do that especially when you do it repeatedly.

TO Chelia's feats are only impressive if Dimaria (no Time Magic) is impressive. Which you have yet to prove.

I already did. Just read the panel that talked about Dimaria's MP.

You can say that the gap between Dimaria and Chelia > gap between Ajeel and Chelia IF you prove it.

Bluenote almost performed as well as Dimaria against Wendy and Chelia. Ajeel >> Bluenote and no diffs both Wendy and Chelia. Dimaria didn't come close to no diffing Wendy and Chelia.

I can't prove that which is why I said "if". It was obviously a hypothetical statement, in case you didn't quite catch that. Bluenote performed no where near any of the Spriggans so don't even start. Dimaria didn't even go on the offense in the beginning of the fight; therefore, it is reasonable that she didn't kill them off easily.

How do you explain Wendy and Chelia not getting "destroyed" by Dimaria then? When Dimaria is supposedly Ajeel level.

Seriously, when did I say that? Read my full post and stop being lazy by skimming through it. I said that Wendy and Chelia gets destroyed by Dimaria. Third Origin changes all that.

Backtracking, I see. You were the one who brought up Natsu's vs Erza's hype in the first place. And you are saying Dimaria's hype should be ignored because she has feats and so her hype doesn't mean anything, yes?

Wow, to the point you don't even know what you brought up... I never debated about Natsu and Erza until you did. Yes, Dimaria's hype can be ignored that she has feats. Either way, her hype backs up her feats so both are in my favor.

You said "Dimaria can cut them in half" without Time Magic, so why didn't she? Why resort to God Soul against base Wendy and Chelia?

Did you read the chapter? She was about to one-shot Wendy... Why did she resort to God Soul? Because Ultear nullified her Time Magic...

Dimaria's signal disappeared from the radar, so she is dead as well? Laxus did a lot of damage to Wahl, but that doesn't mean he's dead.

Yes, Dimaria is dead. That is why I said the fight was nonsense. On the other hand, Wahl is clearly dead. He had the chance to redeem himself from his failed machina-self and still didn't succeed. His body is blown to pieces. You need to click on the Spoiler tabs when you see one instead of ignoring it.

No, the gap between Erza and Chelia is comparable to that between Makarov and Elfman. You're overestimating TO here.

Considering what Third Origin did to Dimaria and how she compares to the others, you clearly don't understand what Third Origin is.

 

[iDooom]

No, he clearly tanked it and then proceeded to slice through it in order to make physical contact with Wendy. You need better proof to be able to make your claim. If you don't believe me in this panel, watch the anime. Ezel clearly used his hands and arms to block it in the anime.

Spoiler

Meanwhile, in this panel, his body was engulfed in that attack.

Ezel cut up the attack before most of it hit him. I do not consider him to have tanked it. The fact remains that Ezel could not deal with DF Wendy's speed or land attacks on her besides this instance. And Wendy's final attack destroyed him. So DF Wendy > Ezel.

The only reason DF Wendy beat Ezel was because she launched him into Face, a structure with high amounts of magical energy.

Please tell me this is a joke.

No, you misunderstood my post. I stated that Igneel beats FDK Natsu due to the difference magic capacity and brute/physical force. However, the attack that Natsu used on Zeref is equivalent to Igneel's MP provided that you're comparing it to the same amount of magical energy if Igneel were to use it himself. When Silver died, he pretty much gave Gray the rest of his MP so I don't see your point here.

Prove that Silver gave Gray ALL his MP. And Silver > Gray in physical stats, so DeS Silver > DeS Gray.

Before you propose such an idea to prove your point, be realistic about it. Wendy doesn't even close to damaging Mard Geer like DF Natsu did so Gray is obviously not at that level. Slayer advantage gives the user a boost but not to a scale of basically a one-shot. I've explained this to others before and I won't repeat this anymore. If you still don't understand, I'm sorry. Because Gray got his MP from Silver who is many times stronger than Ezel, it is technically impossible for Gray to be that weak.

You say that Gray (without slayer advantage) not damaging Mard Geer means that Gray = DF Natsu. When Wendy would also not damage Mard Geer. So by your logic Gray = Wendy. Slayer advantage gives Wendy and Rogue more damage capacity against dragons than GMG Jura, so it is a huge boost. From their depiction and performance against Mard Geer's thorn attacks, Gray (without slayer adv.) is most definitely comparable to base/LFD Natsu.

Thank you for just contradicting and proving your own actions wrong. You did the same thing as me, so don't act like you're innocent of it. I really haven't seen any panels from you besides ones that don't mean anything as they are already proven wrong by feats.

I provided you panels to show how silly your reasoning was. You are the one who claims that panels of Wendy/Chelia fighting fodder and Erza sitting down PROVES that Wendy and Chelia improved more than Erza. My panels have most certainly not been proven wrong by feats.

The Age Seal in Chelia's fight is compensated for by Ultear's magic. In this discussion thread, it is obvious that Erza is getting the same benefit or advantage as Chelia. So if Erza couldn't beat Ajeel, why can she beat Dimaria when they are equal in feats and power? Age Seal doesn't affect Dimaria's overall MP, especially when it is a secondary magic that is used as support to defeat her opponents. Plus, an attack that is not used cannot be sensed prior to the activation of it. Hence, Dimaria was not at full power when she fought Kagura and Erza would have felt the same amount of power Kagura did at the time.

Dimaria is certainly NOT EQUAL to Ajeel in power. Ajeel > Dimaria (no Time Magic) from all the feats they have shown. Age Seal is Dimaria's primary and most effective magic. Once again, MP =/= strength and Dimaria beating Kagura WITH Age Seal doesn't mean she could beat Kagura without it.

No, it is not circular argument. It is pure logic. It would be circular argument if I said that Erza's strongest attack couldn't kill Dimaria because it couldn't kill Ajeel. However, I specifically noted that Erza was not even using a quarter of her strength. So what you're saying here is that...

• Dimaria = Less than 1/4 Ajeel [Durability]

That is such a ridiculous statement. I will make it clear once again that Dimaria = Ajeel not only because of Spriggan hype but because of the feats against respected characters in relation to the side characters shown.

Using Erza to gauge Ajeel's strength and then using Ajeel to gauge Erza's strength is called circular reasoning. Ajeel > Dimaria in durability is quite likely based on their feats, and no hype states they are equal. Where does it say Erza was using 1/4 strength? Or are you making this up?

That is pure denial. He was in far worse condition than when Erza slashed him. He was still standing when Erza slashed him but the moment that the Jupiter Cannon hit Ajeel, he was falling from the sky in which Erza immediately seized the chance to use Nakagami Starlight on him.

Jupiter destroyed the ship and knocked him into the air... Ajeel not standing on the destroyed ship =/= "far worse condition".

Her stats are incorporated into her overall MP. That is pretty much the definition of Magical Power... The only attribute that is not included is fighting style and technique/strategy.

No, it's the other way around. MP can affect physical stats. However, you can have good physical stats without even being a mage (0 MP), as shown by Precht/Warrod/Yuri and the Sylph Labyrinth hunters. Or you could have lots of MP and subpar stats, like OS Midnight or Brandish (if glass cannon).

For the last time, Human Subordination Magic is magic that allows the caster to essentially "possess" humans in order to control them. It was already stated that Loke made up the lie to save Lucy. Don't believe everything the Fairy Tail Wikia says. Some of it is written by amateurs. It is already proven in the manga. Loke still beats Zoldeo and Caprico as he is Lucy's 2nd strongest Celestial Spirit. On top of that, Gray is stronger than Loke.

Loke was NOT AFFECTED by Caprico's magic, so that DOES NOT prove Gray beats Caprico.

I did. Show me a panel where Ultear says she lost solely because of her emotions.

Villains don't typically say the reasons for their loss. What did Zancrow say was the reason for his loss? Hmm?

In case you didn't know, one thing that I really dislike is criticizing others unfairly. You need to show me the sentence where I said any of the 7 Kin can beat him with No Difficulty. I said Zancrow can beat him with No Difficulty. At this point, I recommend you stop the bias and denial. Apparently, re-reading it won't help.

You said that Yomazu saying that he would stand "no chance" against the 7 Kin meant

Yeah, no match for the 7 Kin of Purgatory. Meaning all of them...

Hence, since you interpret "no match" as no diff, Meredy and Kain should also no diff Yomazu.

No, when did that scene have many jokes? The intention was obviously to kill. Sure, there are always drama relief but it is clearly not comedic. My definition is pretty clear. I know Mira used her Macro on Elfman. But tell me, what would happen if she had nobody to use her Macro on? See? You get what I'm saying here? Yes, Gajeel got help from Levy. Levy didn't contribute to the defeat of Torafusa though. You can say that Gajeel was supported by Levy but the difference is that she didn't even touch Torafusa once. I never said that LFD Natsu was defiintely greater than or equal to Tempesta. I said he was on par. No, Freed didn't have impressive feats during the Battle of Fairy Tail Arc. He utterly lost against Mirajane.

The scene had many jokes such as where Natsu punched Taurus but not Aries and when Natsu said that Franmalth was ruining Hades's image. Now you giving excuses about "intent" that contradicts your definition. Mira knew that Seilah had control over Elfman and so she specifically tried to Take-Over Macro and use it to call Elfman. She would not have done that if Elfman wasn't being controlled. Levy saved Gajeel from drowning and Gajeel also got help from the carbon water hardening his steel, so Torufusa > ISD Gajeel? Based on their fights, Mira is definitely comparable to ISD Gajeel.

Mira > Natsu in FF Arc, so Freed matching Mirajane for a while is impressive. Freed >= Natsu up until Tenrou arc certainly.

She was clearly overwhelmed in the fight. There is no panels that shows Ultear losing only because of her emotions. That is such a baseless statement.

Overwhelmed? So you're going to ignore the flashbacks that Ultear had in the ocean that caused her to stop casting spells?

