Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[T25]

Nobody hates Eli. She’s not a polarizing character. She’s a generic female battle shonen manga protagonist that loves the MC and whines about love and peace all the time.
There’s nothing wrong with that.

What people hate is this constant frothing at the mouth to make her out to be some sort of god on the battlefield.

People saying they don’t agree with that is not hating on her character.

I do not agree that no one hates her. Regardless, my issue is the degradation of her character and potential power. Your statements about her are not of hate but are notably cynical and are a subtly degrading. I do not care all that much about who you like and who you don’t but to use that as rational to strip credit is illogical.

The key is keeping it within reasonable means.

Zel is 60K with no mark, and hypothetically should be stronger than Chandler/Cusack as the third highest ranking demon behind Mel/Daddy. And Cusack serves him and supports him as king. It stands to reason he wouldn’t if Zel was weaker. It is reasonable to assume he can reach 100K+.

Mel is 142K with Assault Mode. And was specifically stated to be able to reach at least 50% of daddy’s power if he trained. That was stated.

Merlin had two 30K+ commandments startled by her presence. And even Zeldris was on guard against her. It is reasonable to assume she’s fairly powerful.

This is logical when it comes to giving numerical value the only outlier in these examples is Merlin as she is in a similar situation to Eli as PLs have been only given once for them as well as adequate knowledge of their past is equally unknown. Yet Merlin seems to be respected far more. At least here anyway. The difference between the two is rep. Merlin has displayed very little when it comes to the higher level opponents but is commended for defeating two opponents of the lower tier and who put up no resistance because of her rep and not her power as they had not truly panicked until they knew who she was.

Tell me how it’s reasonale to assume Eli is 100K+ when she’s consistently failed against any demon like 50K or above, and has absolutely zero statements about being the strongest goddess, successor to the SD, threatening the demons, or otherwise?

They didn’t even know who she was when they met her the first time.

As you are aware of her character you should be able to conclude that it is at the very least logical for someome who’s resist acts of violence, and was able to not be forced into such situations frequently, to not be well known in an environment she had presumably little participation in. Based on that alone it is impossible to use such statements to substantiate a claim of her being 100k+. That does not mean that she isn’t tho. The real issue is the absolutism placed on arguments. All of our claims are merely claims until proven.

Tell me what you think the implications are then, because Eli’s light actually attacked Hendrickson and he recovered from it just fine. It accomplished nothing against him. Seeing as every Real] four winged goddess is an archangel( and could easily defeat hendrickson’s 5000K power level at the time), I hope you aren’t trying to say she displayed the power of a real four winged goddess, and then a real 8 winged goddess.

She wouldn’t have needed help if Ludo is 100K+ and can endure several blows from as a mere four winged goddess then.

Her goddess days were her peak.

She had four.

The wings are real. She did not ungrow four wings, and she’s not going to secretly grow back four wings.

And before someone mentions her now, she still does not have any wings. She is human now. The wings are fake. You can see them disappear and reappear constantly. She does not grow them back.

She is the same rank as Ludo and Sariel except she isn’t a warrior, but heals and purifies instead.

Its fine to be curious and hopeful she’ll be badass and strong in the future.

But a lot of people are talking about her character as of now, and as of now she isn’t impressive at all. She’s failed against anyone above 50k repeatedly.

I make no claims to her power no matter what I think. All I was saying was that I am extremely curious as to why the number of wings drawn was drawn. A manga is visual medium therefore, especially in a panel that large, it portrayed some sort of significance. Why is it that you did not question Merlin’s prowess at that time. But repeatedly assent that Eli has always failed and have not credited her for keeping to people at bay multiple times more powerful and resistant then Merlin’s opponents. What I mean to say is that you have a completely different tone towards merlins abilities than to Eli’s which I don’t quite understand

 

[Raiyan]

One thing is bothering Me...
We got confirmation that Mel can reach DK's power lvl by training himself but He doesn't have that much time left then WTF you have been doing all this 3000 years .

 

[T25]

I'm pretty sure the mods would delete any posts that promoted or made light of rape on this thread. Elizabeth being kidnapped isn't rape. If we mock her for getting kidnapped, that isn't rape either. I mean I always thought it was funny when a character like princess peach got kidnaped by Bowser in Mario. I don't think that means that I promote rape


You can still be a fan of the character and think that she is a pretty "trashy" fighter. There's more too her than just fighting.


No, I'm not curious because as I stated in the past Nakaba has drawn her with wings of light. If you're asking why they all look the same, it's because Nakaba just didn't put a lot of detail into the drawing. It's something that happens in comics and manga from both western and eastern audiences. If you look at every chapter he's drawn you'll notice that some characters look like their details are ambiguous. For example in chapter 272 Nakaba drew Tarmiel with 2 sets of wings instead of 3. It's not a mistake, it's just the art style. So the fact that he didn't differentiate Elizabeth's real wings from the light wings doesn't shock me because sometimes all the details just won't be drawn. If her real wings are missing feathers in that one scene, then thats fine by me, it's just the comic/manga artsyle.

I do believe such comments have been deleted as I can no longer find them but I read those at the time they were posted which progressed for quite a while if I might add.
....I do not know if you truly do not understand what I am saying. I am very aware of what rape is. You have constantly and unintentionally, I would believe, degraded my intelligence on the matter. Do you honestly believe me to be ignorant of what the difference between kidnapping and rape is? ....The comments that had been made at the time were demeaning and degrading.

Ah you were referring to her combat ability being seen as trash? I see. In that case I do not disagree with your statement

As for you not being interested in why she was drawn the way she was is nothing more than selective interest. You pay attention to statements made by certain characters about certain characters, actions performed by certain character by certain characters. Know real issue with that but I don’t believe that makes you a good analyzer of a character you have little interest in. A giant panel he allocated a lot of time, space and detail into is not noted by his reader. Right? If you had said that you were not curious just because you are not that interested in Eli than that would be fair. But you have seen his effort and chalked it up to a mistake. I do not understand.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2018 ---

One thing is bothering Me...
We got confirmation that Mel can reach DK's power lvl by training himself but He doesn't have that much time left then WTF you have been doing all this 3000 years .

It seems the original Mel could. But he had lost that potential. You think that’s a logical reason?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

As for you not being interested in why she was drawn the way she was is nothing more than selective interest. You pay attention to statements made by certain characters about certain characters, actions performed by certain character by certain characters. Know real issue with that but I don’t believe that makes you a good analyzer of a character you have little interest in. A giant panel he allocated a lot of time, space and detail into is not noted by his reader. Right? If you had said that you were not curious just because you are not that interested in Eli than that would be fair. But you have seen his effort and chalked it up to a mistake. I do not understand.

It’s not selective interest though. It has happened to Elizabeth in the past and happens in every chapter. Not only that, but this also happens in other giant panels in the manga as well. Another example is how there was a whole panel devoted to Elizabeth holding Estarossa the dog, yet she’s only drawn with one set of wings.

Truth be told this is sounding a lot like an argument that I had with a person named Undina in the past. Oddly enough your speaking habits are also very similar to hers and I suppose it is coincidental that you brought up the exact same points as her which would be about art and the 8 wings and how you happened to know about comments from weeks ago.

But I digress large panels don’t mean that detail will be 100 percent present. In chapter 272 the demon king is even seen missing details in his armor and he by default commands large sections. It’s not a mistake, it’s just the art style of comics and manga. No where did I say it was a mistake. Also, it’s funny, but that last part that you said is also exactly what Undina said to me as well.

 

[T25]

It’s not selective interest though. It has happened to Elizabeth in the past and happens in every chapter. Not only that, but this also happens in other giant panels in the manga as well. Another example is how there was a whole panel devoted to Elizabeth holding Estarossa the dog, yet she’s only drawn with one set of wings.

Truth be told this is sounding a lot like an argument that I had with a person named Undina in the past. Oddly enough your speaking habits are also very similar to hers and I suppose it is coincidental that you brought up the exact same points as her which would be about art and the 8 wings and how you happened to know about comments from weeks ago.

But I digress large panels don’t mean that detail will be 100 percent present. In chapter 272 the demon king is even seen missing details in his armor and he by default commands large sections. It’s not a mistake, it’s just the art style of comics and manga. No where did I say it was a mistake. Also, it’s funny, but that last part that you said is also exactly what Undina said to me as well.

I do not reject that details on characterswere reduced. I do not disagree with the fact that it has happened multiple times. Those are for the most part small panels. I pulled up ch 265 and 273. In 265 both panels of her and the dog not including the close up of her face both sets are there. On 273 there is a small panel on the bottom right where her second pair is not visible. But you said big panel. Were you referring to that one or did I miss it it?