Tenrou Erza can never one-shot Gajeel or Natsu. That is absurd. Azuma defeating Pantherlily means nothing when comparing to Gajeel or Natsu. It is very obvious that Natsu and Gajeel can kill off Pantherlily if they wanted to.

Pantherlily tanked Gajeel roar with little damage and fought him in CQC. Tenrou Erza one-shotting Gajeel/Natsu is quite reasonable considering BoS Erza one-shots BoS Natsu. Feats in TOH, OS, and Tenrou arc showed that the power gap between Erza and base Natsu did not shrink.

I won't say anymore when you choose to ignore the facts.

So you concede this argument.

You don't understand English if you think there is a false power gap. The context of that phrase means that there is a difference between looking at the overall power level of both characters and only at specific points within their power range.

The point is that your terminology is rather silly when full potential generally means the strongest a character can ever get in their entire lifetime.

It is very much accurate whether you deny it or not. Erza can't beat all of the Gods of Ishgar and Jura because she isn't at the level of taking 4 opponents of that power by herself. God Serena was able to defeat them not because they were weak but because he was too strong.

Proof?

The proof was in the urgency and look on their faces. If you don't think DF Natsu can beat Ajeel, just wait for the upcoming chapters. You'll see DF Natsu's true power and make sure you take note of it instead of just disregarding it because it doesn't back up your claim.

Facial expressions =/= proof. You say that DF Natsu beats Ajeel but can't explain why Natsu didn't use it. Which means your argument is wrong.

So when Natsu doesn't use DF against Jacob you'll concede this argument. Alright.

Your definition of one-shot doesn't even come close to the examples you used. You need to check on that.

Are you saying that some of the one-shots I listed were no-diffs? A no diff is a subset of one-shot and if A can no-diff B that means that A can also one-shot B. You also concede that one-shots do happen but are generally avoided through battle match-ups, yes?

Second Origin is not PoF or Nakama Power when Ultear released it in Natsu, Gray, Juvia, and Lucy. However, Erza's Second Origin was never explained so yes, it was. Look at my definition of PoF and Nakama Power again.

Erza's SO was the same as the SO of everyone else, except it was released later. That doesn't make it POF or Nakama Power.

I never said Dimaria defeats them with No Difficulty. Once again, you're putting words into other people's mouths. It is very low of you to do that especially when you do it repeatedly.

If Dimaria can't no diff Wendy and Chelia, then Ajeel > Dimaria. If you argue that Dimaria = Ajeel, then you must say that Dimaria no diffs Wendy + Chelia.

I already did. Just read the panel that talked about Dimaria's MP.

MP =/= physical stats.

I can't prove that which is why I said "if". It was obviously a hypothetical statement, in case you didn't quite catch that. Bluenote performed no where near any of the Spriggans so don't even start. Dimaria didn't even go on the offense in the beginning of the fight; therefore, it is reasonable that she didn't kill them off easily.

Seriously, when did I say that? Read my full post and stop being lazy by skimming through it. I said that Wendy and Chelia gets destroyed by Dimaria. Third Origin changes all that.

Bluenote "performed no where near any of the Spriggans" and yet was still beating Wendy and Chelia. A no diff of Wendy and Chelia means killing them off easily. Dimaria failed to do that. Therefore, Dimaria cannot no diff Wendy and Chelia. And as shown above, Dimaria < Ajeel.

Wow, to the point you don't even know what you brought up... I never debated about Natsu and Erza until you did. Yes, Dimaria's hype can be ignored that she has feats. Either way, her hype backs up her feats so both are in my favor.

You were the one who said that Alvarez Natsu > Alvarez Erza. Dimaria's hype and feats are not particularly impressive.

Did you read the chapter? She was about to one-shot Wendy... Why did she resort to God Soul? Because Ultear nullified her Time Magic...

There is no evidence that Dimaria would one-shot Wendy. And Dimaria failed to one-shot DF Wendy as well. So you admit that Dimaria can't beat Wendy and Chelia with CQC alone and had to use God Soul. In which case Erza easily beats Dimaria in CQC.

Yes, Dimaria is dead. That is why I said the fight was nonsense. On the other hand, Wahl is clearly dead. He had the chance to redeem himself from his failed machina-self and still didn't succeed. His body is blown to pieces. You need to click on the Spoiler tabs when you see one instead of ignoring it.

Prove that Dimaria is dead.

Considering what Third Origin did to Dimaria and how she compares to the others, you clearly don't understand what Third Origin is.

Dimaria (without Age Seal) currently ranks as the weakest Spriggan. Maybe Jacob (without his hax magic) will be weaker that Dimaria. I don't know yet.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Ezel cut up the attack before most of it hit him. I do not consider him to have tanked it. The fact remains that Ezel could not deal with DF Wendy's speed or land attacks on her besides this instance. And Wendy's final attack destroyed him. So DF Wendy > Ezel.



Please tell me this is a joke.

Actually, it was the opposite. He blocked it first and then cut it up. Nice try though. Why would I make a joke?

Prove that Silver gave Gray ALL his MP. And Silver > Gray in physical stats, so DeS Silver > DeS Gray.

Considering that Silver disappeared because of Keyes' death, all that energy had to have gone somewhere. Therefore, when Silver gave Gray his power, the Law of Conservation of Energy would explain that pretty well. Silver never showed that he was superior to Gray in physical stats. They were both equal, especially in CQC.

You say that Gray (without slayer advantage) not damaging Mard Geer means that Gray = DF Natsu. When Wendy would also not damage Mard Geer. So by your logic Gray = Wendy. Slayer advantage gives Wendy and Rogue more damage capacity against dragons than GMG Jura, so it is a huge boost. From their depiction and performance against Mard Geer's thorn attacks, Gray (without slayer adv.) is most definitely comparable to base/LFD Natsu.

That statement of yours proves that you don't know how to interpret logic, let alone use it. I already explained that there is no way Gray without Slayer Advantage is Wendy's level. I even gave you a comparison. Natsu on the other hand, performed feats similar to Gray and vice versa. Wendy and Rogue barely did any damage to dragons. So you can't use it like they inflicted significant damage on it.

I provided you panels to show how silly your reasoning was. You are the one who claims that panels of Wendy/Chelia fighting fodder and Erza sitting down PROVES that Wendy and Chelia improved more than Erza. My panels have most certainly not been proven wrong by feats.

Sure, I claimed that. I'm not the one who started it so if you decide to argue against someone next time, expect a claim. I didn't even see any panel said from you, so don't act like you gave proof. It is obvious that we didn't even see Erza in action until Team Natsu went against Avatar. At that point, the timeskip was over.

Dimaria is certainly NOT EQUAL to Ajeel in power. Ajeel > Dimaria (no Time Magic) from all the feats they have shown. Age Seal is Dimaria's primary and most effective magic. Once again, MP =/= strength and Dimaria beating Kagura WITH Age Seal doesn't mean she could beat Kagura without it.

You keep saying feats as if there is proof. You haven't shown any panels yet... I'm the one who finds the panels while you deny any information handed over to you. Meanwhile, you sit there, crying about proof. MP = Power. That is literally what it is. She didn't beat Kagura with Age Seal or Kagura wouldn't have seen or even sensed what was happening around her.

Using Erza to gauge Ajeel's strength and then using Ajeel to gauge Erza's strength is called circular reasoning. Ajeel > Dimaria in durability is quite likely based on their feats, and no hype states they are equal. Where does it say Erza was using 1/4 strength? Or are you making this up?

Again, you provide no proof or even reasoning to back up your statements. How do you come up with the conclusions that Ajeel beats Dimaria in attack and defense? Trying to win? Because it clearly doesn't help as you can't even prove yourself.

I'm not making it up... Unless you're trying to say that was 2/3 of her power? Remember, whatever you choose, don't start going back on your words. Honestly, if that single slash was 2/3 of her power or even 1/2, I would have further proof that she was weak. But if you want to support my point, be my guest.

Jupiter destroyed the ship and knocked him into the air... Ajeel not standing on the destroyed ship =/= "far worse condition".

I thought Ajeel could fly in the air with his sand? Why didn't he? Because he couldn't...

Spoiler

No, it's the other way around. MP can affect physical stats. However, you can have good physical stats without even being a mage (0 MP), as shown by Precht/Warrod/Yuri and the Sylph Labyrinth hunters. Or you could have lots of MP and subpar stats, like OS Midnight or Brandish (if glass cannon).

No, it's not the other way around... It's interchangeable... Physical stats determine your overall power while your overall power determines how strong you are. It is a cycle. What? Everyone has MP. Precht/Warrod/Yury all had MP. They just couldn't release it. Just like Lucy in the beginning of the series. She was pretty much an average human being but now she is able to control her powers. The Oración Seis and Midnight are strong. I don't understand your point. Don't even start with putting Brandish near that category.

Loke was NOT AFFECTED by Caprico's magic, so that DOES NOT prove Gray beats Caprico.

It seem so you don't understand what I'm saying. Caprico's magic does not make humans weaker. That was a lie. Instead it allows Zoldeo is control/possess someone. Gray had no disadvantage. He easily takes this win.

Villains don't typically say the reasons for their loss. What did Zancrow say was the reason for his loss? Hmm?

Trying to reverse the question on me? It doesn't work that way. I believe Natsu won the fight and Zancrow didn't. Same goes for Gray vs Ultear. The winner is obvious. You're the one who needs some sort of evidence to say Ultear technically would have won against Gay.

You said that Yomazu saying that he would stand "no chance" against the 7 Kin meant

And that is the same as No Difficulty? Let me help you understand what that means. "No Chance" is saying that Yomazu has no chance to win against the 7 Kin of Purgatory. This can range from No Difficulty to Easy Difficulty. The statement is simple. It was even admitted by Yomazu in the manga. When did Hiro Mashima say he get beaten with "No Difficulty"? "No Difficulty" means "No Difficulty"...

Hence, since you interpret "no match" as no diff, Meredy and Kain should also no diff Yomazu.

I interpreted? Or you did? My interpretation is very clear. You need to work on that ridiculous habit of yours.

The scene had many jokes such as where Natsu punched Taurus but not Aries and when Natsu said that Franmalth was ruining Hades's image. Now you giving excuses about "intent" that contradicts your definition. Mira knew that Seilah had control over Elfman and so she specifically tried to Take-Over Macro and use it to call Elfman. She would not have done that if Elfman wasn't being controlled. Levy saved Gajeel from drowning and Gajeel also got help from the carbon water hardening his steel, so Torufusa > ISD Gajeel? Based on their fights, Mira is definitely comparable to ISD Gajeel.

Mira > Natsu in FF Arc, so Freed matching Mirajane for a while is impressive. Freed >= Natsu up until Tenrou arc certainly.

Those were not jokes... How is that even close to comedy? I didn't laugh at that. Did you? That was literally just for plot. "Intent" was not an excuse. You just don't want to admit it. Do you even know how Natsu ended up there anyways? He was originally trying to save Erza and Mira before he got into that mess. He was clearly angry when he flew into Tartaros. I never said Mira is not comparable to Gajeel. Whether Elfman was there or not, Mirajane was not taking Seilah on very easily. She still had his help to defeat her opponent. What I was saying earlier was that I I disagree with the fact that Mira is on the same level as LFD Natsu. Gajeel got help from Levy indirectly so that made him win the fight but Levy still didn't do anything to Torafusa.

I would agree that Mirajane beats Natsu in the Battle of Fairy Tail Arc. But Freed got killed in that fight. He didn't even seem on par with her once. She had no scratches while he was on the ground. Natsu clearly beats Freed and closed the gap with Mirajane in the Tartaros Arc.

Overwhelmed? So you're going to ignore the flashbacks that Ultear had in the ocean that caused her to stop casting spells?

No, aside from that scene, she was not even close to beating Gray. Gray was able to overpower her physically after she rendered his magic useless. I don't see how it could have gone any other way, especially whenUltear even said herself that the battle would turn physical.

Pantherlily tanked Gajeel roar with little damage and fought him in CQC. Tenrou Erza one-shotting Gajeel/Natsu is quite reasonable considering BoS Erza one-shots BoS Natsu. Feats in TOH, OS, and Tenrou arc showed that the power gap between Erza and base Natsu did not shrink.

Not even. Erza had never been able to one-shot Natsu. That is such nonsense. Pantherlily cannot even come close to any of them even though he is a strong fighter and better than many Fairy Tail mages. Feats in Tenrou and Tartaros did show the gap between Erza and Natsu shrinking.

So you concede this argument.

Concede? More like I can't argue with someone so stubborn and illogical...

The point is that your terminology is rather silly when full potential generally means the strongest a character can ever get in their entire lifetime.

No... Maximum potential or prime is when a character becomes the strongest that he/she will ever be in their lifetime. Full potential means that both fighters are giving it their all in their strongest state or form.

Proof?

If you had been reading the manga, you wouldn't need to ask.

Facial expressions =/= proof. You say that DF Natsu beats Ajeel but can't explain why Natsu didn't use it. Which means your argument is wrong.

So when Natsu doesn't use DF against Jacob you'll concede this argument. Alright.

Trying to back out now? I'll concede when Natsu uses DF and loses. If he doesn't use it against Jacob, then it means Jacob is weak which I have already predicted in a different thread since he first appeared.

Are you saying that some of the one-shots I listed were no-diffs? A no diff is a subset of one-shot and if A can no-diff B that means that A can also one-shot B. You also concede that one-shots do happen but are generally avoided through battle match-ups, yes?

Exactly. Don't give me your definition. I already know your definition. That is not the part that I disagree with. Your examples are what makes me appalled that you could even come up with such an inaccurate claim.

Erza's SO was the same as the SO of everyone else, except it was released later. That doesn't make it POF or Nakama Power.

Of course that doesn't. The fact that she could choose when to release it and how she beat Minerva with it was PoF and Nakama Power. The release of your inner power makes more sense the way everyone else did. Erza was pretty much the only exception.

If Dimaria can't no diff Wendy and Chelia, then Ajeel > Dimaria. If you argue that Dimaria = Ajeel, then you must say that Dimaria no diffs Wendy + Chelia.

Wait, are you talking about Base Wendy + Chelia or DF Wendy + TO Chelia? My previous statement in the last post was referring to DF Wendy and TO Chelia since you didn't specify if they were Base or not. So I assumed their strongest form.

On the other hand, Base is different. I already said this but I'll repeat it again. Dimaria would have killed Wendy with No Difficulty if it weren't for Ultear... Aside from that, she never even attacked Base Wendy or Base Chelia so anything else lacks feats...

Bluenote "performed no where near any of the Spriggans" and yet was still beating Wendy and Chelia. A no diff of Wendy and Chelia means killing them off easily. Dimaria failed to do that. Therefore, Dimaria cannot no diff Wendy and Chelia. And as shown above, Dimaria < Ajeel.

Dimaria never even went on the offensive... So that is invalid.

You were the one who said that Alvarez Natsu > Alvarez Erza. Dimaria's hype and feats are not particularly impressive.

Yeah, I did... In response to you bringing up both of them.

There is no evidence that Dimaria would one-shot Wendy. And Dimaria failed to one-shot DF Wendy as well. So you admit that Dimaria can't beat Wendy and Chelia with CQC alone and had to use God Soul. In which case Erza easily beats Dimaria in CQC.

Well if she wouldn't have one-shotted her, Ultear wouldn't need to intervene. The fact that she did means that she sensed it was urgent. Dimaria destroys both of them in CQC alone... I never said otherwise.

Prove that Dimaria is dead.

Well that we will have to wait until the end of the arc.

Dimaria (without Age Seal) currently ranks as the weakest Spriggan. Maybe Jacob (without his hax magic) will be weaker that Dimaria. I don't know yet.

No, without Age Seal, Dimaria ranks as an average Spriggan like Ajeel. With Age Seal, she is OP and pretty much high tier like Brandish.

 

[iDooom]

Actually, it was the opposite. He blocked it first and then cut it up. Nice try though. Why would I make a joke?

Ezel cut up the attack before the majority of the beam had time to hit him. You seriously think DF Wendy beat Ezel due to face??

Considering that Silver disappeared because of Keyes' death, all that energy had to have gone somewhere. Therefore, when Silver gave Gray his power, the Law of Conservation of Energy would explain that pretty well. Silver never showed that he was superior to Gray in physical stats. They were both equal, especially in CQC.

This is a magical universe where Conservation of Energy doesn't apply. Tell me where the energy for Ankhseram's curse comes from.

Silver showed pretty clearly that he was holding back while fighting Gray. And he didn't give Gray all his MP.

That statement of yours proves that you don't know how to interpret logic, let alone use it. I already explained that there is no way Gray without Slayer Advantage is Wendy's level. I even gave you a comparison. Natsu on the other hand, performed feats similar to Gray and vice versa. Wendy and Rogue barely did any damage to dragons. So you can't use it like they inflicted significant damage on it.

You're the one who doesn't know what logic means. You said

Wendy doesn't even close to damaging Mard Geer like DF Natsu did

after arguing that DF Natsu and Gray (without slayer adv.) NOT damaging Mard Geer means Gray (w/o adv.) = DF Natsu. When Gray (w/o adv.) was portrayed to be comparable to base/LFD Natsu in said Mard Geer fight.

Sure, I claimed that. I'm not the one who started it so if you decide to argue against someone next time, expect a claim. I didn't even see any panel said from you, so don't act like you gave proof. It is obvious that we didn't even see Erza in action until Team Natsu went against Avatar. At that point, the timeskip was over.

Now this is just blatantly dishonest. I provided the following panels earlier:

Spoiler

Here is "proof" that Erza improved more over the timeskip than Wendy and Chelia. "At that point the timeskip was over"... Do you not understand what a timeskip is? The timeskip was already "over" when Lucy saw Natsu in GMG. It was "over" when they found Wendy and Chelia. Characters like Laxus didn't even appear until after the Avatar arc, so are you saying they didn't improve? Your arguments are becoming more and more of a joke.

You keep saying feats as if there is proof. You haven't shown any panels yet... I'm the one who finds the panels while you deny any information handed over to you. Meanwhile, you sit there, crying about proof. MP = Power. That is literally what it is. She didn't beat Kagura with Age Seal or Kagura wouldn't have seen or even sensed what was happening around her.

If you make a claim and can't prove it, your claim is meaningless. Saying I "haven't shown panels yet" is a blatant lie. Your panels do not come close to proving your claims, so you have to find more evidence. MP = MAGICAL Power =/= Physical Power. I've already shown via Sylph Labyrinth that people can have strong physical power without high MP. The fastest and strongest non-mage doesn't automatically become the strongest mage with the most MP.

Again, you provide no proof or even reasoning to back up your statements. How do you come up with the conclusions that Ajeel beats Dimaria in attack and defense? Trying to win? Because it clearly doesn't help as you can't even prove yourself.

This is done through simple comparisons between base Wendy and Chelia and Bluenote. Ajeel >> Bluenote >= Wendy/Chelia while Dimaria > Wendy/Chelia. Hence, Ajeel > Dimaria. This is particularly obvious in Dimaria's attacks, which failed to do much against base Wendy and Chelia.

I'm not making it up... Unless you're trying to say that was 2/3 of her power? Remember, whatever you choose, don't start going back on your words. Honestly, if that single slash was 2/3 of her power or even 1/2, I would have further proof that she was weak. But if you want to support my point, be my guest.