You are correct you did not in fact say it was a mistake, I apologize. You did say:

So the fact that he didn't differentiate Elizabeth's real wings from the light wings doesn't shock me because sometimes all the details just won't be drawn.

The only reason I spoke of eight wings is because there is an obvious illustration depicting 8 wings and another more subtle panel depicting the same before they no longer appeared. I am curious of why that is and what it could potentially mean. That was in no way in line with the fine details you are talking about like feathers. 8 is 8. And it was interesting

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I do not reject that details on characterswere reduced. I do not disagree with the fact that it has happened multiple times. Those are for the most part small panels. I pulled up ch 265 and 273. In 265 both panels of her and the dog not including the close up of her face both sets are there. On 273 there is a small panel on the bottom right where her second pair is not visible. But you said big panel. Were you referring to that one or did I miss it it?

You are correct you did not in fact say it was a mistake, I apologize. You did say:

The only reason I spoke of eight wings is because there is an obvious illustration depicting 8 wings and another more subtle panel depicting the same before they no longer appeared. I am curious of why that is and what it could potentially mean. That was in no way in line with the fine details you are talking about like feathers. 8 is 8. And it was interesting

Personally I just think it was her flaunting her power. Even in part 1 it happened when she had no control over it. As for the mangapages it doesn’t really matter whether they are big or small. It can happen to all charaxters. I would find it weird that he would always draw her in a perfect manner while others don’t get that treatment. Even meliodas

 

[T25]

Personally I just think it was her flaunting her power. Even in part 1 it happened when she had no control over it. As for the mangapages it doesn’t really matter whether they are big or small. It can happen to all charaxters. I would find it weird that he would always draw her in a perfect manner while others don’t get that treatment. Even meliodas

Flaunting and Eli dont really go together don’t you think? And I don’t know if she can flaunt a power she had little control activating? As for large panels they are stuff the artist desires to portray (flaunt seems a good word) and wants you to notice I would believe as I do the same.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Flaunting and Eli dont really go together don’t you think? And I don’t know if she can flaunt a power she had little control activating? As for large panels they are stuff the artist desires to portray (flaunt seems a good word) and wants you to notice I would believe as I do the same.

It doesn’t have to be her doing it by her own command, it’s probably just the way her power works. Even since part one she’s had light flaunt around her without her control.

As for the large panels they don’t always have to be so detailed. Like I said with the demon king, his armor lacked details even though he was basically center page.

 

[T25]

It doesn’t have to be her doing it by her own command, it’s probably just the way her power works. Even since part one she’s had light flaunt around her without her control.

As for the large panels they don’t always have to be so detailed. Like I said with the demon king, his armor lacked details even though he was basically center page.

I don’t think flaunt is the right word tho but whatever.
Large panels do not have to be very detailed they are a focus. Question is,what are they focused on. The DK is all black tho and he’s big ain’t nobody wanna draw that. He is not the best comparison to use but your points still proven .

 

[sobreno]

We do know the context tho lol?

Elizabeth was fighting against the Gods.

That completely and straight away refutes your idea and notion of Elizabeth being this ''perfect princess that will never fight''.



Thanks for proving my word even further.

She had no choice.

There was no option for pacifism.

And because of that she was willing to fight.



Don't change the topic of discussion.

The discussion was whether or not Elizabeth ''would fight'' or not.

The answer is: She does fight if it's the last option, and there is no other alternative. As proven by the Gods battle and how she had to (in a sense) fight against the Indura's.

Now, since we have our answer, and you can't refute it, you try to change the topic of discussion (as usual) in a way to demean Elizabeth and put her down.





Biggest lie of the century.

Sobreno has hate for her.

All I see is non-sense when he argues against her.

''Meliodas lover can't be powerful!''

''She's a princess who can only be saved!''

''I hope she dies!!''

''Her only purpose is to be Meliodas wife and nothing more!''

Now across the months I've been on this forum and argued against @sobreno, these are the most memorable quotes or opinions he's had of her.

So to me, a pretty big supporter of Elizabeth, it does look like he does hate her.



Say this to @sobreno in order to dismiss his ''Elizabeth is a perfect pacifist princess that will never attempt to fight'' claim since he doesn't listen to me, no matter what I show or tell him.

Nakaba could literally display this quote as incorrect in a Q & A but he would still find a way to defy it since he's arguing against me. So you tell him that this claim is incorrect (Good luck )

Nope, we don't know the details lmao.

Lol fighting, I don't call that " fighting ", I call that " getting toyed and fodderizzed ".