So you are conceding that your statement that Erza was using 1/4 of her power was something you made up. You cannot use Erza vs Ajeel to "prove" that Erza is weak because you are guessing Ajeel's strength through Erza. Any argument you make using this logic will be circular.

I thought Ajeel could fly in the air with his sand? Why didn't he? Because he couldn't...

Spoiler

Ajeel was standing on the ship, got hit by Jupiter, and got hit by Nakagami before he could fly.

No, it's not the other way around... It's interchangeable... Physical stats determine your overall power while your overall power determines how strong you are. It is a cycle. What? Everyone has MP. Precht/Warrod/Yury all had MP. They just couldn't release it. Just like Lucy in the beginning of the series. She was pretty much an average human being but now she is able to control her powers. The Oración Seis and Midnight are strong. I don't understand your point. Don't even start with putting Brandish near that category.

Take the fastest and strongest non-mage in the world. Teach them magic. You're saying this person would automatically have the most MP because you claim that MP = physical power. That's absolutely ridiculous. Also, Makarov has a lot of MP but is slower than ToH Jellal w/ Meteor.

Lucy always a mage, even at BoS... Get your facts straight.

It seem so you don't understand what I'm saying. Caprico's magic does not make humans weaker. That was a lie. Instead it allows Zoldeo is control/possess someone. Gray had no disadvantage. He easily takes this win.

Once again, prove it.

Trying to reverse the question on me? It doesn't work that way. I believe Natsu won the fight and Zancrow didn't. Same goes for Gray vs Ultear. The winner is obvious. You're the one who needs some sort of evidence to say Ultear technically would have won against Gay.

You said that Ultear never states the reason for her loss as her emotions. However, NONE of the 7 Kin stated their reasons for loss, including Ultear. Hence, your argument is pointless. You think that Ajeel would have "technically won" against Erza, so why don't you provide some evidence.

And that is the same as No Difficulty? Let me help you understand what that means. "No Chance" is saying that Yomazu has no chance to win against the 7 Kin of Purgatory. This can range from No Difficulty to Easy Difficulty. The statement is simple. It was even admitted by Yomazu in the manga. When did Hiro Mashima say he get beaten with "No Difficulty"? "No Difficulty" means "No Difficulty"...

I interpreted? Or you did? My interpretation is very clear. You need to work on that ridiculous habit of yours.

You interpreted Yomazu's statement as meaning no diff. I said that statement could mean Zancrow could mid diff Yomazu, but YOU said that no chance = no diff and that Zancrow could no diff Yomazu. By the same statement and logic, you must think that Meldy and Kain no diff Yomazu. Please do not resort to deceit in order to win, and reread your posts if you are confused. If you are now changing your definition to no chance = no-low diff, then you must prove that this holds and also that Zancrow does not low diff Yomazu.

Those were not jokes... How is that even close to comedy? I didn't laugh at that. Did you? That was literally just for plot. "Intent" was not an excuse. You just don't want to admit it. Do you even know how Natsu ended up there anyways? He was originally trying to save Erza and Mira before he got into that mess. He was clearly angry when he flew into Tartaros. I never said Mira is not comparable to Gajeel. Whether Elfman was there or not, Mirajane was not taking Seilah on very easily. She still had his help to defeat her opponent. What I was saying earlier was that I I disagree with the fact that Mira is on the same level as LFD Natsu. Gajeel got help from Levy indirectly so that made him win the fight but Levy still didn't do anything to Torafusa.

Franmalth vs Lucy and Natsu fulfills your definition of a "comedic fight", but you say it isn't because of "Intent". This is called making excuses. If Mira is comparable to ISD Gajeel, then she is also comparable to LFD Natsu unless you are saying LFD Natsu and ISD Gajeel are not comparable.

I would agree that Mirajane beats Natsu in the Battle of Fairy Tail Arc. But Freed got killed in that fight. He didn't even seem on par with her once. She had no scratches while he was on the ground. Natsu clearly beats Freed and closed the gap with Mirajane in the Tartaros Arc.

You concede that Mirajane beats Natsu in FF Arc. Thus, Freed < Mira doesn't prove anything about Freed vs Natsu. Prove Natsu "clearly beats" Freed.

No, aside from that scene, she was not even close to beating Gray. Gray was able to overpower her physically after she rendered his magic useless. I don't see how it could have gone any other way, especially whenUltear even said herself that the battle would turn physical.

I have already provided you a panel where Ultear overpowered Gray in CQC. Ultear also straight up tanked one of Gray's strongest moves when she was surprised with red ice. Ultear wasn't even incapacitated at the end of the fight, but lost the will to fight due to her emotions.

Not even. Erza had never been able to one-shot Natsu. That is such nonsense. Pantherlily cannot even come close to any of them even though he is a strong fighter and better than many Fairy Tail mages. Feats in Tenrou and Tartaros did show the gap between Erza and Natsu shrinking.

Again you keep saying that Erza can't one-shot Natsu, which you don't have evidence for and which is blatantly false.

Spoiler

Here's Erza one-shotting the guy who beat Natsu:

Spoiler

In OS arc, Erza handled Cobra and Racer at the same time when Racer alone blitzed and defeated Natsu and Cobra alone beat Natsu despite Natsu getting two lucky breaks. Erza vs Erza in Edolas accidentally blew up an island. The gap between Erza and base Natsu shrunk? No. Tartaros Natsu slightly closed the gap by getting LFD. Tartaros Erza still one-shots Tartaros base Natsu, but not Tartaros LFD Natsu, who gets mid-diffed.

Concede? More like I can't argue with someone so stubborn and illogical...

The one who is stubborn and illogical here is you. I'll take your concession anyway.

No... Maximum potential or prime is when a character becomes the strongest that he/she will ever be in their lifetime. Full potential means that both fighters are giving it their all in their strongest state or form.

Definition of potential:

1. 1: existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>

Full potential = full (maximum) power a character can POTENTIALLY have.

If you had been reading the manga, you wouldn't need to ask.

So you don't have proof and concede this argument as well. Alright.

Trying to back out now? I'll concede when Natsu uses DF and loses. If he doesn't use it against Jacob, then it means Jacob is weak which I have already predicted in a different thread since he first appeared.

You are still assuming that Natsu CAN CHOOSE to use DF against Jacob. Which he can't. On the contrary, if Natsu almost loses against Jacob and fails to use DF or FDK moves, this will be because Natsu CANNOT use DF at will or FDK moves without Igneel's power.

Exactly. Don't give me your definition. I already know your definition. That is not the part that I disagree with. Your examples are what makes me appalled that you could even come up with such an inaccurate claim.

Erza one-shotted Aria. Jura one-shotted Orga. You have a problem with this?

Of course that doesn't. The fact that she could choose when to release it and how she beat Minerva with it was PoF and Nakama Power. The release of your inner power makes more sense the way everyone else did. Erza was pretty much the only exception.

So that makes it POF and Nakama, how? How is friendship related to SO?

Wait, are you talking about Base Wendy + Chelia or DF Wendy + TO Chelia? My previous statement in the last post was referring to DF Wendy and TO Chelia since you didn't specify if they were Base or not. So I assumed their strongest form.

On the other hand, Base is different. I already said this but I'll repeat it again. Dimaria would have killed Wendy with No Difficulty if it weren't for Ultear... Aside from that, she never even attacked Base Wendy or Base Chelia so anything else lacks feats...

Dimaria never even went on the offensive... So that is invalid.

Wendy and Chelia = base Wendy and Chelia. Assuming Chelia means TO Chelia is silly. If it doesn't have a TO, it doesn't mean TO.

"If it weren't for Ultear". So once again you are bringing up Age Seal when it is restricted. You must be desperate.

"Dimaria never even went on the offensive"... I really can't take you seriously anymore. Dimaria attacked Wendy and Chelia but didn't manage to do anything so you say that Dimaria never attacked them... Just because Dimaria's attack didn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yeah, I did... In response to you bringing up both of them.

So I'm glad that we settled Natsu < Erza.

Well if she wouldn't have one-shotted her, Ultear wouldn't need to intervene. The fact that she did means that she sensed it was urgent. Dimaria destroys both of them in CQC alone... I never said otherwise.

The fact that you're bringing up Ultear again means that you are adding Age Seal to the mix. Ultear intervening doesn't mean that Dimaria would have one-shotted Wendy, when Dimaria may have needed multiple strikes. If Dimaria could beat them with CQC, why did she use GOD SOUL? Answer this.

Well that we will have to wait until the end of the arc.

So once again you have no proof.

No, without Age Seal, Dimaria ranks as an average Spriggan like Ajeel. With Age Seal, she is OP and pretty much high tier like Brandish.

Brandish isn't high tier and Dimaria (w/o Age Seal) isn't average.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Ezel cut up the attack before the majority of the beam had time to hit him. You seriously think DF Wendy beat Ezel due to face??

Show me proof of Ezel cutting it before it hit him. I already gave you panels and told you to watch the anime. Giving me a sentence that was made up from your mind tells me nothing. Does it look like I'm serious? If I was joking, you would know by now.

This is a magical universe where Conservation of Energy doesn't apply. Tell me where the energy for Ankhseram's curse comes from.

Silver showed pretty clearly that he was holding back while fighting Gray. And he didn't give Gray all his MP.

Where the energy from Ankhseram's curse comes from? From Ankhseram himself? What kind of question is that? Again, giving me your ideas doesn't tell me anything... You still cannot provide evidence to support your claim.

You're the one who doesn't know what logic means. You said

after arguing that DF Natsu and Gray (without slayer adv.) NOT damaging Mard Geer means Gray (w/o adv.) = DF Natsu. When Gray (w/o adv.) was portrayed to be comparable to base/LFD Natsu in said Mard Geer fight.

Yeah, so? How does Wendy come in? Gray is stronger than Wendy, that is a given. She can't even come close to defeating him in Base Form, let alone DeS. Natsu, on the other hand, fought one of the stronger 9 Demon Gates, who Gray should be on par with even without Slayer Advantage since he one-shotted him. You know that DeS ≠ Slayer Advantage, right? Just like DF does not necessarily mean Slayer Advantage.

Now this is just blatantly dishonest. I provided the following panels earlier:

Spoiler

Here is "proof" that Erza improved more over the timeskip than Wendy and Chelia. "At that point the timeskip was over"... Do you not understand what a timeskip is? The timeskip was already "over" when Lucy saw Natsu in GMG. It was "over" when they found Wendy and Chelia. Characters like Laxus didn't even appear until after the Avatar arc, so are you saying they didn't improve? Your arguments are becoming more and more of a joke.

Don't give me a panel during the Avatar Arc and Alvarez Arc. I ignored it for a reason. Avatar Arc was right after the timeskip and right before the Alvarez Arc... I thought the discussion here was about the training done before they fought the Spriggans appearance. I can give you a panel of Wendy in the Alvarez Arc fighting Dimaria too. Also, don't give me panels of Erza and Team Natsu fighting Avatar because Wendy did too. In case you haven't been following the discussion, the question is who was portrayed to have done more training?

By the way, I bring up Wendy and Chelia's fight against Orochi Fin to explain that this wasn't just a one-time battle.

Spoiler

In this panel, Chelia mentions that Lamia Scale has been in conflict with this guild for years, meaning Wendy and Chelia are familiar with them. If you don't believe it, take a look at this panel.

Spoiler

Here, Orochi Fin members are seen recognizing Wendy and Chelia.

If you make a claim and can't prove it, your claim is meaningless. Saying I "haven't shown panels yet" is a blatant lie. Your panels do not come close to proving your claims, so you have to find more evidence. MP = MAGICAL Power =/= Physical Power. I've already shown via Sylph Labyrinth that people can have strong physical power without high MP. The fastest and strongest non-mage doesn't automatically become the strongest mage with the most MP.

What are you talking about? This is Fairy Tail... I know what MP is... Physical Power has nothing to do with this which is why I ignored your statement about Strength. We were talking about power in general and then you decide to deviate from the topic. MP = Overall Power. Anything else is just denial. Is Elfman or Mard Geer Stronger? How about Gray, Natsu, Erza, Bachhus? Someone as big as Makarov should be able to handle Mard Geer if that is the case. Why didn't he? Because your claim is false. Sylph Labrinyth are weak. Saying that they have strong physical power means nothing especially since they couldn't inflict any damage on anyone. You would have to be as big as a dragon to even compare. Even so, Dragons have MP in Fairy Tail.

This is done through simple comparisons between base Wendy and Chelia and Bluenote. Ajeel >> Bluenote >= Wendy/Chelia while Dimaria > Wendy/Chelia. Hence, Ajeel > Dimaria. This is particularly obvious in Dimaria's attacks, which failed to do much against base Wendy and Chelia.

So Dimaria is weaker than Bluenote? You should realize when your list does not accurately match the manga. First, Wendy and Chelia beat Dimaria because of Chelia's Third Origin so that proves the actual power of it. Second, Ajeel is not stronger than Dimaria. Third, we're not talking about base here. If we were, Ajeel would beat both of them and Dimaria would beat both of them. Then Ajeel and Dimaria would beat Bluenote as well, that makes the last comparison unknown... You can assume but there is no proof to back it up.

So you are conceding that your statement that Erza was using 1/4 of her power was something you made up. You cannot use Erza vs Ajeel to "prove" that Erza is weak because you are guessing Ajeel's strength through Erza. Any argument you make using this logic will be circular.

So did she use half her power? You tell me. Unless you can't estimate and just want to argue for the sake of it.

Ajeel was standing on the ship, got hit by Jupiter, and got hit by Nakagami before he could fly.

No, he had time. Erza was preparing her attack when he was already in the air. This is not some instantaneous feat. The fact here was that Ajeel left himself vulnerable as he was unable to defend himself.

Take the fastest and strongest non-mage in the world. Teach them magic. You're saying this person would automatically have the most MP because you claim that MP = physical power. That's absolutely ridiculous. Also, Makarov has a lot of MP but is slower than ToH Jellal w/ Meteor.

Lucy always a mage, even at BoS... Get your facts straight.

Don't give me nonsense and then tell me to get my facts straight because you twist words. I said MP = Power = Overall Power. Nobody starts out with a lot of MP. You don't even understand the basics. One has to train to release their magic energy which increases their MP. The fastest and strongest non-mage in the word is irrelevant. Why? Because in Fairy Tail, Magical Energy is the dominant source for power, not Physical Energy. So, the strongest and fastest non-mage in Fairy Tail is weaker than the weakest mage in Fairy Tail.

Once again, prove it.

Loke told Gray, Cana, and Lucy that Caprico was his opponent while they should all run. Later, Loke admits that he just didn't wanted Lucy to witness that Caprico was actually one of Layla's Celestial Spirits. Even if they become weaker, that doesn't mean anything as it was never proven that Caprico could beat them. After all, Gray was about to destroy him when Loke stopped him.

You said that Ultear never states the reason for her loss as her emotions. However, NONE of the 7 Kin stated their reasons for loss, including Ultear. Hence, your argument is pointless. You think that Ajeel would have "technically won" against Erza, so why don't you provide some evidence.

It doesn't matter. It is obvious that Gray was not losing and will not lose. Ultear already acknowledged that the fight will come down to a physical fight. There is no way Gray loses that.

You interpreted Yomazu's statement as meaning no diff. I said that statement could mean Zancrow could mid diff Yomazu, but YOU said that no chance = no diff and that Zancrow could no diff Yomazu. By the same statement and logic, you must think that Meldy and Kain no diff Yomazu. Please do not resort to deceit in order to win, and reread your posts if you are confused. If you are now changing your definition to no chance = no-low diff, then you must prove that this holds and also that Zancrow does not low diff Yomazu.

No, I said that No Chance could mean No Difficulty or Easy Difficulty. Even Medium Difficulty. No Chance just means that he cannot beat them. The only battle that I claimed would be No Difficulty was Zancrow vs Yomazu. I'm not twisting my words here.

Franmalth vs Lucy and Natsu fulfills your definition of a "comedic fight", but you say it isn't because of "Intent". This is called making excuses. If Mira is comparable to ISD Gajeel, then she is also comparable to LFD Natsu unless you are saying LFD Natsu and ISD Gajeel are not comparable.

Well, my definition doesn't say anything about that fight being comedic. That is your interpretation of my definition. Yes, Mirajane can be comparable to ISD Gajeel while still being a little weaker than LFD Natsu. After all, Gajeel needed help to beat Etherious Torafusa while Natsu was most likely on par with Etherious Tempesta. Plus, Tempesta is a little stronger than Torafusa by 100 points.

You concede that Mirajane beats Natsu in FF Arc. Thus, Freed < Mira doesn't prove anything about Freed vs Natsu. Prove Natsu "clearly beats" Freed.

Well, I can't really concede when I never disagreed with that but Natsu clearly beats Freed because Freed doesn't stand a chance to Mirajane while Natsu would with difficulty.

I have already provided you a panel where Ultear overpowered Gray in CQC. Ultear also straight up tanked one of Gray's strongest moves when she was surprised with red ice. Ultear wasn't even incapacitated at the end of the fight, but lost the will to fight due to her emotions.

I also provided a panel where Gray overpowered her in CQC. Sure, Gray's moves didn't really affect Ultear but her attacks didn't affect him either. It was to the point where Ultear mentioned that this would be a physical battle. Once again, I can't imagine Gray losing that. Even if we can't say he wins, he'll at least be on par.

Again you keep saying that Erza can't one-shot Natsu, which you don't have evidence for and which is blatantly false.

Spoiler

Here's Erza one-shotting the guy who beat Natsu:

Spoiler

That first panel doesn't show Natsu one-shotted, plus it was comedy. You really think Erza and Natsu were full-power with the intent to kill each other right there? The second panel doesn't mean anything. You have to analyze the situation. Natsu used a lot of magic and energy on Totomaru. You can see injuries on Natsu before he even ran into Aria.On the other hand, Erza already had time to recover from the Jupiter Cannon attack. Additionally, Aria might have extremely low defense. This means Erza might not be able to one-shot Natsu as he has a higher defense to make up for his lower attack. It was clear that Aria stood still when Erza ran at him but he dodged Natsu's attacks which doesn't tell us anything.

In OS arc, Erza handled Cobra and Racer at the same time when Racer alone blitzed and defeated Natsu and Cobra alone beat Natsu despite Natsu getting two lucky breaks. Erza vs Erza in Edolas accidentally blew up an island. The gap between Erza and base Natsu shrunk? No. Tartaros Natsu slightly closed the gap by getting LFD. Tartaros Erza still one-shots Tartaros base Natsu, but not Tartaros LFD Natsu, who gets mid-diffed.

No, Erza couldn't have defeated Cobra and Racer. Yes, she handled them. Doesn't mean she can beat them. Natsu ended up beating Cobra. Erza Scarlet fighting Erza Knightwalker doesn't say much as you have to account for Knightwalker's MP in that explosion too. So I don't see how Erza one-shots Natsu.

Definition of potential:

1. 1: existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>

Full potential = full (maximum) power a character can POTENTIALLY have.

Full potential is the highest amount of power a character can attain at a certain time. Maximum potential is the highest amount of power a character can attain during their whole lifetime. I don't understand what's so hard to understand.

You are still assuming that Natsu CAN CHOOSE to use DF against Jacob. Which he can't. On the contrary, if Natsu almost loses against Jacob and fails to use DF or FDK moves, this will be because Natsu CANNOT use DF at will or FDK moves without Igneel's power.

Fine. You can believe whatever you want. I can't prove it because it hasn't happend yet. But if Natsu ends up going DF at will in this arc, you lose this debate.