I didn't change the subject, you are the one who is trying to push your narrative on this character, I said that she is the antithesis of a fighter and the manga proved it from start to finish.

You are the one who is trying to wank her as usual, I am only stating what she truly is.

This is really pathetic, I don't hate her, I hate her wanker and mindless fanboys's actions toward her ( like you for example ).
I stated that I don't hate her as a character already but it seems that you are a good to twist everything to suit your stance.

 

[Gojo Satoru]

Nope, we don't know the details lmao.

Lol fighting, I don't call that " fighting ", I call that " getting toyed and fodderizzed ".

I didn't change the subject, you are the one who is trying to push your narrative on this character, I said that she is the antithesis of a fighter and the manga proved it from start to finish.

You are the one who is trying to wank her as usual, I am only stating what she truly is.

This is really pathetic, I don't hate her, I hate her wanker and mindless fanboys's actions toward her ( like you for example ).
I stated that I don't hate her as a character already but it seems that you are a good to twist everything to suit your stance.

Well it's the two gods of the entire series so of course they would be fodderrized but it's still fighting is it not.

Yes it's true she is a pacifist because she hates fighting and violence and rathers to focus on healing and talk no jutsu and what not but when the situation calls for it she has shown herself capable of using it.
EXAMPLES:
1)When Estarossa claims he was gonna kill Derrieri and claim her to himself she quickly responded with an Ark no more conversation.
2)When Meliodas was grabbing on to her by force at that point since she wasn't allowing it she responded with a literal Bitch Slap()

 

[T25]

Nope, we don't know the details lmao.

Lol fighting, I don't call that " fighting ", I call that " getting toyed and fodderizzed ".

I didn't change the subject, you are the one who is trying to push your narrative on this character, I said that she is the antithesis of a fighter and the manga proved it from start to finish.

You are the one who is trying to wank her as usual, I am only stating what she truly is.

This is really pathetic, I don't hate her, I hate her wanker and mindless fanboys's actions toward her ( like you for example ).
I stated that I don't hate her as a character already but it seems that you are a good to twist everything to suit your stance.

Sobreno do you think Elizabeth has any ability to use magic to attack or defend herself?
Oh has Wild ever fought the DK?

 

[Gojo Satoru]

Also I'm not purposely trying to shift the focus on Eli(yes I am lol sometimes I can't believe how she causes so much arguments).

But let's look at Sariel and Tarmiel.
Without their graces activated Estarossa tanked them and overwhelmed their ass and when they activated the grace they bodied him.

But it was a different story when Estarossa absorb the 2nd C and his Pl flew to 88K.If you notice he was actually stronger than them individually.When he attack Sariel he busted through the wind and broke every bone in Sariel's Body and he had used his darkness to stop Tarmiel from transforming and proceeded to whoop his ass as well.After Sariel attacked with the Slicing Wind it cut Rosa but he was gonna regenerated so it took the combined effort of Tarmiel attacking fast before he finished regenerating to beat him.

It shows you that individually he would have bodied them with the 88K so I'm thinking their power levels are like 80k flat.

 

[sobreno]

Sobreno do you think Elizabeth has any ability to use magic to attack or defend herself?
Oh has Wild ever fought the DK?

Probably Ark, like any other Goddesses, but about her defense? I don't see any defensive technique from her at all.

Wild? Well, he is the toy of the DK in the Purgatory, so obviously, he isn't taken seriously at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 5, 2018 ---

Well it's the two gods of the entire series so of course they would be fodderrized but it's still fighting is it not.

Yes it's true she is a pacifist because she hates fighting and violence and rathers to focus on healing and talk no jutsu and what not but when the situation calls for it she has shown herself capable of using it.
EXAMPLES:
1)When Estarossa claims he was gonna kill Derrieri and claim her to himself she quickly responded with an Ark no more conversation.
2)When Meliodas was grabbing on to her by force at that point since she wasn't allowing it she responded with a literal Bitch Slap()

When you get fodderized, I don't call that " fighting ", I call that a " massacre " lol.

Fighting is when you put up a fight, not when you get destroyed like a fodder.

Nope because she didn't do shit to continue, on the contrary lol.
1) She responded because she thought that he would take Derrierie for her commandment, when he comes back, she let herself being taken as an hostage without putting a single fight at the very least lmao.