Erza one-shotted Aria. Jura one-shotted Orga. You have a problem with this?

I have no problem with that. Although you have to take into account that Aria already used up some of his magic but that doesn't matter. As for Jura and Orga, that fight was for comedy purposes. Would it be a one-shot? Yes, with Jura's strongest attack. With just a chop to Orga's head? No.

So that makes it POF and Nakama, how? How is friendship related to SO?

She had to win that fight for Fairy Tail or they would never have won and been the Number 1 Guild in Fiore.

Wendy and Chelia = base Wendy and Chelia. Assuming Chelia means TO Chelia is silly. If it doesn't have a TO, it doesn't mean TO.

The point of this discussion is to debate whether Erza wins against Dimaria. The results were that TO Chelia beats Dimaria. Okay, if you want it to be Base Chelia and Base Wendy, then yes, they lose against Dimaria quite easily.

"If it weren't for Ultear". So once again you are bringing up Age Seal when it is restricted. You must be desperate.

I'm just explaining to you why she used God Soul and her one-shot didn't happen since you seem not to understand it... Never said that this proves Dimaria beats Erza.

"Dimaria never even went on the offensive"... I really can't take you seriously anymore. Dimaria attacked Wendy and Chelia but didn't manage to do anything so you say that Dimaria never attacked them... Just because Dimaria's attack didn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Against Base Wendy and Base Chelia? She never attacked them. They always initiated by jumping at her. She just blocked their attacks casually. If you're talking about DF Wendy and TO Chelia, then that is a different story. Both sides went on the offensive.

The fact that you're bringing up Ultear again means that you are adding Age Seal to the mix. Ultear intervening doesn't mean that Dimaria would have one-shotted Wendy, when Dimaria may have needed multiple strikes. If Dimaria could beat them with CQC, why did she use GOD SOUL? Answer this.

No, you were arguing why Dimaria didn't just one-shot Chelia and Wendy. I said that it was because of Ultear. If Time Magic was restricted in the fight against Erza, Dimaria wouldn't be surprised that her Time Magic doesn't work and so she wouldn't just use her sword to kill Erza. Again, Dimaria used God Soul because her Time Magic was rendered useless. She has no other option as that is pretty much her only magic left. Like I said, it was more of a surprise than anything.

Brandish isn't high tier and Dimaria (w/o Age Seal) isn't average.

That is my belief from what I read in the manga. You have yours so I won't argue on this.

 

[iDooom]

Show me proof of Ezel cutting it before it hit him. I already gave you panels and told you to watch the anime. Giving me a sentence that was made up from your mind tells me nothing. Does it look like I'm serious? If I was joking, you would know by now.

Wendy's attack was a beam. Ezel cut up the attack before the entire beam hit him. Or are you saying that Ezel got hit by the entire attack before cutting it up? If you really think DF Wendy only beat Ezel due to hitting him into Face... I have nothing more to say to you.

Where the energy from Ankhseram's curse comes from? From Ankhseram himself? What kind of question is that? Again, giving me your ideas doesn't tell me anything... You still cannot provide evidence to support your claim.

And where does Ankseram's energy come from? Hmm?

Yeah, so? How does Wendy come in? Gray is stronger than Wendy, that is a given. She can't even come close to defeating him in Base Form, let alone DeS. Natsu, on the other hand, fought one of the stronger 9 Demon Gates, who Gray should be on par with even without Slayer Advantage since he one-shotted him. You know that DeS ≠ Slayer Advantage, right? Just like DF does not necessarily mean Slayer Advantage.

First off, Tempesta was a mid-tier demon gate. Second, Gray being on par with Tempesta means DeS Gray (no adv.) = LFD Natsu < DF Natsu.

Don't give me a panel during the Avatar Arc and Alvarez Arc. I ignored it for a reason. Avatar Arc was right after the timeskip and right before the Alvarez Arc... I thought the discussion here was about the training done before they fought the Spriggans appearance. I can give you a panel of Wendy in the Alvarez Arc fighting Dimaria too. Also, don't give me panels of Erza and Team Natsu fighting Avatar because Wendy did too. In case you haven't been following the discussion, the question is who was portrayed to have done more training?

By the way, I bring up Wendy and Chelia's fight against Orochi Fin to explain that this wasn't just a one-time battle.

Laxus didn't even show up in Avatar Arc. So by your logic Wendy and Chelia improved more than Laxus did... DF Wendy got stomped by Dimaria.

Yet you've already admitted that fighting fodders doesn't improve combat strength. Wendy and Chelia fighting Orochi Fodders is irrelevant.

What are you talking about? This is Fairy Tail... I know what MP is... Physical Power has nothing to do with this which is why I ignored your statement about Strength. We were talking about power in general and then you decide to deviate from the topic. MP = Overall Power. Anything else is just denial. Is Elfman or Mard Geer Stronger? How about Gray, Natsu, Erza, Bachhus? Someone as big as Makarov should be able to handle Mard Geer if that is the case. Why didn't he? Because your claim is false. Sylph Labrinyth are weak. Saying that they have strong physical power means nothing especially since they couldn't inflict any damage on anyone. You would have to be as big as a dragon to even compare. Even so, Dragons have MP in Fairy Tail.

MP =/= Overall Power. I have already shown that MP = Magical Power =/= Physical Power. Overall Power = MP + Physical Power =/= MP. Two people with the same amount of MP can have different amounts of Physical Power and thus different Overall Power. Sylph Labyrinth is not weak when they gave SO Natsu, Lucy, and Wendy trouble and would likely defeat BoS Natsu, Lucy, and Wendy.

So Dimaria is weaker than Bluenote? You should realize when your list does not accurately match the manga. First, Wendy and Chelia beat Dimaria because of Chelia's Third Origin so that proves the actual power of it. Second, Ajeel is not stronger than Dimaria. Third, we're not talking about base here. If we were, Ajeel would beat both of them and Dimaria would beat both of them. Then Ajeel and Dimaria would beat Bluenote as well, that makes the last comparison unknown... You can assume but there is no proof to back it up.

If you had actually read my list you would see that I said

Ajeel >> Bluenote >= Wendy/Chelia while Dimaria > Wendy/Chelia

meaning Ajeel > Dimaria > Bluenote >= Wendy/Chelia. Trying to misrepresent what I say will not win you this argument. I've already shown many times that Ajeel > Dimaria in physical stats, and I am obviously using base Wendy and Chelia to compare them.

So did she use half her power? You tell me. Unless you can't estimate and just want to argue for the sake of it.

It doesn't matter because as I have already said, using Erza to gauge Ajeel to gauge Erza is circular argument.

No, he had time. Erza was preparing her attack when he was already in the air. This is not some instantaneous feat. The fact here was that Ajeel left himself vulnerable as he was unable to defend himself.

So what. This could just mean that Erza is fast.

Don't give me nonsense and then tell me to get my facts straight because you twist words. I said MP = Power = Overall Power. Nobody starts out with a lot of MP. You don't even understand the basics. One has to train to release their magic energy which increases their MP. The fastest and strongest non-mage in the word is irrelevant. Why? Because in Fairy Tail, Magical Energy is the dominant source for power, not Physical Energy. So, the strongest and fastest non-mage in Fairy Tail is weaker than the weakest mage in Fairy Tail.

"The strongest and fastest non-mage in Fairy Tail is weaker than the weakest mage in Fairy Tail." This is probably your sixth lie so far in this thread.

Spoiler

Here you have non-mages overpowering mages. You just disproved your own argument.

Loke told Gray, Cana, and Lucy that Caprico was his opponent while they should all run. Later, Loke admits that he just didn't wanted Lucy to witness that Caprico was actually one of Layla's Celestial Spirits. Even if they become weaker, that doesn't mean anything as it was never proven that Caprico could beat them. After all, Gray was about to destroy him when Loke stopped him.

You are the one who has to prove Gray > Caprico.

It doesn't matter. It is obvious that Gray was not losing and will not lose. Ultear already acknowledged that the fight will come down to a physical fight. There is no way Gray loses that.

Except that Gray got trashed in their physical confrontations.

No, I said that No Chance could mean No Difficulty or Easy Difficulty. Even Medium Difficulty. No Chance just means that he cannot beat them. The only battle that I claimed would be No Difficulty was Zancrow vs Yomazu. I'm not twisting my words here.

I said previously in this thread that no chance = Zancrow > Yomazu mid diff. Then you said that no match = no diff:

Yomazu admitted that he is no match for Zancrow. In other words, Zancrow wins with No Difficulty.

It's ironic when you falsely claim that I am twisting your words when you are actually twisting mine.

Well, my definition doesn't say anything about that fight being comedic. That is your interpretation of my definition. Yes, Mirajane can be comparable to ISD Gajeel while still being a little weaker than LFD Natsu. After all, Gajeel needed help to beat Etherious Torafusa while Natsu was most likely on par with Etherious Tempesta. Plus, Tempesta is a little stronger than Torafusa by 100 points.

You literally said that a fight is "comedic" when there are jokes or when it is "drawn in a funny way". The Lucy + Natsu vs Franmalth fight satisfies your definition of a "comedic" fight in any interpretation. And you say that ISD Gajeel <= LFD Natsu when Torafusa > Tempesta by 400 points.

Well, I can't really concede when I never disagreed with that but Natsu clearly beats Freed because Freed doesn't stand a chance to Mirajane while Natsu would with difficulty.

You did dispute FF Mira > Natsu and it is shown in your past posts. Still no proof that Natsu beats Freed.

I also provided a panel where Gray overpowered her in CQC. Sure, Gray's moves didn't really affect Ultear but her attacks didn't affect him either. It was to the point where Ultear mentioned that this would be a physical battle. Once again, I can't imagine Gray losing that. Even if we can't say he wins, he'll at least be on par.

Ultear mentioning that it would be a physical battle meant that Gray's magic wouldn't work on her. Ultear was mocking Gray for continuing to fight even when his magic was supposedly useless and when Ultear outclasses him in every way. Gray's physical attacks did virtually nothing to Ultear.

You can't imagine Gray losing? I don't particularly care if you can't imagine something happening when it clearly did happen.

That first panel doesn't show Natsu one-shotted, plus it was comedy. You really think Erza and Natsu were full-power with the intent to kill each other right there? The second panel doesn't mean anything. You have to analyze the situation. Natsu used a lot of magic and energy on Totomaru. You can see injuries on Natsu before he even ran into Aria.On the other hand, Erza already had time to recover from the Jupiter Cannon attack. Additionally, Aria might have extremely low defense. This means Erza might not be able to one-shot Natsu as he has a higher defense to make up for his lower attack. It was clear that Aria stood still when Erza ran at him but he dodged Natsu's attacks which doesn't tell us anything.

So now this fight is "comedy" and Franmalth isn't? Erza was using comparable effort to Natsu and one-shotted him. Erza at full power vs Natsu at full power would also be a one-shot. The same way that Laxus, Gildarts, and Makarov could all one-shot Natsu if they really wanted to.

Natsu used a lot of magic and energy on Totomaru? Lol, he used a few weak attacks and gained MP back from eating Totomaru's fire. Not to mention Natsu's immune to fire. Erza was actually still injured from the Jupiter shot, to the point where Jose remarks that an uninjured Erza would give him a great fight. You want to prove that Aria had low defence? Not that you can...

No, Erza couldn't have defeated Cobra and Racer. Yes, she handled them. Doesn't mean she can beat them. Natsu ended up beating Cobra. Erza Scarlet fighting Erza Knightwalker doesn't say much as you have to account for Knightwalker's MP in that explosion too. So I don't see how Erza one-shots Natsu.

Erza handling Cobra and Racer at the same time means that she would beat either of them in a 1v1. Erza = Knightwalker in strength, so obviously Edolas Erza alone would blow up half the island. Which even Tartaros LFD Natsu has not done. Hence, Edolas Erza one-shots Edolas Natsu.

Natsu vs Cobra gave Natsu two extremely lucky breaks and still resulted in Natsu lying on the ground dying from Cobra's poison and Cobra about to kill him. Hence, Cobra > Natsu without Brain's and Wendy's interference. Racer also blitzed Natsu to unconsciousness, so Racer > Natsu.

Full potential is the highest amount of power a character can attain at a certain time. Maximum potential is the highest amount of power a character can attain during their whole lifetime. I don't understand what's so hard to understand.

Your definition is silly. The standard definition is that full potential = maximum potential = max power a character can ever get.

Fine. You can believe whatever you want. I can't prove it because it hasn't happend yet. But if Natsu ends up going DF at will in this arc, you lose this debate.

I'll keep you to your word.

I have no problem with that. Although you have to take into account that Aria already used up some of his magic but that doesn't matter. As for Jura and Orga, that fight was for comedy purposes. Would it be a one-shot? Yes, with Jura's strongest attack. With just a chop to Orga's head? No.

Aria already used up some of his magic... Yeah he used like an insignificant amount. Not to mention that Erza was still severely injured from Jupiter. And Jura vs Orga was "comedy"? This is ridiculous. Please elaborate on how this satisfies your definition for "comedic" fight.

She had to win that fight for Fairy Tail or they would never have won and been the Number 1 Guild in Fiore.

This makes everything in GMG arc "POF" and "Nakama Power"?

The point of this discussion is to debate whether Erza wins against Dimaria. The results were that TO Chelia beats Dimaria. Okay, if you want it to be Base Chelia and Base Wendy, then yes, they lose against Dimaria quite easily.

TO Chelia has no feats except against Dimaria, so the correct course of option would be to evaluate how well Dimaria performed against base Wendy/Chelia.

I'm just explaining to you why she used God Soul and her one-shot didn't happen since you seem not to understand it... Never said that this proves Dimaria beats Erza.

So why'd you bring up Ultear?

Against Base Wendy and Base Chelia? She never attacked them. They always initiated by jumping at her. She just blocked their attacks casually. If you're talking about DF Wendy and TO Chelia, then that is a different story. Both sides went on the offensive.

So why did Dimaria not attack base Wendy and Chelia? When she already tried to attack base Wendy at the start of Age Seal.

No, you were arguing why Dimaria didn't just one-shot Chelia and Wendy. I said that it was because of Ultear. If Time Magic was restricted in the fight against Erza, Dimaria wouldn't be surprised that her Time Magic doesn't work and so she wouldn't just use her sword to kill Erza. Again, Dimaria used God Soul because her Time Magic was rendered useless. She has no other option as that is pretty much her only magic left. Like I said, it was more of a surprise than anything.

Why didn't Dimaria one-shot Chelia and Wendy after Ultear explained her presence? Why did Dimaria use God Soul? You just said that Dimaria could supposedly one-shot Chelia and Wendy with sword alone, so she doesn't have to use God Soul or any magic at all. Please explain.

That is my belief from what I read in the manga. You have yours so I won't argue on this.

At this point, it's more like your wishful thinking. Because you don't have any evidence to back this up.

Btw, your dishonesty in this thread is becoming annoying. Please do not misrepresent what I have said or deny what you have said in previous posts. Otherwise I will not bother to respond to you and I will take this as my win.

 

[BluePegasus]

Di Maria will pierce Erza with her lazer beams.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Wendy's attack was a beam. Ezel cut up the attack before the entire beam hit him. Or are you saying that Ezel got hit by the entire attack before cutting it up? If you really think DF Wendy only beat Ezel due to hitting him into Face... I have nothing more to say to you.

You clearly didn't look at the panels or the anime... You cannot miss that scene unless ignorant of even looking at the facts right in front of you. Nobody ever asked you to say anything to me.

And where does Ankseram's energy come from? Hmm?

From Anhkseram himself. I already said that.

First off, Tempesta was a mid-tier demon gate. Second, Gray being on par with Tempesta means DeS Gray (no adv.) = LFD Natsu < DF Natsu.

Tempesta is one of the higher-tier Demons besides Silver, who doesn't really count as he is not a demon, and Kyōka. When did I deny that Gray without Slayer Advantage is equal to LFD Natsu?

Laxus didn't even show up in Avatar Arc. So by your logic Wendy and Chelia improved more than Laxus did... DF Wendy got stomped by Dimaria.

Yet you've already admitted that fighting fodders doesn't improve combat strength. Wendy and Chelia fighting Orochi Fodders is irrelevant.

Exactly, Laxus didn't show up. So it is unknown whether he trained. Meanwhile, Erza showed up and didn't seem like she trained that much.

Fighting fodders doesn't improve combat strength but using your magic still does. Besides, the fact Chelia and Wendy fought the before, we don't know whether they were the same ones or even stronger ones. It doesn't matter because they were still active and did something.

MP =/= Overall Power. I have already shown that MP = Magical Power =/= Physical Power. Overall Power = MP + Physical Power =/= MP. Two people with the same amount of MP can have different amounts of Physical Power and thus different Overall Power. Sylph Labyrinth is not weak when they gave SO Natsu, Lucy, and Wendy trouble and would likely defeat BoS Natsu, Lucy, and Wendy.

This is Fairy Tail. The essence of this series is literally about magic. Do you know why Edolas was in such a dilemma? Because they're magic was removed. They all still had physical strength. Did it matter? No, they're useless without magic as they can't do anything. I've stated my case. MP pretty much defines the strength of each individual in Fairy Tail.

If you had actually read my list you would see that I said

meaning Ajeel > Dimaria > Bluenote >= Wendy/Chelia. Trying to misrepresent what I say will not win you this argument. I've already shown many times that Ajeel > Dimaria in physical stats, and I am obviously using base Wendy and Chelia to compare them.

I did read your list. My bad that you expect me to be able to somehow figure out an unclear list. Okay, so you rank Dimaria above Bluenote and Ajeel above Bluenote. It still doesn't prove anything about Ajeel and Dimaria. Using Base Wendy and Chelia is not reliable evidence especially since they never fought Ajeel.

It doesn't matter because as I have already said, using Erza to gauge Ajeel to gauge Erza is circular argument.



So what. This could just mean that Erza is fast.

Okay... Erza being fast is still not instantaneous so Ajeel had some time to be able to compose himself. He obviously was critically injured...

"The strongest and fastest non-mage in Fairy Tail is weaker than the weakest mage in Fairy Tail." This is probably your sixth lie so far in this thread.

Spoiler

Here you have non-mages overpowering mages. You just disproved your own argument.

Overpowering doesn't mean anything. Defeating your opponent is what counts as there are many fights in Fairy Tail in which one was overwhelmed but ended up winning. If you count overwhelmed as weaker than Fairy Tail would be weaker than most enemies they've fought so far...

Except that Gray got trashed in their physical confrontations.

Not really. He was somewhat winning towards the end.

I said previously in this thread that no chance = Zancrow > Yomazu mid diff. Then you said that no match = no diff:

What? In that comparison, I clearly stated Zancrow in both sentences. I didn't even mention any of the other 7 Kin of Purgatory. Plus, I never said that "No Chance" is "No Difficulty". That only applies to Zancrow. Yes, he beats Yomazu with No Difficulty. Kain and Meredy? No, although it won't be a no difficulty fight, they still beat him fairly easily despite the fact that Yomazu still has no chance against them.

You literally said that a fight is "comedic" when there are jokes or when it is "drawn in a funny way". The Lucy + Natsu vs Franmalth fight satisfies your definition of a "comedic" fight in any interpretation. And you say that ISD Gajeel <= LFD Natsu when Torafusa > Tempesta by 400 points.

According to you, Torafusa is ahead by 400 points. Not me.

You did dispute FF Mira > Natsu and it is shown in your past posts. Still no proof that Natsu beats Freed.