2) More like Meliodas allowed her to hit him, you are joking if you call that scene: " a fight scene " lmao. She would be dead against Chandler's cheek if the others didn't come in time, Chandler was almost there.

It is easy and you can't meet at what I am asking you to do, show me Elizabeth fighting on a one vs one against a single opponent, without anyone coming to stop her or support her or saving her.

 

[T25]

Probably Ark, like any other Goddesses, but about her defense? I don't see any defensive technique from her at all.

Wild? Well, he is the toy of the DK in the Purgatory, so obviously, he isn't taken seriously at all.

I think you have many value and considerable points. However with Eli I feel you are horribly biased in that arguments you apply for other characters are not in anyway applicable to Eli. Do you think this is the case at all? Of course that is not to say that there are no horribly biased arguments in her favor but I want to know what you think of her yourself, unrelated to how her fans see her, and what role you think she’ll play in the future and if you even believe her to be important to the story.

 

[sobreno]

I think you have many value and considerable points. However with Eli I feel you are horribly biased in that arguments you apply for other characters are not in anyway applicable to Eli. Do you think this is the case at all? Of course that is not to say that there are no horribly biased arguments in her favor but I want to know what you think of her yourself, unrelated to how her fans see her, and what role you think she’ll play in the future and if you even believe her to be important to the story.

Because she didn't use that ability to destroy her opponent, she never fought seriously, she prefer talking than destroying her enemy like 99% of the characters of the show.

It is not applicable because unlike her, they are true fighters. Her role is being the " princess ".

She is important in the story because she is the driving force of the MC, he is doing all that shit for her, even becoming DK is for her lol.
On the other side, another " strongest " character want her as his woman. And they will fight for " her " again lmao.

She is actually playing the damsel in distress, putting King, Gowther, Hawk and the others Archangels in danger, judging by the title of the next chapter.

 

[T25]

Because she didn't use that ability to destroy her opponent, she never fought seriously, she prefer talking than destroying her enemy like 99% of the characters of the show.

It is not applicable because unlike her, they are true fighters. Her role is being the " princess ".

She is important in the story because she is the driving force of the MC, he is doing all that shit for her, even becoming DK is for her lol.
On the other side, another " strongest " character want her as his woman. And they will fight for " her " again lmao.

She is actually playing the damsel in distress, putting King, Gowther, Hawk and the others Archangels in danger, judging by the title of the next chapter.

I cannot say that I completely agree with this analysis. What exactly is the role of a princess? A princess is a female born to a monarch or royal. It is not a definitive occupation it is a title. Just as the term heir. The only role such a title bears is the responsibility given to them by the parents and their own sense of duty. In other words no different than any other person living in essence.

We all try to use action as the most important evidence to validate claims. Yet with Eli much of your evidence for your claims towards her stems from her name despite her actions.

You said her importance in the story is just to be the driving force for the MC and an item to create conflict. Doesn’t that strip agency from her? Mel is doing what he is doing for her and himself. Why isn’t her goals and wishes any important to the story? The curse they have is a result of both of their actions and is a curse each. It is not just Eli that has it and Mel is trying to save her.

“Playing the damsel in distress” is not the correct way to describe her actions. She made a choice given an ultimatum. It is different. There have indeed been points where she was a damsel in distress. The current situation isn’t one of them I believe. You said “playing” however she had not asked for help nor to be saved. To state that Eli put king and them in danger is nothing but ignorant. Estorassa displayed his threat to them all and Eli used his state of mind in regards to her to remove him from them. It was they that formed up to go after them. Had she stayed there would have been a fight presumably and the fates of the many people there would have been up in the air. But they are not dead. Why?

Do not justify your claim by using a title, that’s meaning you do not know, of a chapter you have not read. I thought “Piercing Holy Sword” was brilliant.

 

[sobreno]

Sobreno I cannot say that I completely agree with this analysis. What exactly is the role of a princess? A princess is a female born to a monarch or royal. It is not a definitive occupation it is a title. Just as the term heir. The only role such a title bears is the responsibility given to them by the parents and their own sense of duty. In other words no different than any other person living in essence.

We all try to use action as the most important evidence to validate claims. Yet with Eli much of your evidence for your claims towards her stems from her name despite her actions.

You said her importance in the story is just to be the driving force for the MC and an item to create conflict. Doesn’t that strip agency from her? Mel is doing what he is doing for her and himself. Why isn’t her goals and wishes any important to the story? The curse they have is a result of both of their actions and is a curse each. It is not just Eli that has it and Mel is trying to save her.