When did I dispute that? I only disagreed when you said Freed is on par with Natsu, if not stronger. Mirajane is very strong and shouldn't be lumped into the same category as Freed. Mirajane is not an S-Class for nothing. Meanwhile, what is Freed? Laxus' guard?

Ultear mentioning that it would be a physical battle meant that Gray's magic wouldn't work on her. Ultear was mocking Gray for continuing to fight even when his magic was supposedly useless and when Ultear outclasses him in every way. Gray's physical attacks did virtually nothing to Ultear.

You can't imagine Gray losing? I don't particularly care if you can't imagine something happening when it clearly did happen.

Like Ultear's physical attacks did something to Gray? Come on, there was never even a hint that Gray was losing that fight. I can't imagine it because Gray has fought other opponents who are stronger than Ultear, physically. I thought you claimed to be an expert at physical stats since you tried lecturing me earlier about it? Gray never lost. If you say it did happen, then I don't know where you have been.

So now this fight is "comedy" and Franmalth isn't? Erza was using comparable effort to Natsu and one-shotted him. Erza at full power vs Natsu at full power would also be a one-shot. The same way that Laxus, Gildarts, and Makarov could all one-shot Natsu if they really wanted to.

You really think Erza could have killed Natsu in that panel? Or was it just for jokes? Just like Laxus destroying Natsu in one-hit. Was that comedy? Yes. In a real battle, Natsu wouldn't lose like that. Imagine if Lucy is held captive by Erza or Laxus. Would Natsu get one-shotted? Or would he fight to his death and manage to win? You have to know differences between fights. Franmalth was obviously a fight that the intent was to kill. Nothing funny there. Of course there is always comic/drama relief. That is different from a comedic fight. Gildarts may be the only one who could even come close to one-shotting Natsu. Nobody else.

Natsu used a lot of magic and energy on Totomaru? Lol, he used a few weak attacks and gained MP back from eating Totomaru's fire. Not to mention Natsu's immune to fire. Erza was actually still injured from the Jupiter shot, to the point where Jose remarks that an uninjured Erza would give him a great fight. You want to prove that Aria had low defence? Not that you can...

Natsu still had injuries on him while Erza's was not visible. Considering that Aria made a cheap move on Makarov and never got hit afterwards, I can see him having low defense and being more like an assassin-type.

Erza handling Cobra and Racer at the same time means that she would beat either of them in a 1v1. Erza = Knightwalker in strength, so obviously Edolas Erza alone would blow up half the island. Which even Tartaros LFD Natsu has not done. Hence, Edolas Erza one-shots Edolas Natsu.

Just because Erza Scarlet and Erza Knightwalker are somewhat equal in strength, it doesn't mean Natsu is the same as his Edolas counterpart. In Edolas, they use weapons and each weapon has different amount of magic power. The one that Knightwalker used was comparable to Erza's MP which is why they were quite even. On the other hand, Natsu Dragion's weapon was weak. Natsu Dragneel definitely has more MP than that. Do you think Mystogan is on the same level as Jellal?

Natsu vs Cobra gave Natsu two extremely lucky breaks and still resulted in Natsu lying on the ground dying from Cobra's poison and Cobra about to kill him. Hence, Cobra > Natsu without Brain's and Wendy's interference. Racer also blitzed Natsu to unconsciousness, so Racer > Natsu.

Natsu still defeated Cobra. It doesn't matter about what happened in between. Even if Natsu was about to die from Cobra and his poison, Natsu still defeated Cobra in a one on one match. You can say Natsu had two extremely lucky breaks, I don't care. But Racer blitzing Natsu into unconsciousness doesn't count. Everyone was unconscious at the end which is why Oración Seis escaped.

Your definition is silly. The standard definition is that full potential = maximum potential = max power a character can ever get.

So is DF Natsu in Tower of Heaven Arc his prime? After all, that was Natsu's strongest form at the time.

Aria already used up some of his magic... Yeah he used like an insignificant amount. Not to mention that Erza was still severely injured from Jupiter. And Jura vs Orga was "comedy"? This is ridiculous. Please elaborate on how this satisfies your definition for "comedic" fight.

Watch the anime. Or, better yet, look at the context of it in the manga. You need to get your humor straight. Either you have a dry sense of humor and you just don't know what comedy is. I totally acknowledged Orga losing that fight. In fact, it would be Easy-Medium Difficulty if it was a full on fight... But a head to the head and Orga is down? Please, that is absurd considering his feats of him overpowering his opponents and his MPF score compared to Jura's. Hiro Mashima most likely used that scene to speed things up. In a physical fight, Orga wouldn't lose that easily. In a fight with magic, Jura would probably destroy Orga with minimum difficulty if he went all out from the beginning. This fight is very similar to Laxus destroying Natsu and Gajeel running away due to fear.

This makes everything in GMG arc "POF" and "Nakama Power"?

No, because the other fights were realistic and legitimate. Some of them even lost. While Erza is strong, one cannot deny that taking out two opponents who are arguably the strongest of their guild has to have some PoF, Nakama Power, or Plot-Induced Feats incorporated into their matches.

TO Chelia has no feats except against Dimaria, so the correct course of option would be to evaluate how well Dimaria performed against base Wendy/Chelia.

No feats? TO Chelia utterly destroyed Dimaria. That is why we don't see Dimaria up and running. To evaluate how Dimaria fared against Base Wendy/Chelia is just you denying it.

So why'd you bring up Ultear?

Because you asked ridiculous questions like how come Dimaria couldn't one-shot Wendy/Chelia or why she used God Soul against them.

So why did Dimaria not attack base Wendy and Chelia? When she already tried to attack base Wendy at the start of Age Seal.

Because she wanted to play around with them before then? It was obvious. Dimaria only became serious when she was about to one-shot Wendy but Ultear interfered. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

Why didn't Dimaria one-shot Chelia and Wendy after Ultear explained her presence? Why did Dimaria use God Soul? You just said that Dimaria could supposedly one-shot Chelia and Wendy with sword alone, so she doesn't have to use God Soul or any magic at all. Please explain.

I never said Dimaria could one-shot Chelia and Wendy with her sword aIone... Every single time I said that Dimaria could one-shot or slice Wendy and Chelia in half, I was talking about Time Magic. I even stated it. Why was I talking about Time Magic when it was restricted in this fight? Because you started it. Here is how it came about:

• You started talking about how Erza beats Chelia with more ease than Dimaria.
• I said that Erza would have a similar fate against Dimaria if she was against TO Chelia.
• You stated that Erza's sword strikes would have more affect on Base Wendy/Chelia than Dimaria's sword strikes did.
• I countered by saying that Dimaria never used sword strikes on them in Base Form except the scene with Time Magic.
• From then on, we were talking about two separate topics.
• You kept asking why Dimaria couldn't one-shot Wendy/Chelia and why she used God Soul.
• I said because of Ultear and her Time Magic.
• Apparently, according to you, at some point, you began talking about without Time Magic.
• Meanwhile, I said Dimaria could defeat Wendy/Chelia with Time Magic but resorted to God Soul because Ultear nullified it.
• I guess you took that as me saying that Dimaria one-shots them without Time Magic...

Anyways, I'll explain what I mean. Dimaria needed to use God Soul to defeat Wendy and Chelia. I never denied that. That is her only other magic besides Time Magic which was nullified. Therefore, her sword is pretty much useless without Time Magic. The only time I said Dimaria could kill them with a sword easily was with Time Magic.

Now, with God Soul, how would Dimaria fare against Base Wendy/Chelia? She would defeat them very easily. Why didn't she? Because Ultear made a deal and was about to give Wendy or Chelia Third Origin. Afterwards, Wendy immediately went Dragon Force to stall time, thinking that she'd get the Third Origin. Apparently, she ended up losing still while Chelia saves her because she was the one who actually got Third Origin.

At this point, it's more like your wishful thinking. Because you don't have any evidence to back this up.

Btw, your dishonesty in this thread is becoming annoying. Please do not misrepresent what I have said or deny what you have said in previous posts. Otherwise I will not bother to respond to you and I will take this as my win.

Then take this as your win. I never stopped you. I just disagree with you. If all you want is to win this argument, then you win. But don't start asking me to concede. I'm here to correct your posts and to defend myself from people twisting my words like what you are doing. There are some things that are subjective like this battle but others are very obvious and cannot be denied because they were already proven. By denying it, you're just giving false information and using it for your own benefit.

 

[Axiomus]

Gray vs Natsu
X784 Laxus = Silver
X784 Natsu (Laxus powered) = X791 Gray (Silver powered)
X791 Natsu (base) >= X791 Gray (base)
X791 Natsu (Lightning mode) >> X791 Gray (base)
X791 Natsu (Lightning mode) < X791 Gray (Silver powered)
X791 Natsu (Dragon Force) > X791 (Silver powered)
X792 Natsu (base) > X792 Gray (Base)
X792 Natsu (base) >= X792 Gray (Demon Force)
X792 Natsu (Dragon King) > X792 Gray (Demon Force)
X792 Natsu (Igneel powered) >>>[Oneshot]>>> X792 Gray (Demon Force)

This is with no slayer advantage. With Slayer advantage, then X791 Gray (Silver powered) is stronger than X791 Natsu (Dragon Force) in terms of dealing damage to demons.

Erza vs Dimaria
I believe Nakagami Starlight would be sufficient in taking down Dimaria. Dimaria never stuck out as one of the stronger Spriggans when it comes to outright fighting. I have Dimaria as the lowest Spriggan when it comes to a brawl, with only maybe Jacob being weaker (might be proven wrong next chapter). I certainly don't have her on Wahl or Serena's level when it comes to straight up combat. Since the rules are negating Dimaria's best advantage, I'll give Erza the advantage. I'm not sure I'll give her the win though. This seems too even for me to call.