“Playing the damsel in distress” is not the correct way to describe her actions. She made a choice given an ultimatum. It is different. There have indeed been points where she was a damsel in distress. The current situation isn’t one of them I believe. You said “playing” however she had not asked for help nor to be saved. To state that Eli put king and them in danger is nothing but ignorant. Estorassa displayed his threat to them all and Eli used his state of mind in regards to her to remove him from them. It was they that formed up to go after them. Had she stayed there would have been a fight presumably and the fates of the many people there would have been up in the air. But they are not dead. Why?

Do not justify your claim by using a title, that’s meaning you do not know, of a chapter you have not read. I thought “Piercing Holy Sword” was brilliant.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 5, 2018 ---

I cannot say that I completely agree with this analysis. What exactly is the role of a princess? A princess is a female born to a monarch or royal. It is not a definitive occupation it is a title. Just as the term heir. The only role such a title bears is the responsibility given to them by the parents and their own sense of duty. In other words no different than any other person living in essence.

We all try to use action as the most important evidence to validate claims. Yet with Eli much of your evidence for your claims towards her stems from her name despite her actions.

You said her importance in the story is just to be the driving force for the MC and an item to create conflict. Doesn’t that strip agency from her? Mel is doing what he is doing for her and himself. Why isn’t her goals and wishes any important to the story? The curse they have is a result of both of their actions and is a curse each. It is not just Eli that has it and Mel is trying to save her.

“Playing the damsel in distress” is not the correct way to describe her actions. She made a choice given an ultimatum. It is different. There have indeed been points where she was a damsel in distress. The current situation isn’t one of them I believe. You said “playing” however she had not asked for help nor to be saved. To state that Eli put king and them in danger is nothing but ignorant. Estorassa displayed his threat to them all and Eli used his state of mind in regards to her to remove him from them. It was they that formed up to go after them. Had she stayed there would have been a fight presumably and the fates of the many people there would have been up in the air. But they are not dead. Why?

Do not justify your claim by using a title, that’s meaning you do not know, of a chapter you have not read. I thought “Piercing Holy Sword” was brilliant.

Like I said, the manga portrayed her like that from chapter 1 up until now. My point is that she isn't portrayed as a fighter lol, but as a princess.

Nope, he is doing everything for her, like he wish to be DK by his own lmao. He clearly stated it to Zeldoris.
Her goal and wishes aren't important for an interesting twist and story because she wish to be happy like any girl in love.
Meliodas's goal creates challenge and suffering, her goal is to avoid that by moving toward a happy ending, hence why Meliodas's goal is more interesting and less " fairy tail " like for the majority of readers.

She is still the damsel in distress because an entire team go to save her, you are literally igoring the context here.
Obviously, when I said " playing ", I was talking that Nakaba gave her that role again, she " play " again the damsel in distress that need to be saved.
I said, " putting them in danger ", obviously thanks to the plot armor, they will not die.
What chapter I didn't read?

 

[Gojo Satoru]

Let's just wait for an Elizabeth 1v1 before we continue estimating her

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 5, 2018 ---

Now to start even more controversy
Mael's power level time??

 

[Demonspeed]

Also I'm not purposely trying to shift the focus on Eli(yes I am lol sometimes I can't believe how she causes so much arguments).

But let's look at Sariel and Tarmiel.
Without their graces activated Estarossa tanked them and overwhelmed their ass and when they activated the grace they bodied him.

But it was a different story when Estarossa absorb the 2nd C and his Pl flew to 88K.If you notice he was actually stronger than them individually.When he attack Sariel he busted through the wind and broke every bone in Sariel's Body and he had used his darkness to stop Tarmiel from transforming and proceeded to whoop his ass as well.After Sariel attacked with the Slicing Wind it cut Rosa but he was gonna regenerated so it took the combined effort of Tarmiel attacking fast before he finished regenerating to beat him.

It shows you that individually he would have bodied them with the 88K so I'm thinking their power levels are like 80k flat.

When he was stronger than them, they were not at full power because they were in their host. Then they powered up, getting closer to their real form and overwhelmed him. Even their Arks could hurt him in his 3C form.

He was not stronger than them individually with 2C he said it himself. He broke Sariel's barrier but he got terrible injuries for that, Tarmiel did the same to him. I am not saying they can't be just at 80K. You don't need a higher PL to be stronger and 88K is very close to 80K. But the Archangels were stronger.